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18 Jul 2006, 19:17
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#101
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
When the military arm of Hizbollah (supplied and financed by Syria and Iran) launch future attacks will the UN then strike forcefully with full military engagement against Hizbollah and their sponsors?
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean here as I imagine our ideas of strike forcefully with full military engagement against Hizbollah and their sponsors but yes. However hopefully this scenario would not arise.
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It is easy for those marginally threatened to criticise the Israelis. During the last year the prime activity of Hizbollah and Hamas has been to rearm and resupply. If I were the Israelis I would not want to give them another year to import another 13,000 rockets of possibly greater capability.
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This seems to be a truism but the question which needs to be addressed is why are there 13,000 rockets being brought in. (I'm rather worried over where you get your facts from here though. Hamas and hezbollah are entirely different organisations. Hezbollah has the rockets. And most upper end estimates of the numbers are in the region of 10,000).
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The UN should be backing the Lebanese government in driving Hizbollah out of their country and, if necessary, kicking the crap out of Iran and Syria. If the rest of the world took a strong, militant stance againt Syria and Iran, there might be some chance of achieving peace. However, the world is divided and does not have the will to confront the radical mullahs. So, until it is, I will support Israel's right to protect itself against their enemies.
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I have no idea what you mean by kicking the crap out of iran and syria. Certainly I can't imagine massive aerial warfare being vastly productive. As for driving hezbollah out I would support that under the sensible proviso that they are given time to change from militant to constitutional.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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18 Jul 2006, 19:29
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#102
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Yes, let's send some more Western Armies into the Middle East to overthrow a few brutal regimes, eventually one population will be greatful...
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I was born 1 year, 1 month and 15 days after the advent of neuclear warfare. I was raised during the height of the cold war. I was in high school during the Cuban Missle Crisis which appeared to be the brink of neuclear war. However, I was never particularly concerned about such a war because I never felt that it was a real liklihood. As much as the Russians, Chinese and Communists in general were villified in the US, I always felt that they were rational and would not actually lead the world into such a war.
I do not have that confidence in the mullahs or in the North Koreans. They do not seem rational. Or at least their basis for their rationale doesn't seem like it would blink at popping of a nuke under a number of circumstances.
For the first time in my life I am aprehensive that we could be nearing the fail safe point. When the anti-Israeli forces in the mid-east achieve nuclear weaponry, I feel that the days of Tel Aviv are numbered. I think they would use the weaponry without much of a second thought.
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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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18 Jul 2006, 19:32
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#103
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
And most upper end estimates of the numbers are in the region of 10,000).
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I think it was the BBC who said this morning it was 13,000.
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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18 Jul 2006, 20:01
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#104
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
I am marginally perturbed that jonny's response to a localised conflict is an all out global war
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hi
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18 Jul 2006, 20:03
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#105
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I am marginally perturbed that jonny's response to a localised conflict is an all out global war
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I'm more than perturbed that yahwe thinks a a peackeeping mission is a global war.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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18 Jul 2006, 20:12
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#106
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm more than perturbed that yahwe thinks a a peackeeping mission is a global war.
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you want the global community "the UN backed up by NATO" to enforce peace within an "exclusion zone" and you want us to use more troops than we usually do.
I'm not sure that you are grasping the outcome of such a measure.
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hi
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18 Jul 2006, 20:28
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#107
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you want the global community "the UN backed up by NATO" to enforce peace within an "exclusion zone" and you want us to use more troops than we usually do.
I'm not sure that you are grasping the outcome of such a measure.
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The point is that this situation doesn't fit within the conventional paradigm of these situations. On one side you have a clearly defined nation-state with a military they are perfectly capable of controlling. You use this example to encourage the other side to show that they are as civilised and capable of controlling themselves as negotiations are ongoing. Equally the information technology capable of bringing to bear this knowledge is available, far more so than in situations that have arisen in West Africa.
However all that aside as we all love the dialectical learning process perhaps you'd like to outline your basic conception of how to solve the problems facing the Israelis and the Palestinians.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
Last edited by JonnyBGood; 18 Jul 2006 at 21:27.
