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Unread 18 Jul 2007, 23:50   #301
Deffeh
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

i didnt and it really ****ing annoyed me but i read it over and over again and i got it and now i feel good.


Premiership predictions thread will be made in about 2 weeks, just before the community shield.
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Unread 18 Jul 2007, 23:56   #302
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

It's always a good feeling when you get it and can laugh along with others and laugh at those who don't get it.

Premiership prediction \o/
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 00:58   #303
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

my understanding of the Tevez situation was that he was contracted to West Ham, with what amounted to a 100% sell-on clause for Joorabchian. Since he's still under contract, WHU have no obligation so far as I can see to sell the player to United/give his registration rights back to Joorabchian etc etc, and the EPL are holding to this. Man United, with their customary approach to the sport, are ignoring this completely because it's inconcievable that a team could honestly attempt to not sell a player they want to them.

Tevez to United would require West Ham to cave and let him leave, which they have no obligation to do and which is unlikely to happen. Joorabchian would need to pay compensation out of the arse for it to happen I suspect.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 04:53   #304
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Oh.

A little silly of Joorabchian to make such a clause. Did he, for a moment ever, think he'd be getting any money at all? If it's up to West Ham to sell, why on earth would they ever sell if all the money goes to Joor?

ps. and why on earth are West Ham waiting for an offer if they're never going to get any of it?
pps. oh, you're right. was. wham must have terminated all those deals, by now.

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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 07:13   #305
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
pps. oh, you're right. was. wham must have terminated all those deals, by now.
I must use this excuse with the student loans people.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 08:04   #306
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
I must use this excuse with the student loans people.
If you had borrowed the money from the EPL and paid a nominal percentage of the balance (i.e. the 5.5M fin^H^H^H administrative fee), then I think you would be on to a winner!
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:49   #307
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
West Ham don't own tevez, hence why every football fan bar west ham fans and furball want to see West Ham in their rightful place. In the Championship.
I'm finding the entire situation incredibly amusing actually - West Ham have got away with it completely and the Premier League looks like an arse. A win-win situation, one might say.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 12:59   #308
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Does anyone actually think Tevez will move to Man Utd?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 13:31   #309
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Yeah he will, but the Premier League will end up looking like an idiot.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 14:04   #310
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Does anyone actually think Tevez will move to Man Utd?
Does anyone see tevez staying at west ham united for three more years?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 15:21   #311
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
my understanding of the Tevez situation was that he was contracted to West Ham, with what amounted to a 100% sell-on clause for Joorabchian. Since he's still under contract, WHU have no obligation so far as I can see to sell the player to United/give his registration rights back to Joorabchian etc etc, and the EPL are holding to this. Man United, with their customary approach to the sport, are ignoring this completely because it's inconcievable that a team could honestly attempt to not sell a player they want to them.

Tevez to United would require West Ham to cave and let him leave, which they have no obligation to do and which is unlikely to happen. Joorabchian would need to pay compensation out of the arse for it to happen I suspect.
My understanding of it though is the contract was in fact a 1 year loan with WHU. The remaining years of the contract were little more than options and required them to pay Joorabchian £30mill to buy the player. They did not take up the option (cos the FPL would have had to kick them out of the league if they did as that would haven't meant they hadn't ripped the contract up). Now because you cant just cancel a contract, both sides have to agree to it he's technically a free agent in my eyes as WHU haven't fulfilled the clause in the contract to keep him at the club.

It was exactly why mascherano could be sold when he was because they informed Joorabchian that they were not going to take up the option for him and gave Joorabchian permission to sell him on

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I know it's a game, and given that I generally play with random players (and in any case, most of my games go on for sufficiently long that my entire squad becomes regens) I don't think that any problems in that regard really affect me.

This discussion is about basing real life evaluations of players on FM/etc alone, which has the flaws that I pointed out above (that had only previously been implicit in the discussion).

On top of that, I said that it was "hard", not that they were bad at it. All you're doing is agreeing with me in a condescending fashion.
I Don't personally think there's anything worse about using FM as your basis of how good a player is than using what anyone else says about a player. If anything for many players it may be better than so called experts as the FM scouts are often club specific and have seen alot more of the player than some none specific.

