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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 12:43   #1
Gate
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Fix cathaar by adding more killships

I believe overdependence on EMP is a broken dynamic. Smaller players who are cath find it impossible to grow as they cannot deter incs and people are far more willing to defend vs them. Larger players can become almost untouchable as it takes huge fleet investment to hit them. In some cases, you don't even get large cath players because of the first problem.

This is represented by cath's disproportionate win percentage and often smaller average value/roidcount, and can be experienced by playing them for a round.

In round 17, cathaar were given 3 useful killships. I believe this improved the cath balance slightly.


With multi-targetting, the opportunity for greater improvement is there. They can still stun every class, thus maintaining their unique feel. Changing the EMP:kill ratio to 4:3 or perhaps even 3:4 would allow cath to be balanced to a far better extent IMO.

There are other alternatives that merit discussion (such as a 'critical failure', eg 10% of stunned ships dying), but I haven't read about others that will not benefit larger players far more, ie they won't remove EMP's innate lack of balance.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 13:18   #2
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

cath hasnt been playable for many many rounds already :/.. that dosent count ofc if ure in a superb gal which supports u with great defence, etc..
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 13:47   #3
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Incidentally I believe the recent almost complete lack of decent cath planets is due to the total nerfing of the cath fleets attack capabilities. They can't attack effectively and they're "safe" to attack (which is a big deal in the era of multi-targetting and massive hidden prods).
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 14:38   #4
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Why not drop Cat and add an extra stun ship to Etd? Much easier to balance which, let's face it, Cathaar never have been.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 16:31   #5
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

This idea is already incorporated in the r26 stats. Anyone who wants to be involved with the process PM me on netgamers.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 18:43   #6
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by Monroe
This idea is already incorporated in the r26 stats. Anyone who wants to be involved with the process PM me on netgamers.
the idea of adding more kill ships or dropping them all together?
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 18:58   #7
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by Zaejii
the idea of adding more kill ships or dropping them all together?
Balancing them by adding kill ships.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 19:43   #8
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Get rid of Cathaar. Nothing else will work.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 16:34   #9
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Captain obvious seems to be working overtime in this thread. And as Monroe said, we decided to do this shortly after the start of rnd25(mainly since our last-minute fixes weren't accepted for that round). So yeah, this has already been the case for a few months.

Btw, I love how the suggestion didn't actually include a suggestion, just a vague "someone should do something" statement. There's a finnish saying that's nearly exactly the same: Tarttis varmaan tehrä jottain!
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 16:50   #10
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Cath is fine when it has a few 0 loss def ships. When cath had scorps as BS- BS cath was awesome.
The multi targetting now is just crap for all races,, bring back the 0 loss defence ship for all the races and make it more exciting

Cath FTW!!
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 16:51   #11
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

HEY GUYS YOU KNOW WHAT NO-ONE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO FIX OR BALANCE CATHAAR AND NEITHER CAN YOU.

That would be Captain Obvious.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 17:08   #12
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Achi; that'd also be blatantly incorrect. I've done it before, and I dare say, they will be balanced next round aswell.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 18:42   #13
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Achi; that'd also be blatantly incorrect. I've done it before, and I dare say, they will be balanced next round aswell.
I'm quoting you so you can't just delete that post when the next round proves you wrong. Once more Cathaar will be over or under powered as they have always been.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 19:12   #14
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Don't you trust me?

Hopefully the stats will get the same reception as my first set for pia did(I found it quite amusing and very telling of the general idiocy of people).
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 01:48   #15
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Don't you trust me?

Hopefully the stats will get the same reception as my first set for pia did(I found it quite amusing and very telling of the general idiocy of people).
last person that had your attitude about making the stats was Game, and we see what happened to him about 1/4 the way through that round. hopefully they do work out, but if they don't i hope you stick around and deal with the criticism like others in the past haven't.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 02:11   #16
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Don't worry, I'm better at this than Game. Actually, a flowerpot and a whale are better at this than Game, so that's not saying a whole lot.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 02:11   #17
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

lol ^^
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 14:22   #18
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

In the (old) past, cathaar was feared and always complained about as being way too powerfull. And that was with just a few kill ships. They just had rock solid arm/dam.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 14:38   #19
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
In the (old) past, cathaar was feared and always complained about as being way too powerfull. And that was with just a few kill ships. They just had rock solid arm/dam.
The only other options I see are removing them completely or accepting they're permanently flawed and keeping them that way.

