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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 04:46   #1
Makhil
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Xan a bad choice this round ?

I'm seeing some kind of paradox here... Xans are really good, that's why they will fail.
They're good, and they're plenty... the problem is that the Sentinel is damn effective against Fi fleets. Capping roids atm is very tough. Usually the beginnig of rounds belong to Xans, but this time they struggle, their armour look even thinner than before and they lose loads of shippies (value).
The solutions I can see are:
- teaming up with Caths
- try and steal some beetles with the Tzen (picking lowbie caths with enough of them won't be easy).

Any other idea ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 05:03   #2
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
The solutions I can see are:
- teaming up with Caths
- try and steal some beetles with the Tzen (picking lowbie caths with enough of them won't be easy).
Well, Beetles wont help you because 1) Beetles are CO and TBT steal FI, and 2) Beetles target FI and Sents are CO .

What you want are Spiders (which now i think about it is prolly what you meant ), however if you escort your FI fleet with Arrowheads, then that will discourage the use of Sents. I mentioned that in the Xandathrii Fleet componision thread - i think Xans will have a tough time at the start, but will come out to shine very soon, when the focus on FI/CO is reduced as Crusier and Battleships fleets (which are now available i might add) become more prominant - and deadly.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 05:56   #3
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, Beetles wont help you because 1) Beetles are CO and TBT steal FI, and 2) Beetles target FI and Sents are CO .

What you want are Spiders (which now i think about it is prolly what you meant ), however if you escort your FI fleet with Arrowheads, then that will discourage the use of Sents. I mentioned that in the Xandathrii Fleet componision thread - i think Xans will have a tough time at the start, but will come out to shine very soon, when the focus on FI/CO is reduced as Crusier and Battleships fleets (which are now available i might add) become more prominant - and deadly.
Xans major problem is that they'll grow large, and get eaten alive by the cats. The cathaar CR fleet is this rounds winner, and Xan has no defense whatsoever against it.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 07:29   #4
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
The cathaar CR fleet is this rounds winner, and Xan has no defense whatsoever against it.
Whilst i tend to agree, i dont think it is quite that black and white. The nature of Peacekeepers (and Xans in general) is that it doesnt take many of them to fire to suggenly make it too expensive to land. I think that even a fairly small number of Scarabs sent to defend a Xan will suffice - as the Xan will largely be able to defend themself.

Its a bit like Cathaar - they tend to be able to stun virtually all the incoming, but need just that little bit extra to finish it off .

I wouldnt write Xans off too much, just yet .
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 07:30   #5
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Harpies - Fi
Spiders - Co
Vsh - Fr
Pulsar - De
Dagger - Roid

steal, win.

This round for now, these very early stages etc. belong to the cr/bs indeed.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 07:32   #6
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

If anything, Sandman's suggests that Ziks might be in a little trouble atm - Terran figures are typically distorted by new players going Terran, though i have found Terran and Zik incoming the easiest to defend against (though i admit i am finding attacking a bit hard).
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 09:22   #7
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
What you want are Spiders (which now i think about it is prolly what you meant ).
Yep, beetles, spiders I always mix up the names

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
however if you escort your FI fleet with Arrowheads, then that will discourage the use of Sents.)
problem is early on, people didn't use unit scan, and later on they won't be able to tell if there is arrows in your fleet... will that be enough to discourage them ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 11:11   #8
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

xan till the end!
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 11:59   #9
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
xan till the end!
same here altho i am finding it more difficult to land
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 15:44   #10
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

I think Xan will do good but you are right about the fighter fleet. A few beetles and a few sentinels sent to defend and you're pretty much screwed. Attack with Arrowheads too and the defenders can counter with Spiders, Corsairs (not that anybody will build Corsairs) and Arrowheads of their own. The problem with Arrowheads also is that they shoot at the same time as other Arrowheads (obviously ) and after Sentinels, so they won't reduce your losses in any way.

