leave stealing to the ziks?

[teknik]

So I was one of many who felt all races shouldnt have ships that steal. As this round draws to a close (maybe thats just wishful thinking ) I think its worth reevaluating the stealing situation.

First of all let me say I think the races have faired pretty well this round and while cath does seem superior, theres no dead donkey race which leaves people frustrated and demanding mid round stat changes, so nice work appocco.

My beef with everyone having stealing is three fold. Firstly, I dont like the extra element of luck added to the game. The Xan who was lucky enough to catch his target sleeping and steal a few thousand spiders is much more effective than the Xan whos target managed to wake up in time and run fleet. The Terr who luckily managed to bag a few hundred lancers is infinately stronger than the Terr who attacked Xans all round and had no lancers to show for it.

Secondly I think that stealing for Caths is much harder to balance. Caths get to fire first and get the very effective EMP, but pay a heavy price for this with having limited kill ships. Giving Caths access to very effective kill ships such as arrows and sentinels is bad and difficult to balance in my opinion, and contributes to them being the most powerful race this round.

Finally, every race having kill ships is simply too exploitable. There is no way that the PA and multihunter team can catch all the people who do a one off exchange of ships, I keep hearing rumors and reports of Caths and Xans exchanging spiders for sentinels and such like. The importance of spiders for Xans (for example) is simply too great to allow this to happen. While with only Ziks stealing farming is still a problem, I believe it is easier to monitor and catch cheaters.

As far as I can see the main reason that stealing was brought in for all races was to bring Ziks back into line with the other races. I feel this round has proven that all races dont need stealing, as a quick glance at the race stats show that Zik is hardly as emphatic as it was at this stage last round. Stopping Zik frig fleets from being able to steal frigs and the exclusion of eta 7 stealer fleets, along with the slight adjust of the ziks firepower/armor (if i remember correctly anyway) has brought Zik back into line with the other races.

I realise this thread isnt really worded like a suggestion so:

leave stealing to the Ziks!

theres my suggestion

[furball]

I agree. I would take away stealing for the other three races, but leave in the targetting restraints for stealers propsed by Jester.

Originally Posted by Jester

Basing this on the discussions from the other thread, I think these are sound guidelines.

Constraints
| 1. A stealing ship must never be 0-loss defense.
| 2. A stealing ship must never target its own class.
| 3. Stealer kill-ratio efficiency should be topped at 75%.

Race specifics
| 1. Each race should have a few ships of each 3 types, some of which should be cloaked. Numbers should vary depending on flavor.
| 2. Zik should have at least one, possibly two classes they can only hit with stealers.
| 3. Each of a race's attack options should represent a unique variation, requiring unique defense combinations.
| 4. Each race should have one flakking attack option (for early game) and one 'kill off/freeze the defenders' attack option (for late game).
| 5. The exception should be Cathaar who should have two of the latter.
| 6. The exception should be Terran who should have two of the former.

Roiding
| 1. Value ratio to stop an attack should be between 1.5x and 2.25x the attacking value.
| 2. The exception should be EMP, which should be between 0.8x and 1.2x.
| 3. Terran should be represented at the weaker end of the scale defensively.
| 4. Xandathrii should be represented at the stronger end of the scale defensively.

Structure Killers
| 1. Cost should be approximately equal to the cheapest other ship of the same class.
| 2. Armor should be about a third of the cheapest other ship of the same class. This need not be exact.
| 3. Damage should be very low, at most 15 damage efficiency.
| 4. Structure Killers should be present in the flakking attack option for each race.
| 5. Structure Killers should be present in the purely EMP option for attacking with Cath.

Flavor
| 1. Terran should represent high armor, low damage, bad initiative.
| 2. Cathaar should represent low armor, high damage good initiative for EMP, and high armor, low damage, bad initiative for normal.
| 3. Cathaar normal ships should never be better than the equivalent in another race.
| 4. Cathaar EMP should never be worse than the equivalent in another race.
| 5. Xandathrii should represent low armor, high damage, good initiative.
| 6. Xandathrii should never have lower damage than the equivalent in another race.
| 7. Xandathrii should never have high armor than the equivarent in another race, except non-Cathaar EMP ships.
| 8. Zikonian should be represented by bad ships, but good stealing options.
| 9. Zikonian stealers should never be worse than the equivalent in another race.

I'd remove the cloaking/EMP for all races, but the rest remains sound.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by teknik

Secondly I think that stealing for Caths is much harder to balance. Caths get to fire first and get the very effective EMP, but pay a heavy price for this with having limited kill ships. Giving Caths access to very effective kill ships such as arrows and sentinels is bad and difficult to balance in my opinion, and contributes to them being the most powerful race this round.

Finally, every race having kill ships is simply too exploitable. There is no way that the PA and multihunter team can catch all the people who do a one off exchange of ships, I keep hearing rumors and reports of Caths and Xans exchanging spiders for sentinels and such like. The importance of spiders for Xans (for example) is simply too great to allow this to happen. While with only Ziks stealing farming is still a problem, I believe it is easier to monitor and catch cheaters.

The #1 in the universe (cath) has fewer stolen ships than i do (i.e. a few hundred) just to let you know.

And why is every race having steal ships, harder to catch cheats than if it were only one?

[teknik]

Originally Posted by sniborp

And why is every race having steal ships, harder to catch cheats than if it were only one?

apart from having less planets to watch (unless the whole universe went Zik) its not easier to catch. But a one off steal of, for example, a lot of spiders doesnt increase the strength of a Zik as it does a Xan. for a Zik to really get strong or become hard to attack he would have to farm a lot more ships, which is easier to detect.

furball: I havent seen that post before, could you direct me to where it came from?

