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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 11:55   #1
Appocomaster
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new stats

I've decided to release my stats for general comments, although I'd prefer it if constructive critisicm was made.
Any "OMG ALL RACES HAVE STEAL AND EMP" will not be really listened to, as it's a separate issue.
my latest version of stats is here.
my previous version (mainly pre-recent cath changes) is here.
Most/ all of the rough attack combos are given on the "attack new" page.
=====Updated======
The Scorpion is now the only no-loss Steal ship (correct me if I'm wrong here ) but due to the improvement of the Cath Co it is possible to make it Fr class.
Cath now have 1 of each type of ship that EMPs.
I've updated the fact that all xan ships that are kill ships / pods / structure killers are cloaked. EMP / Steal ships can be cloaked (although the stats page needs to be updated ingame to actually have a cloaked column you can view), but I'm not sure what other ships need to be cloaked (especially with Cath!). Ideas are appreciated .

=============Updated 2nd=========
New stats - don't have time to update the old ones really, though I will read ideas.
located here (also linked to on the second page)
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 27 Jun 2005 at 11:29.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 12:23   #2
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Re: new stats

Hey Appocco, I don't quite have the time to read them thoroughly right now [exams etc.] but a quick observation is that Cath seem to be very vunerable to Xan's fi and Ter overall heavy armour.

Zik definately looks like it will be "the hard race to play" as it was intended in r13, I think the beginning of of the game will be toughest for them.

Terr also seem more vunerable to Xan's fi [even more so!] meaning that it might get a little difficult for smaller gals/alliances to cover xan atacks.

Ofc, this might all be intentional and might not be a bad thing, its just a prelimanary observation.

Thanks for the time and effort, I appreciate it at least, lol.

I'll eventually get round to maliing you back, again its my exams! apologies!
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 12:30   #3
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Re: new stats

Yes, there's meant to be weaknesses - each race's pod fleet can take 2 other races (generally) more easily. The exceptions to this are the Cath Co, which can only really take Terrans and flak low-Scorpion Caths until the Scorpion steals Co from ingal defence, and the Pegasus, which generally has to take fire, but can take Zik most easily Xan and Cath to a lesser extent.
Terran might be a bit armour heavy, but they obviously don't do too much damage
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 12:47   #4
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Re: new stats

Terrans and Xans have no anti-CO that they can send out of galaxy. Also Cats won't build many Spiders seeing as they will concentrate mainly on Scorpions. wtf??? Though I suppose it isn't such a big deal seeing as Cats are the only CO fleet.

Ziks can't steal frigates or destroyers, what's up with that? Now that all the other races can steal I'd say that it would be a lot more important for Ziks to be able to steal everything than it was before. It's not such a big problem for Cats.

The Drake looks unnecessarily weak, firepower wise.

I'm sure there's a lot more than I can comment on but all those class changes are making my head hurt so I'll stop.

At first glance I'd say that that the speed game stats were better though.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:05   #5
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Re: new stats

Obviously there will be more Spiders if people go for Co.
The Drake is a bit too weak - I think I had the Syren as anti-Bs and so weakened the Drake, then changed the Syren and never upped the Drake again.
If the Zik could steal all ship classes and EMP and so on then you'd end up with about 2 kill ships, and it'd be almost impossible to roid. As it stands, by stealing Wyvern + Broadswords they can steal all ship types (although obviously stealing Wyvern is going to be easier than stealing Broadswords).
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:05   #6
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Re: new stats

cath as the only none zik race has a class which they cant stop efficiently because they only have a steal ship targetting BS, dont think thats the intention for a none zik race.

also I think the dam/cost ratio for emp ships should be better then the dam/cost ratio for xan ships, they dont kill afterall. I thought that was the whole idea of EMP ships
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:12   #7
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Re: new stats

Yes, the only thing I can think of is changing the Guardian to an anti Bs ship (though I'm not sure if it'd be good to have it as EMP).