I don't see this as too big a problem though. The low eta of the Xan fighter fleet is a huge advantage after all. Once our eta research is done you only have 3 ticks to get in-galaxy defence anyway.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 02:07   #11
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Xans far too weak this round

I looked at a battle-calc from rnd 13 and rnd 14 and found some very disturbing results. Against a Zik no doubt! Where before I thoroughly trounced his fleet, in the manner that Xans are supposed to against Ziks, and in this round, I see that I'll be losing most of my ships, despite my target and I having a very similar value. What happened? Was it that other races complained too much about the advantages of the Xandathrii? I can understand the need for a bit of balance, but this is more than excessive.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 02:35   #12
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Re: Xans far too weak this round

usually Xans have an easy ride at the beginning of the round. This time things appear to be different. They'll have to get their ETA down, and wait for more ship types to come into play (more diverse fleets, def ships less concentrated on Fi). Only then we will know what Xans are worth. Part of their problem is also that their own anti Fi (sentinel) is so good in def, and with the high number of xan around, landing has been very costly (sure their armour going thinner each round doesn't help).
TBH i don't feel very confident, when you think their 2 main threat (Cath CR and Terran BS) have yet to appear...
That will be a very challenging round but look at the bright side, if xans are too weak this round (like caths were in r13) they'll benefit from some positive tweaks for r15 (hopefully).
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 02:41   #13
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Re: Xans far too weak this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog
I looked at a battle-calc from rnd 13 and rnd 14 and found some very disturbing results. Against a Zik no doubt! Where before I thoroughly trounced his fleet, in the manner that Xans are supposed to against Ziks, and in this round, I see that I'll be losing most of my ships, despite my target and I having a very similar value. What happened? Was it that other races complained too much about the advantages of the Xandathrii? I can understand the need for a bit of balance, but this is more than excessive.
Zikonians have become stronger against Xandathrii FI fleets, but weaker against Cathaar CR (In particular) and Terran Battleship fleets. Futher, the stealing ability of the zikonians have been tempered down somewhat, and thus they will be capping less useful ships (short of farming them, heh) less often. Last round, a Zik with even 5k TBT was effectively untouchable by a Xan - this round, it will be longer/more difficult before Ziks are in such a strong position.

Also, i feel that Xans will have a tough time when there is so much focus on deafeating FI/CO fleets this round - ie, in the early stages. There is considerable pressure for Ziks to build more of their heavier classes of ships as they target more usefull classes for them - thus neglecting their FR and thus providing an opportunity for Xans to rush Ziks with Vsh again.

However, Xan FI fleets this round are also more effective against Terrans - the Pulsar in particular is a superb ship. Once Terrans realise that their DE fleets are too easily covered and move onto Battleships, Xans will soon find themselves able to take on most terrans with a Pulsar/Sent/Dagger combo.

Having said all of that, you might be right - Xan is probably weaker this round, and at the very least much weaker at this stage of the game. I believe that they will improve in the very near future (indeed, i hope they do as i am a Xan ), however we obviously dont know what is going to happen yet.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 02:43   #14
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Re: Xans far too weak this round

Btw, shouldnt this be in PD or Strategy - not Suggestions?
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 03:06   #15
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Re: Xans far too weak this round

Mods: merge with this thread: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?p=2913806
?
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 18:38   #16
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Xand are pretty decent.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 19:42   #17
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Thank you for that gem of wisdom. I see Xans in a whole new light now!
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 20:03   #18
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

what, you want me to tell all how to do well? where's the fun in that.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 20:21   #19
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Re: Xans far too weak this round

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog
I looked at a battle-calc from rnd 13 and rnd 14 and found some very disturbing results. Against a Zik no doubt! Where before I thoroughly trounced his fleet, in the manner that Xans are supposed to against Ziks, and in this round, I see that I'll be losing most of my ships, despite my target and I having a very similar value. What happened? Was it that other races complained too much about the advantages of the Xandathrii? I can understand the need for a bit of balance, but this is more than excessive.
You will only lose most of your ships if you are attacking with the wrong ships. hitting a zik with mass vsh will kill/make him run therefore giving you 0 loss capping...
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 23:14   #20
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Ziks sucks arse - and im zik
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 03:12   #21
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotatrix
Ziks sucks arse - and im zik
I think people have learnt from last round. They don't donate their shippies as easily (apart from pods).
Caths toping the rankings early could be a blessing. The swarms of xan Fi will be able to get big score boost when they team up and overrun caths anti Fi.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 06:26   #22
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
The swarms of xan Fi will be able to get big score boost when they team up and overrun caths anti Fi.
Well with a little luck the caths (this one at least) will have lots of stolen sents by then.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 12:57   #23
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

