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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:12   #1
Hebdomad
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A Powder Keg?

I found the Netherlands' plan to ban Burkas amusing in its functional similarity to Iran's clothing requirements, which all the right-wing British newspapers were briefly up-in-arms about during the recent hostage situation. France and Germany's plan to ban the wearing of religious symbols in schools seemed a little iffy, even if well-meaning in its egalitarian nature, as long as you pretend there's parity between European and Middle-Eastern religiosity. Jack Straw's requests provoked quite a splash as well; although I didn't find his actions particularly vexing. Even as far back as the nineties anti-immigration parties managed to win over a sizeable proportion of the Danish electorate. And now France is bribing immigrants into leaving. I can't decide what's out of control, immigration (legal and illegal) or desperate policy-making.

I read an article a while ago arguing that governments won't do a lot in regard to illegal immigration because the cost of deportation would be enormous. I'd probably agree but that's not my vexation. I tend to wonder how this will affect the European polity and polities. The phrase "fortress europe" is pretty old-hat now but that doesn't really examine the social implications.

I tend to ignore the right-wing newspapers when they jabber on about this issue. But recently I've noticed more articles on BBC news online about strains on the NHS coming from eastern-european immigration, for example. When a trusted arguably left-wing broadcaster starts on the issue I tend to think it's more likely to spill over into the broader electorate and non-voting community. Indeed, I don't really think it's just the right-wing media's prevarications as I've noticed quite a lot of Polish immigration in middle-sized British cities.

Personally I'm not that bothered - I want freedom of movement in Europe and I'd be a hypocrite if I denied that to others - but I do not count myself as statistically normal so to speak. The one issue I do have is the plurality of languages, not because I dislike hearing other languages, but because it seems to indicate a lack of integration.

Obviously we're not complete neophytes to the integration game. The Hindu and Sikh communities from my experience have integrated well, in comparision to the Muslim community (mainly because those religions seems to have fewer requirements than Islam and, you know, we're not bombing and pillaging India anymore in comparison to the middle-east). But its increase make me wonder how things will change.

I see two possibilities. The first is an acceptance of social plurality. The yes there is immigration from Europe and farther afield, but that's okay because it's not like I'm threatened by immigration kind of attitude. Or the ger off me land ye foreigner kind of attitude. So the second is a fear of plurality and therefore the increased likelihood of action, governmental and social, towards a protection of the majority against the minorities to ward off extraneous cultural influences and the consequences on the labour market for example. These are obviously generalisations but they serve as good delineations.

So, what do you think this increased immigration, and focus on it, will lead to, using the above delineation if it serves your explanation. Personally, I'd want the former - tolerance of social plurality - with initiatives towards integration, but I'm unsure if the rest of the United Kingdom is behind me. Therefore, this thread.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:33   #2
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Re: A Powder Keg?

That BBC reporting that NHS struggle becouse of more people in certain areas:
If the health service is estimated to serve lets say 50.000 people in a town, and there is suddenly 60.000 people, ofcourse its going to strain things.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:33   #3
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Several European countries never really understood the idea of liberalism and associated civil liberties like freedom of speech/religion. Its not really surprising that places like France are equating seperation between church and state with the banning of religious clothing - theyve had really wacky anti-religion laws for quite some time now.

The modern immigration debate is a pseudo-problem that only comes up in its current form because we have government funded healthcare and a social welfare system; if these things didnt exist then people would be unable to frame the debate in terms of 'foreigners coming here and leeching off the state' or whatever the latest arguments are. Ultimately its really just a simple private property issue - if a person is able to acquire somewhere to stay in the UK then they should be allowed to live there, pending national security related background checks. If they can find a job they should be able to work, and so on. Like with most things, the government has no legitimate business getting involved at any level.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 May 2007 at 21:40.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:39   #4
Hebdomad
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Re: A Powder Keg?

