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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 14:04   #101
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
This is my position. Because I believe that those facts and figures are a factor but they aren't necessarily the be all and end all of what I term to be the quality of society.

I do not think Yahwe is concerned with facts and figures of 'standard of living', he is concerned with society in terms of the quality of people and their mentality towards living and he might be right.
Eighty years ago an even larger portion of the population were nationalistic, jingoistic morons. Eighty years ago people lived in crushing poverty with literally no means of escape (while this is still true elsewhere in the world it is largely untrue today across the western world). To be honest I'm not really sure what you mean by mentality of people towards living and their "quality".

Quote:
What you've done is taken your own favoured definition of society and run with it. I don't think it's a bad definition as it goes. But from the definition that I inferred from Yahwe's post, I don't see what's he said as being horrifically wrong.
I've taken a factual and empirical definition. If you want to waffle on about the quality of people living today that's your prerogative but I doubt your audience will be much wider than those who tell you that England was a lot better before the blacks moved in.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 14:09   #102
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In terms of social improvement in the West, of course there is technology, but there is a question to be asked about the extent to which we transferred our poverty abroad. People in this country enjoy cheap food because Africans and Asians accept lower wages for the produciton of that food and so on and so forth.
Surely most of those in crushing poverty abroad, ie those you can best claim to have been disadvantaged by world trade, are involved in cash crop production, which aren't really what I'd call "essential" food supplies. Unless you're talking about a general trade gap which leads to first world farmers being able to produce food cheaper through massive government subsidies. That said most of those subsidies seem to just line the pockets of farmers rather than be invested in lowering food costs. Conversely maybe they'd raise their prices to compensate but I doubt the nature of the market in this case would let them.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 14:28   #103
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Re: The Dole

While I would agree with you over some of that living standards have risen absolutely worldwide for at least the last fifteen years. Further technological improvements have reduced dependence on certain classes of imports. I'm sure it's obvious to all of us that it is not a necessity that for living standards to improve in place x they must become lower in some place not-x.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 14:52   #104
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well of course that is true, although it is equally obvious that whereas living standards have improved incredibly for some of the people in the world, others are living in conditions which approximate to the stoneage and there seems to be some corrolation in this.
Given that the instances of large groups of people being significantly worse off today than they were before colonisation and the beginnings of mass exploitation are rather rare you'd have to say that at most you could accuse the west of accelerating its growth, rather than its growth being dependent on poverty abroad.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 15:35   #105
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Given that the instances of large groups of people being significantly worse off today than they were before colonisation and the beginnings of mass exploitation are rather rare
I'm not really sure what conclusions we can sensibly draw from this. There's an audio extract floating round the web where Noam Chomsky responds to a similar point by saying that slaves in North America circa 1840 probably had better economic conditions than slaves in North America circa 1700. What does that tell us? That slavery wasn't economically depressing the living standards of slaves?

(Obviously there are issues against slavery which have nothing to do with economics (in the strictest sense) but you can see what he's getting at.)
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 15:39   #106
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Re: The Dole

Bar the fact that the last one in itself doesn't have a whole lot to do with economic benefit at "home" yes, and I did acknowledge that. I think we're at rather crossed purposes with both of us acknowledging that standards of living in the western world are high and you making the point that previously this was achieved through colonial exploitation and the trade barrier remnants of it, and my point that future growth is achievable without exploitation.


Come on guys I'm not defending corporate welfare here
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 16:55   #107
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Re: The Dole

One benefit of having some type of workers assitance while they search for a job might be that it gives them time to find something that is satisfying for them, and challenges them, and exploits all of their skills, thus making a happier and more productive work force and a better economy.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 17:01   #108
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The current quality of society is the standard of living of its members. And quite frankly you're rather exaggerating the number of people who work themselves into the ground in the pursuit of wealth they don't spend. Just look at basic facts and figures such as life expectancy, infant mortality, food consumption etc if you still don't believe me that today's society is better than that of eighty years ago.

id agree with this but there are certain areas where life has gotten worse (in the last few decades), housing is one example. If i were german id prefer to have been working a few decades ago on a 35 hr week (or even 28hr) than now. 'My generation' will have to work harder for longer in return for less physical assets to support a generation who despite all their problems did have it better in certain respects.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 19:40   #109
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Re: The Dole

I think of the 44 quid as something of a token gift really. I would think most people who can live off £44 can live off nothing.

