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Unread 9 Dec 2011, 10:55   #101
Tiamat101
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Umm.. first of all I couldnt reall parse most of that however i will disprove your point.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gq8sa5128odv4q7
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=jvlpjxb0ugdas5a

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=s7yjvlpjxb0ugda
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=qbcacdhcsdxfd28

Ter are VERY hard to hit you need pretty significant team ups and even then 1 ingal def fleet from etd/Ter will cover a large team.

If your not intersted in De play:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7dc1r5zqhooqaj6
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=l0ncyi8krmndsse
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=vlpjxb0ugdas5aw

As far as im concerned Ter might be a Bit too strong atm. Unless specifically built Versus Ter will be Unhittable.

As for the Pegasus, if i made it faster than the banshee then de would have 2 ships at faster init that Fi/co.
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Unread 9 Dec 2011, 18:26   #102
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Them de calcs show.me with xp and.roid gain I'd land them all so you prooved nothing there the cr calcs look more effective but if a player had harpy and I was xan with thay pathtic fleet why would I even hit it your not getting the point so ill wait till stats closer to finished then ill proove if there wrong with real calcs not calcs which you make to try proove your point
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Unread 9 Dec 2011, 19:27   #103
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Demort i think what Tia is trying to say is your only gonna land on Ter for a sizable value loss - and thats if they get no defence - you had 1 30k vsh fleet to the cat and xan calcs and suddenly attacking losses are epic.

Yes Cr is probably more effiecent attacking but Ter DE planets will get little incs for the most part and a decent galaxy can cover up a gal raid quite easily. In PA its more about holding roids than gaining them for the most part - Ter DE will hold its roids better than any other setup
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Unread 9 Dec 2011, 21:10   #104
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

The other thing i'd like to point out is it all comes down to Value Ratio's. Sure its easy for me to make those calcs pre-round but when the round starts you wont find planets with 80% of there fleet value in 1 class UNLESS they are Fr/de. Alot of alliances wont allow people to play with 80/20. Infact most of the good alliances want either 50/50 or 60/40. So your 60% value fleet vs my 90-100% value fleet WIll never be able to land solo unless you are much much greater value than me AND are building a lot of anti fr/de. Almost all Fi/Co planets will built anti Fi/co, as that is what will likely be defending them. So they have just enough anti fr/de to stop the random in gal fr/de ship but not usually enough to stop a pure fr/de planet.

Aside from that fr/de Strats really only work if either of these things occur. 1) The stats do not allow fi/co to be viable or 2) You Fort you gal with 4-8 Fr/de planets and all cross defend. With these stats Fi/co is Viable so you'd likely be going with Fr/De Forts. A lot of people will say that Fr/De strat sucks because of 3 meta classes to worry about, but Fr/de Generally isn't an attack option its a defensive option. 50-60 roids a night and you never get attacked or roided and any time you do its a salvage fest. Eventually it will take 8-10 fleets to properly try and roid you, at which point you get pl'd def, you use fakes in gal or just fc/retal the attackers.

Ter will not have a problem with these stats personally I think Ter are slightly better than the other 4 races. However just because i think so doesn't actually mean they are.

I made these stats with the intention that every fleet is different and every race can be played differently. You will notice 2 things in these stats, I have no Same Init Ships firing at each other. I have no ships that T1 there own ship type(except the spectre which is not in an attack class).

As for your precious Pegasus I will likely not change the init, If i did it would make De Way too strong because they would have 2 ships that out init ALL fi/co that shoot fr/de. Need to make it so De doesn't get out of hand. What I will do is improve the damage the pegasus does so that if you do get enough flack atleast they will do some damage.
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Unread 10 Dec 2011, 14:11   #105
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

All the calcs are useless unless salvage is fixed...

You can't use calcs which adds 50% extra salvage and NOT nerfed cuz of score.

All calcs should be done on top planet to make it realistic.
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Unread 10 Dec 2011, 14:15   #106
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Just to prove my point I'm using your own calcs:

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=j6kcb3hwv471siy
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=s5aw7rx6mrim4px
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=iswpk2jxink8kvp
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=bl0ncyi8krmndss
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=w1zp33mva1copxj

Which means ALL THE CALCS U HAVE POSTED ARE EASY LANDS / CHICKEN LANDS.

