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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 01:51   #1
JonnyBGood
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Round 36 Stats

Hi guys, first things first we're going back to multi-targeting (not my choice, but for the record I wasn't pushed either way) and 3 pods (this was my choice and **** you if you don't like it). Anyways as everyone always complains the stats are never ready they'll be done by either monday or tuesday (I forget which day appoco asked for). As such here they are. If you have input either post here or find me on irc (posting here will be easier as my weekend activity isn't exactly fantastic).

A few basic points to note:
-There's more of a mix between ships with only t1, ships with t2 and ships with t3.
-No fr fires on fr.
-The only de which fires on de is the drake at t2.
-Every race has an option in each 3 meta classes, except for zik who start off without bs/cr pods.
-Although, in my opinion, each roiding fleet is viable on its own a lot of them have a ship in the adjacent (as in same eta) class which improves it a lot in certain situations, the avenger, the mara, the gryphon etc
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 02:33   #2
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Re: Round 36 Stats

ok, just started looking at this shit.
and I am guessing this is a ****ing typo. if not I will shoot you.

Pirate Battleship Cr Bs - Norm 19 1 67 65 94 369 369 454 562 545 Zik

NORMAL at init 19? Thats it for now!
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 03:42   #3
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Re: Round 36 Stats

thats probably a drop down box fail wish

will be interesting to see what people will build though. wish we could get some final info on bp's and such!

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and 3 pods (this was my choice and **** you if you don't like it)
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 03:54   #4
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Why are we going back to multitargetting? Seriously, i dont see any reason for it other than wishmaster wanting to make himself immune from incomings.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 04:55   #5
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Why are we going back to multitargetting? Seriously, i dont see any reason for it other than wishmaster wanting to make himself immune from incomings.
shut it woman.

Most people dont like single targetting, which is explained and discussed in other posts. I for one am happy about the change, as I wouldnt be playing 2 rounds in a row with singletargetting. I m sure planetarion went back to multi just because of me sweety!

The current set looks interesting, compared to the set we had which was imo awful ( biased much )
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 06:27   #6
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Re: Round 36 Stats

most people on this "forum" don't like single targetting, but i know a fair few that welcomed the change. Personally i liked the change, and they can bring it back anytime they want.

but i couldn't care less if its single or multi, as long as stats are balanced, JBG usually does a good job at them so no worries there.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 11:16   #7
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Re: Round 36 Stats

As far as I can see, the single an multi targetting crowds are pretty even. It doesn't happen very often, but I think this was just Appoco making a game design decision. Glad to hear it, even if I disagree with it. :)
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 11:24   #8
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I prefer single-targetting to multi-targetting. However, I also prefer 3 podclasses to 2 podclasses so as far as we get one of those two I'm not gonna complain!
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 12:11   #9
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Multi targetting sucks, and it makes it a lot more complicated for new players to play. But I guess that for the old guard this change will help a few people encourage them to play again.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 12:33   #10
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Pirate Battleship Cr Bs - Norm 19 1 67 65 94 369 369 454 562 545 Zik

NORMAL at init 19? Thats it for now!
Dropdown box fail yeah. To be honest I'd reckon the single/multi-targeting crowd was roughly split. An ingame poll (I don't think a forums would be that accurate) asking which people preferred would be cool. Personally I probably slightly prefer multi-targeting. I think I could have done a much better set of single-targeting next round (although while zik was obviously too strong this round I don't think it wrecked the round as such) but hey, maybe for r37 I'll get a shot at another single-targeting set!
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 15:11   #11
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
shut it woman.

Most people dont like single targetting, which is explained and discussed in other posts. I for one am happy about the change, as I wouldnt be playing 2 rounds in a row with singletargetting. I m sure planetarion went back to multi just because of me sweety!

The current set looks interesting, compared to the set we had which was imo awful ( biased much )
Theres no forum posts where 'most' people say they dont like single targetting.

and in the thread discussing it, you're only complaint about single-targetting was that you couldnt make yourself immune to incomings, which to me is a positive?
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 20:19   #12
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Theres no forum posts where 'most' people say they dont like single targetting.

and in the thread discussing it, you're only complaint about single-targetting was that you couldnt make yourself immune to incomings, which to me is a positive?

I think the point Wish was making was that however good a player you are, with single-targetting you can get roided by an xp whoring nub..i.e cath fi last round.

