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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 09:07   #1
Appocomaster
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World Cup setups

I know we've had a few different reactions to the 'old school' world cup announcement. I also realise that some are happy about having it (specifically with 2 races) for the single player event but would prefer something different for the galaxy game.

If it seems that the large majority would prefer a more current setup for the world cup galaxy games, we can change it - if you think it'd be better with a more current setup, please say here, preferably with why!
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 09:11   #2
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Re: World Cup setups

I am completely against it
Old game is gone. New system is better.
If i wanted to play old School i would the awful evil clone
If this sheet keeps on Brazillians will only win Real Life Worldcup.


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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 09:16   #3
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Re: World Cup setups

Well, I'd like the WC to be more like PA, what PA is today, not what it was, and the reasons are:

First of all, coz I like the way PA is, and this has no reason, it's like if I asked you why you like girls, you just like them, and thats's how I feel about PA the way it is today.

Secondly, the teams are going to have 10 members, 4 races (not only about the races, but all the set up to be honest) would bring more possibilities than only 2, the game isnt supposed to be like "do a couple of ships and move them" a winning gal is ofc going to do a good job before the rounds, choosing races, def and attack ships, and 4 races, enlarges the tatics here, the amounts and types of ships.

Finally, we play PA, there are tons of clones that are just like the current wc set up, if this was fun and good, I wouldnt be playing PA, I play PA and I like PA, the wau it is, I cant see why changing the whole game to a non-PA kind, if it's supposed to be PA World Cup. If its a PA World Cup, just do it like PA is.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 09:52   #4
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Re: World Cup setups

Adjusting to the new game-design's fun, no one has all historic precedings setup so that they max things out as quick as possible. Though politics remains the same whereever you go.

Gr.

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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 10:58   #5
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Re: World Cup setups

Hey? Like new pa appoco if you please. I was a fan of old versions too but recent style rocks. 2 races might be interesting though, but just loading r17 stats would be fine with me. Also, r14 stats imo - Rocked - Cat co ftw :P

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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 12:21   #6
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Re: World Cup setups

I prefer old PA any day.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 13:39   #7
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Re: World Cup setups

Personally I prefer new PA, however I think it would be fun for a special event to play some old-school PA
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 13:50   #8
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I prefer old PA any day.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 14:35   #9
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Re: World Cup setups

I would like an old school version. Tbh you have the PA version of today in rounds and ofc in speed rounds, this is supposed to be a new and a different event to celebrate the world cup. So why not have somthing different? Go back to the old stages some what? I think its a great idea, and gives people a sense of nostalga.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 17:11   #10
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Re: World Cup setups

The old skool might be nice for single player, but for the gal world cup i'd like it if it had this rounds stats/ships/races/etc
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 18:51   #11
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador
Well, I'd like the WC to be more like PA, what PA is today, not what it was, and the reasons are:

First of all, coz I like the way PA is, and this has no reason, it's like if I asked you why you like girls, you just like them, and thats's how I feel about PA the way it is today.

Secondly, the teams are going to have 10 members, 4 races (not only about the races, but all the set up to be honest) would bring more possibilities than only 2, the game isnt supposed to be like "do a couple of ships and move them" a winning gal is ofc going to do a good job before the rounds, choosing races, def and attack ships, and 4 races, enlarges the tatics here, the amounts and types of ships.

Finally, we play PA, there are tons of clones that are just like the current wc set up, if this was fun and good, I wouldnt be playing PA, I play PA and I like PA, the wau it is, I cant see why changing the whole game to a non-PA kind, if it's supposed to be PA World Cup. If its a PA World Cup, just do it like PA is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephodB
Also, r14 stats imo - Rocked - Cat co ftw :P

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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 18:58   #12
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Re: World Cup setups

r14 stats were awful, this 'old' set up is cute but promotes stagnation too much stats wise. HCT was the best thing about pa post-pax, i'm not sure why that's gone.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 19:05   #13
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Re: World Cup setups

yep true that, it slowed down the top players. If you remember back a couple years ago it was sometimes so that the top 1 or 2 players had over 10k roids, these days that amount of roids can't effeciently produce many more resources than the HCT allows.