Xan might be slightly overpowered and Cath slightly underpowered firepower wise. The Viper probably needs an upgrade, and the Vsh could probably be dropped a damage point.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:19   #8
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Re: new stats

hmm at a glance I dont see problems when changing guardian to targetting BS as an EMP ship. Tho it better be checked properly, also if youd change it to EMP you should keep the marauders initiative in mind, do you want it to fire after the marauder? (Id say yes if zik BS is an attack combo suposed to be used against cath)

ty tho for taking my comments in mind and replying this quickly
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:29   #9
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Re: new stats

Thinking about it, EMP would be better - the change of the viper might have to increase to compensate for loosing anti Cr. Init wise, 3 would be better
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:32   #10
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Re: new stats

EMP on BA is a bad idea.

/me points at BW in R13 .
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:39   #11
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Re: new stats

How is it any worse than EMPing anything else?
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:40   #12
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Re: new stats

i find it a bit weird that the cath CR fleet strong of 5 different ships, doesn't have any emp ship and it's even weirder when they attack Xans... they face an anti CR xan ship which is... an EMP CR. Kind of ironic isn't it ?
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:42   #13
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
How is it any worse than EMPing anything else?
Terrans have higher armour than normal, only a tiny number of Levs need to be unstunned to get a high cap (like 100 levs unstunned = 900 roids potentially lost, so even if you stun 3k BA you still loose full cap for free. If it was kill, then it would be highly unlikely that the attacker would land).

That is the major difference.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:49   #14
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
i find it a bit weird that the cath CR fleet strong of 5 different ships, doesn't have any emp ship and it's even weirder when they attack Xans... the only anti CR xan ship is... an EMP CR. Kind of ironic isn't it ?
Yes I don't know quite how it ended up like that. But it does sort of seem to work.



::updated::
Drake has been upgraded, Vsh slightly downgraded, Viper upgraded, Scarab + Beetle slightly upgraded, Guardian changed to anti Bs EMP.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 13:56   #15
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Re: new stats

if the Guardian needs to compete with ter BS attack fleets while being stunned by marauder (causing them to be not overpowered against zik BS fleets) I would suggest reducing their armor/cost and increasing dam/cost a little more. This makes them easier to stun by marauder thus making zik more effective at attacking cath and it allows the guardian to compete with ter BS immense armor better at the same time.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:02   #16
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Re: new stats

But the marauder is stunned by the viper first? Admittedly the guardian is weak, but Bs is meant to be one of Cath's weaker areas. I know the marauder is a far better bs stopper, and in fact generally far superior to the guardian, but I'm very loathe to boost it too much more.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:10   #17
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Re: new stats

ah yes didnt pay attention to the viper well yes then I see the issue, making guardian more powerfull will make zik BS suck. And leaving it like this makes cath pretty good against zik BS just pretty bad against ter. I gues that is less of a problem indeed.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:24   #18
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Terrans and Xans have no anti-CO that they can send out of galaxy.
I'd say that Terran don't even have anti CO to send in galaxy... the only CO roiding fleet is Cath, and the Cath ship will freeze the Terran ship before it fires...
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:30   #19
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Re: new stats

Well, obviously the Lancer is quite effective (1 Lancer is 4x the cost of 1 Beetle, and kills 5 of them). The Gryphon isn't so great, but for about 2x the resources you can quite effectively stop the fleet.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:35   #20
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Re: new stats

isn't it a bit of a waste for Terrans to have 2 anti FR ships when only Xans can roid with FR... or at least one of the ships should be stealing (as it is for Cath anti CO)
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:39   #21
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Re: new stats

In a way, yes. But Syrens give a no-loss option for attacking Xans and are far more efficient (same damage, 15k less resources). In a way it's sort of like saying "why did we have the Pulsar and the Fireblade this round?"
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:46   #22
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Re: new stats

indeed. I have to say i like the stats coz it promotes counter attacking (attacking ships are often those which would be needed to def against the target)
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 14:51   #23
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Re: new stats