Atleast with multi-targetting you can atleast stop most of those kind of incs.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 20:43   #13
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Re: Round 36 Stats

What about government changes?
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 20:58   #14
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Rio View Post
I think the point Wish was making was that however good a player you are, with single-targetting you can get roided by an xp whoring nub..i.e cath fi last round.

Atleast with multi-targetting you can atleast stop most of those kind of incs.
I honestly dont see why that is wrong tbh.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 21:05   #15
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I think the point Wish was making was that however good a player you are, with single-targetting you can get roided by an xp whoring nub..i.e cath fi last round.

Atleast with multi-targetting you can atleast stop most of those kind of incs.
So good players can make themselves immune to alot of incomings? So how exactly are they a good player?

To be a top player, you should of had to deal with alot of incomings and had to rely on alliance/galaxy defence to help deal with them. Not just get some nice value then go for the rest of the round with little/no incs.

So my point is.. If your a good player you should have to deal with incomings.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 22:14   #16
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I honestly dont see why that is wrong tbh.
I totally agree.
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 22:42   #17
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Re: Round 36 Stats

i think you need to rename one of the ships to Tommy Bowe
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Unread 27 Feb 2010, 23:58   #18
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I think Zik fi/co needs a 2nd look at. They have 2 Co's and 1 fi yet they have a Fi pod... Usually zik get fr's and cr's for pods. but as JBG said they will have to steal them. If you change the Fi to a Co i think that will fix the problem, or change one of the CO's to a fi just to make things a little easier for zik.

Single targeting as people is very easy to attack with, i dont agree. I think its SO easy to defend every inc ever just by abusing certain ships. This past round there was only 1 fleet that was unstoppable, Cat Fi they could build 95% beetle and roid ANYONE they wanted regarless of value basicly. I dont think that should be done. They should have to build more ships to attack than just 1 ship and pods.
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 01:23   #19
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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I think Zik fi/co needs a 2nd look at. They have 2 Co's and 1 fi yet they have a Fi pod... Usually zik get fr's and cr's for pods. but as JBG said they will have to steal them. If you change the Fi to a Co i think that will fix the problem, or change one of the CO's to a fi just to make things a little easier for zik.

Single targeting as people is very easy to attack with, i dont agree. I think its SO easy to defend every inc ever just by abusing certain ships. This past round there was only 1 fleet that was unstoppable, Cat Fi they could build 95% beetle and roid ANYONE they wanted regarless of value basicly. I dont think that should be done. They should have to build more ships to attack than just 1 ship and pods.
and then if they built 95% beetles? how often do you think they'll get roided? Hosie was the prime example of a pure XP cath planet last round and while he did awesome at the start.. he ended up drifting off at the end like most caths do. The highest ranking cath was someone who went Cath CR then only went beetles mid/end round to help cover incomings.

and i dont see why Zik Fi/Co looks vastly underpowered? Could it be that you simply want it buffed as thats the race/combo you want to play
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 01:44   #20
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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and i dont see why Zik Fi/Co looks vastly underpowered? Could it be that you simply want it buffed as thats the race/combo you want to play
How about we assume good faith, hm? If you have no arguments, don't go on here spouting ad hominem.
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 02:41   #21
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Re: Round 36 Stats

i dont think its underpowered i just think its a bit confused as far as zik stats go. It need some kind of unity of ship types to back itself. As it stands having only 1 ship in there pod class is kinda hard to attack with.
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 04:01   #22
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
So good players can make themselves immune to alot of incomings? So how exactly are they a good player?

To be a top player, you should of had to deal with alot of incomings and had to rely on alliance/galaxy defence to help deal with them. Not just get some nice value then go for the rest of the round with little/no incs.

So my point is.. If your a good player you should have to deal with incomings.
lol
I read through this, then again.
I must admit I am drunk, but u got to have been drunker while making this post!


your post is shit katie, seriously, I am disapoint! Very disapoint! haha
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 04:02   #23
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Re: Round 36 Stats