lots of stolen sents... this requires more than just luck. Why would a xan keep his sents at home vs a cath attack ?
You can get a few, but a lot, no way without farming... and in this case the Xan could steal some spiders too (this would take care of the sents).
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 17:05   #24
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Well, my battle report from this morning shows about 150 each of stolen Sents and Arrowheads
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 18:41   #25
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

yeah I picked up my 1st 200 sents last night
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 23:59   #26
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

bah, i only own 500 sents and I can build them :\
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 10:39   #27
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

I think you're all overlooking Ziks; you can get a lot of free ships with a decent sized fleet. In my last battle, I only had 100 thieves and I managed to grab 480 Terr ships while only losing a few of mine.I'm sure that was just luck, but its still pretty convincing to me...
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 18:49   #28
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

the problem with xan is not the peacekeeper, its not cath cr, its not that they have weak armour, its none of that, the problem is there research takes years. Last round myself and storebo were xandathrii and one of us chose peacekeeper route, the other chose scans, while a cath can have both by the time either of xans route is chosen. It is a major hinderence on xan because unless xan sacrafices eta for big ships (which they only use in defence) then they arent going to really be able to cover themselves for a good while. And once caths get bigger all they need to do is outflak the peacekeepers with a roach/hornet combo, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Two solutions come to mind

A - allow xan to have quicker research time
B - make the xan another class

However im sure both these options would disrupt the game mechanics :/
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 00:56   #29
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
B - make the xan another class
What do you mean by that? And, to an extent, it is easier for Xans to catch up now that there are no cruiser/battleship classed ships, though this is only a slight inprovement.
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 01:47   #30
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

the race specific bonuses need an overhaul.

that's been said for quite a while, last I checked many agreed with me too, but i guess it was just "not gotten round to".

story of this game's life :/
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 00:50   #31
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

the slow research is getting on my nerves tbh
but you don't hear me complaining about the lack of armor, since the ships cost practicly nothin
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 13:21   #32
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

If your writing off zik this early, your not playing them properly :/
In about 3 days ive stolen 5k fi with my fr fleet, which is pretty damn decent, xan just seem to be throwing their vsh at me.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 21:11   #33
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
If your writing off zik this early, your not playing them properly :/
In about 3 days ive stolen 5k fi with my fr fleet, which is pretty damn decent, xan just seem to be throwing their vsh at me.
:-o Farm.
There must be a dagger in there at least.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 21:49   #34
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
the slow research is getting on my nerves tbh
but you don't hear me complaining about the lack of armor, since the ships cost practicly nothin
doesnt make sense
the ratio armor/cost is still terrible, but thats Xan.
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Unread 2 Aug 2005, 11:36   #35
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
:-o Farm.
There must be a dagger in there at least.
one or two \o/
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Unread 9 Aug 2005, 09:58   #36
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

its difficult to get a balanced xan fleet this rd.. stats for xand isnt very favourable. yes being different races each has own weaknesses . well reading this thread has helped me. hopefully i can get a better balanced xand fleet.
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Unread 9 Aug 2005, 10:01   #37
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
the problem with xan is not the peacekeeper, its not cath cr, its not that they have weak armour, its none of that, the problem is there research takes years. Last round myself and storebo were xandathrii and one of us chose peacekeeper route, the other chose scans, while a cath can have both by the time either of xans route is chosen. It is a major hinderence on xan because unless xan sacrafices eta for big ships (which they only use in defence) then they arent going to really be able to cover themselves for a good while. And once caths get bigger all they need to do is outflak the peacekeepers with a roach/hornet combo, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Two solutions come to mind

A - allow xan to have quicker research time
B - make the xan another class

However im sure both these options would disrupt the game mechanics :/
Xans can have a pod fleet just with Fighter Class Hulls, Terrans and Ziks cannot. Terrans, Cats and Ziks need to research Siege Weapons to get all their ships, Xans do not.