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19 Jul 2006, 15:03
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#108
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Tony Blair yesterday swung behind the US position that Israel need not end the bombing until Hizbullah hands over captured prisoners and ends its rocket attacks. During a Commons statement, he resisted backbench demands that he call for a ceasefire.
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France's silly snubby nationalism is a lot better than looking like a puppet state. The greatest empire of all time sometimes seems to be nothing more these days than the pawn of one of its former colonies. Keyword is 'seems.' UK is a fine place, with a fine history, but it would be great if you know, though if somedays it has a voice of its own. Does Bush have dirt on Blair or something?
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19 Jul 2006, 15:20
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#109
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Dirte
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,573
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
DDA, I do agree that fundamentalist jihadists are a grave danger to us all. However, you have to realize how they get power. The old leaders in the middle east were not radical muslims, so why has this ideology taken root now? The only way to combat a problem is to find its source and destroy that. If you give these people a life, they will not throw it away. They feel left out, by the world, by their "sellout" muslims (rightwingers in europe etc) and by their own corrupt leaders, so they turn to the only ones who actually does something for them. Hamas is a bunch of shite, polticially, but socially they've done lots for the palestinians.
Undermining them, bombing more and creating more poverty, hunger and refugees will only escalate. For every fundamentalist you kill there will come ten more.
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19 Jul 2006, 16:27
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#110
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
In all honesty, I am sort of up in the air of how I feel about the whole thing. Isreal's response is too much, but the Palestians and their various supporters should really give up on violence if they want to improve their lives. Violence is not the answer.
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22 Jul 2006, 05:23
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#111
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Tilting at windmills
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 579
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Well today I went along to protest against the conflict outside the American Consulate. I don't have particularly strong feelings on the whole affair; however I regularly attend such things as a result of my involvement with Amnesty Intl and Human Rights Watch on campus.
It wasn't a large march, there were perhaps three or four hundred people in all. Unsurprisingly there were a few radicals in the crowd, some of whom had megaphones, and used these to good effect by chanting "Down down Isreal, Up up Hezbollah", "Victory to Hezbollah" etc.
Things took a turn for the worse when a protestor (A friend of mine actually ![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif) ) climbed on to the awning above the consulate, tore down the US flag and began waving the Palestinian one. The crowd cheered, but the twenty or so police there did not find the symbolism nearly as exciting.
When he descended, the Police tried to arrest him, and a scuffle broke out when the mob (It was a mob at this point) tried to prevent this from happening. The police caught him but were surrounded by the crowd, who began chanting "Let him go". A large scuffle insued and he eventually managed to escape, with the mob blocking the police from chasing after him.
Several others were arrested as a result, and things became rather heated between the Police Superintendant and a few of the more vocal protesters.
All in all it was a rather shocking experience, albiet on a fairly minor scale. I don't think I'll be heading along to another protest march on this issue. There are too many extremists, and too much potential for things to get out of hand.
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22 Jul 2006, 10:17
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#112
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Violence is not the answer.
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It really depends on the question. We can debate whether tactically this or that attack / defence should have been mounted (either at all or in that manner) but overall violence can't be ruled out in a situation like that. As James Cannon put it : "Those who want peace and security, without fighting or taking any risks, have simply chosen the wrong time to be born."
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23 Jul 2006, 07:39
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#113
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Tilting at windmills
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 579
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Just as a follow up to my previous post I thought I might post a video of the news story on it which contains a few images of the event.
I'm not sure why a peaceful anti-war protest needed to turn violent, it tends to undermine the whole message you are trying to get across.
In fact I'm not terribly sure whether protests are all that effective in the first place. I do not know why people decide to go to them, nor why anyone would give them more than a moments notice.
Here is the link, its the top video 1:43.
If nothing else, you can chuckle at how terribly backwards our TV news is, or laugh at their funny accents.
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[Fury] [1up] [Ascendancy]
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23 Jul 2006, 09:54
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#114
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Kiwi accents are fun.
The news anchors lady was a bit hot, but I haven't been near to having sex for a month now, so I would probably do anyone or anything right now
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You poor bastard.