also, lets not make this to another single / multi target topic!
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 09:48   #24
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
i dont think its underpowered i just think its a bit confused as far as zik stats go. It need some kind of unity of ship types to back itself. As it stands having only 1 ship in there pod class is kinda hard to attack with.
Zik has, and will be, a race that is hard to attack with at first. The whole idea of zik(in my opinion anyhow) is that you have to steal ships in order to hopefully get a truly fantastic roidfleet. While I don't think ziks look as strong as they did last round they certainly don't look underpowered to me. I'm just glad zik, for once, actually start off with a fi or co pod as this is usually something one has had to steal(which could take a loooooong time).
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Unread 28 Feb 2010, 11:46   #25
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I think Zik fi/co needs a 2nd look at. They have 2 Co's and 1 fi yet they have a Fi pod... Usually zik get fr's and cr's for pods. but as JBG said they will have to steal them. If you change the Fi to a Co i think that will fix the problem, or change one of the CO's to a fi just to make things a little easier for zik.
I cannot for the life of me see how changing it to co would fix anything. In fact surely it'd make it even worse? They now have 2 ships to build sure but they target the same thing and now don't hit the eta class they're facing in ally defence. Either way I will not change this. There is a reason zik hasn't had fi/co pods for donkey's years, because they're very easy to overpower with that, and I'm far more concerned about that than I am about underpowering zik. I think they'll be a popular enough choice unless they're diabolically poor regardless.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 14:35   #26
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I cannot for the life of me see how changing it to co would fix anything. In fact surely it'd make it even worse? They now have 2 ships to build sure but they target the same thing and now don't hit the eta class they're facing in ally defence. Either way I will not change this. There is a reason zik hasn't had fi/co pods for donkey's years, because they're very easy to overpower with that, and I'm far more concerned about that than I am about underpowering zik. I think they'll be a popular enough choice unless they're diabolically poor regardless.
Well it may make zik stronger going the CO route, the problem I have is that the corsair is completely useless.
At least the smug trades with zik FR at the same init, it fires at ter/xan/etd as a primary target and has higher empr vs Cath(which makes up for the slighly lower damage ratio).

My suggestion would be:
Cutlass CO fires on FR - CO
Smug CO fires on DE - FI
Pod CO.

It would hurt and help zik at the same time. Harder to cap but a better potential overall fleet.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 15:22   #27
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Well it may make zik stronger going the CO route, the problem I have is that the corsair is completely useless.
At least the smug trades with zik FR at the same init, it fires at ter/xan/etd as a primary target and has higher empr vs Cath(which makes up for the slighly lower damage ratio).

My suggestion would be:
Cutlass CO fires on FR - CO
Smug CO fires on DE - FI
Pod CO.

It would hurt and help zik at the same time. Harder to cap but a better potential overall fleet.
I have to say that while I do think these changes are viable it's not the direction I'd like to go. I want the initial zik fi (or co) fleet to target both fi and co, and nothing else. So that while ally def against it will face damage, gal def is very viable until you steal. I exaggerated the difference on a/c vs d/c for the corsair and flipped the inits on both.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 20:48   #28
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Will there be any government changes?
since 40% of uni took the same one last round

might be nice to have them more equally distributed
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:11   #29
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Which one was that, corporatism?
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:16   #30
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Emp looks very strong. The Widow is overpowered: 160% efficient at T1, 150% at T2 and 100% at T3. It has a T3, but is also more efficient on its T1 and T2 than the Guardian and Tarantula.

I have a feeling with these stats everybody will go for the same metaclass. Fi/Co looks like a logical choice.
I'm starting to think last round's stats were not that bad after all. There is nothing interesting about these stats that would make me want to play.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:17   #31
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Which one was that, corporatism?
The one with the 40% research bonus!
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:24   #32
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
I have a feeling with these stats everybody will go for the same metaclass. Fi/Co looks like a logical choice.
I am afraid i have to agree on thatone...
Since every race has a fi or co fleet atm and people usually love fast eta.

I dont see why every race needs 3 podclasses tbh (its only used for faking).

Furthermore, i dont like the fact that etd is always a semi-cath race.
Now again, it has 5 EMP ships/2 norm/2 steal and 1 cloak.

IMO another cloak would make etd far more interesting to play.

Nevertheless, I want to thank JBG for the effort he puts in the stats again.
And dont listen to me too much, since i wont be playing (seriously) anymore.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:55   #33
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by BaasB View Post
Will there be any government changes?
since 40% of uni took the same one last round

might be nice to have them more equally distributed
My original governments were so awesome and then got so butchered

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
Emp looks very strong. The Widow is overpowered: 160% efficient at T1, 150% at T2 and 100% at T3. It has a T3, but is also more efficient on its T1 and T2 than the Guardian and Tarantula.
EMP isn't that strong. Well, it is strong, but it should be to avoid ****ing sucking. The only round cath has actually been properly overpowered was gate's outrageous r31 stats where you could basically roid the universe by building one ship (which in a multi-targeting environment is insane) which fired at like 170% efficiency. Nevertheless I weakened the widow a bit. I'm just not going to listen to criticism based on people complaining about t2s being more efficient than t1s in general though. If you want to complain about that or stuff like one race having more ships than another I'm sure I have an email address I never bother to open you can mail stuff to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baasb
I am afraid i have to agree on thatone...
Since every race has a fi or co fleet atm and people usually love fast eta.

