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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 23:17   #151
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
The best at score accumulation in a seven week round lasting from whenever it began until whenever it ended sure. Is that all we're really looking for though?
If it's compared to most things then ya, you win = you are the best at it until you are beaten, unless PA has any other form of winning which i am unaware of.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 23:38   #152
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
to me that looks like you think your allianced played a big role in "letting" Denial win the round, which is not the case. you played a minor role and were just one of those "bits" i talked about. the main effort, 99% of the effort if not more was our members.
My point was that the effort of your members or whatever wasn't enough. You needed the whims of others to win and even then only by a slim margin. I'm not belittling their contribution to your win. I'm just belittling it all.


Quote:
So what exactly are we looking for here if not the ability to produce the most score together as an ally? Behind our score there is so much more effort into the game then any other ally last round, so if you wish to look beyond the numbers then Denial are an even bigger winner in my eyes.
To actually be the best alliance in a given round you need to dominate it. You need to be the ones making the moves, you need to be one step ahead of everyone else, you need better politics, better members and a more efficient military. You need better leadership, a better tactical plan, a better strategic understanding of the game. It doesn't matter if you care more and it doesn't matter if you try harder. You have to be better. There should never be a doubt in anyone's mind that if a couple of things had worked out differently you would have won. I mean 2 million score? That's so narrow as to be effectively meaningless.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 23:50   #153
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Re: r28 predictions

denial hehe kinda useless hanzi
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 23:54   #154
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
There should never be a doubt in anyone's mind that if a couple of things had worked out differently you would have won. I mean 2 million score? That's so narrow as to be effectively meaningless.
If a couple of things would have worked out differently (no "cheating") we could have also been uncatchable by tick 500. Isnt this why "u" organised the 5 ally bashing of us? Or were u too busy not actively participating in last round to notice this?

Oh and u didnt "let" us win by not hitting us. You made the decission not to hit us because u gained absolutely nothing out of it, we had no roids, no high value planets to XP whore hence u chose to hit CT instead to give urselves the best chance of winnin, dont pretend it was anything more noble than that.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 00:08   #155
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
what im saying is that even though we had more incs then any other ally for many rounds, maybe in PA history

I doubt that very much!
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 00:13   #156
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
If a couple of things would have worked out differently (no "cheating") we could have also been uncatchable by tick 500. Isnt this why "u" organised the 5 ally bashing of us? Or were u too busy not actively participating in last round to notice this?

Oh and u didnt "let" us win by not hitting us. You made the decission not to hit us because u gained absolutely nothing out of it, we had no roids, no high value planets to XP whore hence u chose to hit CT instead to give urselves the best chance of winnin, dont pretend it was anything more noble than that.
It wasn't noble, but it was a whim. I didn't think we could win (I actually scanned all your planets), game did to some extent. After we'd talked to both ND and CT about hitting the other and they'd both been so hilariously thick about it all we, certainly I, was far more in favour of denial winning than either of the others.

The 5 alliance thing was another whim as well. Whims are far more amusing than plans.


Also having your HC caught for cheating and giving everyone a good excuse to wallop you is something completely within your control. It's like me saying ascendancy would have won if I'd been more active last round. Well gee bob maybe things would have worked out differently but if you can't control yourself what hope do you have of running the table for an entire playerbase?
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 00:22   #157
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Also having your HC caught for cheating and giving everyone a good excuse to wallop you is something completely within your control. It's like me saying ascendancy would have won if I'd been more active last round. Well gee bob maybe things would have worked out differently but if you can't control yourself what hope do you have of running the table for an entire playerbase?
We won anyway. Not as emphatically as planned or maybe you would have liked. But its a win none the less. The fact we won after such an amazing stuff up, just proves that we were the best alliance playing last round and the most deserving victor.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 00:44   #158
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
We won anyway. Not as emphatically as planned or maybe you would have liked. But its a win none the less. The fact we won after such an amazing stuff up, just proves that we were the best alliance playing last round and the most deserving victor.
If you don't get how retarded this sounds it's going to be difficult for me to explain further. Suffice it to say that it's the equivalent of me saying "the fact we were so close after xyz just proves that we were the best alliance playing last round". You're basically saying look at how shit we were and we still won. Well guess what, other alliances were plenty shit as well. Does the fact an alliance failed to live up to its potential even more than denial did make them the best alliance? I'm not denying you your win here man, after the previous three rounds you deserved some good fortune, but please stop with the cringe-fest everywhere.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 05:45   #159
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
what im saying is that even though we had more incs then any other ally for many rounds, maybe in PA history, we still managed to get #1.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 05:54   #160
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Re: r28 predictions