I can see 1up celebrating if we do use them
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 15:40   #24
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I'd say that Terran don't even have anti CO to send in galaxy... the only CO roiding fleet is Cath, and the Cath ship will freeze the Terran ship before it fires...
Maybe it should be changed from harpy stealing fighters to harpys killing fighters and gryphon changed back to target destroyers and nixes stealing CO instead?
But then again until stats are complete I aint got a clue
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 16:35   #25
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Terrans have higher armour than normal, only a tiny number of Levs need to be unstunned to get a high cap (like 100 levs unstunned = 900 roids potentially lost, so even if you stun 3k BA you still loose full cap for free. If it was kill, then it would be highly unlikely that the attacker would land).

That is the major difference.
Yes, Terrans have good armour. This is a problem for kill and steal ships as well as for EMP ships though. Also Terrans have the weakest pods (firepower) in the game, so you have to freeze comparatively fewer of them than other races' pods. If you freeze 90% of a Terran's BS but kill nothing then you have the same problem as if you do the same to a Xan FI fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
My current thoughts are that Cath Co is the weakest (roughly), but the scorpion being no-loss defence (the ONLY* steal ship to do this) is compensation.
Only Cats use CO to attack with so having the Scorpion as a steal ship isn't particularly useful. Of course you can send them to attack and hopefully steal some ships from non-Cats but non-Cat Corvettes are no good to attack with anyway.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 17:40   #26
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Only Cats use CO to attack with so having the Scorpion as a steal ship isn't particularly useful. Of course you can send them to attack and hopefully steal some ships from non-Cats but non-Cat Corvettes are no good to attack with anyway.
Obviously Xan just pray there's no Harpys when they roid Terran? Or maybe they'd send sents? The Vsh cover them.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 17:43   #27
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Re: new stats

terran seem horribly weak against fi/co combos from both xan and zik...

cat cr looks to have a lot of defence options, the co aspect is nice, but then the defence sent against it would be zero lossquick stuff, tad unfair?
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 17:54   #28
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
Maybe it should be changed from harpy stealing fighters to harpys killing fighters and gryphon changed back to target destroyers and nixes stealing CO instead?
But then again until stats are complete I aint got a clue
Harpys steal Fighters as they're one of the most common pod ship classes in the game.
Over time, they're actually enough to get a semi-decent attack/defence fighter class put together. If Gryphons were switched to target De and Phoenixes Co again, firstly the Beetle would have to switch to target Co (making the Cathaar far more reliant on the Tarantula to defend) and secondly the De fleet would be a lot less effective when stealing the Lancer - which currently opens up much more powerful attack routes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
terran seem horribly weak against fi/co combos from both xan and zik...

cat cr looks to have a lot of defence options, the co aspect is nice, but then the defence sent against it would be zero lossquick stuff, tad unfair?
Yes, this is why the damage of the beetle and thief are comparitively lower, due to being 0 loss. It's also why probably the second most common (non pod) Co ship used for attacking (the sentinal) suddenly turns those defences into losses, so while the Cr starts being the primary pod fleet, stolen Co can make the Co pod fleet more viable.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 18:12   #29
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Re: new stats

I really think you should reconsider that Syrens emps. Syrens are vital in defense against Zik FR.
All in all Terrans seems terrible on the stats.
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 18:49   #30
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I really think you should reconsider that Syrens emps. Syrens are vital in defense against Zik FR.
All in all Terrans seems terrible on the stats.
ziks only Fr is a steal ship that targets Fi O_o
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Unread 23 Jun 2005, 19:54   #31
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Re: new stats

Zik roiding classes don't include FR, and they can't steal it. Surely Xandathrii. You'll probably notice Syrens are Init 4, below that of the Bomber making Syrens + Dragons somewhat of a decent defence solution. I don't know what you're looking at, but it's not the mock up stats Appoco posted..
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 01:55   #32
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Re: new stats

so, there are no more cloaked ships ?
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 11:36   #33
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Re: new stats

Since I love Cathaar im going to ask you to return its identity seems you have lost it heres why.
CR Fleet has no EMP ships. ( so much for attacking someone bigger then you and those no loss attacks )
CO Fleet has no Chance of no loss vs Xan, Zik

Other faults are
Blackwidow, Guardian arnt worth building so no Anti BS for cath
DMG ratio on EMP ships is less then par
Scarab is the dreaded uber ship that will sit at base fleet 90% of the rnd ( and youll need alot of them )

I think they are decent stats until you get to Cath which may look nice but wont get used. Sorta like the scarab.