Greetz,

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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 19:13   #14
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost{}
yep true that, it slowed down the top players. If you remember back a couple years ago it was sometimes so that the top 1 or 2 players had over 10k roids, these days that amount of roids can't effeciently produce many more resources than the HCT allows.

Greetz,

Ghost{}
In fairness it's the time taken to do them rather than the actual limit that seems to be the big thing at the minute. Only one player went over 8k roids this round, none the previous round and two the round before, but they were both less than 1k roids over the limit.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 19:21   #15
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Re: World Cup setups

Not to forget Finance Centres.

I think the WC being 'old school' is good, maybe then people will realise how poor it wise compared to now, rather than remembering it through some rose-tinted spectacles.
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 19:22   #16
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Re: World Cup setups

i'm not actually sure why there is a limit anyway, there really is very little reason to attack after 8k roids now - no xp either?
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 19:35   #17
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Re: World Cup setups

Personally I would prefer the "old school" stats, not just because I like the old system but also because using "new" stats in a speedgame is virtually impossible to balance. Any stealing in a speedgame causes huge imbalance (and I still think it will be even in this where people are more likely to be active)
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Unread 11 Jun 2006, 23:52   #18
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Re: World Cup setups

pa team isnt supposed to give a totally balanced stats for the gal event, you are going to balance in chosing what you are playing etc. We can see that the stats were never balanced, there will always be stronger and weaker races, thats up to you to decide what you are playing.

I say again, this WC doesnt have PA's face, its much more PIA than PA.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 00:28   #19
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Re: World Cup setups

Obviously you will have to decide what is/are the strongest race(s) and what the best attack/def ships are between your group. However if there is a steal race I feel it will either end up being unplayable or you could end up with half a gal going zik, half going cath and the ziks completely dominating the entire round.

In a speedgame (especially with no xp) stealing is incredibly powerful. If you use zik stats from this round it will be a farce. If you use zik stats from any of the previous 7 rounds it will be a farce. If stealing is used in the speedgame it has to be nerfed hugely. It would only take being away from the keyboard for 10 minutes to have your entire fleet stolen by a zik. After the first couple of hours this would probably be a very regular occurence and a zik who finds the right target or just simply gets lucky would be way too powerful.

In my opinion stealing is just unworkable in a competitive speedgame situation. It would either be too strong or it would be nerfed so much that it would require insane amounts of luck to do well with them. I feel finding a middle ground without serious stat testing (like proper testing from now until the speedgame and even then I wouldn't be convinced) would be all but impossible.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 01:16   #20
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Re: World Cup setups

I like XP and I wanted it in the WC, just to mention ...

another way is to make Ziks not steal, but subvert the ships, like round 12 or so.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 11:42   #21
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
I would like an old school version. Tbh you have the PA version of today in rounds and ofc in speed rounds, this is supposed to be a new and a different event to celebrate the world cup. So why not have somthing different? Go back to the old stages some what? I think its a great idea, and gives people a sense of nostalga.
Agree completely.

There is going to be a whole round after the World Cup with the PaX+ system still in effect. Why not try a change for the speedgames? At the very least it will be a different kind of challenge and an interesting experiment. GG Appoco.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 12:00   #22
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Re: World Cup setups

The word that came to mind when I saw this was 'refreshing'. I like it.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 12:10   #23
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
The word that came to mind when I saw this was 'refreshing'. I like it.
I assume that was because this is different, and not because all anyone did in the early rounds was hit refresh until the pages worked.

btw, the rumour that the pa team were bored and decided to play 'old school' then realised we could use this for a worldcup setup is entirely fictional

Edit:
My view is that XP and stealing gets wildly out of hand in most speedgames - you can get ships back so much quicker that the players generally are willing to lose more ships to capture asteroids. While the Round 17 setup is lower in terms of XP than any previous setup, I'm fairly sure that XP will still play far more of a part in a speedround on that setup than in the game itself.