But I know players who love how cath play and would be really pissed with the first one, so I think trying other ways to improve them would be the best thing to do.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 15:48   #20
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
In the (old) past, cathaar was feared and always complained about as being way too powerfull. And that was with just a few kill ships. They just had rock solid arm/dam.
How "old" are we talking about? Because if you go back to pre-pax, that claim is complete and utter bullshit.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 15:43   #21
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
How "old" are we talking about? Because if you go back to pre-pax, that claim is complete and utter bullshit.
Cath were never totally 'feared' in the rounds I played either. The issue was always EMP's inherent unbalance; unless cath were truly shit (R13, R16), there were always some enormous ones that did ok, whilst smaller ones just got raped over and over again.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 20:13   #22
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Cath have never been feared. When they were on top they occasionally had seemingly impregnable planets, but you could always team up on a top Cath in a way that you couldn't do against the other races.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 23:33   #23
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

well make cathaar do emp/kill in the multi targeting

T1 kill T2 emp or otherway arround. that will help a little
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 23:39   #24
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
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well make cathaar do emp/kill in the multi targeting

T1 kill T2 emp or otherway arround. that will help a little
I believe there's a coding issue with this. Especially with the way 'guns' works. What if you want a ship that does EMP-EMP, or EMP-Kill-Kill. How do you indicate this on the stats and keep them easy to read? It does open up some interesting opportunities (sending extra classes to absorb EMP so they can't shoot you, f'r'instance)... but I think the original one is better because it keeps the stats simple to read, makes them easier to design, and achieves a similar thing.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 10:37   #25
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Besides the point that the whole idea is stupid, it wouldn't be all that hard to implement. Here's how:

Instead of marking a ship as "EMP" the battle-engine would have checks for each targeting which determined if the fire would be shot as "Emp", "normal" or "Steal". This would enable other interesting things such as cloaked emp or stealships. The problem is you'd need individual stats for each targeting as you can't use the same res-eff of EMP as of Kill-ships or steal-ships. This could be fixed by applying a modifier for various types of dmg. The targeting type could be distinguished in the stats through colour-coding.

But as said, it's moronic.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 19:11   #26
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

But as said, it's moronic.
And even in your solution, ugly as sin to read.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 20:07   #27
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
And even in your solution, ugly as sin to read.
Hey, I'm just saying it can be done. Making it look good is not my problem.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 20:33   #28
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

well adding 1 or 2 killships would even make me take a second look at playing cath. i never really like the fact they only froze, but with 3 - 4 killships in their arsenal i would consider picking cath.
till now i've played zik most of the time, expcept for one round being etd scanner and last round as xan.
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 18:05   #29
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Cath pwn if played well, I honestly played like shit last round and jerked around alot and finished 62nd with them. The only time people were able to break me was when alliances double-triple booked us so i had to defend 2-3 different teamups, i self-defended myself through hidden production and resource hoarding quite easily and well. Though I did have some trouble landing unless i teamed up with xans(fr) and ETD(Cr).
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 18:14   #30
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

You were in the rank #4 gal in an alliance nobody gave a shit about (and as HC i'm going to assume you got very good def, not implying you defwhored just saying I doubt your def was terrible). It's a fairly objective fact that cathaar have been very weak the last two rounds.
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 18:21   #31
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

PK got some decent def yes, but nothing extreme as far as i saw. Your gal was quite good though PK and we didnt get hit THAT many times.
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 20:47   #32
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

If you're not losing roids then any race is easy to do well with. I think it was cypher in Round 14 who started very late as a Terran but came 4th through being in 6:10, an impregnable galaxy in a round that 1up dominated.
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 21:07   #33
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

yea but my 52nd was Caths as well, with eXi/VS hitting me every other day and in a 17th ranked gal.
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 21:46   #34
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

heimdall slaps pk around for bragging on the forum
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 22:22   #35
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by The PK
yea but my 52nd was Caths as well, with eXi/VS hitting me every other day and in a 17th ranked gal.
Nobody cared if your planet got roided or not. In fact I don't think you were ever on our target lists. You were probably just an unnapped planet that got random incs.

Not to mention the fact cath were actually good that round..
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 07:05   #36
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

You wanna fix cat??? Why, its fixed, u just play it in a broken way.

/me walks off into the distance screaming.. "YOU MAY TAKE OUR ROIDS, BUT YOU MAY NEVER TAKE..... OUR X PPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!123"
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 13:03   #37
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
You wanna fix cat??? Why, its fixed, u just play it in a broken way.

/me walks off into the distance screaming.. "YOU MAY TAKE OUR ROIDS, BUT YOU MAY NEVER TAKE..... OUR X PPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!123"
It's a bit shit that cath can only do well through luck (being completely ignored by the top 3 alliances for example), having a load of support, or through XP.

Every race should be playable as value or as XP IMO. Sure, some races incline one way or the other, but they shouldn't be nigh unplayable in one 'mode'.
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 17:16   #38
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It's a bit shit that cath can only do well through luck (being completely ignored by the top 3 alliances for example), having a load of support, or through XP.

Every race should be playable as value or as XP IMO. Sure, some races incline one way or the other, but they shouldn't be nigh unplayable in one 'mode'.

Why is it a bit shit doing well through XP? What i think people need to realise, this isnt r2 anymore, the scorign system has totally changed, if u wanna play a new game by old rules, feel free, but dont expect to do well. This game and how its played is always evolving, if people want to continue banging their head against the wall and not use all the tools in the toolbox, why is it up to PA team to make it easier for them?