In fact unless the players playing for a club you watch week in week out FM is probably overall better than even your own opinion as alot of players people have views on are players they haven't really seen too much of.

FM is obviously not some fountain of knowledge as its peoples opinions and it doesn't take in the external influences that can be the difference between an ok lower level player and a world class one BUT its a fairly well informed opinion on the whole
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 15:25   #312
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

It's fairly clear really that west ham are ****ed. They either unilaterally terminated a contract which probably leaves them open to being sued for oh, about thirty million I guess, or they still don't own him and they lied to the Premier League. Is there an alternative?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 15:50   #313
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's fairly clear really that west ham are ****ed. They either unilaterally terminated a contract which probably leaves them open to being sued for oh, about thirty million I guess, or they still don't own him and they lied to the Premier League. Is there an alternative?
I think WHU will probably hold their hands up sometime after the start of the season and before transfer window closes and say "We accept that while we tore the contract up the other party didn't agree so the contract was still in existence" the EPL will then give them a point penalty for the season as they cant kick them out of the league(10 points probably, maybe another 10 or so 'suspended')

Tevez will then join ManU and everyone will ultimately be happy as Joorabchian will get the money he wants, United will get their player and WHU will still be in the premier league with a point penalty which will hinder them but which they will feel they can overcome
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 16:28   #314
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

In that case.

Sheffield United won't be happy.

And the Premier League will hear about it.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 16:37   #315
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

why should anyone want this to be resolved in any other manner than joorabchian being lynched from a tree?

3rd party agreements are not the way we want football to go, not at all. I'll be horrified if he receives a transfer fee.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 16:50   #316
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

why the **** would it matter if sheffield united aren't happy?

the punishment was just that - a punishment for west ham. it wasn't and shouldn't be a means for sheffield united to excuse being the worst team in the league all season and if a court had taken seriously any appeals made by them I'd be absolutely dismayed.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 17:28   #317
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
why the **** would it matter if sheffield united aren't happy?
I think he means that Sheffield United would attempt to take legal action again against the Premier League and West Ham - for damages rather than to be restored to the Premier League.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 17:41   #318
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's fairly clear really that west ham are ****ed. They either unilaterally terminated a contract which probably leaves them open to being sued for oh, about thirty million I guess, or they still don't own him and they lied to the Premier League. Is there an alternative?
I'm not sure what law the contract came under, but if it was English law then Joorabchian can decide to let the original contract continue - West Ham can't just say that the contract doesn't exist anymore. Damages....god knows, but you're in the right area for what Joorabchian will claim. They undoubtedly lied to the Premier League in saying that they could unilaterally terminate.

Having said that, I do recall some past cases regarding illegal contracts that were void ab initio. I'm not sure whether or not that could apply to this situation, but given that the Premier League bans third-party contracts then it's a possiblity.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 18:01   #319
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Surely then the original agreement west ham bought him under would have been invalid and he'd still be joorabchian's player?
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 18:15   #320
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Surely then the original agreement west ham bought him under would have been invalid and he'd still be joorabchian's player?
Yeah - I didn't say it'd work out well for West Ham
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 20:55   #321
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
why the **** would it matter if sheffield united aren't happy?
If West Ham United get docked 10 points for something they could and should have docked for 10 points already the previous season, I don't think Sheffield United will sit quiet and eat it. If the new season has begun already, they'll want compensations (what did they earlier mention, 50m£?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
They undoubtedly lied to the Premier League in saying that they could unilaterally terminate.
Yeah. It's not like Joorabchian'd been "Oh, k, have my 30m£ player, I don't mind".
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:11   #322
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

What's funny though, is that Faubert's off for six. It must be karma.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 21:24   #323
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
If West Ham United get docked 10 points for something they could and should have docked for 10 points already the previous season, I don't think Sheffield United will sit quiet and eat it. If the new season has begun already, they'll want compensations (what did they earlier mention, 50m£?).
And with this post I give up.