[furball]

Originally Posted by teknik

furball: I havent seen that post before, could you direct me to where it came from?

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=185406

[Ron7684]

I dont agree with the suggestion as the ship stealing for non-ziks was limited to not capture podding ships, so it doesnt really increasy the unknows variable of a game.

Also, all the races have 2 podding fleets, lets call them fleet 1 and fleet 2. For terrans, its DE and BS. For all races, fleet 2 steals ships for fleet 1. So its the same type of fleets, just with some extra ships. And this means that having a fleet made of stolen ships just isnt that useful. As a cath this round, i have found xans are the easiest to take out with a CR fleet. EMP their PKs, and steal their sents and arrows. The problem with this is that Sents and Arrows do nothing useful. I have 10k sents sitting at home and am basically using them for a value increase and buffing my fleets up for people who cant scan me.

What im trying to say, is caths having the stealing ships does not improve the race at all. if anything, it makes it worse because we now have a 1 target CR fleet when attacking Xans. DE. So if anything its a setback, because it no longer lets us kill CO to help an attack partner.

So before i get any more off topic im going to summarise what i said. Ship stealing for all classes adds a minimal amount of change (element of luck, as teknik says) to the game. I do not know a lot about the other races stealing advantages as i did not play them this round. But it just changes it up a bit. A cat CO fleet cannot attack a Ter (main target) if he has stolen Lancers so it just makes the game a little more complicated and in-depth. Which is the reason that most people like PA in the first place.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Ron7684

So its the same type of fleets, just with some extra ships. And this means that having a fleet made of stolen ships just isnt that useful.

On the contrary, having more types in the same class means that you can target more classes with just the one class of ship. I'll take Xan as an example as its the most obvious. atm, Xans attack with FI and often need CO (either sents or arrows) to cover enemy FI or CO ships. This leaves them open to CO def as well as FI def. However, by stealing Harpies and Spiders, the Xan can use only FI to target everything they need, and Spiders are particularly important as they fire on Sents before the Sents fire - thus reducing their losses significantly. Wyvern are useful for plugging an obvious hole in the Terran's fleet - anti CO - with Lancers (if they can get any). etc etc.

The problem with this is that Sents and Arrows do nothing useful. I have 10k sents sitting at home and am basically using them for a value increase and buffing my fleets up for people who cant scan me.

Well, you arent making the most use of these then. the obvious thing to do with a Beetle/Sent/Arrow fleet is to defend against Xan FI incs (which you will do redicuous amounts of damage to), or indeed just go twat a Terran with your Vipers, but carry more CO along with (that you didnt have to build) to discourage defence with Spiders etc. Many Terrans have insufficient numbers of Lancers anyway - especially if you are willing to take losses (i know many caths feel it is their right to steal roids without loss, but remember you are loosing CO that you just stole anyway so it doesnt matter so much).

If you think they are useless, then you may not be using them to their full potential.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Ron7684

The problem with this is that Sents and Arrows do nothing useful. I have 10k sents sitting at home and am basically using them for a value increase and buffing my fleets up for people who cant scan me.

I completely disagree.

Take away those 10k sentinels, and I would happily attack you. Unless you have 20k+ beetles, in which case I would get a mate, and then attack you. For free.

Keep those 10k sentinels, and I'm going to steer well clear... I think that would make a distinct difference to your round, and to those who manage to steal sentinels.

[Appocomaster]

If we keep these sorts of stats, I can see sents being made Fi, which seems to be at the root of a lot of cath related problems :-)

[furball]

The problem isn't Cath related, it's Xan related too. Well, it's both.


Basically:
Sentinal = too strong.
Xans = good due to Sentinal being good
Xans = highly chosen due to Sentinal being good
Sentinal = best anti-Xan ship

Lots of Xans means lots of anti-Xan ships --> Xans suffer as a race overall.


Cath steal CO
Sentinal = CO
Cath CO fleet becomes stronger
Cath = even harder for FI Xans to attack - can't just flak past beetles.

[Appocomaster]

Yes, but moving Sentinal to Fi addresses all the above problems.
[ Sending Sents with the attack fleet becomes more necessary to deter Sent defence, meaning less Sents around to defend against Fi fleets, and Sents not being 0 loss def any more means more are probably needed. Also, Sents being Fi means they can't be stolen by Cathaar, meaning Cathaar are then more vunerable to Fi attacks again. This has a side effect of making Cathaar more likely to build Beetles, meaning there's less Cr around.]

Xan (and Zik) do have a problem with Fr being so weak. Dropping the Viper damage by 1 or 2 would help, and if the damage of the Bomber was increased it'd be more of a threat to Terran (although the Syrens would still be dangerous, retals certainly would be more possible vs any Drakes left at home). Maybe moving Clipper init to 6 is another possibility, although obviously Zik Fr hits smaller ships, and only the Viper hits back.
Upgrading the Peackeeper armour to ~60/65 might improve things too.

To be fair, the balance doesn't seem *too* bad between the races. Terran look weak on average due to being the "new" race that people choose as default, but they're starting to catch up with Cathaar in the top 10. Xan are the best race in may aspects on average, being the most defensive.

[furball]

I do agree with Sents being FI, that wasn't what I was contesting - my issue was over your phrase "cath related problems".


I've enjoyed this round's stats greatly, they've been excellent. However, having steadied the ship after Round 13/'the Cath problem', I'd take away stealing for the other 3 races. This is despite me being a great advocate of it at the beginning of the round (and I'm glad we did it). I just don't think it needs to be permanent.

[Appocomaster]

If we do "leave stealing to the ziks", then Terran would have to be modified at least - at the moment, their De fleet is decidedly lacking. Zik could then have a bit more freedom as to what ships go where, though.