Hanzi has been gone for a long time i think, you have to excuse him.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 10:14   #161
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Denial had twice as much incs as any other alliance and still we won.
I'm curious how you guessed the number of incs other alliances had.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 10:15   #162
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
what im saying is that even though we had more incs then any other ally for many rounds, maybe in PA history, we still managed to get #1.
ok you are delusional now
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 10:46   #163
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Denial had twice as much incs as any other alliance and still we won.
in my gal at least the denial member managed to get 3 times as much ingal defence as anyone else... so perhaps galaxies were the real reason U won

tho ofc securing control of your galaxies and sucking in all their def is itself a good old method of winning!
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 14:33   #164
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post

what im saying is that even though we had more incs then any other ally for many rounds, maybe in PA history, we still managed to get #1.
Ya do realise the old block wars that used to happen in the early rounds, were generally bigger on each side, than the total number of players now?

feel sorry for alliances like nos and xanadu, in round 5, when they had thousands of fleets attacking them nonstop for the better part of a month. or round 6, when the fury/legion block had even more people waving them.

it might seem like a lot now with the vastly deflated numbers, but seriously, unless everyone in the game launched at your alliance at once, you wouldnt come close to having the most incommings in pa history.

Remember, the old wars were about destroying your enemies, both there planets and there will to play the game... that probably had a bit of impact on why the amount of players declined, but yer.

-sorry for the rant, I was bored, and hadnt been on these forums for a few years.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 15:06   #165
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Re: r28 predictions

You don't need to go anywhere near that far back really. The exi/1up wars, especially say 1up/angels/exi in r15, were far more intensive. Hell even CT in r24 received an incredible number of incs with multiple alliances ptargetting them every night for pretty much half the length of the round.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 17:34   #166
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Hude View Post
I'm curious how you guessed the number of incs other alliances had.
guessed?
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 18:00   #167
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Hell even CT in r24 received an incredible number of incs with multiple alliances ptargetting them every night for pretty much half the length of the round.
Very true, i would stick my neck out here and say CT r24 received more incs than Denial last round. Even though i left CT during that round for completely seperate reasons i feel they deserved the victory but narrowly missed out. I would also say Denial marginally deserved the victory last round and i felt that way during the round which is why i did a bit to help them...
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 18:36   #168
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Re: r28 predictions

JBG. As a member of Denial r27, i'd just like to say that your opinions are not only flawed, they are disrespectful.

When denial got major incs off like 5/6 alliances, people said "this is due to your HC cheating", when HC's came out and spoke, they said they decided to hit Denial because they were "running away with it", Denial were by far the best attackers, by far the most active, and by far the best defence covered alliance, regardless of the incs. Denial finished #1 because of those factors, I wont go as far to say they were the most alliance attacked in history, but they are up there for sure.

The ranking system is not flawed, they were #1 because they deserved it the most, and the fact u suggest u played kingmaker is bollocks, ur merely 1 planet in a universe of 2300, so kindly stfu.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 18:41   #169
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Morden View Post
Ya do realise the old block wars that used to happen in the early rounds, were generally bigger on each side, than the total number of players now?

feel sorry for alliances like nos and xanadu, in round 5, when they had thousands of fleets attacking them nonstop for the better part of a month. or round 6, when the fury/legion block had even more people waving them.
I played back then, and back then there wasnt alliance limits, at the end of the day, Denial had 75 members, thats 75 defence fleets, with 4/5/6 alliances attacking, each with 2 roid fleets, thats 900 attack fleets.

900 attack fleets
75 defence fleets

obviously these are sketchy numbers, but u get the idea
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 18:42   #170
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by .Disc. View Post
I played back then, and back then there wasnt alliance limits, at the end of the day, Denial had 75 members, thats 75 defence fleets, with 4/5/6 alliances attacking, each with 2 roid fleets, thats 900 attack fleets.

900 attack fleets
75 defence fleets

obviously these are sketchy numbers, but u get the idea
What the ****.