Cath Fixes
Roach upgraded and changed to EMP Target to CO
Blackwidow target to CR
Viper target to CR
Guardian changed to normal target to DE
Spider change to CO class and target changed to FI
Scarab Target to BS
Scorpion target to FR
Tarantula Changed to EMP
Beetle target to DE


That seems to work for me

***What to work towards

***| Race | Class | | Type | Class | Targets |
Cathaar Spider EMP Co Fi
Cathaar Beetle EMP Co De
Cathaar Scarab EMP Fr Bs
Cathaar Black Widow Steal De Co
Cathaar Viper EMP De Co
Cathaar Roach EMP Cr De
Cathaar Tarantula EMP Cr Fr
Cathaar Scorpion Steal Cr Fr
Cathaar Guardian Normal Bs Cr
Cathaar Mosquitos Pod Co ROID
Cathaar Hornet Pod Cr ROID



Cathaar Basilisk SK Cr STRUCTURE
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 11:42   #34
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
so, there are no more cloaked ships ?
Sorry. All normal Xan ships are cloaked. Yes, I haven't given other races them, but it was always sort of next on my list. I suppose i could make a list of the ships that should be cloaked
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 12:16   #35
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~RevictioN~
Since I love Cathaar im going to ask you to return its identity seems you have lost it heres why.
CR Fleet has no EMP ships. ( so much for attacking someone bigger then you and those no loss attacks )
yes I realised this and it's been mentioned above but OTOH it's actually a pretty nice fleet

Quote:
CO Fleet has no Chance of no loss vs Xan, Zik
This has already been discussed too
Quote:
Other faults are
Blackwidow, Guardian arnt worth building so no Anti BS for cath
Anti Bs is meant to be one of the weak points for the alliance. As has been mentiond already.
Quote:
DMG ratio on EMP ships is less then par
Not by much. The Spider is fine - it's a 0 loss def ship for a while at least against the Co fleet.
The Beetle? heh. It's got a higher efficiency than the armour/cost ratio of the Gryphon.
Scarab isn't bad, although it does mean that Cath are weaker vs Zik Fi than Xan Fi (whereas Terran are weaker against Xan Fi than Zik Fi - especially if I change the damage type of the corsair and thief, which I'm still tempted to do).
Viper might need a slight upgrade, but not much.
Same with the Guardian, for reasons posted above and earlier in the thread.

