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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 18:11   #51
teknik
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

i expect BS fleet to be significantly better/harder to cover than fi fleets if that happens, as 3 ticks to get def is just too easy. or i expect BS to have anti CO and fire before the CO anti BS :P

yes it made sense for ziks to build corsair, but if you look at your stats the only anti BS xans have would be CO, so no xan is going to be without them...you cant say they arent going to be in abundance
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 18:24   #52
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teknik
i expect BS fleet to be significantly better/harder to cover than fi fleets if that happens, as 3 ticks to get def is just too easy. or i expect BS to have anti CO and fire before the CO anti BS :P

yes it made sense for ziks to build corsair, but if you look at your stats the only anti BS xans have would be CO, so no xan is going to be without them...you cant say they arent going to be in abundance
We're not using those stats anyway don't worry yourself.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 23:15   #53
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

I've now finished my stats, find me on IRC or send me a board PM with your e-mail address if you want a copy. I'll send you whatever is my latest draft.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 23:40   #54
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I've now finished my stats, find me on IRC or send me a board PM with your e-mail address if you want a copy. I'll send you whatever is my latest draft.
Are you making the stats for round XV ? Appoco is too lazy ehh ?
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 00:15   #55
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

He probably just got too much shite from the community for what turned out to actually be a decent set of stats.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 00:24   #56
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotatrix
Are you making the stats for round XV ? Appoco is too lazy ehh ?
No, I'm not. However, I thought I'd give it a go. Besides, Appoco's stats were great.


Predictably, my first draft had a million and one holes in. I am attempting to fix them
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 09:23   #57
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

I'm trying to sort out my stats.
Apart from changing the sent to Fi, this mainly consists of trying to make the Fr fleets work, while if possible keep stealing for all races. A few of us (including furball) have decided that, while most of the races aren't that far apart in terms of competing in their own way, Xan probably need the biggest changes to accomplish this. Having not seen much about the Xan Fr(/De fleet), I'd be interested if anyone wanted to discuss it with me having used it this round.
we're still of mixed views as to whether or not to keep stealing for all races - for Xan in particular it causes problems.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 11:44   #58
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

please .. no stealing for other ships

stealing belong to zik
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 11:56   #59
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bintara
please .. no stealing for other ships

stealing belong to zik
only ziks say that.

I enjoy the choice to steal as a Terran.


Edit: and xans to they hate stealing the ppl i have spoken to who are xans.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 12:01   #60
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

im gonna arrange a club for ziks

Federation Of Zikonians

we will send a petition to Universe Galatic Federation bout this ... our race r for stealing other races' ships not being steal


^.^

just j/k
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 16:09   #61
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

I've made some adjustments to this round's stats for a draft for next round: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...01#post2931701
just thought as people were paying more attention here, I'd link in

Note: they include stealing for all races still, but Xan's steal is slightly better than before
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 18:36   #62
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

:-( makes me a sad panda.

Why cant we just go back to one race and rely on skill and tactics... or alternatively have 4 races with 4 UNIQUE abilities.

Of course ziks are moaning about other races having steal, ziks have to suffer the worst racial stats to be able to steal... what right do the other races have to have this ability AS WELL AS (allegedly) competitve stats?

I have mentioned it before in another thread (probably) but I will put it here for reference.
Suggestion
Terrans: Give 1 steal ship, 1 emp ship so as to make them the ideal starter race and give a taster of the other races. Make them average all rounders with no real strength.
Xans: Work out a method of allowing xans to use more than one ship class (fi) and yet not make cloaking too powerful (ie the current method would not work)
Cats: EMP
Ziks: Stealing
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 19:05   #63
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

well, Zik are still unique in that only they can steal more than one class. They have slightly poorer ships on average because they potentially can steal all ships. Ziks are for (on average) more skilled players as it's less obvious how to play.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 22:47   #64
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
only ziks say that.

I enjoy the choice to steal as a Terran.


Edit: and xans to they hate stealing the ppl i have spoken to who are xans.
I may as well point out matey I made this thread, and I am a Terr who has been relatively successful stealing this round (almost 3k xan DE stolen to date and a few scarabs). Not everyone is as single minded as you think :/
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Unread 9 Sep 2005, 05:35   #65
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Why cant we just go back to one race and rely on skill and tactics... or alternatively have 4 races with 4 UNIQUE abilities.
Players these days expect more from this game than a single race, single set of stats, and another R4-esque Spiders Pods and Phoenixes. Quite frankly, having the one 'race' was fine in R1-5, indeed R4/5 had Tech Trees where were pretty close to races (whether you needed the heavier classes or not), and even R3 you could choose between "War" (Battleships) and "Science" (Tarants) though even then using WF were prolly better than Battleships. The thing is, the players these days would quite frankly expect more than 14 types of ship that everyone would use as all fleets would look so similar that it would just be boring.

Just because it worked in R1-5 does not mean it would work now.