This more than makes up for the +10% research time that Xans have.
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Unread 9 Aug 2005, 20:14   #38
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
This more than makes up for the +10% research time that Xans have.
I wouldn't go quite that far - but it does help.
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 00:40   #39
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

depends on the time of the game.

Later on the -10% certainly hurts.
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 10:55   #40
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

I think its been pretty much said, the sentinel likes to eat attacking xans.

Ziks however are very hard this round to get anywhere. We all know most players run when they see a Zik they cant scan so all you get is a handful of rocks. Eventually someone flies in and takes them away from you as you still cannot steal anything.

I dunno whether players have got wise to ship stealing or not, I ahve no idea. But as an experienced zik, I'm just not having much luck.
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Unread 10 Aug 2005, 23:32   #41
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
I wouldn't go quite that far - but it does help.
Yeah, I guess you're right. For a Cat with 20% research labs and Research on priority 1 it takes 39 hours to research Siege Weapons. The vast majority of the non Xans in the Universe won't be this quick though, it'll take them more like 50 ticks. So for a Xan to recuperate (for wont of a better word ) these 50 ticks the game would have to last 500 ticks. Obviously the game lasts a lot longer than that so Xans are still at a disadvantage when it comes to Research.

Still, I don't see this as a problem, it's just one of the disadvantages of the Xans. Let's not forget that Xans currently have the second highest average score in the Universe, something which I think is not likely to change before the round ends.

And for Xans to have a Research advantage over most other planets for the first 500 ticks of the game is a huge advantage too. The beginning is all important after all.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 13:33   #42
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

The tide has just turned - for me anyway.

As a top 100 Xan 2 days ago I've suffered 9 waves of Terran BS/Cr and Cath Cr which I simply have no defence against. My alliance did what it could (next to nothing) and my galaxy was asleep. Next tick I'll have less than 200 roids.

I think it's safe to say that I'll never recover from this - although that won't stop me trying.
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Unread 11 Aug 2005, 14:12   #43
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Cathaar CR fleets mean you need to have pks AND scarabs defending you to avoid getting owned.
Terran BS/CR fleets are also quite annoying, since ghosts just die before shooting at the BS. Peacekeepers get stolen by the wyvern, making it quite difficult to scare a terran away.
But at least xans don't get pwnd like Caths like round, and they can KILL
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Unread 17 Aug 2005, 14:23   #44
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Xans are the best at keeping their roids of all the races. Simple as that.
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Unread 17 Aug 2005, 15:12   #45
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Xans are the best at keeping their roids of all the races. Simple as that.
Kindly tell that to me attackers plz, thx
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Unread 17 Aug 2005, 17:10   #46
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

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Kindly tell that to me attackers plz, thx
I'm not saying it's not easy to roid a Xan
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Unread 18 Aug 2005, 10:27   #47
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

You've got that right - I now have less than 20 roids.
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Unread 18 Aug 2005, 10:30   #48
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

xan were shafted by the late changes. and i think a quick look at sandmans will reflect this
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Unread 18 Aug 2005, 12:36   #49
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
xan were shafted by the late changes. and i think a quick look at sandmans will reflect this
Well, at least it will demonstrate my argument, which i said till i was blue in the face, that you dont solve the 'cath' problem by making them 1.5 times more efficient than they were before.

Maybe, just maybe, furbeh will realise the error of his ways and repent .
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Unread 18 Aug 2005, 14:04   #50
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Re: Xan a bad choice this round ?

I like Cath like this, actually. If there weren't so many Xans, Xan would be a decent race as well. Oh, and I'd upgrade the Peacekeeper a bit.


I still, still, STILL think that a seperate EMP resistance column is needed. But ignore me, etc. It'll never happen.
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