Quote:
Scarab is the dreaded uber ship that will sit at base fleet 90% of the rnd ( and youll need alot of them )
Really? I'd have thought you'd have considered having Scarabs and Spiders hanging at base so you don't get consistantly hit by fighters, as well.
Quote:
I think they are decent stats until you get to Cath which may look nice but wont get used. Sorta like the scarab.
Cath were meant to go for Cr first. The Scarab is the most efficient ship barring the Peacekeeper, and it has an ETA advantage (although if Roaches are present it isn't a 0 loss defence).
Quote:
Cath Fixes
Blackwidow target to CR
Viper target to CR
Viper already targets Cr. Why would you want 2 Destroyer class ships that hit Cr? This gives a steal/EMP combo on the same class, which quite frankly is one of the things I was trying to avoid.
Quote:
Spider change to CO class and target changed to FI
Making the only alliance-ETA defence ship the Thief? And making every alliance now have an alliance-ETA defence ship for Anti-Fi? Are you sure?
Quote:
Roach upgraded and changed to EMP Target to CO
Scorpion target to FR
Why would Cath want to steal Fr? Even with changing the Black Widow to stealing Cr, there's far more Bs than Fr around for stealing.
Secondly what's the point of an EMP anti-Co Cr ship for Cath? I can see a point for a steal ship, because it's ingal "PDS" that steals it's own pod class.
Quote:
Guardian changed to normal target to DE
Making the "PDS" anti De a loss taking ship instead of a 0-loss ship, meaning the De fleet is a lot stronger (as it would fire after the Drake). Actually, I obscurely like this, but it does mean that the Cr fleet needs the Guardian for hitting Zik.
Quote:
Scarab Target to BS
Tarantula Changed to EMP
Beetle target to DE
That seems to work for me
changing the Beetle to target De? This means they can't hit Terran, and gives Cath an anti De ship that is in-allaince ETA.
Tarantula changed to EMP negates the fact that Chimera are meant to fire before them as one of the best anti cr ships with the Scarab (tbh the Peacekeeper might need a slight downgrade, having looked at it).
I guess if the Chimera were upgraded this would be viable.
If you look at the races, they can all send alliance defence against roughly 3 of the pod classes, (and often can send ingal defence against another one) but they're always weak against 2-3. [For Terran I didn't really count the Harpy].
Out of all the changes, changing the Guardian to hit normal De, the Scarab changing to Co class, changing the Tula to EMP (with the Chimera being upgraded), and changing the Roach to anti-Bs (probably EMP) would be the changes I'd consider most.
I'm worried about changing the Scarab because it'll probably mean too much anti-fi is around and that might mean upgrading the Xan / Zik fighter defence more.
========
Edit: changing the Guardian to kill De makes it very like the Pirate, so it might have to be EMP.
This does mean that if this is EMP, the Roach is EMP vs Bs, and the Tula has been changed to EMP, there won't actually be any kill ships left (unless I change the Scarab to normal and Co)
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 12:42   #36
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Re: new stats

Updated:
Corsair Normal -> Steal
Thief Steal-> Normal
Guardian Anti-Bs -> Anti-De
Roach Normal Anti-De -> EMP Anti-Bs
Scarab EMP Fr-> Normal Co.

Some other ships have been tweaked - the Marauder and the Peacekeeper, but mostly minor changes.
All Xan ships are now "cloaked" unless they're EMP / Steal (they can be EMP/Steal and cloaked, btw)

This does mean that Xan can't really attack Cath so easily, but they can actually destroy Zik with a Vsh/Sent fleet so I'm not so worried
new URL here.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 16:40   #37
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Thief Steal-> Normal
this change (with the current initiatives) means zik can roid cath with a fi fleet in the same easy way as xan could roid zik with fi in r13. I didnt like it back then because ppl far smaller then me could roid me alone unless I got defence. In r13 the problem was Cutlass being high init but atleast it was steal so with enough cutlass you could atleast get ships for your roids.

Now the ship is scarab which doesnt steal, doesnt have use in attacking (cept flak) and has overal low stats (ok that is quite normal for cath none EMP so I dont mind bad stats).

this scarab is comparable with the sentinel from rnd 11, too bad too build. only difference is that in r11 xan would have fireblade to fall back on late rnd. Cath have nothing to fall back on.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 17:58   #38
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Re: new stats

my personal opinion is that cath should be able to emp every ships class, and every race is distintive from the others. I.e. more like speedgame stats than what they have now turned into.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 18:06   #39
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Re: new stats

z0mG! But seriously, why every race must have EMP/steal ? Isn't the 'thing' in races that everyone is unique compared to others. Now that all got EMP's and steal's something isn't right imo.. Think about it, every race was born in their own "mother" planet, and from those they sent fleets to conquer more and more planets and every race had their own "abilities." Like if we would meet aliens they wouldn't have guns like we do; they would have their own unique weapons what they had invented theirself!