I dont see why every race needs 3 podclasses tbh (its only used for faking).

Furthermore, i dont like the fact that etd is always a semi-cath race.
Now again, it has 5 EMP ships/2 norm/2 steal and 1 cloak.

IMO another cloak would make etd far more interesting to play.

Nevertheless, I want to thank JBG for the effort he puts in the stats again.
I was wondering how shit I'd have to make fi/co before everyone stopped thinking that. I just nerfed all the fi/co ships by about 5/6%. I think 3 pod classes makes your number of potential choices in a round a lot more interesting, I know that I always felt it did personally.

As far as etd being a semi-cath race it's a lot easier to balance as emp ships can roid something and be roided back by something. Less of those ships means it evolves more towards a brute force type round, which I'm not a massive fan of to be honest. I think there are lots of ways to avoid it if you want though. The only option likely to make you build more emp than kill ships is etd cr+whatever. Nonetheless I tweaked up all the etd ships (again) a bit there.

And you're welcome. I probably enjoy stats creation more than actually playing the game these days to be honest though so it's quite interesting for me.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 21:59   #34
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Re: Round 36 Stats

As an alliance, you can't go wrong with Cath/Xan Fi/Co+Bomber/Widow, only Xan Cr will a bit painful to stop, but not too big a problem.

And maybe other Co will be a bit hard to stop unless you invest considerably in Locust.
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Unread 1 Mar 2010, 22:08   #35
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Okay I just nerfed every single one of those ships. And improved some of the ones that would normally oppose them. Thanks for the help guys.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 00:13   #36
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Which one was that, corporatism?
Alot of players went for CR/BS, so they wanted the research bonus over income, last round it was Demo which the majority of players went. However, i dont think we will have that problem with these stats as Fi/Co seems extremly viable and usually favored (even when balanced).

I went cath/corp this round and research was so painfully slow, although it did give me a huge income boost compared to the rest of top planets.. I think when i was equal on roids with tobbe, i was infact making 300k more resources a tick

So although Demo was hugely popular last round, i think its corp which may need to be slightly nerfed this round.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 00:19   #37
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Will you name one of the Terran pods the Hungry Hungry Hippo?

Last edited by Cowch; 2 Mar 2010 at 00:22. Reason: Left out a Hungry
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 00:25   #38
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Will you name one of the Terran pods the Hungry Hungry Hippo?
Mz is in charge of ship names/descriptions. I was just going to give him my login and password to do them but appoco made him sign up a separate account
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 00:58   #39
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Fair enough. He can see my plea as well.

Would be nice to know if we will have private gals so I can start planning my de fortress. Yes, I play fortress because I am lazy and not very good.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 02:08   #40
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Denied. NEXT!
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 05:27   #41
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Dragon Battleship Cr Bs - Norm 7 1 95 54 95 580 440 400 <-- looks like there is a typo in the cost of the Dragon
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 07:50   #42
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Yeah I'm worried that we will see an abundance of fi\co too to be honest.
However, I'm not really sure how to prevent it without completely nerfing the fleets tho.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 10:50   #43
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Re: Round 36 Stats

i predict it will be a massive FI/Co round again.
Maybe the people rushing BS/CR early will have a early easy roiding. But that won't work all round.
And, unless like r34, when Apprime went BS heavy with pillagers for defense, there's no way any other class might have chances this round ...
i revealed my strategy ...

Anyway, ETD CR a bit better in armour/empres than xan. but it could use a cloak ship there ...

One more thing: cloak FI have better empres than the others?
beetle efficiency against sentinel 105% and against the other fi's > 130%?
it's not a major difference, but it should be the other way: cloak ships more easy to freeze than the normal ones, specially against ter ships. Can it be fixed in some way?
Same applies to DE class: emp efficiency against ter DE almost same as xan DE and even worse against etd DE.
JBG: Something to look a bit deeper?

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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 10:59   #44
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Well, I think that when there are three podclasses(usually one in each metaclass) people are 'always' going to go for the fico class as it has the lowest eta and its always popular for allydef.