Edit: hahaha I missed the first post, you're a complete joke.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 18:47   #171
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Re: r28 predictions

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JBG. As a member of Denial r27, i'd just like to say that your opinions are not only flawed, they are disrespectful.
You hear that JBG! Disrespectful!
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 19:12   #172
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Re: r28 predictions

You have to excuse Disc aswell, he has been away for a long time.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 19:30   #173
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by .Disc. View Post
I played back then, and back then there wasnt alliance limits, at the end of the day, Denial had 75 members, thats 75 defence fleets, with 4/5/6 alliances attacking, each with 2 roid fleets, thats 900 attack fleets.

900 attack fleets
75 defence fleets

obviously these are sketchy numbers, but u get the idea
And you guys -dare- disrespect 1up in claiming suddenly that you've received more incoming than "any other alliance". Guess what? Member limits WERE in place in the 1up period of play. And want to know something else? 1up even played BELOW that limit and won.

Most incoming on an alliance was probably r4 Fury in history. Most block incoming - probably NoCex.

Going by your crazy idea of limits and applying them, 1up's level of incoming r12 onwards (notably for 1up/eXilition rounds) was far far more.

You guys don't even know what a true war -is- in Planetarion.

My poo has fought more wars than you.

Go on, just try it...
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:19   #174
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Re: r28 predictions

Since i can't whine anymore about JBG whining about denial winning. i'll say something else then.

i'm only around from rnd 19 so missed out on that part of history of the game. Granted i haven't seen much of a war yet, not that i mind it, the only thing that comes close are some minor skirmishes that end after two days.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:24   #175
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Re: r28 predictions

i don't see the people whining about the old days and the wars that where fought start a war themselves.

so what do i care if they keep whining about it.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:32   #176
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Re: r28 predictions

yo Bro, should have read my posts before that got deleted thats all.

wasn't to his liking that's all. just stating that Denial deserved the win.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:34   #177
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Donar View Post
yo Bro, should have read my posts before that got deleted thats all.

wasn't to his liking that's all. just stating that Denial deserved the win.
Seeing as at least you're trying here, can I ask which one of my posts I would have disagreed with you that denial deserved the win in?
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:38   #178
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Re: r28 predictions

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I wouldn't describe any alliance last round, or any of the last five as the "best". The winning margins at the end just don't justify it.
maybe this will be an eyeopener for you.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:40   #179
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Donar View Post
maybe this will be an eyeopener for you.
Perhaps reading the rest of my posts will help contextualise those two sentences best. In my opinion the alliance which finishes #1 at the end of the round deserves it, end of story. I was talking about the pointlessness of talking about an objectively best alliance in a round where the final margins were so small.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 20:48   #180
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Re: r28 predictions

The margins don't matter they were the best because they are #1 from rnd 27. they deserved it to be #1.

If ASC wants to be the best they will need to finish #1. the rest is just semantics.

How you play, who you pissed off, wich strategy you used to get their.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 21:20   #181
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Re: r28 predictions

I wasn't talking about ascendancy. Or the #1 rank.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 21:40   #182
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Re: r28 predictions

i was just giving it up as an example can easily be replaced by HA
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 22:35   #183
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by .Disc. View Post
I played back then, and back then there wasnt alliance limits, at the end of the day, Denial had 75 members, thats 75 defence fleets, with 4/5/6 alliances attacking, each with 2 roid fleets, thats 900 attack fleets.

900 attack fleets
75 defence fleets

obviously these nare sketchy numbers, but u get the idea
This is just plain wrong; numerous reasons already posted on the thread but I'll just add its pretty insulting to those who have taken on far worse situations.

Anyway, on to the topic of the thread. There is only one objective measure of alliance performance: score. It's what is defined by the game and it is the only measure. Denial live and die by this record and it objectively makes them the best alliance.

However, the question many have had and indeed many used to debate is whether score is even accurate, regardless of its fairness. A big alliance can be large but powerless, ignored by better alliances. The greatness of an alliance can be measured by military force or political power. These are all subjective terms but they might give us a far more accurate picture of which alliance is the best rather than an objective one.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 22:48   #184
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Re: r28 predictions

Ill say as much as at one point we had the inc-counter from CT pasted after they were on their second night of ~150-200 fleets on them.

they had 2450 incoming fleets.
at the same time denial had 5300 incoming fleets and at that point i calced that from tick 72 we averaged 163 fleets every night...