I don't really understand how many people need to say how many times that there was no precedent for a points deduction before people will shut up about it, and I don't feel like typing anything else into the abyss.
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Unread 19 Jul 2007, 22:08   #324
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

there, there, phang. that downfall parody makes it all worthwhile.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 02:04   #325
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

surely if they get points deducted for it this season instead of last then shef utd have a good case for arguing that they should have got the points deducted last season? [/devilsadvocate]
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 05:07   #326
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
surely if they get points deducted for it this season instead of last then shef utd have a good case for arguing that they should have got the points deducted last season? [/devilsadvocate]
I thought this was obvious, so I didn't write it. Next time when I'm typing the issue into abyss, I'll probably have to ensure that even Phang understands that while nothing with the Tevez case has changed (except the mutd approach to sign) there's no more valid grounds for a points deduction now or in the coming that there was last round.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 20 Jul 2007 at 05:14.
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 09:41   #327
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
I don't really understand how many people need to say how many times that there was no precedent for a points deduction before people will shut up about it, and I don't feel like typing anything else into the abyss.
I think the crux of the problem lies here: the EPL seem to make up the penalties for these sorts of offenses as they go.

I daresay if MUFC* had done the deal with MSI, the penalties would have included decapitation, excommunication, a 30 point deduction and a fine which was actually proportional to the offense.

Its precisely the fact that they work like this, that WHU are in the mess that they are in now. If the EPL had any sane sort of process for dealing with stuff like this, the matter would be cleared up, but sadly, WHU would probably have had to suffer a far worse punishment than they have done so far anyway!

*I am being biased and partisan, but I suspect you could substitute Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool here too...
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Unread 20 Jul 2007, 10:16   #328
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
I think the crux of the problem lies here: the EPL seem to make up the penalties for these sorts of offenses as they go.
Yeah, probably makes some sense. The thing is, too, that because the EPL already denied a points reduction on West Ham last season, they can't do it for next season over the same case without Sheffield United being treaten ackward (so it doesn't sound likely that a points deduction, as wakey suggested, would ever occur).
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 00:28   #329
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Can we please stop saying EPL.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 07:02   #330
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

They're foreign. They can't help it.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 08:59   #331
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Can we please stop saying EPL.
I call it the prem otherwise the people who invented football in 92 get confused.

Barclays League Division 1 me up.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 12:28   #332
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Can we please stop saying EPL.
Okay good, I thought I missed something.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 13:55   #333
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

even if its only a 1% chance, if i was an arsenal fan i'd be cacking it hearing Mr Ecclestone's name in conjunction with a takeover.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 13:58   #334
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Maybe the next British Grand Prix could be held at the emirates?
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 14:05   #335
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
even if its only a 1% chance, if i was an arsenal fan i'd be cacking it hearing Mr Ecclestone's name in conjunction with a takeover.
Ecclestone can **** off, I'd rather have Kroenke than that crook.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 14:51   #336
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Robbie Fowler moves to Cardiff. Good signing for the Bluebireds.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 15:46   #337
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

either that or a complete disaster; im not sure fowler is even a lower half of the championship striker these days.
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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 16:39   #338
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Ecclestone could only buy Arsenal if the Kroenke/Dein consortium, now holding in excess of 30% of all Arsenal shares, sold to him. This seems unlikely and would be close to an impossiblity should they declare a formal takeover within the week as is expected. Unless Ecclestone wants to get into a bidding war for a club already vastly over-valued at £650 million, of course. That said, Sports Investing is the exciting new alternative to the long-term, blue chip portfolio of the bored investor. But even with that I can't see someone paying £700-800 million for any football club particularly someone quoted as saying:
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I'll buy anything if it's cheap enough.
What it does do is put pressure on the Arsenal board to sell to someone (since their investment now so valuable) and better the devil himself than Bernie Ecclestone.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 00:39   #339
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Ecclestone could only buy Arsenal if the Kroenke/Dein consortium, now holding in excess of 30% of all Arsenal shares, sold to him.
Dude, I don't know where you got that source from but Kroenke only has just over 12% and Dein about 14.5%.