I can easily see Ter BS + Harp, Zik CR\BS + Cutlass working though.
FR\DE fleets will probably fare well as usual, but I think they will struggle if there is an abundance of fico(which I think it will be) around.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 11:38   #45
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Re: Round 36 Stats

And Lince, do we really need to care whether xan has higher emp res in some ships? I mean, it's just semantics, the most important thing is if the stats are balanced or not.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 12:19   #46
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Re: Round 36 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Dragon Battleship Cr Bs - Norm 7 1 95 54 95 580 440 400 <-- looks like there is a typo in the cost of the Dragon
Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Yeah I'm worried that we will see an abundance of fi\co too to be honest.
However, I'm not really sure how to prevent it without completely nerfing the fleets tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
i predict it will be a massive FI/Co round again.
Maybe the people rushing BS/CR early will have a early easy roiding. But that won't work all round.
And, unless like r34, when Apprime went BS heavy with pillagers for defense, there's no way any other class might have chances this round ...
i revealed my strategy ...
I have now nerfed fi/co + relatively improved certain fr/de/cr/bs ships for the third time (once myself, once after baasb and patrikc talked about it and again just now). At this point I'd have to wonder precisely how bad fi/co need to be before people think they're balanced? I don't want people to look at them and just go **** it, they're unplayable.

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Originally Posted by lince
One more thing: cloak FI have better empres than the others?
beetle efficiency against sentinel 105% and against the other fi's > 130%?
it's not a major difference, but it should be the other way: cloak ships more easy to freeze than the normal ones, specially against ter ships. Can it be fixed in some way?
Same applies to DE class: emp efficiency against ter DE almost same as xan DE and even worse against etd DE.
JBG: Something to look a bit deeper?
This was accidental initially (ie it just worked out due to costs, note the fact the actual e/r is at 0). It can be changed yeah but to be honest I sort of like it this way. Good for ally def but you can't just invest into a pod class ship, although it is useful in attack. In general though I think the emp should always be better against xan to be a load of cock and I don't really care about it to be honest. Anyways it's now frozen by the spider at 144 and the defender at 120.

I'm wondering what you mean about emp efficiency even worse against etd de though? The fact terran de is easier to freeze is deliberate as it's the only single class "cover-all" fleet, with etd and xan de both requiring anti-de in some other ship.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 12:33   #47
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Re: Round 36 Stats

I really think it takes a lot to properly underpower fico, but I'd say after the 3 downgradings it has to have become 'bad enough' I guess?

I'll see if I get some time to look at efficiencies and such later today for the fico ships.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 12:35   #48
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Good for ally def but you can't just invest into a pod class ship, although it is useful in attack.
Very useful in attack, since it's init 3 and targets DE t1, specially when attacking ter/xan/etd.
But, yeah, i think it will be used mainly on defense due to lower init.

When i posted, i asked if it could be fixed, you didn't needed to change just to please me, was just pointing out what could be a flaw.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm wondering what you mean about emp efficiency even worse against etd de though? The fact terran de is easier to freeze is deliberate as it's the only single class "cover-all" fleet, with etd and xan de both requiring anti-de in some other ship.
Ok, saw the point.

And, yeah, overall i like the stats: lots of possible combos. But i still think uni might go fi/co. I hope i'm wrong.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 12:44   #49
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Re: Round 36 Stats

There's a fine margin sometimes between a flaw and a feature!

Largely the universe divides itself into two groups, follow the herd and do what you always did. Some people will also go for certain combos just because they always have etc. Some people will always do what people say is the best option (without really looking at it themselves.
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Unread 2 Mar 2010, 13:42   #50
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Re: Round 36 Stats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post


I have now nerfed fi/co + relatively improved certain fr/de/cr/bs ships for the third time (once myself, once after baasb and patrikc talked about it and again just now). At this point I'd have to wonder precisely how bad fi/co need to be before people think they're balanced? I don't want people to look at them and just go **** it, they're unplayable.
as long as fi/co are equally shit compared to eachother, they are still equally awesome. FR/DE just isnt an option to fi/co incs with most of the time, so the only way to get people to not pick fi/co for attack is to have fi/co class ship(s) which is good against it.
Atm I dont see that, and since ALL have fi/co pod classes it will also be hard to give 1 race a good anti fi/co ship fi/co class without overpowering it.
Also there are 2 pretty good fi/co ships which are emp, remove that and it is also easier to stop em. Not saying you should, but I think thats the way to go if u dont want a fi/co round. I like fi/co rounds though!
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