[furball]

I feel a bit like Scrooge stealing Christmas, but I still think it's the right thing to do. This way you could change the Cutter (either its CO class or DE targetting), removing the Terran need for Lancers in their DE fleet.

Terran - DE/BS pods
Cath - CO/CR pods
Xan - FI/FR pods
Zik - CO/DE pods

That's how I'd shape things for next round Zik's second pod could be DE or BS, I don't really mind. However, one needs to match a Terran pod for balancing. As things stand, every race shares a pod class with another race, as well as having one of its own.

EDIT: Cath's first pod to remain as CO, not changed to FR. This negates my point where every race shares one pod class and has another as its own. However, this shouldn't be a problem. Cath incoming is theoretically the easiest to defend against due to its EMP nature, while Ziks need to be held back due to having exclusive stealing ships.

[Appocomaster]

Phoenixes also exist .
I think Zik would need both pod classes shared - it's meant to have slightly weaker ships than other races, but after stealing an overall stronger fleet. Having only one shared pod class means it's easier to add to that class than any other class (stealing by defending against it).

Also, I know that people don't like Cathaar having pod classes 2 ETAs apart, but I still don't see why.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Phoenixes also exist .

I knew I was missing something, I knew it. I just couldn't put my finger on it. Phoenixes back to targetting CO fs

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I think Zik would need both pod classes shared - it's meant to have slightly weaker ships than other races, but after stealing an overall stronger fleet. Having only one shared pod class means it's easier to add to that class than any other class (stealing by defending against it).

Good point. Perhaps make the ships that steal pod class A not be in pod class B, and vice versa. I think that'd work well in keeping Ziks under control.

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Also, I know that people don't like Cathaar having pod classes 2 ETAs apart, but I still don't see why.

My mistake, I meant to put CO. I'll edit the post to clear things up. I don't understand it either


EDIT: Appocomaster, I've written a little note on my previous post if you can check it out please

[Appocomaster]

seems fine :-)

[MAdnRisKy]

can I just say that for two reasons i'd not have the pods like that.

I'd go with terran DE BS <-- heck why not
Cath FR and CR. Keep the beetle as CO and encourage the cath to use them with the fr fleet. I've never known why cath should have a co fleet.
Xan Co FR. Yes co... they're closer to the fr fleet in size, makes it much easier to actually use that cloak and do some fakes as of the zik in rnd 12. You'll need to make the fr fleet work tho :/
Zik DE and CR/BS. i'd opt for the later but it is a complete copy of the terran race.

The important aspect is not having fi and co pods, because this brings problems. I'd direct you to the post jester once made on the subject but I can't find it. I'm sure he'd reiterate it if you ask him, he explained it much better than i could but his thoughts were certainly ones I agreed with.

[Ferretus]

The one problem with having Xans going up the ship classes is that good players will disguise their ships within the eta time, ie send a nasty kill fleet against the unsuspecting player. So xans must be either extremely limited or lose its cloaking.

[Ferretus]

Back to the point though. I always felt that having multiple race stealers was stupid, you'll probably find me moaning about it somewhere on these boards lol.

From a zik point of view its made life so much easier as once you get stealing other races 'stealers' your fleet can just grow and grow :-)

[furball]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

can I just say that for two reasons i'd not have the pods like that.

I'd go with terran DE BS <-- heck why not
Cath FR and CR. Keep the beetle as CO and encourage the cath to use them with the fr fleet. I've never known why cath should have a co fleet.
Xan Co FR. Yes co... they're closer to the fr fleet in size, makes it much easier to actually use that cloak and do some fakes as of the zik in rnd 12. You'll need to make the fr fleet work tho :/
Zik DE and CR/BS. i'd opt for the later but it is a complete copy of the terran race.

The important aspect is not having fi and co pods, because this brings problems. I'd direct you to the post jester once made on the subject but I can't find it. I'm sure he'd reiterate it if you ask him, he explained it much better than i could but his thoughts were certainly ones I agreed with.

Giving Xan pods in the classes 'next to each other' gives them too much strength in faking. You'd be looking at Round 8 all over again.

Cath - stick to a CO fleet. You'd need to completely re-design Cath to give them 2 FR ships, not including the Black Widow (which I assume would move back to DE class). I like the Viper as it is (a CO targetting FR), even if it needs to be toned down a bit.

The change in the Vsh to targetting FR was inspired, it made Beetles far more viable (depending on race selection next round, the Beetle may need to be toned down a tad - 1/2 points, that's all, ifCath are widely selected).


Xan roid with FI. Cath roid with CR. Terrans roid with DE (sometimes). We must stick to these things to maintain any kind of continuity in the game. Targetting may change (Roach, for example) but we cannot completely change the races on a whim.

Xans CAN do fakes with FI as FR, the only thing stopping them this round has been the proliferation of every type of ship due to every race stealing. A VGN member last round was particularly good at doing this


Ziks I would have as CO/DE, with most of their ships being in the CO/FR/DE classes - as they were when races were first introduced. I don't like the change to BS that this round has seen. With a strong FR class, they can make up varying fleet combos (CO/FR, FR/DE, CO/DE) to perplex DCs, while still being fleet scannable. Giving an unscannable race this range of fleet combos would just make me cry (and choose Xan for the first time in six rounds).

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by furball

Ziks I would have as CO/DE, with most of their ships being in the CO/FR/DE classes - as they were when races were first introduced. I don't like the change to BS that this round has seen. With a strong FR class, they can make up varying fleet combos (CO/FR, FR/DE, CO/DE) to perplex DCs, while still being fleet scannable. Giving an unscannable race this range of fleet combos would just make me cry (and choose Xan for the first time in six rounds).