so yes hude we did know how much incs everyone else had.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 22:48   #185
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Re: r28 predictions

my r28 prediction is that ziks are ass****ed
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 22:52   #186
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
We won anyway. Not as emphatically as planned or maybe you would have liked. But its a win none the less. The fact we won after such an amazing stuff up, just proves that we were the best alliance playing last round and the most deserving victor.
If anything it just proves what a cock up the MH's did when allowing Reese, elviz, eksero ++ to make a new account after getting closed.
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:01   #187
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Re: r28 predictions

hehe kargie said cock
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:24   #188
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Re: r28 predictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Ill say as much as at one point we had the inc-counter from CT pasted after they were on their second night of ~150-200 fleets on them.

they had 2450 incoming fleets.
at the same time denial had 5300 incoming fleets and at that point i calced that from tick 72 we averaged 163 fleets every night...

so yes hude we did know how much incs everyone else had.
And you think those numbers come anywhere close to "most incomings in pa history"???

jeez
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:27   #189
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by .Disc. View Post
I played back then, and back then there wasnt alliance limits, at the end of the day, Denial had 75 members, thats 75 defence fleets, with 4/5/6 alliances attacking, each with 2 roid fleets, thats 900 attack fleets.

900 attack fleets
75 defence fleets

obviously these are sketchy numbers, but u get the idea
75*3 = 225

thats 225 possible defence fleets, not 75, like your suggesting, unless ofcourse your telling me everybody in denial only sent 1 defence fleet per night....
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:29   #190
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Re: r28 predictions

They didnt. Most people did tho :|
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:34   #191
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Re: r28 predictions

Also only having 75 members?

But hey who am i to open another chapter of stuff..

ps one round my planet alone had 430 hostiles launched on it... so meh
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Unread 13 Aug 2008, 23:38   #192
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Re: r28 predictions

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ps one round my planet alone had 430 hostiles launched on it... so meh
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 00:08   #193
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
ps one round my planet alone had 430 hostiles launched on it... so meh
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 00:11   #194
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Ill say as much as at one point we had the inc-counter from CT pasted after they were on their second night of ~150-200 fleets on them.

they had 2450 incoming fleets.
at the same time denial had 5300 incoming fleets and at that point i calced that from tick 72 we averaged 163 fleets every night...

so yes hude we did know how much incs everyone else had.
There is a huge difference between standard roiding missions and a full-blown-out war. War in PA is pretty fickle, but until you are at war with a campaign that lasts weeks, sometimes entire rounds and maybe proceeding from round to round (like the old Xanadu-Fury war) then you have little concept or idea to what I'm talking about.

Perhaps you may have had the most 'incomings' for that round (though frankly from what I hear, I doubt it, but I'll just for theories sake assume it) but do not try and raise your victory higher than it is.

The 'best' alliance has always been determined on these boards and in many peoples eyes as more than just 'who won round x and what was their score'. An appraisal of their members, coordination, military and politics all factor into it. An alliance might finish second and be crowned the winner, which well done to them, but many opinions will differ into whether they were the best alliance in terms of overall strength.

One shining example is going into r5 for Fury. Fury was left a mess from r4 and Lokken on these here boards predicted Fury to be the major superpower following after such a massive loss (to the extent where we were down to nearly 30 members out of 200) and had to set up an emergency channel. Just because Lokken assessed every factor and asset of Fury and what it had planned for r5. And he was right. Fury was central to politics ever since. To combat in the politicial arena, you had to consider what Fury was doing.

1up in contrast were always a force militarily, if not politically. But thats a different story.

I think what people are saying is that the winning margin was so small that even though you won, and congratulations for that, it hardly was dominant. It didnt showcase you as being far above the rest. Alot of people, myself included, tend to look at final standings and then consider "would these be the same in a week or two?" With how close yours were, the answer is volatile.