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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24 Jul 2006, 01:24
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#115
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
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A bill of rights is set up in Palestine to defend basic human rights such as freedom of expression and religion. If Hamas, and all political parties, do not clearly and unequivocally state that they are abandoning violence as a means of political change they will be barred from running in subsequent elections. If Palestine ignores this all aid will cease. If Israel elects a party which advocates expansion into these areas they will be embargoed. If suicide bombers emerge from Palestine the Palestinian government will be forced to pay a sum, dependent on the damage, to the government of Israel, which the government of Israel will have to prove is being used in reconstruction of affected areas and aid to the victims' families. UN-funded courts of arbitration will be set up to deal with the no doubt countless problems which will emerge.
This will cost money. But my friends, you fix the world one problem at a time.
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Is this a serious proposal?
It begs the question: why was Hamas allowed to participate in the last election? And just how much control can one reasonably expect anyone to have over factions that allign themselves politically?
'If Palestine ignores this all aid will cease' - who on earth do you mean when you refer here to 'Palestine'? The government? Then why punish the people. The entire Palestinian population? Collective punishment is a symptom of the current situation. Both sides refuse to look past the extremists and ordinary citizens are becoming politically polarised as a result.
Frankly, you've just highlighted the problems that have dogged the peace process for years. As for fixing the world 'one problem at a time': isn't this Israel's current policy?
__________________
He shall drink naught but brine, for I'll not show him / Where the quick freshes are.
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24 Jul 2006, 01:42
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#116
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Not Dark or Handsome
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cwmbru
Posts: 2,588
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
France's silly snubby nationalism is a lot better than looking like a puppet state... ..Does Bush have dirt on Blair or something?
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I'd say a large proportion of British people feel and wonder the same.
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"You can't drink a pint of Bovril."
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24 Jul 2006, 09:53
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#117
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Is this a serious proposal?
It begs the question: why was Hamas allowed to participate in the last election? And just how much control can one reasonably expect anyone to have over factions that allign themselves politically?
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Because the situations are entirely different. In my scenario the UN is guaranteeing a peace process and an end to new settlements. In the current scenario all you have is vague promises from the Israeli government that have already been broken and unbacked up declarations from various national and supranational parties.
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'If Palestine ignores this all aid will cease' - who on earth do you mean when you refer here to 'Palestine'? The government? Then why punish the people. The entire Palestinian population? Collective punishment is a symptom of the current situation.
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This is missing the point. Currently what provokes the collective punishment response is actions from groups who either have no links to the government or whose links are extraordinarily questionable. What would provoke this collective punishment, and cessation of aid is not a punishment, aid being a privilege, is the government, elected by the citizens, bringing in legislature which discriminates against certain citizens. Obviously if it's "merely" a case of independent groups going around beating up Jews the sensible approach would be to offer help in catching these people and looking at avoiding any more "extremists" of this sort popping up.
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Both sides refuse to look past the extremists and ordinary citizens are becoming politically polarised as a result.
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I'm not quite sure why you're saying this to me but okay.
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Frankly, you've just highlighted the problems that have dogged the peace process for years. As for fixing the world 'one problem at a time': isn't this Israel's current policy?
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They could call it growing carrots on Pluto and it wouldn't make any difference.
However as I have done so far in this thread I would like to ask you to state your approximate solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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24 Jul 2006, 23:17
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#118
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
" UN launches Lebanese aid appeal"
You know who should pay for Lebanon's destruction. They should be forced to pay for the damages.
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26 Jul 2006, 00:49
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#119
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 421
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
gg guys
edit: gf is ok, hiding in the mountains with family and friends. her parents should fly to syria next week and pick her up.
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26 Jul 2006, 00:57
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#120
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
PLD ISRAEL!
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On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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26 Jul 2006, 00:57
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#121
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
I was just coming to see if anyone posted that.
I mean really.
For.
Fuck's.
Sake.
It's not even an accident in the sense of "oops we were bombing somewhere and they got caught in it" - they bombed the ****ing observation post.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Someone in the intel department is going to be taking a long walk off a short plank very soon.