While the stats probably need tweaking slightly, especially for the team game, I think it'd be interesting to do something different. I admit this is looking backward when we should be looking forwards, but it's worthwhile having several setups of code to play different and more interesting games - an old school one, a current one, a capture the flag one, and so on. Variety is the spice of life :-)
We can then probably have a few more speedgames, so that everyone can play their favourite one. My only concern is too many speedgames will end up with a last-horixon situation, where not many people bother to play.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 15:33   #24
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Re: World Cup setups

to the people who talk about resemblances to pia; what? pia uses the r6 onwards race set up, not the r5 and prior war/science split.

by the way, i'd just like the HCT reinstated, other than that i think this would be fine, as refreshing is indeeding what it is, and that's a positive thing.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 19:29   #25
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Re: World Cup setups

I dont know about you, but I'm not only talking about the stats, but the set up as a whole.

Too many speed games would take the shine away of it, so its a bad idea.

Well, I already said what I though, just gonna add this: "new school" is always better than "old school" coz, if "old school" was better, it was not supposed to be "old", and it would be being used till today.

I dont know many things about the Brazilian gal anymore, everyone, but one exception, looks so disappointed.
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 19:41   #26
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Re: World Cup setups

old school PA ftw

I've done some testing on the set up with appoco 1 on 1. Trust me, this rawks
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 23:11   #27
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Re: World Cup setups

Things I think you should keep from new PA:

Research "style" (maybe ETA difference)
Construction "style" (maybe ETA difference)
"Scanning" style (ie no scanning just initiating)
Attack style (1 tick attack)


Things you should bring back for the world cup:

Simpler stats like you've got
Defence style (3 tick defence - its going to be very difficult to coordinate defence if its only possible to land for 1 tick)
Keep XP out of it
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 23:25   #28
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Re: World Cup setups

I think throwback stats are definately the way to go.

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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 23:31   #29
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Re: World Cup setups

I did come up with an idea for speedgame, based on branching tech trees.

The example was 2 starter races, with 1 pod and 5-6 normal ships each. For the other 3 (or 4) ships, they would choose a branch to go. Basic war race, for example, would start with well armoured ships (50-55) and a DE pod but 'advanced war' would deliver better armoured ships (60+) and a BS pod etc. This ended up with 6 possibilities which I thought allowed some more interesting ideas than just 2 basic races (which is really difficult to make all that interesting).

However, balancing that was an absolute nightmare, so I can only wish appoco the best of luck with the set that's being made!
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Unread 12 Jun 2006, 23:42   #30
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador
I say again, this WC doesnt have PA's face, its much more PIA than PA.
I've hardly been paying attention, so could you explain that for me?

From what I can see, pia uses 4 races too, and the stats changes were the crux of your argument?
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 03:10   #31
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I've hardly been paying attention, so could you explain that for me?

From what I can see, pia uses 4 races too, and the stats changes were the crux of your argument?
no, as I said before, I am not only talking about stats, but the set up as a whole, the tecnology tree is just like PIA's, we can also say that the scanning is also much more like PIA than PA, xan ships don't show on gal status, PIA, eonium as fuel, PIA, no cov op, PIA, no XP, PIA again and 2 races, that is used nowhere, so not even PA or PIA. Apocco has changed the entire game, the only thing that is beeing kept is the name "PA World Cup", I cant see anything more than this.

But well, if you feel ok with this, what can I do? Nothing will be changed for the minority. But I may not play, I am not chantagearing or anything, its just the way I fell. When I first saw this set up, my first reaction was "I'm not gonna spend 24 hours of my life playing this" and thats how it should go :crymeariver:
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 03:19   #32
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
old school PA ftw

Yeah, you guys did a really good job keeping this community large and friendly for new players
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 05:24   #33
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intruder
Yeah, you guys did a really good job keeping this community large and friendly for new players
Last time I checked old school PA had way more new players than PA does now.