Giving ziks co pods would be a bad idea imo. You couldn't have a zik roiding fleet without stealers and giving ziks eta 7 stealers would make them hugely overpowered as stealing would become a lot easier again.

I agree with making the sentinel a fighter, although I also thing that a number of other changes would need to be made to counter the increase in xan fi strength this would cause. Having sents as fi class would mean a lot of people would send them on attacks, greatly reducing the number of good quality anti-fi. This would leave only harpies and beetles as commonly available anti-fi and hence the xan fi fleet would become far too powerful. I haven't quite thought of a way to change this but maybe having the scorpion changed to being like the tarantula of round 13 would help a little towards this (although this then leaves cath a little vulnerable to co).

On the main topic of the thread I would probably agree that stealing should be left to the ziks. It was fun having it this round but, as people have said, made it too reliant on luck. Personally I missed 2 weeks of the round at about the time frigates were starting to be built. I am xan and because I missed this period when stealing spiders would have been at the easiest of any point in the round I have been slightly disadvantaged compared to those who were able to steal spiders. Also again as has been said cathaar being able to steal sentinels and arrowheads goes against the philosophy of the race. Cathaar should never be able to kill ships as effectively as they could this round.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Paddy

Giving ziks co pods would be a bad idea imo. You couldn't have a zik roiding fleet without stealers and giving ziks eta 7 stealers would make them hugely overpowered as stealing would become a lot easier again.

Hmm - Subversion in Zik CO/FI ships, stealing in FR+ ? Combined with certain measures to make sending red def far more difficult (targeting // hard-coding) it could work.

I'd be willing to give it a try, at least - particularly if others thought it would be a good idea.

It would give Ziks back their "uniqueness" as they are the only one with Subversion, AND stealing etc.

[furball]

No, I wouldn't bring back subversion.

Originally Posted by Paddy

Giving ziks co pods would be a bad idea imo. You couldn't have a zik roiding fleet without stealers and giving ziks eta 7 stealers would make them hugely overpowered as stealing would become a lot easier again.

Why does it have to have stealers, if their DE fleet is supposed to be their 'main' roiding fleet anyway? I agree on your point of having eta 7 stealers though.

[noah02]

I liked it when Terran had frigs due to the expensive destroyers and battleships it would be nice to have a slightly cheaper roiding fleet rather than 2 extrememly expensive ones.

[furball]

Yeah, I liked the Terran FR fleet too (Round 12, yeah?). Perhaps you could do this:

Terran: FR/BS
Cath: CO/CR
Xan: FI/FR
Zik: CO/DE

[Appocomaster]

But then Zik doesn't have anyone to share a De fleet with! So you're forced to make it Fr (giving Zik Co/Fr fleets again), or Bs (unless you want it to share BOTH its fleets with Cath).
We could just make Terran less expensive :P

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

But then Zik doesn't have anyone to share a De fleet with! So you're forced to make it Fr (giving Zik Co/Fr fleets again), or Bs (unless you want it to share BOTH its fleets with Cath).
We could just make Terran less expensive :P

But then you will have to make destroyers less effective and Tbh i dont care about ziks I only care about Terrans

[furball]

Well, I'd still stick to my original proposal and make Terran a tad cheaper.

[Ferretus]

Originally Posted by noah02

But then you will have to make destroyers less effective and Tbh i dont care about ziks I only care about Terrans

/me points to the title of the thread.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Ferretus

/me points to the title of the thread.

Its asking about leaving stealing to ziks only which includes every race as a whole coz we all steal atm so they wanting to take it away.

I like stealing as a terran maybe a research is in order to choose stealing for wyvern or not choose stealing for wyvern 2 different ship names ofc.

[Ferretus]

TBH

Another idea I was considering suggesting was to make Terran the true noob race and let that race have a sample of the other races abilities. IE

Have a cloaked ship (although I have no idea what use this will be), a ship that EMP's (but ensure its the only ship that can target that class from the Terran options) and a stealer ship.

Obviously this would require some research and effort, hence me not suggesting it before lol. The suggestion regarding ziks having a mix of subversion and stealers is interesting, perhaps replace its 'normal' ships with subverters. Would make them a far more interesting race to play.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Ferretus

Obviously this would require some research and effort, hence me not suggesting it before lol. The suggestion regarding ziks having a mix of subversion and stealers is interesting, perhaps replace its 'normal' ships with subverters. Would make them a far more interesting race to play.

They would be pretty shit though - needing incredible armour just to survive a battle. No ships would fire 'first' - keep in mind these would all be initiative 40+.

[Ferretus]

Of course not. If I remember right the subversion was a very high initiative.

/me scans through my old pa folder.

R12 was when subversion was in place and indeed its initiative was very high with having eg emp firing on 1s and 2s and sub firing on 2's and 3's, xans firing on 3+ and terrans on 4+

[Ferretus]

obviously this initiative score was in relation to the rest of the stats so I'm not suggesting make subversion fire on a 2 coz that would be silly with the 'slower' combat as it is. I would still have it fire after emp yet before normal with stealers firing on the 40s as per now.

[furball]

Sorry, my mistake. I'm still not keen on it though.


What would you do with subverted stealers? Sounds a tad abusable to me

[noah02]

Thought subversion was flawed coz you could defend urself and survive?
Stealing and subversion would mean you could steal ships to save urself by defendning ur own ships sorta thing But i Dunno I was Terran Back Then (duh no surprise ) and just despised xans and the millions of ships.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Ack, i wrote all of this then mysteriously my backspace button suddenly became a "back" button so i lost it all . The following is what i said from memory (heh)...

Originally Posted by furball

No, I wouldn't bring back subversion.