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Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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26 Jul 2006, 00:59
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#122
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Non directed and witty
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: #ascendancy
Posts: 814
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Someone in the intel department is going to be taking a long walk off a short plank very soon.
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I think they bombed that already too
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CATHAAAAAARGH
I've won 4 rounds.
I'm kinda a big deal.
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26 Jul 2006, 01:21
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#124
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Just to summarize current info:
It was a well established, marked UN outpost.
It had been there for a long time (years).
The area around it was shelled at least 14 times in the last 24 hours.
The top ranking UN General in the battlefield told the IDF to watch what the hell they were doing.
Shortly after, it was bombed.
Now tell me how the hell ALL THAT happens by accident.
Even if the shelling was a mistake, how do you then go and bomb it when it's got giant UN markings and the UN general in the field asked you to stop attacking that exact observation post? I mean it's the UN for crying out loud, they're not exactly inconspicuous.
The sheer stupidity of it is something I'm having difficulty with, because I just can't see how there is any sensible explanation other than that they knew damn well what they were doing and this was done on purpose.
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Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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26 Jul 2006, 01:41
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#125
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Hey stop critizing Israel you anti-semetic jew hating NAZIs.*
*Redundant for twice the fun!
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26 Jul 2006, 04:14
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#126
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WANNASEEMYNEWCHAINSAW
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Éire
Posts: 2,738
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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I came, I saw, I shouldn't mix pleasure with carpentry.
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26 Jul 2006, 04:36
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#127
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
I blame the UN.
Predictably, UN forces have come under fire from both Hezbollah and the IDF. The "peacekeepers" shouldn't still be in southern Lebanon anyway as they have been unable or unwilling to even try to keep the peace. They're sitting smack in the middle of a war zone, and for what? The UN should have evacuated their forces years ago (ideally) but at least when the balloon went up a couple of weeks ago.
The longer they remain the more who will inevitably be injured or killed--for no purpose. :/
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The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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26 Jul 2006, 05:41
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#128
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I blame the UN.
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If I punch you in the nose, will you blame yourself?
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26 Jul 2006, 10:23
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#129
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I blame the UN.
Predictably, UN forces have come under fire from both Hezbollah and the IDF. The "peacekeepers" shouldn't still be in southern Lebanon anyway as they have been unable or unwilling to even try to keep the peace. They're sitting smack in the middle of a war zone, and for what? The UN should have evacuated their forces years ago (ideally) but at least when the balloon went up a couple of weeks ago.
The longer they remain the more who will inevitably be injured or killed--for no purpose. :/
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Like how people who walk through areas where violent crime occurs are to be blame when they get mugged or killed.
Or like how women who walk around dressed in short skirts are to blame if they get raped.
Or like how Israelis who live in israel and can afford to move to another more peaceful country are to blame if they get suicide bombed?
Sort of like that you mean?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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26 Jul 2006, 14:13
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#130
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Like how people who walk through areas where violent crime occurs are to be blame when they get mugged or killed.
Or like how women who walk around dressed in short skirts are to blame if they get raped.
Or like how Israelis who live in israel and can afford to move to another more peaceful country are to blame if they get suicide bombed?
Sort of like that you mean?
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Getting 2 out of 3 correct aint bad.
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On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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26 Jul 2006, 14:24
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#131
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Woo, update.
So they weren't just asked to stop once, they were asked 10 times and ignored. I see there's still no word of explanation out of Isreal, just an expression of their "deep regret" or the usual diplomatic bollocks.
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Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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26 Jul 2006, 15:23
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#132
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Like how people who walk through areas where violent crime occurs are to be blame when they get mugged or killed.
Or like how women who walk around dressed in short skirts are to blame if they get raped.
Or like how Israelis who live in israel and can afford to move to another more peaceful country are to blame if they get suicide bombed?
Sort of like that you mean?
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I think banks deserved to get robbed man, I mean look how much money they store. I blame banks.
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27 Jul 2006, 06:43
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#133
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
If I punch you in the nose, will you blame yourself?