I.e. your stats sucks.
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Unread 10 Dec 2011, 16:46   #107
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

IE Every stats will suck because there is no way to make being a top planet not Suck, unless one race and strat are better than the rest. Those calcs were done equal value vs equal value planets. The reason the attack fleets have less value is to compensate for them not having 100% fi/co value, an actual planet will have 20-40% total value as a defense fleet which obv will not be included in the calc.

As far as salvage goes i would honestly like to have salvage returned to what it was before the nerf. Right now being a top planet means you litterlly can not defend vs anything. 1 well placed crasher means that you lose 500k value.
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Unread 10 Dec 2011, 19:58   #108
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

nevermind, no need to flame more :P

Last edited by Henrik; 10 Dec 2011 at 20:40.
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Unread 11 Dec 2011, 01:32   #109
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

The stats have been Updated. The main changes:
Xan D/C decreased ~~ 50
Spectre init -10 a/c & d/c increased
Widow changed entirely.
Ter De A/c increased
Zik D/c increased a bit
Cath Emp eff's increased on some ships


The goal of these changes was to make Xan Fr a bit weaker. As it was too strong at present. I Welcome people to approach me with VALID arguments of change. The Forums or IRC(TiA) are good ways to talk to me. However the biggest change that i hope will come is the change to the salvage rules. Appocomaster and I talked briefly about it and i hope that a change will be made.

My next task is going to find a way for Xan Fi to exist Without creating a suicide defense option for them.
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Unread 11 Dec 2011, 09:16   #110
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Ter can roid: DE = Cath, CR = Cath, Xan, etd
Ter is roided by: Cath CO/BS, Etd BS

Cath can roid: CO = all, BS = all
Cath is roided by: all

Xan can roid: FI = Zik, (cath), FR = Xan, Cath, Zik, etd
Xan is roided by: Ter CR, Cath CO/BS, Zik CR, Xan FR

Zik can roid: FR = Cath, CR = etd, (xan), cath
Zik is roided by: Etd DE, Xan FI/FR, Cath CO/BS

Etd can roid: DE = etd, zik, cath BS = cath, ter
Etd is roided by: Etd DE, Zik CR, Xan FR, Cath CO/BS, Ter CR

Last edited by Henrik; 11 Dec 2011 at 09:48.
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Unread 11 Dec 2011, 09:32   #111
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Etd
We need to do so ETD dont have 2 ships thats solo cover ter DE.

Drakes should have FR,DE - and maybe pegs init 5 or D/C on tycoons should be a lot lower and pegs d/c + a/c higher.


Zik
Cutters should be CR DE, instead of DE BS, init should be 1 lower than ter CR, (i.e. cutter init 6, wyv init 7, bomb init 8)


i'll check some more later
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Unread 11 Dec 2011, 09:48   #112
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Ter:
Gryphon BS CR DE --> CR BS DE makes em able to roid zik's depending more on fleet combo.
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 17:57   #113
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Cathaar (Cat)

The Cathaar race are a humanoid feline race highly progressed in the field of non harmful attack. Cathaar can only kill half of the ship types, but they can EMP (stun) any ship in the game. They do high-level EMP damage, and so can often take on bigger planets for few losses. However, when heavily outnumbered, they often suffer heavy defeats.

Needs an update then
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 21:15   #114
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Along with two dozen other manual pages.

Very relevant to ship stat balance, by the way!
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 21:54   #115
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Ok, i made a the last MAJOR changes unless presented with calcs that would warrant other changes. The rest of the changes will be made to ship cost/damage/ER/Armor.

Changes:
Scarab init 2
Viper init 3
Cutlass Co-> Fi T1->Co T2-> Fi
Cath Emp efficiency's reworked.

I will not be making major stat changes because people "want there favorite race to be better I've made these stats with the intent that all 5 races are playable and all 6 classes are playable.

I am hoping to get appocomaster to change salvage in a way that It would only affect people of higher value, instead of the trickle down effect it has now. Ideally i'd like it be the way it was 5 rounds ago. I am also looking into changing the government stats up hopefully introducing some spice into those. I also would like to update the race stats a bit. Suggestions on that are welcome as well.
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 22:12   #116
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Race stats are supposed to be designed in conjunction with ship stats.
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 23:12   #117
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Please leave governments as they are, they are one of the few areas balanced enough to offer a genuine debate and choice after they were changed a few rounds back.
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Unread 13 Dec 2011, 23:49   #118
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Honestly I think that for at least 50% of all planets, Totalitarianism is the best gov by a fair margin, but it's hard for people to think long-term. Democracy on the other hand is one of the weaker governments (excluding scanners/covoppers), but offers a lot of short-term options through research, which is why a lot of people pick it.