Still, congratulations on winning r27 but the morale of the message and boards is that don't get too high on that throne, especially when you aren't even trying to defend it.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 03:29   #195
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
There is a huge difference between standard roiding missions and a full-blown-out war. War in PA is pretty fickle, but until you are at war with a campaign that lasts weeks, sometimes entire rounds and maybe proceeding from round to round (like the old Xanadu-Fury war) then you have little concept or idea to what I'm talking about.
That would be incorrect. You've been out of pa a bit, and I'm sure the people you have talked to since you've been "back" have given u their perspective, mainly as sideline players. Politics over the last 4 rounds have been very much the way u describe above with war/grudges/whatever carrying over from one round to the next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
Perhaps you may have had the most 'incomings' for that round (though frankly from what I hear, I doubt it, but I'll just for theories sake assume it)
Yes I'm sure your second hand information is far superior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
The 'best' alliance has always been determined on these boards
Shame these 'boards' have gotten so ugly almost no one at all posts (other then 1 alliance), or that might still be true. Alas, it's no longer so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
I think what people are saying is that the winning margin was so small that even though you won, and congratulations for that, it hardly was dominant. It didnt showcase you as being far above the rest. Alot of people, myself included, tend to look at final standings and then consider "would these be the same in a week or two?" With how close yours were, the answer is volatile.
Conjecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
Still, congratulations on winning r27 but the morale of the message and boards is that don't get too high on that throne..
I agree, and in fact I rarely post as I prefer IRC, but I will say that Denial members were truly great and inspiring last round, and they are welcome to say whatever they want. That's how these "boards" work. No matter what the margin was they won.

That said, I am looking forward to seeing how things play out next round with no clear enemy for CT/ND (and their flak allies) to team up against. As most allies tend to be afraid to hit Ascendancy, will they actually hit each other and both go for a win? Or will they team up and take out their normal flak allies? Ascendancy should surely win, and quite easily at that. Can't wait!
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 06:45   #196
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Ill say as much as at one point we had the inc-counter from CT pasted after they were on their second night of ~150-200 fleets on them.

they had 2450 incoming fleets.
at the same time denial had 5300 incoming fleets and at that point i calced that from tick 72 we averaged 163 fleets every night...

so yes hude we did know how much incs everyone else had.
Everyone else? You had one number pasted. Go **** yourself.

Try round 15, the current alliances haven't even been able to launch that many fleets for rounds.

Sure you deserve the win as the winner of the round but you are hilariously wrong if you think you come any close to the "most incomings in pa history".

edit: heck, even Nitina handled 5k calls alone in r15 as eXi DC

Last edited by Hude; 14 Aug 2008 at 07:16.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 07:49   #197
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Reese View Post
That said, I am looking forward to seeing how things play out next round with no clear enemy for CT/ND (and their flak allies) to team up against. As most allies tend to be afraid to hit Ascendancy, will they actually hit each other and both go for a win? Or will they team up and take out their normal flak allies? Ascendancy should surely win, and quite easily at that. Can't wait!
I really do like how CT/ND are supposedly the big bad block. In early CT rounds we fought with ND tooth and nail for round wins. Frankly last round we worked with NewDawn because no other ally was interested and made no effort to discuss anything with us when we were looking for a similar deal. It's in no way a sure thing that CT/ND go into the round working together, we haven't for the last 8 rounds, I'm damn sure we won't be doing it this coming round either.

Basically the only reason Denial won was because ND & CT hit each other. Otherwise you wouldn't have won. It's as simple as that. You had plenty of "flak allies" and you know damn well you did. So stop talking shit.

CT only had about 40 active planets towards the end of last round, and we came 2nd by 1million. Hardly screams that you were this super awesome ally. Have a day off, and we'll be waiting if you ever manage to return. xx

Edit: And oh yeah whilst we're at it. We came into the round with 47 members which includes scanners/inactive HC planets, you had at least 80. No wonder we were interested in sorting some early politics out.
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Last edited by ReligFree; 14 Aug 2008 at 07:56.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 07:59   #198
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Re: r28 predictions

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Originally Posted by Reese View Post
Yes I'm sure your second hand information is far superior.
I'd say your second hand information on how much incs other alliances have is totally superior aswell!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reese View Post
That said, I am looking forward to seeing how things play out next round with no clear enemy for CT/ND (and their flak allies) to team up against. As most allies tend to be afraid to hit Ascendancy, will they actually hit each other and both go for a win? Or will they team up and take out their normal flak allies? Ascendancy should surely win, and quite easily at that. Can't wait!
It's been admitted in this thread that you contacted most of the smaller alliances with deals. Pot, kettle, black, etc...
Don't blame us for your offerings of shit deals with no return for the smaller alliances.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 10:17   #199
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Re: r28 predictions

Also, 1:4 (#3 galaxy) had 1200~ incomings this rd, so 5300 for Denial (#1 alliance), doesn't seem quite so bad...maybe that means we must have had the most incomings for a galaxy in pa history
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 16:02   #200
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Re: r28 predictions

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edit: heck, even Nitina handled 5k calls alone in r15 as eXi DC
Tought that wasn't supose to be mentioned again, ever. r15 and dc'ing
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