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Well, if you're in a fight, and I step between you and your opponent (not to try to stop you, mind you, just to 'observe') and I get punched in the nose--then yeah, I'd blame myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Like how people who walk through areas where violent crime occurs are to be blame when they get mugged or killed.
Or like how women who walk around dressed in short skirts are to blame if they get raped.
Or like how Israelis who live in israel and can afford to move to another more peaceful country are to blame if they get suicide bombed?
Sort of like that you mean?
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None of those are remotely like pitching your tent on a battlefield, but thanks for playing.
War is like a freight train and it makes no sense to stand on the tracks and scream that the train should stop or go around you (it ought to and it might, but you'd still be foolish to put it to the test if you didn't have to). There's just no good reason to be in a war zone if you don't have to, and UNIFIL doesn't have to be there and shouldn't be there.
I feel sorry for the civilians in southern Lebanon who want to get out but can't; I feel angry at the UN who could and should have gotten their people out but didn't.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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27 Jul 2006, 07:55
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#134
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Well, if you're in a fight, and I step between you and your opponent (not to try to stop you, mind you, just to 'observe') and I get punched in the nose--then yeah, I'd blame myself.
None of those are remotely like pitching your tent on a battlefield, but thanks for playing.
War is like a freight train and it makes no sense to stand on the tracks and scream that the train should stop or go around you (it ought to and it might, but you'd still be foolish to put it to the test if you didn't have to). There's just no good reason to be in a war zone if you don't have to, and UNIFIL doesn't have to be there and shouldn't be there.
I feel sorry for the civilians in southern Lebanon who want to get out but can't; I feel angry at the UN who could and should have gotten their people out but didn't.
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Dude, it was a precision guided bomb, on a location clearly marked, where they've been for ten years or so, and they were asked 10 times. Stop being an irrational apologist. Or maybe you just hate the UN and like to see non-combatants blown up. They were still bombing the area while rescuers were trying to recover the bodies of the UN observers. Yes you can say, well they were in the war zone and it was possible, but what you can't say without looking foolish is 'I blame the UN.' I don't know about a deliberate attack, but was definetely willful negligence.
Last edited by s|k; 27 Jul 2006 at 08:12.
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27 Jul 2006, 10:05
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#135
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
None of those are remotely like pitching your tent on a battlefield, but thanks for playing.
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This is pretty funny
Quote:
War is like a freight train and it makes no sense to stand on the tracks and scream that the train should stop or go around you (it ought to and it might, but you'd still be foolish to put it to the test if you didn't have to). There's just no good reason to be in a war zone if you don't have to, and UNIFIL doesn't have to be there and shouldn't be there.
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Because then you go on to analyse it so that I can swap the words in and out from one of my examples. Observe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me!
Sexual desire is like a freight train and it makes no sense to stand on the tracks and scream that the train should stop or go around you (it ought to and it might, but you'd still be foolish to put it to the test if you didn't have to). There's just no good reason to be working down a dark street in a short skirt if you don't have to, and the girl who got raped doesn't have to be there and shouldn't be there.
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Quote:
I feel sorry for the civilians in southern Lebanon who want to get out but can't; I feel angry at the UN who could and should have gotten their people out but didn't.
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This is probably the first one of your posts I've ever read and thought "what a ****ing moron". Also UNIFIL is supposed to be there to observe the conflict and help where they can. Here's a list of what they do. As you can see there they are evacuating people out of the country, escorting humanitarian convoys where possible, transferring civilians from the IDF to the Lebanese government. Even from a purely utilitarian perspective they've probably saved more lives through being there than not.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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27 Jul 2006, 12:26
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#136
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 421
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
I feel sick:
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Israel says diplomats' decision not to call for a halt to its Lebanon offensive at a Middle East summit has given it the green light to continue.
"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.
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'All southerners terrorists'
He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.
"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.
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link
Is he ****ing serious? There are people who don't have the financial means to leave the area. There are people who are too old to leave the place. There are people in the south who are scared they will get bombed if they try to leave their houses.
How can the world sit idle at this and not do anything.
Hezbollah has kidnapped 2 soldiers. Hamas kidnapped one more.