Which brings me to the question; what is true balance? When all options are chosen equally by the playerbase, or when the actual power level of governments are equal? And who/what decides power level?

<asking PATeam to program an AI that can calculate perfect balance>


Back onto stats; I think Bs' inability to kill fr/de will keep a lot of players/groups away from that option.
Might as well give Cath Fr pods btw! Though it might tip the scales a little bit... (Xan Fr :3) Really though... Scarab? Who is going to build that?
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Unread 14 Dec 2011, 00:18   #119
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Ok, balance isn't a good word, but what I mean is that people still debate it and don't agree on the best path to take, which is fairly rare for choices in planetarion.
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Unread 14 Dec 2011, 01:08   #120
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

'Balanced enough' was an accurate statement.

Just saying some minor number adjustments are welcome, and would keep things interesting.
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Unread 14 Dec 2011, 02:20   #121
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Last change for a while, I promise.

Cutlass T2-> De

Changed to prevent stupid def calcs for cutlass vs xan fi.
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Unread 17 Dec 2011, 23:45   #122
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I am Finished with all my changes to the Stats, and baring some massive oversight I am going to say the stats are Finished.

I would like to see the race/gov stats changed to atleast make them different.
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 10:23   #123
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

would a glaring oversight be the fact there are no SK's???

I cant see any reason for not having them thats all and no disacussion anywhere as to why there arent any
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 10:25   #124
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

:D

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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 10:57   #125
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I havent included them because there isnt a reason for them to be in beta stats. I was also unsure if people still wanted them in the stats. Or if 1 should be given to every race. But believe me the thought of Sk's are on my mind and I haven't decided yet on what to do about them.

As for some changes to the stats once the beta server come back online, I am going to change Ter a bit. To help fix a few problems.
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 11:09   #126
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I havent included them because there isnt a reason for them to be in beta stats. I was also unsure if people still wanted them in the stats. Or if 1 should be given to every race. But believe me the thought of Sk's are on my mind and I haven't decided yet on what to do about them.
Personally, I don't think it's the place of the stats maker should get to decide whether SKing is possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
As for some changes to the stats once the beta server come back online, I am going to change Ter a bit. To help fix a few problems.
So... not final, then.
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 11:18   #127
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Mz, that was my point. I have no intention of making that choice on my own. But as of the past 5-6 rounds people have brought up whether or not we should still include SK's, and if we should give them to all 5 races.
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Unread 19 Dec 2011, 00:30   #128
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Silly as it sounds, SKs have very little to do with stats, or at least with balancing them.
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Unread 19 Dec 2011, 02:12   #129
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I like the mix between ST and MT stats.
The "Ghost" seems a little underpowered though considering he has only T1 he should be little stronger or at least have lower init.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 00:43   #130
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Stats are now final.

Changes:
Phoenix init 7->4 t1->co t2->Fi
Harpy T1-> de T2-> fr
Wvyren init 6->5

Vshaak t1-> fi t2-> Co
Ghost init 6-> 4
Spirit t1-> fi T2->Co

Eff upgrade on Phantom
Eff changes on Ter/zik fr/de
I am going to add sk's in.
ter: Bs
Cath: Cr
Xan: Bs
Zik: Bs
Etd: Cr

I intend to also change the zik racial traits:

Max Stealth: 82 (+7)
Stealth Growth/Tick: 8(+2)
Base Construction Units: 100
Base Research Points: 115(+10)
Production bonus: 25%(+5)
Universe Trade Tax: 25%

Those are the only Racial Changes I want so far.


As for government changes I have a few idea but I honestly doubt if appocomaster will change any of the race/Gov stats
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 01:05   #131
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Stats are now final.
i hope that isnt true or if it is they are final but wont ever be used.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 07:04   #132
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

How about you elaborate on that Reicarnate instead of just saying " I hope not."

They may not look like the stats that you are use to seeing. Because they are balanced. I tried VERY hard to not make 1 race or 1 ship type or even 1 strategy the best. If you want to show me how these stats are otherwise i'd be happy to talk to you on IRC and explain the stats.