It's only a pseudo-problem if you undervalue how much the welfare state and social protection defines European polities, which you obviously would being an economic liberal. Also, assuming the British model is the modal model instead of the exception is a little problematic if you're discussing European politics; although the economic liberalisation agenda of the European Union does support a descent of the welfare model, granted, but not its destruction.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:41   #5
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It's only a pseudo-problem if you undervalue how much the welfare state and social protection defines European polities, which you obviously would being an economic liberal. Also, assuming the British model is the modal model instead of the exception is a little problematic if you're discussing European politics; although the economic liberalisation agenda of the European Union does support a descent of the welfare model, granted, but not its destruction.
there's no point replying to him he edits quicker than alistair campbell on speed
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:43   #6
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
there's no point replying to him he edits quicker than alistair campbell on speed
In the software industry we call it iterative improvement
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:45   #7
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
In the software industry we call it iterative improvement
you don't work.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:46   #8
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
It's only a pseudo-problem if you undervalue how much the welfare state and social protection defines European polities, which you obviously would being an economic liberal. Also, assuming the British model is the modal model instead of the exception is a little problematic if you're discussing European politics; although the economic liberalisation agenda of the European Union does support a descent of the welfare model, granted, but not its destruction.
If you insist on having public services, then you necessarily need to have fairly strict immigration controls and restricted movement in order to prevent the system from being abused by foreigners. This is one of the many ways in which the welfare state is fundamentally incompatible with human freedom; you cant complain about immigration being too restrictive while simultaneously supporting a system which can only exist with restricted immigration.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:47   #9
Hebdomad
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Re: A Powder Keg?

I'd say the retort still stands anyway. You can't really look at the problem with the view that this is how things should be and I refuse to discuss the problem because everyone isn't doing what I think they should be doing.

Using italics is much more fun than finding succinct ways to express yourself, incidentally.


[edit] you also reply too quickly.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:50   #10
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Re: A Powder Keg?

That is a good point. However, I was asking for predictions as well if you could bring yourself to stop planning the destruction of Europe for just one second please.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:52   #11
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If you insist on having public services, then you necessarily need to have fairly strict immigration controls and restricted movement in order to prevent the system from being abused by foreigners.

if you have taxes you musts need have a way of differentiating between those who pay tax and those who do not when using tax money.

if you have a state you have taxes

repeat ad infinitum.

the need to restrict the access of tax paid for services to those who pay taxes is not a reason that the welfare state is wrong.

if the population of the world could use our road network on a daily basis then we would need to either:
1) stop them
b) tax them

Your petty stab at the welfare state is blundering and clumsy.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:53   #12
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
That is a good point.
now i think less of you for humouring him.

it was a ****ing awful point.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 21:56   #13
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Re: A Powder Keg?

i've positive repped you, for the love of sweet zombie jesus. there's a quote by edward de bono that i don't have time to quote. leaving work now. [edit] it was more social differentials anyway that i liked.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 22:03   #14
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I'd say the retort still stands anyway. You can't really look at the problem with the view that this is how things should be and I refuse to discuss the problem because everyone isn't doing what I think they should be doing.

Using italics is much more fun than finding succinct ways to express yourself, incidentally.
I dont think its productive to demand that everyone accepts your framing of the problem as a precondition to debate, especially when a) youre posting on a forum where a lot of the regular posters have fundamental disagreements with the current system, and b) the 'problem' is entirely an artifact of the current system and wouldnt exist if things were done differently.

If I started a thread that was meant to be a debate about the best way to prevent widescale patent infringment then I couldnt really complain if someone posted a comment challenging my premise that patent infringement is something which has legitimate existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if you have taxes you musts need have a way of differentiating between those who pay tax and those who do not when using tax money.
Yeah nice work restating what I just said.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 May 2007 at 22:11.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 22:15   #15
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The modern immigration debate is a pseudo-problem that only comes up in its current form because we have government funded healthcare and a social welfare system;
Yes and no. There's certainly an element of this, but some of the people who hate immigration are also people who don't want any welfare state anyway.

The political formaiton which dominates Europe historically is the nation-state. Now the European nations are not like the US. They are not relatively indifferent to the language/culture/creed/ethnicity of the peoples within. Instead, European nationalism has been (to an extent) formed around ideas of ethno-nationalism which at it's worst has been merely tribalism scaled up. Of course these "historical tribes" have always been fallacious - attempts to try and connect modern nations with a set group of people (the Greeks, Spartans, Aryans) have always self-indulgent nonsense at best. But perhaps the changes which occurred before, the earlier assimilations happened slightly more slowly in some cases, or were not so visible.