I know that _might_ be stupid, but imo, every race should have that 'thing' why to play them.. The only race which will still have them after that "improvement" is xan, since they will have have cloak in allmost all ships, which can still be ofc changed. Atleast keep it so that cath's will have more EMP's and zik's more steal's than others.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 18:21   #40
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiX
this change (with the current initiatives) means zik can roid cath with a fi fleet in the same easy way as xan could roid zik with fi in r13. I didnt like it back then because ppl far smaller then me could roid me alone unless I got defence. In r13 the problem was Cutlass being high init but atleast it was steal so with enough cutlass you could atleast get ships for your roids.

Now the ship is scarab which doesnt steal, doesnt have use in attacking (cept flak) and has overal low stats (ok that is quite normal for cath none EMP so I dont mind bad stats).

this scarab is comparable with the sentinel from rnd 11, too bad too build. only difference is that in r11 xan would have fireblade to fall back on late rnd. Cath have nothing to fall back on.
yes it does need boosting a bit.
The other problem was that looking at Cr closely, they suck.
The best thing I could see to make Cr more playable is to:
Xan
swap the peacekeeper and broadsword over, and change the EMP init so that it fires after the roach
Zik
Change the marauder to init 4, so that they shoot after the guardian.
This makes the guardian + cr combo viable.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 18:34   #41
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
yes it does need boosting a bit.
The other problem was that looking at Cr closely, they suck.
The best thing I could see to make Cr more playable is to:
Xan
swap the peacekeeper and broadsword over, and change the EMP init so that it fires after the roach
Zik
Change the marauder to init 4, so that they shoot after the guardian.
This makes the guardian + cr combo viable.
Why not go back to rnd 13 stats, tweak the ships a bit and done?
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 21:07   #42
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Re: new stats

These aren't "the" stats to go forward and be tweaked for r14. This is simply about exploring wider options and trying to find the most balanced/interesting set of stats for the round ahead. Appoco's stats give a lot of new possibilities and a chance for players to really think again rather than following r13's formula.
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 22:38   #43
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Updated:

Thief Steal-> Normal

[/url].
That actually sounds daft :/
I ship called thief that doesnt actually steal
maybe rename it corsair and rename corsair thief?
Just bit weird but if thats what ye wanna do
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 22:44   #44
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Re: new stats

oh, i do hope that init on the roach doesn't last.

I understand the notion of why it's there, but for god's sake if you want a fast firing cat ship make it emp. an init 3 cathar killing ship?

God help us all
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 22:56   #45
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
yes it does need boosting a bit.
The other problem was that looking at Cr closely, they suck.
The best thing I could see to make Cr more playable is to:
Xan
swap the peacekeeper and broadsword over, and change the EMP init so that it fires after the roach
Zik
Change the marauder to init 4, so that they shoot after the guardian.
This makes the guardian + cr combo viable.
some changes: (might be buggy since I dont think 1 person can check them well enough)

Scarab -> target(normal) Co instead of Fi
Roach -> EMP De (I think that is what they did before)
Scorpion -> steal Fi (still cath can be roided by fi if no defence but now they steal back, might be too effiecient since Fi attack fleets are 2 instead of the 1 Co attack fleet scorpion stole first)
Guardian -> EMP BS, think it was like that before if there were reasons to change it then this isnt valid I gues, I thought it needed to change back so Roach could target De again.

with these changes cath can now roid xan abit better because the scorps steal the pulsar they left home to kill your viper (if they are needed), you can roid zik since roach take care of clipper efficiently. Also the anti Fi defence is upped a bit and there is a ship available in the CO fleet that is actually worth building. (it shouldnt be made too efficient in stopping CO attacks, so ter like stats, higher armor then dmg, cath dmg is sposed to be bad anyways)
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Unread 24 Jun 2005, 23:01   #46
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Re: new stats

even though I dont know much about stats I think the Terrans have shit out with syrens being EMP tbh because no one will touch them for shit if there EMP because of there high eta and they will only be used for in gal defence of which I am sure I will waste my resources on Dragons.
Especially since my alliance will hopefuly amass a nice beetle/corsair fleet with witch my dragons will have less problems killing any left overs.
If anything I think the gryphon or chimera should be emp even though I dont see myself buying many gryphons this round either unless there changed to CO also to accompany the pheonix.