I am sorry the standard "everyone go xan/Cat fi/co" will not be the best nor the worst strat. My goal was to allow for all options and seeing now that we are adding 2 close to 50 sized alliances the more options available the more interesting the political situation will become.

So unless you want a detail description of how these stats were created and balanced then please keep the flaming to yourselves and try and post substantive response.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 09:03   #133
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I'd say that they look an ok set of stats, no worse than previous rounds, though i would question why the change on the init of the ghost? Now fires before all DE and seeing as no fr hits fr the only ships bar emp that fire first are cr/bs.....
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 09:07   #134
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

i will ellaborate as soon as i get a chance tia. it just happened to be well passed my bedtime.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 09:30   #135
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

What has convinced you that Zik need a significant buff to most of their race bonuses?

Isn't having 9/20 of last rounds top planets enough?
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 10:02   #136
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
What has convinced you that Zik need a significant buff to most of their race bonuses?

Isn't having 9/20 of last rounds top planets enough?
Well Part of that was because they had a ship(rogue) that was faster than all the available def. Since the pulsar was super slow and they also fired before the corsair Zik was able to roid just about anything. On top of that they also had the Cutter which made them unhittable by Fi. Zik this past round had a good attack class and a VERY hard to roid def fleet.

As for this round since I am not giving them a fast anti fi/co ship i felt it was nessicary to buff them up a bit. Now that said I didnt want them to be to good so i had to vary the eff's and make some ships good and some ships not as good.

As for the change to the ghost. It was prompted by the change to the phoenix. I made Ter a bit too strong and Xan a bit too weak. Now Ter have good anti fi/co, but i made it so that xan fr can effectively attack w/o getting Drake def, this making ter a bit weaker. I am not worried about ter being too weak as they stand i think they may still be a tad too powerful with there Cr fleet and Phoenix. So I may have to drop the D/C on the wvyren down just a bit to compensate for that.

And Colt I am not that worried because every round there are ships that fire first and Xan is usually that race. But if you take a look at how low the Xan A/c is espeically on the Fr's you'll see that just get EATEN alive by everything. So having that high init comes at a cost. They might be good but if even a touch of emp or even just enough flack gets put in front of them they will Cry.

If anyone would like to debate the stats with me they are more than welcome to pm me on IRC I am always idling in #beta.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 10:33   #137
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

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Originally Posted by Shev View Post
What has convinced you that Zik need a significant buff to most of their race bonuses?

Isn't having 9/20 of last rounds top planets enough?
At least part of this has to be attributed to Zik being wtfbroken last round - if the actual stats are slightly more balanced, there's nothing wrong with adjusting the racial bonuses to make up for the fact that Zik is supposed to be fairly tough to play well.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:16   #138
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Nonsense. Zik has been competitive for many rounds, stop with the incorrect assumption that it's hard to play. And rogues were not faster than locusts so that point isn't true either.

It just reads to me like someone wants to play Zik all the time.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:29   #139
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I never assumed it was hard to play - just that it's meant to be slightly more difficult to play well because you're supposedly relying on other people's failings to develop a solid fleet, and the default Zik fleet isn't supposed to be able to utterly pwn on its own. Zik last round had a DE fleet that could land comfortably on most of the common anti-DE def without help, and def ships that could just sit at home and prevent inc without needing any other ships at all. It's no real surprise that good Zik players did well.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:41   #140
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
As for the change to the ghost. It was prompted by the change to the phoenix. I made Ter a bit too strong and Xan a bit too weak. Now Ter have good anti fi/co, but i made it so that xan fr can effectively attack w/o getting Drake def, this making ter a bit weaker. I am not worried about ter being too weak as they stand i think they may still be a tad too powerful with there Cr fleet and Phoenix. So I may have to drop the D/C on the wvyren down just a bit to compensate for that.
Considering that change has just made TER DE practically redundant, as now not only does fi/co fire before it, so does fr and even cr/bs then I guess the only reason to play TER would be with a powerful cr fleet.....which you now propose to weaken also

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiamats
They might be good but if even a touch of emp or even just enough flack gets put in front of them they will Cry.
Most attacks fail when defence is put in the way, so what makes this scenario any different....
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:41   #141
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I'm still not sure that Zik ships look weak to the point that the players need to have better research and more value, especially as that production bonus applies to salvage which Tia wants increased as well.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:43   #142
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Hell, probably not. I'd have to do the maths to be sure though, and that's too much effort right now.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:46   #143
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