But what's happening at present is the cultural/religious/ethnic composition of these states is changing before people's eyes. In the space of less than one generaiton entire communities are springing up, or moving/dissipating. If you don't place any value at all in the cultural/ethnic identity of your neighbours then obviously this is all going to seem like bizarre or merely mean spirited behaviour when it manifests.

If nothing else it is rather definitive proof that things aren't under the control of nation states - no matter who you vote for there will be globalisation - manifesting in more international trade, more movement of people across borders, more harmonisation of laws, etc. TINA - There Is No Alternative, as they used to say. But while Thatcher may have glorified the idea of "TINA" when it was her versus the Unions, I think many of her fellow party members would not be comfortable that TINA be applied to continued, sustained immigration. The logic of letting a few blacks in to do the shit jobs after the war made sense, but now you're getting to a stage where if the maths continues "they" (whomever "they" are) will be a minority in "their" land. For a variety of reasons this makes people feel uncomfortable.

edit : Do not underestimate the strength/popularity of certain biological racist type ideas even if they're not in vogue. If you had some truth ray that would cut through self-censorship and asked the question "Do you think african blacks are innately slightly less intelligent than Whites/East Asians" then I would be surprised if a clear majority of people between 40 and 80yrs old didn't answer in the affirmative.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 22:19   #16
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah nice work restating what I just said.
i removed your clumsy stab at the welfare state.

i also demonstrated how clumsy and disingenuous it was.

*kisses*
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Unread 23 May 2007, 22:21   #17
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The political formaiton which dominates Europe historically is the nation-state. Now the European nations are not like the US.
rubbish.

the US functions in almost exactly the same way as the Holy Roman Empire except for two points:

1) the US is comparitively marginally richer
2) the US government hasn't yet ordered the execution of luther.
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Unread 23 May 2007, 22:38   #18
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
rubbish.
I felt awkward typing that as I'm not even sure I believe that. Perhaps the manifest destiny, protestantism and the spirit of whiteness are much more integral to the US as a self-conscious notion than I think...but to me USian identity seems less about a specific people and their descendents. Perhaps that crap.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 11:49   #19
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Uhm. I don't know why you've gone back on your point. European identity seems more correlated to race than the North American.

Nodrog, I don't mind people challenging the premises of my arguments as that makes debates interesting; however this thread was more about how European nation-states and their citizens would react to the problem, not how do you remove the problem, although it has been interesting - I think we're bonding.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 16:00   #20
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if the population of the world could use our road network on a daily basis then we would need to either:
1) stop them
b) tax them


Toll roads.
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Unread 24 May 2007, 16:04   #21
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Anyways there's probably something to be said for a welfare state. Benefits are a way of redirecting wealth in an attempt to reduce inequality. The larger the inequality gap the more social unrest which is bad for "business". To have a benefits system you need to have a way of deciding who is entitled to it and when you set that at "people who were born here" (or after 01/01/1983 "people who were born here who were born to a British Citizen"*) then immigration becomes an issue.









*not strictly correct but it'll do for this discussion
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Unread 24 May 2007, 22:17   #22
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Toll roads.
you chose b)

(in case you missed it.)
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Unread 26 May 2007, 07:07   #23
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Re: A Powder Keg?

[quote=Hebdomad]Uhm. I don't know why you've gone back on your point. European identity seems more correlated to race than the North American.
[quote]

I agree as to the US, though I don't know about the European countries.

I supervise nine people.

Justin is the grandson of Japanese emigrants.
Angel is the grandson of Mexican emigrants.
Thanh is the daughter of Vietnamese parents.
Maria's father was born in Iran.
Keesha is the decendant of African slaves.
Monique is descended from French Hugonots.
Annamarie's father is Irish and her mother is Italian.
Todd is a Mormon.
Paul is decended from Danish emigrants.

They are all VERY American. They are all very loyal to each other.

The problem with immigration, whether legal or illegal, comes when the influx of immigrants is greater than the rate of the society to assimilate the immigrants into the greater culture. Massive influxes of members of other cultures causes great disruptions in the cohesiveness of the host country. On the other hand, an influx of immigrants at a measured pace appears to strengthen a nation and enrich its culture.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 15:37   #24
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Re: A Powder Keg?