Why not? I have to admit, i've always quite liked Subversion (afaik i invented it), as i have always known how great ship stats with properly implemented subversion would be. But that aside, i think the only two problems with Subversion is Red Def (which i have addressed in my original post), and the fact that stealing is 'more fun'. By having Subversion for Zik FI/CO, this resolves the balance problems associated with having fast stealers (as obviously subversion isnt permanent), but also Ziks can still use their FR + to add other race's physiological and technological distinctiveness to their own (). So, Ziks regain some of their "uniqueness" (as no other races would have subversion) as well as their usual stealing capability and the associated benefits to tactics and strategy etc.

Anyway, back onto the pod distribution discussion. In my set of stats that were rejected in favour of Appoco's for this round, i had the following setup:
Terrans: DE/BA
Cathaar: CO/CR
Xandathrii: FI/FR
Zikonian: CO/DE

In this fashion, Ziks shared pods with both Cathaar and Terran, however the major problem (that wasnt tested to any sort of conclusion) is that both of those shared pods are the 'small' or light class for the respective race (ie, CO Caths instead of CR Caths). Now, potentially as the smaller class these ships could have been built in insufficient numbers (though the Cath CO fleet was prolly stronger than the CR fleet, heh), and thus could have caused some problems due to scarcity. Then again, that could have been a good thing.

But a later post in this thread got me thinking. Perhaps a setup such as:
Terran: FR/BA
Xandathrii: FI/DE
Cathaar: FR/CR
Zikonian: CO/DE
Xandathrii needs a workover, and changing its top pod class to a larger ship might help - as Xan FR as a race just doesnt seem to work for some reason. Changing Cath's light fleet from CO to FR means that there is now only a 1 ETA difference between the two (just like all the other races). Such a setup raises problems with Zik's CO fleet, though, as it doesnt have a corresponding fleet class to steal from - but this could be compensated with making it more independent, as (particularly with subversion) it could be the Zik's fallback point if stealing sufficient ships of the right type proves too problematic. But that's another thing entirely.

Also somewhere above, i think it was furbeh again, said that making Xan pods CO/FR would make them too powerful. However, if you remember waay back to the Dark Ages, you'll notice that the current Cloaking 'advantage' is naught but a mere distant shadow of its former self. By making Xans CO/FR, there would be alot more room for manouvre for fakes, which brings them into line with Terran DE/BA (CR), and most obviously Zik FR/DE/CR/BA. Presently, i think its quite simply wrong for the race with stealth to be the most obvious race to see what's incoming. Regardless of the examples that you can put forward, i just dont think that faking FR for FI is good enough or used frequently enough to make Xan's cloaking worthwhile.

I wonder what a Xan FI/CO pod class would be like - other than the obvious answer: FAST - if you arranged it such that Xan's majopr defensive ships were CR/BA (thus requiring all ship research), and their attacking ships were either FI or CO, that would make Xan's cloaking quite simply devastating. Quite likely to be too powerful, unfortunately, but it might be worth having a look at .

Anyway, i had something else to say but i;ve forgotten it now .

[noah02]

See keep this terran frigs going
War frigates for teh win

[noah02]

Maybe 1 subversion for the other races and stealing for ziks?

Edit: And 1 Subversion ship for zik also?

[furball]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Anyway, back onto the pod distribution discussion. In my set of stats that were rejected in favour of Appoco's for this round, i had the following setup:
Terrans: DE/BA
Cathaar: CO/CR
Xandathrii: FI/FR
Zikonian: CO/DE

Oi, I suggested exactly those earlier in the thread!

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

In this fashion, Ziks shared pods with both Cathaar and Terran, however the major problem (that wasnt tested to any sort of conclusion) is that both of those shared pods are the 'small' or light class for the respective race (ie, CO Caths instead of CR Caths). Now, potentially as the smaller class these ships could have been built in insufficient numbers (though the Cath CO fleet was prolly stronger than the CR fleet, heh), and thus could have caused some problems due to scarcity. Then again, that could have been a good thing.

Well, the smaller class usually has fewer ships supporting its pod, for example Cath CO (Beetle+Vipers) vs Cath CR (Roach+Tarantula+Scorpion). I don't think its much of a problem.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

But a later post in this thread got me thinking. Perhaps a setup such as:
Terran: FR/BA
Xandathrii: FI/DE
Cathaar: FR/CR
Zikonian: CO/DE
Xandathrii needs a workover, and changing its top pod class to a larger ship might help - as Xan FR as a race just doesnt seem to work for some reason. Changing Cath's light fleet from CO to FR means that there is now only a 1 ETA difference between the two (just like all the other races). Such a setup raises problems with Zik's CO fleet, though, as it doesnt have a corresponding fleet class to steal from - but this could be compensated with making it more independent, as (particularly with subversion) it could be the Zik's fallback point if stealing sufficient ships of the right type proves too problematic. But that's another thing entirely.

I see no reason why Xan FR can't work. Their problem this round has been that the Tzen is outclassed by the Vsh. This wasn't the case in Round 13, where Xans ran like little piggies with their tails between their legs whenever they saw Tzens coming. What caused the change? The introduction of stealing. There are two solutions to this: either get rid of stealing, or change Xan's stealing ship. See below for more on this.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Also somewhere above, i think it was furbeh again, said that making Xan pods CO/FR would make them too powerful. However, if you remember waay back to the Dark Ages, you'll notice that the current Cloaking 'advantage' is naught but a mere distant shadow of its former self. By making Xans CO/FR, there would be alot more room for manouvre for fakes, which brings them into line with Terran DE/BA (CR), and most obviously Zik FR/DE/CR/BA. Presently, i think its quite simply wrong for the race with stealth to be the most obvious race to see what's incoming. Regardless of the examples that you can put forward, i just dont think that faking FR for FI is good enough or used frequently enough to make Xan's cloaking worthwhile.