Secondly, you argue for 4 races with 4 unique abilities. Then in the same post (as quoted below) you say that Terran should have a stealer and an EMP ship. I dont see how that makes all the abilities unique, but i'll move on. The point of mixing up the races to a small extent is to give many more players the taste of stealing. As Jesterina/Banned said, "Stealing is fun. We shouldn't prevent 70-85% of the players from enjoying that kind of fun." - and i totally agree. Giving Terrans, Caths and Xans the potential to steal does not detract from the viability of the Zikonian race. Having said that, there are some issues with some race's stealing (namely Caths stealing Sents) - but that's more of a problem with the Xan Sentinel more than with Cathaar stealing.

Quote:
Of course ziks are moaning about other races having steal, ziks have to suffer the worst racial stats to be able to steal... what right do the other races have to have this ability AS WELL AS (allegedly) competitve stats?
I dunno about 'the worst racial stats' - Ziks, as you know, can steal whatever they need or want to create very diverse fleets that are difficult to stop. If they were really that bad, then Ziks in the universe wouldnt be doing all that well - though they are.

Quote:
Suggestion
Terrans: Give 1 steal ship, 1 emp ship so as to make them the ideal starter race and give a taster of the other races. Make them average all rounders with no real strength.
If this race has no real strength, how are you meant to do well with them? How are you meant to help a new player - if they arent good at a specific thing then dicussing how to play Terran isnt going to help. Quite frankly, if anything, Terran should probably have a good middle class (FR/DE) fleet, or even a FI/CO attack fleet - even if it detracts from their racial history of bigger is better, it would make teaching new players the mechanics of the game simpler, then saying 'oh, come back in a week when you ship research is done' :\ . Terran should be simple and thus easier to play, but lack subtlety, which presently with their BA/DE fakes they actually have.

Quote:
Xans: Work out a method of allowing xans to use more than one ship class (fi) and yet not make cloaking too powerful (ie the current method would not work)
That's alot easier said that done. Indeed, furbeh, Appoco and i have been discussing that very problem on the boards, in #Strategy and over email as well. Its a much more challenging problem than it sounds, heh.
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Unread 9 Sep 2005, 12:31   #66
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

"Why cant we just go back to one race and rely on skill and tactics..."

sarcasm is lost on you i see. Yes it would be nice if everything was simple again, but its not and quite honestly its for the better, more choice is always good.

My suggestion for the Terrans was an alternative idea I posted in another thread somewhere. It was aimed at making Terrans the ultimate noob race and give a sample of everything and yet be good at none of them. That way in following rounds the player can decide what they liked (emp/stealing/fighting) and choose a race that suits them. The community does not support noobs as much as it thinks it does so if the stats can be made in such as way as to allow them to help themselves then great :-)

'Worst racial stats' comments basically concern the one and only stat that is important... initiative. I don't much care what anyone else says about it, if you fire last you may not get a chance to fire back thereby putting you at a major disadvantage.

'stealing best fleet in the world argument'... If ziks could choose what they stole then fair enough, ziks would be great, but generally speaking you kinda just steal whatever happens to be laying about regardless if you want it or not. Yeah sure players realise at times they are low on beetles for example so go out of their ways to try and harvest some, but the reality is that ziks have an awful lot more useless ships than ones they actually want.

'xan cloaking problem'... yeah I know what you mean. If I could think of something that I felt would work well instead, I would suggest it. :-(
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Unread 9 Sep 2005, 21:42   #67
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
"Why cant we just go back to one race and rely on skill and tactics..."

sarcasm is lost on you i see. Yes it would be nice if everything was simple again, but its not and quite honestly its for the better, more choice is always good.
want some advice? start using [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags. sarcasm is very much a verbal implication rather than a choice of words, and as such it is tricky to tell when people use sarcasm on a forum. even saying something blatantly stupid isn't a guaranteed way to make people realise you are using sarcasm, as some blatantly stupid people frequent pretty much all forums in existence saying blatantly stupid things in almost every post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
My suggestion for the Terrans was an alternative idea I posted in another thread somewhere. It was aimed at making Terrans the ultimate noob race and give a sample of everything and yet be good at none of them. That way in following rounds the player can decide what they liked (emp/stealing/fighting) and choose a race that suits them. The community does not support noobs as much as it thinks it does so if the stats can be made in such as way as to allow them to help themselves then great :-)
I strongly disagree. The way things work atm people have a main "prey" (for example a BS terr can be Dragon heavy and hence concentrate on attacking caths). By making Terr's a complete beginner race you basically say "any race who mainly preys upon Terr cant become big" and then you get a chain where by there is a definative best race simply because they prey upon the race which preys upon the race which preys upon Terrs (i'm sure i could have expressed that more articulately :/) which is boring. I like the stats this round, where pretty much every race can do well (as proven by all 4 races being represented in the top 10..atleast at the time of posting). Also i think Noah would have something to say about you making terrs suck

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
'stealing best fleet in the world argument'... If ziks could choose what they stole then fair enough, ziks would be great, but generally speaking you kinda just steal whatever happens to be laying about regardless if you want it or not. Yeah sure players realise at times they are low on beetles for example so go out of their ways to try and harvest some, but the reality is that ziks have an awful lot more useless ships than ones they actually want.
I think what you have said here outlines the difference between good Zik players and average Zik players. I believe a good Zik finds ways to obtain what he needs, rather than attacking newbies and stealing whole tiny fleets which bump up value but dont deter attackers.