There's definitely a form of moral panic over immigration that isn't really justified. Everyone enjoys a good moral panic though and it's certainly going to sell more newspapers than printing gigantic tax reports on the front page. I'd prefer to see the state changed so that regardless of numbers we couldn't start making stupid decisions simply due to popular backing. Of course that won't get the necessary popular backing to happen

In reality we'll probably make some silly, counter-productive decisions and end up putting immigrants through the sort of complete shit that'll lead to their children becoming more aggressive towards the state they end up living in because it didn't offer their parents a single iota of respect. Maybe then we can stick them into concentration camps or something, I hear that's worked out well before.

I'd like to point out as regards dda's post that, ignoring whether or not there really is an acceptable rate of immigration in terms of overall population size, there's no reason this can't reach a really high number due to the influence of other factors.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 18:32   #25
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Are you asking me how I would change the system or how I would change the system in order to change the system?
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Unread 26 May 2007, 19:29   #26
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Change is always accompanied by discontent, resentment and hysteria. It is part of accomodating change and making the adjustment to it. Look at the dislocation, resentment, discontent, etc. caused by a few hundred thousand Americans moving in to Iraq.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 20:20   #27
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
first one
Stronger constitution, less administration, widespread popular campaigns to help people understand what is being changed and why. I summed it up once for someone as fewer politicians and more judges and I think that sort of hints at what I'm aiming at. I've written a fair bit on it elsewhere on these forums, unfortunately I am leaving soon for the night so I cannot offer you my current version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Change is always accompanied by discontent, resentment and hysteria. It is part of accomodating change and making the adjustment to it. Look at the dislocation, resentment, discontent, etc. caused by a few hundred thousand Americans moving in to Iraq.
No, change is frequently accompanied by those things. And that is the most idiotic example you could have possibly offered given what we're actually talking about.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 20:31   #28
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Just like the Iraqis, it appears that you don't appreciate a joke.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 03:25   #29
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Change is always accompanied by discontent,
ahhhhhh

I didn't know that you were a radio 4 listener as well ...
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Unread 27 May 2007, 11:28   #30
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
ahhhhhh

I didn't know that you were a radio 4 listener as well ...
the miricle of internet radio.
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Unread 28 May 2007, 22:29   #31
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Re: A Powder Keg?

I rather hoped the end of social welfare and national health would.
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Unread 28 May 2007, 22:38   #32
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Re: A Powder Keg?

I'm quite willing to make the sacrifice of paying a few more years of substantially less tax than before and I'm quite willing to make that decision for everyone else. I'm a pragmatic anarcho-utopian.
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Unread 28 May 2007, 23:03   #33
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood at 8.20pm
unfortunately I am leaving soon for the night so I cannot offer you my current version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood at 10.29pm
I rather hoped the end of social welfare and national health would.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 12:00   #34
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Re: A Powder Keg?

I'm talking about how I'd change the state, not how I'd effect change in the state, which is what i meant by change the system to change the system.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 12:20   #35
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Am I the only one thinking "Judge Dread"? A more informed citizenry would be ideal but that would leads to more transparency which would open up the parliament and executive to far too much scrutiny for their liking I'd hazarded to guess. Besides, whom? The press, the governement, civil society? It would get rid of the fear factor though assuming it's not contorted etc etc. I lost the will to finish this post in the middle of that last sentence how queer.
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Unread 29 May 2007, 12:53   #36
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Out of interest, how would health services (for example) be administered?

Private healthcare would leave potentially millions without coverage (yo Nod) and some kind of voluntary donation would presumably take time to take hold in the attitude of the nation there by resulting in large-scale deterioration (yo Dante).

Or do you have another theory, some kind of 'third way'?
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Unread 29 May 2007, 13:32   #37
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Out of interest, how would health services (for example) be administered?

Private healthcare would leave potentially millions without coverage (yo Nod) and some kind of voluntary donation would presumably take time to take hold in the attitude of the nation there by resulting in large-scale deterioration (yo Dante).

Or do you have another theory, some kind of 'third way'?
I think the traditional big-L Libertarian thinking on the fallback to charitable contributions is "if they get sick, well **** 'em".
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Unread 29 May 2007, 15:07   #38
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Re: A Powder Keg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I think the traditional big-L Libertarian thinking on the fallback to charitable contributions is "if they get sick, well **** 'em".
Indeed. However I'm not a libertarian.
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