Oooh name-dropping <3

I just don't like the idea of Xans having CO/FR pods. In my mind, there are some entrenched things in PA ship stats - Terrans have DE pods, Cath have CR pods, Xans have FI pods. I'd work around those things as a starting point.

Simply, Xan's cloaking isn't worthwhile while they have so few options with their fleet. We need to construct their ship stats so that they can 'do things' with their ships, e.g. FI/DE combos (actually, not a bad idea this ). I agree with moving them to FI/DE rather than FI/FR if you don't want to change the Tzen...it just seems so pointless making a huge change (i.e. changing the pod class) when changing the Tzen will do.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I wonder what a Xan FI/CO pod class would be like - other than the obvious answer: FAST - if you arranged it such that Xan's majopr defensive ships were CR/BA (thus requiring all ship research), and their attacking ships were either FI or CO, that would make Xan's cloaking quite simply devastating. Quite likely to be too powerful, unfortunately, but it might be worth having a look at .

Well, dear readers, we were chatting about MSN on this. These were the stats I came up with.

Name		Class		Target		Type
Vsharrak	Fighter		Corvette	Normal
Pulsar		Fighter		Destroyer	Normal
Sentinel	Fighter		Fighter		Normal
Arrowhead	Corvette	Frigate		Normal
Bomber		Corvette	Battleship	Normal
Lancer		Destroyer	Corvette	Steal
Fireblade	Cruiser		Cruiser		Normal
Peacekeeper	Cruiser		Frigate		Normal
Dreadnought	Battleship	Corvette	Normal
Dagger		Fighter		Roids		Astropod
Vulture		Corvette	Roids		Astropod
Predator	Cruiser		Structures	Structure Killer

The key thing is that I've made the Lancer a stealer. Much better.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Anyway, i had something else to say but i;ve forgotten it now .

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by furball

Oi, I suggested exactly those earlier in the thread!

And i suggest those during the first round of beta (so bleh! ~~~) but either way it doesnt really matter now . (/me claims the moral high ground )

Well, the smaller class usually has fewer ships supporting its pod, for example Cath CO (Beetle+Vipers) vs Cath CR (Roach+Tarantula+Scorpion). I don't think its much of a problem.

Well, that's kinda what i was worried about really. The lack of quantity and the diversity of the units that the Ziks can steal to target to augment their fleet - if Ziks *really* need those ships to even attack (eg, Xans needing Spids this round), and they are scarce, then you;ve just managed to bugger a race in a single stroke. But if they arent important, then 1) why try and steal them? 2) kinda makes stealing pointless if you can do just as well by not stealing, and 3) if stealing is pointless, then there isnt much incentive to go zik and/or stealing wouldnt be as 'fun'. Anyway, having said that, restricting diversity could also be a good thing as much as a bad thing.

And who said that the smaller pod class had to have fewer types? I might want to experiment there .

I see no reason why Xan FR can't work.

I can; Syren. Vsh. Vipers. 'nuff said really .

Their problem this round has been that the Tzen is outclassed by the Vsh. This wasn't the case in Round 13, where Xans ran like little piggies with their tails between their legs whenever they saw Tzens coming. What caused the change? The introduction of stealing. There are two solutions to this: either get rid of stealing, or change Xan's stealing ship. See below for more on this.

The introduction of stealing had nothing to do with it. If you recall in R13, Vsh targeted CO not FR, and TBT had the wtfpwnage firepower of a fully fledged Xan ship instead of the pittance of a zik-wannabe stealer . The Vsh targeting CO was the main thing, though .

But Xan FR hasnt been any good since like R7 or 8, back when there was only the one pod class (a frigate). That's a long time between drinks - 9 or so rounds. I think Xan might need a fundamental change. Even shifting the pod to CR might be a better way to go - make them more Cath-like. At least, just because such a suggestion is radical doesnt mean it should be dismissed entirely, but indeed it doesnt mean it is an ideal solution, either :\

I just don't like the idea of Xans having CO/FR pods. In my mind, there are some entrenched things in PA ship stats - Terrans have DE pods, Cath have CR pods, Xans have FI pods. I'd work around those things as a starting point.

The thing about FI pods is that there is no-where else to go if you exclude CO :\. Terrans could cope with a change from DE to FR, or caths from CO to FR etc - but Xans i think would be screwed if they went from FI to BA; blundering around in battleships just wouldnt suit their hit-and-run style. Anyway, a moment ago did you just suggest a Terran FR pod not a DE one?

Simply, Xan's cloaking isn't worthwhile while they have so few options with their fleet.

Agreed. Perhaps one way to go about this is to make Xan follow the other races - their primary pod class steals their seconary - just that with Xans its backwards (ie FI stealing DE in the form of a Stealer Pulsar) - but that would make an ETA 7 stealer which is potentially too powerful (as mentioned earlier in this thread which sparked the whole Subversion thing again :\ ).

Xans are stuck between a rock and a hard place, shivering in their paper thin armour

Well, dear readers, we were chatting about MSN on this. These were the stats I came up with.

I didnt notice anything immediately worng with this suggestion (short of my normal misgivings about adjusting a race in isolation), but atm i am too tired to go through it in detail. I am willing, however, to run some calculations if you get to that stage mate . Whilst it does seem more elegant, Xan doesnt have a FI pod which means you;ve contradicted yourself twice in this single post!

Edit: indeed, my glance was so brief it appears that i completely missed the Dagger being a FI pod. Obviously, i shouldnt be doing ship stats this late in the day - or rather, this early in tomorrow. Or today. ffs, sleep for soveh

A wonderful lawyer in the making

Cheers mate. .