Israel has taken a whole nation hostage, is terrorising the people by bombing infrastructure and roads. Seriously guys, how can anyone be supportive of Israel on this conflict?
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27 Jul 2006, 12:53
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#137
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Dum Di Dum Di
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 858
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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Originally Posted by Flavious 'link
He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.
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I'm sure the Norwegian charter-tourists still trapped down in south-Lebanon are extremely dangerous. I mean, it isn't like somebody bombed all the main-roads making it next to impossible to extract people safely. They clearly decided to stay there hiding in their hotels with their children to spite Israel.
Take a vacation in a war-zone, and you deserve what you get!
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27 Jul 2006, 12:55
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#138
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
people can support Israel because they support the war on turr, or they can carry on the fence-sitting umming and ahhing and "both sides are to blame" nonsense that has kept Western Europe and the States from investing too much interest in anything that isn't them and thus say "well I can see why they're doing it even if it's a bit excessive". For most people with an interest, of course this is plainly inching from rhetoric-genocide to genocide-genocide, and of course the 95% approval rate in Israel is distressing beyond words. However, as long as America is firmly behind Israel, for whatever reason - the influence of the Jewish diaspora, some sort of crusade against Islam, LSD -
Israel don't need to back down, and won't back down. And as long as Hizbollah, Hamas and their ilk are more concerned with furthering their aims than stopping the Palestinians/Lebanese from having the shit kicked out of them ewvery few days/years respectively, support in Europe and elsewhere can't completely solidify against Israel. It's a mess, but it's not getting better any time soon.
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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27 Jul 2006, 13:46
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#139
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
As I think I suggested, although it was irresponsible, Hezbollah actually got involved in an attempt to relieve the pressure on the Gaza strip.
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Sorry, I was unclear. I meant to imply although rereading it plainly didn't come across that if they stopped striking first in general - in the current situation, all bets are off - and forced the Israelis to be unquestionably the aggressors they could gain far more sympathy for their cause and put the Israelis into a very difficult position.
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Its too easy to say "its a mess"
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I hoped the rest of my post showed clearly enough that when I say "it's a mess" I'm really not talking about the tabloid style "oh waily waily who is to blame" meaning. I'm simply stating that things are in a bad place for the Arab populations in that area.
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I think its fair to doubt the good intentions of Western governments on this issue and assume they have no genuine concern for the Lebanese people.
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Depends on how you define "genuine". Are they unfazed by one of their allies deciding to murder hundreds of civilians for the hell of it? No, although they're probably used to it. Is the situation important enough to them that they're prepared to change their policies or condemn that ally? Of course not. Hell, they're still not bothering to fix the Sudan and who the hell are they expecting to object to that?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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27 Jul 2006, 14:53
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#140
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
I just spotted this
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Tactitus Searching Forums
Query: moron
User: JonnyBGood
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Good sir, you are one thorough man.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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27 Jul 2006, 15:17
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#141
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Admins shouldn't participate in debates.
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27 Jul 2006, 15:31
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#142
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Admins shouldn't participate in debates. ![Mad](images/smilies/mad.gif)
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Actually you can see that one through the "who's online" screen under "Quick Links".
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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27 Jul 2006, 15:32
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#143
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Actually you can see that one through the "who's online" screen under "Quick Links".
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Yeah but I just don't like you.
(And good point)
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27 Jul 2006, 15:35
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#144
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is probably the first one of your posts I've ever read and thought "what a ****ing moron".
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Thanks, I love you too.
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Also UNIFIL is supposed to be there to observe the conflict and help where they can.
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Um, no. Observation of conflict is not their mandate. They're there to prevent conflict, to act as peacekeepers, to "restore international peace and security" (a job at which they've consistently failed for the 28 years they've been in Lebanon). They've 'observed' decades of cross-border attacks that have twice escalated into a full-blown war.
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Here's a list of what they do. As you can see there they are evacuating people out of the country, escorting humanitarian convoys where possible, transferring civilians from the IDF to the Lebanese government. Even from a purely utilitarian perspective they've probably saved more lives through being there than not.