Almost entirely because it was free of course.
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 09:29   #34
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador
no, as I said before, I am not only talking about stats, but the set up as a whole, the tecnology tree is just like PIA's, we can also say that the scanning is also much more like PIA than PA, xan ships don't show on gal status, PIA, eonium as fuel, PIA, no cov op, PIA, no XP, PIA again and 2 races, that is used nowhere, so not even PA or PIA. Apocco has changed the entire game, the only thing that is beeing kept is the name "PA World Cup", I cant see anything more than this.
Evil pateam stealing all their ideas from PIA
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 11:02   #35
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Re: World Cup setups

Quite why anyone thinks that the old style of play was fun ill never know!

If we play with the setup orginally suggested the gal competition will be over in 3-4 hours.

Im really looking forward to seeing the complete bashing of the top galaxy also, seens as there would be no other way to catch them due to no XP.

The entire idea of this world cup setup should be people fighting eachother tooth and nail, so why the hell dont we reward attacking, and actually make it worthwhile even in the last hour!

The way i see it, it will simply be a roid race for the first few hours, and then the galaxy which gets the upper hand hanging on to the roids they have.

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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 11:05   #36
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Re: World Cup setups

Just stick back in HCT please please please please please.
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 17:29   #37
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Re: World Cup setups

Multiple posting won't help you there, there needs to be support from others to return the HCT and personally I don't feel a need for it in an old style speedgame. We did fine without it before.

Greetz,

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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 17:49   #38
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Quite why anyone thinks that the old style of play was fun ill never know!
If you didnt think it was fun why on earth did you spend so much time playing it?
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 18:24   #39
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost{}
Multiple posting won't help you there, there needs to be support from others to return the HCT and personally I don't feel a need for it in an old style speedgame. We did fine without it before.

Greetz,

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We didn't do fine. Why do you think they changed the game? Because the magic eightball told them to?
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 18:45   #40
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Re: World Cup setups

Put in HCT Put in HCT
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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 19:03   #41
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
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If you didnt think it was fun why on earth did you spend so much time playing it?
You know exactly why, so why even bother to ask?

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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 19:06   #42
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
You know exactly why, so why even bother to ask?

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Unread 13 Jun 2006, 19:45   #43
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Re: World Cup setups

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Well, most people wouldnt devote thier life to a game they didnt enjoy to some extent just for thier friends.
Its not the "game" itself i enjoyed, more the reaction of others, and the "respect":crymeariver: i seemed to get for it. It became infectious and thus i carried on.
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Unread 15 Jun 2006, 18:49   #44
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Re: World Cup setups

The stats seem wrong to me. There are no structure killers or covert ops for structures. Personally I think people will work together in attacking and someone is bound to volunteer to be a scanner. With no SK's the one with the most distorters will win. <---These comments only apply to the single person WC. With the 10 person galaxies a dedicated scanner will still be needed ofc.
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 04:39   #45
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Re: World Cup setups

OLD PA sooooooo much better cantbeleve theres even a debate about it thoughs who say new pa is better probebly never played old style pa (or if did wernt too good at it no offence hehe)
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 09:57   #46
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Re: World Cup setups

On a side note is pilkara running for the speedies? And does anyone have a working bcalc with the new stats?
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 18:52   #47
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Re: World Cup setups

People that only talks shit like "PA old school rox" and gives no reason for it, should take a look at what the PA WC players are saying about it in the official IRC channel
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 20:54   #48
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Re: World Cup setups

I can't say I've ever been so bored by a round, especially a speed round.
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 21:52   #49
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Re: World Cup setups

If you went war in this WC you really picked the wrong race. Sci is so overpowered and because of that I think it's boring even for the sci gamers.
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Unread 17 Jun 2006, 22:45   #50
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Re: World Cup setups

Just remembering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
old school PA ftw
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