Just trying to help for u ppl who think I am thick
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Unread 25 Jun 2005, 00:32   #47
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Re: new stats

as was said above, these were as much as personal alternative experiment as anything else, and seem to be a bit too radical, although generally after the initial complaints about mixing of things, a lot of people actually seem to like them a bit more and one of their main criticisms becomes that DCs won't be able to cope (which I heavily sympathise with), as while I've tried to make sure there's enough nice defence, everyone can fake quite sucessfully mid-late round with stolen ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
even though I dont know much about stats I think the Terrans have shit out with syrens being EMP tbh because no one will touch them for shit if there EMP because of there high eta and they will only be used for in gal defence of which I am sure I will waste my resources on Dragons.
Especially since my alliance will hopefuly amass a nice beetle/corsair fleet with witch my dragons will have less problems killing any left overs.
Syrens are there to give the option of stopping some anti Bs before it fires, or taking losses and then firing back afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
That actually sounds daft :/
I ship called thief that doesnt actually steal
maybe rename it corsair and rename corsair thief?
Just bit weird but if thats what ye wanna do
Yes, in the beta I changed it (and a few other names, because while I still quite happily remember a harpy (fi) / gryphon + phoenix (co) / chimera (fr) / drake + peg (de) setup, and so on, a lot of people are used to names from last round. The same with when the beetle and spider were fi, scarab + roach + defender were co, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
oh, i do hope that init on the roach doesn't last.

I understand the notion of why it's there, but for god's sake if you want a fast firing cat ship make it emp. an init 3 cathar killing ship?

God help us all
I changed the colour to EMP, but forgot to change the name to EMP. Sorry I'll fix this if I update them again....
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Unread 25 Jun 2005, 00:56   #48
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Yes, in the beta I changed it (and a few other names, because while I still quite happily remember a harpy (fi) / gryphon + phoenix (co) / chimera (fr) / drake + peg (de) setup, and so on, a lot of people are used to names from last round. The same with when the beetle and spider were fi, scarab + roach + defender were co, etc
I remember those days

If I'm not keen on the names of ships when we get to the public beta, I'll pm you/Sovereign with suggestions
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Unread 25 Jun 2005, 02:25   #49
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Re: new stats

In fact it would have been enough to give 2 steal ships to Xan, Ter and Cath... the EMP and Cloak would have come from stealing anyway. But at the beginning each race would be more specific.
Still i find it wrong that Cath CR fleet doesn't have an EMP ship, as wrong as having a zik ship named 'Thief' that doesn't steal
After looking more closely at the Terrans, i'm afraid their BS fleet will have to bash low scores to minimize their losses (vs Ter -drake , Xan - bomber, Cath - roach... even vs Zik combo, they can't take on bigger planets). Their DE fleet goes through nicely on Cath and Zik. The tactic would probably be to use DE fleet for XP and BS fleet for free roids. Not sure i like the idea of more bashing though. Could have been prevented with a race really vulnerable to terran BS until that race could steal (farm?) the proper def.
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Unread 26 Jun 2005, 05:26   #50
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Re: new stats

since the start i thought if this path was taken it was enough to just make one steal ship for each race and that steal ship should be bigger than what it steals (as in one eta higher, to limit that races stealing capability outside galaxy), and should steal their smallest pod class. that would give the small touch of stealing. You can gain an emp ship or cloak ship from cat/xans and the chains should be cut or seriously limited with steal so you don't get steal chains.

One stealship = enough
Zikonian should steal all

* ps. I hope the predator is uncloaked so you have an option of seeing if you got structure killers incoming or not .. ofcourse you could unit scan but uncloaking it couldn't hurt since SK's should be cut lower armor and attack and be something you really have to build purposely .. for a purpose
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