My point is pretty much that I doubt Tia has bothered with that effort either - looks like a change on a whim to me.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 11:59   #144
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Please don't try to fix imbalances in the ship stats by altering the race stats. It's unnecessarily messy. The race stats are not there to balance anything, just to give the various races some flavour.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 12:15   #145
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I think Tia wanted to change Zik slightly to make players able to play it as a covop race. When I spoke with him, he was going to increase every race's base stealth by 5 to make it a bigger part of the game for the following round, and then Zik's base stealth by a further 2, but reduce the regen rate from 6 to 5 per tick. The increase to base research for Zik was to allow for people to develop the covops area of research as well as the usual areas. If there's been anything changed that alters the value side of things as well for the better, then that's unnecessary and makes Zik stronger than it otherwise should be.

Altering the Ghost init was retarded and killed a FR/DE strategy. Which, Tia, is why you modified the nix to be able to hit co/fi.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 19:19   #146
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

First of all i did not make ter De redundant, they still have many attack options it just means they aren't the dominant race. Sorry for making your life a bit harder. They still have the phoenix which will beat any fi/co right now unless teamed with emp(shocker). Ter Cr is still very strong vs fr/de but is easily stopped by juggernauts/pirates. And as for that De that you are soo fond of. They still have many solo attack options but Ter as the race no longer have 3 of the fastest ships in the uni(drake/pheonix/Wvyren) you will have to settle for only 2 of them.


As for the Racial changes T3k is correct i wanted to incorporate Zik to being kind of a covert Operations race. the increased research is to compensate for this. Since there are 3 races with increase construction and only 1 race with increased research. Also zik having 100/105 and no other benefits made zik look much weaker than all the races stat wise. So the +10 research was to balance that out a bit. As for the + stealth That is negotiable. Also as I said i will not be making the changes myself ultimately they are up to Appocomaster, I was just going to make a recommendation to upgrade Zik's research and stealth.

Until you prove to me that Zik are too strong with calcs, Then there is no reason to change them, and no making unrealistic calcs will not work.

But like i said i doubt appocomaster will make any changes to race/gov stats anyway so that point is moot.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 19:45   #147
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

Quote:
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I'm still not sure that Zik ships look weak to the point that the players need to have better research and more value, especially as that production bonus applies to salvage which Tia wants increased as well.
????????????????

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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 20:03   #148
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

hang on... so you nerfed Ter DE and are saying that its ok cos the CR fleet is amazing - yet in the same instance your saying that everything is playable.. isnt this kinda contradictory?

You also comment on TER DE being able to solo... last time i checked PA was a team based game primarily so most people attack in teams - so why would they now use a setup that cant teamup??

Also on the Zik note, its common knowledge Tia that you would play Zik every round if given the choice so buffing the race stats to make it possible for you to covop at the same time as running a normal Zik planet does nothing but give Zik options that no other race has...

And Zik doesnt rely on people mucking up - a decent Zik can hunt down ships anywhere it wants, it doesnt have to rely on n00bs leave 'stay at home and fight' on or crashing on Zik def
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 20:40   #149
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

So Kia your saying that you need to Farm as a Zik planet. The last time i checked Farming was against the rules....

And Ter De can solo and can also team up with Etd De. So your just complaining because Ter is no longer the BEST strat, and thus the changes were made. Because they were too strong. Ter De still has planety of attack options Solo, most of them into Zik, they can also attack into Etd Co and will still be able to attack into Cath. However I removed there attacking into Xan so just live with it. If ter/Etd De team up they can attack into most Fi/co planets.

Shev I don't think you know what production % means. That's just the speed at which you can produce ships. It has nothing to deal with salvage....


Also I strongly believe that all of this Flaming has nothing to do with stats themselves, but everything to do with that I made them.

I wanted to increase the play-ability of Covert Ops. The one race that lacks on the race page is Zik.

@t3k

I can not allow Ter to have too many good ships. If they stayed the same they would have the best anti fi/co/fr/de, and I am not going to make that happen. Now to address the changes to Xan, They have high init but LOW armor and low Emp res. So any Emp that is sent vs Xan means they just die.
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Unread 20 Dec 2011, 20:51   #150
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Re: R45 Stats Discussion

I wouldn't be worried about Ter, they are more than good enough. Every race looks playable, but I'd think that ter + zik would be the most popular allystrat.
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