If they, combined, had over 30%, they can, by takeover rules, to launch a formal bid for the Gunners.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 06:07   #340
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Lansdowne Partners (American Hedge Fund Company) hold 4% and are apparently pledged to Kroenke/Dein. One imagines this is simply because a takeover increases the value of their shares dramatically. This company actually bought shares in Arsenal in 2005 and increased that stake very recently to the amount required. This gives Kroenke the option to announce a takeover at any time he chooses which may be next week but most likely not. By dividing the holdings amongst several people in this way he can't be accused of trying to circumvent stock market rules should he decide to wait for a meeting with other large shareholders, most notably Fiszman. Infact over 50% of the shares are held by Kroenke, Dein and Fiszman alone and the hedge fund option would only be exercised in the event of a hostile takeover. This is very unlikely as purchasing the loyalty of any current board members would almost certainly prove prohibitively expensive.

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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 12:38   #341
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Purchasing the loyalty of just about anyone on the Arsenal board will be impossible. The board members are 'old money' - they don't need more money.


Fiszman is the only wild card in the whole thing: Dein is a known entity, Kroenke, and Lansdowne were no news to me. It's Fiszman's 25% that controls the destiny of the club.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 14:02   #342
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

So, Eggert has now said Carlos Carlos will probably be leaving soon.

Who gets the £££?
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 15:52   #343
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Well it's come down to what FIFA think and they aren't renowned for their love of agents and Joorabachim is a slimeball even as agents go. My feeling is that they rule against him solely to discourage these kind of 3rd party player rentals in the future. Whether that would leave Joorabachim grounds for legal recourse to seek compensation remains to be seen.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 16:54   #344
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Arsenal continue to ship out the old guard and West Ham keep shipping in over-rated and have-beens.

Funnily enough, it's the same story!
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 18:57   #345
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Well it's come down to what FIFA think and they aren't renowned for their love of agents and Joorabachim is a slimeball even as agents go. My feeling is that they rule against him solely to discourage these kind of 3rd party player rentals in the future. Whether that would leave Joorabachim grounds for legal recourse to seek compensation remains to be seen.
those aren't the noises they're making; FIFA don't have a position on third-party transfers and have pointed this out.


BBC Sport seems to be indicating it's a sell-on clause in the contract, btw. I'm not sure why Tevez expects to be given a move, but it seems to me the only way he could get anything without Wham caving would be for FIFA to make the "buy out your contract" rules even more damaging and make Tevez give Wham £5-6m or whatever to become a free agent.

If Tevez gets to go to Man U on an MSI loan there's going to be trouble.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 21:00   #346
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
If Tevez gets to go to Man U on an MSI loan there's going to be trouble.
but surely this is the whole point, the hammers ripped up those third party contracts *apparently* without the consent of joormawatsit, which is why he is claiming that the money should go to him, if FIA rule he can go to manutd, then surely they would have to rule that his contract still belonged to MSI rather than Wham, which is when both Wham and the FA become ****ed royally
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 21:09   #347
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Isn't this likely to go to court whichever way FIFA rules though, them not being a legal body and all?
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 22:18   #348
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Isn't this likely to go to court whichever way FIFA rules though, them not being a legal body and all?
Both parties have agreed to do what FIFA (as arbitraitor) tells them to, so it's all ok baby
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Unread 24 Jul 2007, 07:24   #349
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

Quote:
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Both parties have agreed to do what FIFA (as arbitraitor) tells them to, so it's all ok baby
Now that the local Football Association at the tiny island you're all packed into has decided that the descision is for FIFA to make I'd really expect Tevez to sign for MU in the near future. He's definately out of my FF team if he's sticking with Hammers.
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Unread 24 Jul 2007, 10:36   #350
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Re: [Football] Summer Transfers

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Now that the local Football Association at the tiny island you're all packed into has decided that the descision is for FIFA to make I'd really expect Tevez to sign for MU in the near future. He's definately out of my FF team if he's sticking with Hammers.
The most important thing in all of this is Carlos Tevez's wish to play for Man United. Since FIFA are being brought in to enable the transfer (since the clubs couldn't agree), there's no chance of him staying at West Ham now.
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