All im saying is, theres a way around these "problems," its not necessarily broken if the way around doesnt fit with your playing style. Every race has its strengths and weaknesses, if u want to force a race to play to an obvious weakness, thats your flaw, not the race's.
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 19:48   #39
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by JungleMuffin
Why is it a bit shit doing well through XP?
Ahem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Every race should be playable as value or as XP IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JungleMuffin
All im saying is, theres a way around these "problems," its not necessarily broken if the way around doesnt fit with your playing style. Every race has its strengths and weaknesses, if u want to force a race to play to an obvious weakness, thats your flaw, not the race's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Every race should be playable as value or as XP IMO. Sure, some races incline one way or the other, but they shouldn't be nigh unplayable in one 'mode'.
If you disagree with that statement; why? I'm not certain we're disagreeing on anything, I think you might have misinterpretted me.
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 20:41   #40
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

U think? I might be wrong but it appears ur saying cat should be reasonably playable as value, im saying if u wanna play a race by its weakness not its strengths, and still expect to be proficient, ur asking a bit much.

Sadly, what you believe should be the case, ie cat value playability, isnt or doesnt have to be.

Like u said, maybe i misunderstand
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Unread 12 Mar 2008, 22:25   #41
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
U think? I might be wrong but it appears ur saying cat should be reasonably playable as value, im saying if u wanna play a race by its weakness not its strengths, and still expect to be proficient, ur asking a bit much.

Sadly, what you believe should be the case, ie cat value playability, isnt or doesnt have to be.

Like u said, maybe i misunderstand
We do disagree then.

I really can't think of any justification as to why a race has to be unplayable as a value whore. You can keep them just as playable in XP terms, but give the option of playing for value quite easily.

I also don't see why less experienced players who pick cath and want to have a decent fleet should be stuck with a shit round, or why one race has to be permanently unuseable in alliance play.

It's needlessly limiting and a bit boring.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 02:15   #42
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Back to square 1 then : Cath are either underpowered or overpowered, should they be overpowered next round to make up for the last poor rounds they had ?
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 09:10   #43
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Er, no?
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 10:10   #44
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Different methods should be attempted to balance them.

I believe adding more killships, combined with the expertise of a decent stats developer, should balance them.

Nothing about being underpowered or overpowered, just an attempt to make every race playable as value or as XP.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 10:29   #45
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Different methods should be attempted to balance them.

I believe adding more killships, combined with the expertise of a decent stats developer, should balance them.

Nothing about being underpowered or overpowered, just an attempt to make every race playable as value or as XP.
but isnt the whole point of Cathaar to be the emp race? sort of going off the rails somewhat if you add more and more kill ships. From what i've seen of the past 5 or 6 rounds especially, if you try to fix one races imbalance then you try to compensate with another races stats. This constant to'ing and fro'ing causes more trouble than its worth.

Fair enough i'm not really giving a potential solution, mainly due to the fact that i take it as i see them and couldn't even begin to start listing stats.

But i'll agree that they need a decent if not genius stats developer to solve the problem once and for all. Whther it can be solved or not is a different question.

I wouldn't, however, be surprised if having added more cath kill ship we see another topic next mid-round called "Fix Zik by adding more emp ships" or "Fix xan by making pods cloaked"
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 10:42   #46
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Quote:
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but isnt the whole point of Cathaar to be the emp race? sort of going off the rails somewhat if you add more and more kill ships. From what i've seen of the past 5 or 6 rounds especially, if you try to fix one races imbalance then you try to compensate with another races stats. This constant to'ing and fro'ing causes more trouble than its worth.
With multitargetting, every class can be EMPd by cath, maintaining their dynamic.

When we had 1 ship targetting, cath had 3 killships which no-one complained about (afaik?). I think r17 was a reasonably successful example of how giving cath decent killships can balance them out. It wasn't perfect, but it was much better, from the caths I spoke to. An early version of those stats are here, which might convey what I'm trying to say.

As for giving other races stuff to balance them out; they're not broken, like cathaar are.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 23:44   #47
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

just bring back the 0 loss ships for each race and there will be no problem with cath
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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 02:14   #48
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

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just bring back the 0 loss ships for each race and there will be no problem with cath
Good idea i think tbh, allthough multi targetting would make it seriously hard work.

Maybe not for each race but i thought the old scorps and rogues where fair, they gave both cat and zik respite from at least 1 attack fleet, which considering their inability to deter pretty much any class, they needed.

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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 04:51   #49
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Yeah, I agree with Muffinbrain, Zik need to be stronger this round for sure.
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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 07:28   #50
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Re: Fix cathaar by adding more killships

Cath had atleast one strength at the round before multitargeting. Both Cath CR-ships targetted all anti-CR ships with emp guns and shot first. Early and mid round brought a lot of XP when many times the whole gal didn't have enough anti-CR to stop my CRs and i wasn't even so big Cath.

This was mainly the reason i picked Cath and i think that with more skills involved i could have done even better.
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