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Well I'm glad they've found something useful to do to keep themselves busy as they obviously have a lot of time on their hands what with not doing their job! Medals all around, what.
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Good sir, you are one thorough man.
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I was just checking if you'd called me a moron before. I seem to recall that you have, but there were too many hits to check through them all.
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The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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27 Jul 2006, 15:43
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#145
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
maybe if your ****ing country let them actually criticise the Israelis it would be easier for them to carry out their mandate!
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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27 Jul 2006, 15:50
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#146
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Raaaaaaaah!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,296
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
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Originally Posted by s|k
But there doesn't always have to be warfare. Especially when it's just a kidnapping of two soliders. How many people will die for these two soldiers?
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Sorry to backtrack through the thread but I think it's a pretty naive suggestion that "ALL THAT JUST FOR TWO SOLDIERS", it's like saying all those people died in World War One for one Arch Duke, the two soldiers were just the trigger.
Also silly Israel, when will they learn ? Although that picture of the soldiers dancing in front of the tank is hilarious.
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Hicks
Mercury & Solace
Always [Fury]
Last edited by Hicks; 27 Jul 2006 at 15:55.
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27 Jul 2006, 15:51
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#147
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Um, no. Observation of conflict is not their mandate. They're there to prevent conflict, to act as peacekeepers, to "restore international peace and security" (a job at which they've consistently failed for the 28 years they've been in Lebanon). They've 'observed' decades of cross-border attacks that have twice escalated into a full-blown war.
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Mandates change dear. However their original mandate, for the record is.
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Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
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Have to be there to do that!
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Restore international peace and security;
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Need to be there to do that!
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Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.
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And what do you know need to be there do that too.
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Well I'm glad they've found something useful to do to keep themselves busy as they obviously have a lot of time on their hands what with not doing their job! Medals all around, what.
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Are you trying to be sarcastic about people who are out there saving lives?
Your points seem to be fairly pedantic. "Oh they weren't doing what they were originally sent to do". So what? Do we require an official announcement from Kofi Annan stating that they're now in there to aid in evacuating civilians?
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I was just checking if you'd called me a moron before. I seem to recall that you have, but there were too many hits to check through them all.
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I did check them all and I hadn't. Although I did once accuse you of effectively calling me a moron.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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27 Jul 2006, 17:18
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#148
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Dum Di Dum Di
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 858
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Um, no. Observation of conflict is not their mandate. They're there to prevent conflict, to act as peacekeepers, to "restore international peace and security" (a job at which they've consistently failed for the 28 years they've been in Lebanon). They've 'observed' decades of cross-border attacks that have twice escalated into a full-blown war.
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I see this line of argumentation from Americans on slashdot quite a lot. It really, really bugs me. The general line of thought there seem to be that since the UN hasn't succeeded in making the world one big happy, happy place they're corrupt, inept and incompetent.
Far more relevant questions are what they actually have done and what would have happended without them. For all my lack of knowledge, I'm still convinced the UN peacekeeping forces are doing an admirable job, and being immensenly more usefull than nothing.
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27 Jul 2006, 17:49
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#149
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
There is no way the UN is to blame for this. I am glad the UN is there, who knows what Israel would be doing if it weren't for independent observers. Tacitus is obviously infected with the ridiculous Savage/Limbaugh/Hannity/Oreilly 'UN is a useless and treacherous organization' virus. My advice is to hit the FM button and tune into NPR for a few days.
On another note, I just love diplomacy: 'let's sit down and talk about talking about what words to use to talk about a possible resolution.'
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27 Jul 2006, 20:05
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#150
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Dum Di Dum Di
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 858
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
On another note, I just love diplomacy: 'let's sit down and talk about talking about what words to use to talk about a possible resolution.'
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And we all know how demands to 'do something, anything!' has been working so well in the US. With the various doomed 'wars on whatever' and all.. Anything to avoid being seen as indecesive, indetermined or suspected of having realised that acting on too little information often is worse than having acted at all.. right?
I'll take an inaction from an incompetent bureucrazy over the intervention in Yugoslavia every single time (and that one was amazingly regarded as one of the more successfull ones).
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