[furball]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Well, that's kinda what i was worried about really. The lack of quantity and the diversity of the units that the Ziks can steal to target to augment their fleet - if Ziks *really* need those ships to even attack (eg, Xans needing Spids this round), and they are scarce, then you;ve just managed to bugger a race in a single stroke. But if they arent important, then 1) why try and steal them? 2) kinda makes stealing pointless if you can do just as well by not stealing, and 3) if stealing is pointless, then there isnt much incentive to go zik and/or stealing wouldnt be as 'fun'. Anyway, having said that, restricting diversity could also be a good thing as much as a bad thing.

I must admit that I didn't really understand what you originally said:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie said earlier in the thread

Terrans: DE/BA
Cathaar: CO/CR
Xandathrii: FI/FR
Zikonian: CO/DE

In this fashion, Ziks shared pods with both Cathaar and Terran, however the major problem (that wasnt tested to any sort of conclusion) is that both of those shared pods are the 'small' or light class for the respective race (ie, CO Caths instead of CR Caths). Now, potentially as the smaller class these ships could have been built in insufficient numbers (though the Cath CO fleet was prolly stronger than the CR fleet, heh), and thus could have caused some problems due to scarcity. Then again, that could have been a good thing.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

And who said that the smaller pod class had to have fewer types? I might want to experiment there .

But then it would become the primary pod, not the secondary pod. Bigger/smaller really isn't the right word to use, considering Xans.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I can; Syren. Vsh. Vipers. 'nuff said really .

I sense some anger in you, Mr Rourke. Think happy thoughts.

Besides, you could fix that by a general re-distribution of targetting (Cath's Roach and Xan Fr/De). Make the Roach target FR and swap the Bomber and Peacekeeper. Voila.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

The introduction of stealing had nothing to do with it. If you recall in R13, Vsh targeted CO not FR, and TBT had the wtfpwnage firepower of a fully fledged Xan ship instead of the pittance of a zik-wannabe stealer . The Vsh targeting CO was the main thing, though .

I knew that when I posted. Sadly I forgot to reference to it, making me look like a complete idiot

I'll be more clear. In Round 13, the Tzen was over-powered since Xan FI could do nothing about it. Ziks who managed to steal enough of them were home and dry.

We now have the Vsh targetting FR (<3). So, a duel between the two would work quite well, much like a game of chicken. What I was trying to say was that changing the Vsh to target FR, AND wrecking the TBT, ruined the Xan FR fleet. Ok?

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

But Xan FR hasnt been any good since like R7 or 8, back when there was only the one pod class (a frigate). That's a long time between drinks - 9 or so rounds. I think Xan might need a fundamental change. Even shifting the pod to CR might be a better way to go - make them more Cath-like. At least, just because such a suggestion is radical doesnt mean it should be dismissed entirely, but indeed it doesnt mean it is an ideal solution, either :\

Xan FR on their own aren't especially great, but combined with DE they should be lethal. Especially with a revitalised Tzen.

As for a CR change, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo only begins to approach my reaction. If you must change them, do it to DE. But I'd keep it at FR and fix the FR instead.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

The think about FI pods is that there is no-where else to go if you exclude CO :\. Terrans could cope with a change from DE to FR, or caths from CO to FR etc - but Xans i think would be screwed if they went from FI to BA; blundering around in battleships just wouldnt suit their hit-and-run style. Anyway, a moment ago did you just suggest a Terran FR pod not a DE one?

As I said, I'd keep the FI pod in place and only move their secondary pod (the FR, as it stands).

As for my Terran FR/DE mix-up, I meant ships not pods, as in they will always have a Pegasus, DE class, targetting FI. I won't edit though

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Agreed. Perhaps one way to go about this is to make Xan follow the other races - their primary pod class steals their seconary - just that with Xans its backwards (ie FI stealing DE in the form of a Stealer Pulsar) - but that would make an ETA 7 stealer which is potentially too powerful (as mentioned earlier in this thread which sparked the whole Subversion thing again :\ ).

Xans are stuck between a rock and a hard place, shivering in their paper thin armour

Agreed? Agreed? What is this agreed?

As you saw in my stats, I'd make their Lancer steal CO. This would be good for the Xan CO fleet (which I made Xan's secondary roiding fleet, with only two escorting ships) and would give the Arrowhead more of a role. I agree that an ETA 7 stealer is too powerful.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I didnt notice anything immediately worng with this suggestion (short of my normal misgivings about adjusting a race in isolation), but atm i am too tired to go through it in detail. I am willing, however, to run some calculations if you get to that stage mate . Whilst it does seem more elegant, Xan doesnt have a FI pod which means you;ve contradicted yourself twice in this single post!

Edit: indeed, my glance was so brief it appears that i completely missed the Dagger being a FI pod. Obviously, i shouldnt be doing ship stats this late in the day - or rather, this early in tomorrow. Or today. ffs, sleep for soveh

No sleep for Soveh! Get R15 stats started now, kthxbye.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

A wonderful lawyer in the making

Cheers mate. .

Thanks

[Ultimate Newbie]

God, i cant believe i am still here replying to you Furball! - must.... sleep....

Originally Posted by furball

I must admit that I didn't really understand what you originally said:

Right. i'll try to be a little more simple for you mate - i mean, you are only a lawyer-in-training after all .

Zik CO fleet consisting of 1 escort and 1 pod. That escort targets one of the three classes that fire on it to a reasonable degree and shouldnt be a problem. Now, to reduce the instances of zero loss defence, Zik needs to steal Cath CO which happens to target both of the other classes. Assume that Zik CO fleet is buggered without Cath CO escorts. Now:

If the Cath CO fleet isnt popular in the general universe, then there wont be many of them to steal. Thus, you have alot of Ziks who are after too few Cath CO and thus you have alot of screwed Ziks as their CO fleet is not viable.