I dont think this needs changing, Ziks should be hard to play as they are atm. well if not hard then hardest.
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 11:43   #68
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teknik
I strongly disagree. The way things work atm people have a main "prey" (for example a BS terr can be Dragon heavy and hence concentrate on attacking caths). By making Terr's a complete beginner race you basically say "any race who mainly preys upon Terr cant become big" and then you get a chain where by there is a definative best race simply because they prey upon the race which preys upon the race which preys upon Terrs (i'm sure i could have expressed that more articulately :/) which is boring. I like the stats this round, where pretty much every race can do well (as proven by all 4 races being represented in the top 10..atleast at the time of posting). Also i think Noah would have something to say about you making terrs suck
Thats exactly what I was aiming for yes. I want to move away from racial enemies, its boring hitting the same race over and over knowing full well that as long as you have more of (ship class) compared to their (ship type) you come off on top, they run their fleet and you get rocks.
By terrans being the noob race I wanted to deter them from being hit, likewise by having aspects of each of the other races they allow players to move onto the main 3 'specialised' races in following rounds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by teknik
I think what you have said here outlines the difference between good Zik players and average Zik players. I believe a good Zik finds ways to obtain what he needs, rather than attacking newbies and stealing whole tiny fleets which bump up value but dont deter attackers.

I dont think this needs changing, Ziks should be hard to play as they are atm. well if not hard then hardest.
Unfortunately the case is you aim to target a player, ideally fleet trap them but you cannot guarantee that the ships that you want to steal will be there. There is limited skill involved, more of a case of luck as few players fight for their asteroids nowadays.
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 12:11   #69
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Unfortunately the case is you aim to target a player, ideally fleet trap them but you cannot guarantee that the ships that you want to steal will be there. There is limited skill involved, more of a case of luck as few players fight for their asteroids nowadays.
then you miss where the skill lies. for example, if you were to target a cath with a BS fleet, what will his alliance send to def...ghosts, bw's? now what could you send to steal ghosts and bw's and make look like BS incs?

what happens if you stock res and leave yourself open to FI, then wait for a FI inc and produce a ton of cutlass? you'd be surprised how well that works.

obviously there is luck involved in just launching a fleet and hoping he doesnt run...
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 21:04   #70
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Yes most people know how to disguise a fleet etc. Point is its often not worth the effort as there is rarely anything there to stop you taking those rocks.
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 21:12   #71
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Yes most people know how to disguise a fleet etc. Point is its often not worth the effort as there is rarely anything there to stop you taking those rocks.
Who are you attacking then? Many 'good' alliances can cover a lot of BS incs now due to getting their Xans to build shed-loads of Ghosts.
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Unread 11 Sep 2005, 12:15   #72
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Who are you attacking then? Many 'good' alliances can cover a lot of BS incs now due to getting their Xans to build shed-loads of Ghosts.
Does it matter? Do you want me to post all my outgoing fleets co-ords?

Just browsing my fleet missions for the last 72hrs and I recalled 2 fleets due to defence out of 7 launches. The majority of these attacks were even made during the day!

This however is irrelevant and moving off topic.
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Unread 13 Sep 2005, 02:12   #73
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

Ok I'm a long time Zik player but abandoned Zik this round due to what I saw as an overly favorable cath roiding fleet. One of my biggest concerns with the Ziks is that they have no low eta steal ship. I understand that this was caused by not wanting any of the other three races to be able to obtain another stealing class of ship.

So if your going to keep stealing ships in the other races to allow for a more interesting secondary roiding fleet, may I suggest the following.

Take the Vsharrak and make it steal frigs. This would help make the frig fleet of the xan race more viable and allow Zik to have and FI that steals.

On a side note if your going to take away the ability of ZIK and give it to each race then I think ZIK should get 1 emp ship 1 cloaked ship and 1 tank ship as there only 3 non stealing ships. I think this would be fair even tho I know I will be flamed for it.
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Unread 13 Sep 2005, 10:01   #74
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

lol, a 'tank' ship - best description of Terran ships that i've heard in a while
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 19:21   #75
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Re: leave stealing to the ziks?

lol yeah
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Please bear in mind that much of what I say is intended to cause discussion. It may not reflect my personal favouritism or even have any involvement with my situation. In short bitching at me is pointless, so discuss the idea :-)
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