This is the quantity of targets problem.

Now, Zik DE fleet consisting of 1 escort and 1 pod. Four classes of enemy ship fire on DE. Assume that Terran DE target those classes. Then assume that a Terran Battleship targets lets say CR 1000 times better than the Terran DE, thus that particular type of Terran DE is virtually not built compared to the other DE. Assume that the Zik DE fleet is buggered if it cannot plug this gap in its targeting spectrum. If the Ziks in the general universe are unable to capture enough of that 'special' Terran DE, then they are buggered.

This is the lack of diversity problem.

Besides, you could fix that by a general re-distribution of targetting (Cath's Roach and Xan Fr/De). Make the Roach target FR and swap the Bomber and Peacekeeper. Voila.

Adjusting Roach targeting down to FR means that Roaches will stun a greater proportion of Peacekeepers than prior to the change, as Scarabs no longer provide the 'double flak' bonus that they did before - ie, Scarabs stun Roaches before they fire, and then get stunned back - which is obviously pretty useless for them, but if you consider that all those shots that would normally have landed on Scarabs are now landing solely on Peacekeepers, then the problem with doing that becomes more apparent. You;d have to drop the Scarab down to FR to keep that balance the same, then you;d have to look at all the other targeting both CR on FR, Fr on CR, other units on FR, other units on CR and so on etc that i cba doing right now.

This is why i hate doing things in isolation, because in the "real world" they arent isolated .

I knew that when I posted. Sadly I forgot to reference to it, making me look like a complete idiot

Dont worry about that mate - it didnt make you look like an idiot <3

We now have the Vsh targetting FR (<3). So, a duel between the two would work quite well, much like a game of chicken. What I was trying to say was that changing the Vsh to target FR, AND wrecking the TBT, ruined the Xan FR fleet. Ok?

Ok - though you'd have to check the Initiatives (i have an inkling that the Vsh fired before the TBT in R13, but i dont remember exactly and cba looking ). Games of chicken, though, can be quite dangerous - as with Ziks there are plenty of (more highly armoured) frigates that would have to be taken into consideration, plus other things that i am sure i could think of if i could think, surely.

Xan FR on their own aren't especially great, but combined with DE they should be lethal. Especially with a revitalised Tzen.

Yes. The thing that usually nerfs the FR/DE combo is that too many things, collectively, target them as they are in the middle classes. just the number of different opposing classes means that you cant just load up on one or two types of ship and know that you will get through like Terran BA/Syren or Cathaar Roaches - it means that you have to divide your resources six ways which means that many targets you wont have enough of x ship or quite enough of y ship and so on. I think that this might be why it has traditionally been more difficult to attack with.

Agreed? Agreed? What is this agreed?

I agreed with the bit that i quoted. Probably because it made sense to me at the time, but in my current state (and the fact that you said it ) it doesnt necc mean much .

As you saw in my stats, I'd make their Lancer steal CO. This would be good for the Xan FR fleet and would give the Arrowhead more of a role. I agree that an ETA 7 stealer is too powerful.

Perhaps i am again going to be stupid, but in your stats you had a FI pod and a CO pod - and if Xan is stealing CO why would you have a FR/DE fleet as you dont have any pods in FR or DE. That would be pretty lemming attacking, without pods. Brings back memories of hirr .

Yess... i shall make it so...

No sleep for Soveh! Get R15 stats started now, kthxbye.

No Lunar, just five more minutes please - school isnt important............ it can wait .... no Lunar no!

eek, furbeh that was cruel .

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Them Crazy people above who say to much

Lots and Lots of random stats and stuff

Shouldnt all this be in like a thread for stats next round?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by noah02

Shouldnt all this be in like a thread for stats next round?

yeah prolly, but the great thing with writing on a forum that has links to individual posts and links to threads is that you are able to just refer back to certain posts where you have already said something before instead of typing it all out again long fashion like this.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

yeah prolly, but the great thing with writing on a forum that has links to individual posts and links to threads is that you are able to just refer back to certain posts where you have already said something before instead of typing it all out again long fashion like this.

hehehe

[teknik]

Originally Posted by furball

Well, dear readers, we were chatting about MSN on this. These were the stats I came up with.

Name		Class		Target		Type
Vsharrak	Fighter		Corvette	Normal
Pulsar		Fighter		Destroyer	Normal
Sentinel	Fighter		Fighter		Normal
Arrowhead	Corvette	Frigate		Normal
Bomber		Corvette	Battleship	Normal
Lancer		Destroyer	Corvette	Steal
Fireblade	Cruiser		Cruiser		Normal
Peacekeeper	Cruiser		Frigate		Normal
Dreadnought	Battleship	Corvette	Normal
Dagger		Fighter		Roids		Astropod
Vulture		Corvette	Roids		Astropod
Predator	Cruiser		Structures	Structure Killer

The key thing is that I've made the Lancer a stealer. Much better.

i didnt read your whole post i'm afraid, but i just saw eta 7 anti BS and shuddered

[noah02]

Originally Posted by teknik

i didnt read your whole post i'm afraid, but i just saw eta 7 anti BS and shuddered

you know i didnt notice that but agreed

[furball]

In Round 13, it made sense for Ziks to build mass Corsair since they stole cruisers (which, actually, they found just as hard to attack with as the Caths did). I'm not too worried about ETA 7 anti BS, frankly it'll make BS a little easier to cover than it is at the moment, but no more. Cath had the problem that they didn't kill any ships, whereas Terran have their heavily armoured/armed Battleships.


A full set of stats will come later today (not based on FI/CO Xans).