The health benefits are probably as useful and there is actually information about finding jobs, CV help and stuff.

i got glasses while I was on the dole and must have got about 1 months worth of £44's. I've also been told it pays your NI for you too. If you don't pay you'll not get a state pension!
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 20:00   #110
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Re: The Dole

It appears that I must condescend to explain myself.

Given that we are talking about employment, that I was talking about proportions of the population in employment, my point was as follows:

(Disclaimer: I am not going to reiterate the points which lokken picked up on, though i am going to look down on you for being too stupid to notice. Lokken btw is ****ing fantastic)

The proportion of the population in work has increased to a ridiculous rate. This is because of many factors, but the increase in the cost of consumables to the point where families need both parents working to survive and the once privately wealthy being forced to work is the key issue.

In terms of the negative effects on society directly caused by having more people in work now than we did 80 years ago; The negative effects have increased.

In terms of the positive effects on society directly caused by having more people in work than we did 80 years ago I; what positives there are do not outweigh the negative.

I imagine that those who didn't manage to understand my point the first time around will now do one or both of the following:
1) focus upon 1926
2) focus upon anomylous examples

let's see shall we.

EDIT - That sounds a bit negative. Please focus upon whether increasing the proportion of the population in work has actually improved society more than it has harmed it (IF you wish to disagree with me ... ho ho ho)
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:19   #111
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Eighty years ago an even larger portion of the population were nationalistic, jingoistic morons. Eighty years ago people lived in crushing poverty with literally no means of escape (while this is still true elsewhere in the world it is largely untrue today across the western world). To be honest I'm not really sure what you mean by mentality of people towards living and their "quality".

I've taken a factual and empirical definition. If you want to waffle on about the quality of people living today that's your prerogative but I doubt your audience will be much wider than those who tell you that England was a lot better before the blacks moved in.
I am talking about the strength of family units (be they single parents etc etc), nurture and the resulting confidence, self-worth and common sense in people which is unquantifiable. The only way to measure this is by looking around you. Excessive employment actively damages this.

I am not talking about anywhere outside these shores, as you've taken a somewhat global outlook on this thread.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:22   #112
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
EDIT - That sounds a bit negative. Please focus upon whether increasing the proportion of the population in work has actually improved society more than it has harmed it (IF you wish to disagree with me ... ho ho ho)
That's not what you said. Furthermore the increase in employment directly lead to widespread benefits in both health and education which have not been isolated to those who moved into the workforce. And it has led to improvements in the economy which have led to a decrease in overall time required working in hazardous conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I am talking about the strength of family units (be they single parents etc etc), nurture and the resulting confidence, self-worth and common sense in people which is unquantifiable. The only way to measure this is by looking around you.
So what you're saying is that people are less confident and have less self-worth than in 1926 today?


PS I wasn't alive in 1926
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:32   #113
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe

EDIT - That sounds a bit negative. Please focus upon whether increasing the proportion of the population in work has actually improved society more than it has harmed it (IF you wish to disagree with me ... ho ho ho)
I disagree, as I don't think you can realistically defend that position because to totally deny the facts and figures as being of any value whatsoever to society is terribly blind sided in my view. What I think you can defend however, is that there is a point where excessive employment does become counterproductive and from there perhaps that this point has been passed.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:38   #114
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

So what you're saying is that people are less confident and have less self-worth than in 1926 today?
No, I am simply arguing the possibility that because employment has become excessive and thus counterproductive because there is less nurture, we are producing individuals who are not as good as they could be if there was less employment. Although I can't be sure of where this point is precisely, I feel it HAS been passed but I am certainly not advocating we return to 1926 or any such like.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:45   #115
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
No, I am simply arguing the possibility that because employment has become excessive and thus counterproductive because there is less nurture, we are producing individuals who are not as good as they could be if there was less employment. Although I can't be sure of where this point is precisely, I feel it HAS been passed but I am certainly not advocating we return to 1926 or any such like.
This, while probably valid when taken in isolation comparing the two concepts, ignores the fact that there are a whole load of associated knock-on effects from higher employment which counter-balance the situation in terms of "producing well-adjusted individuals".
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:47   #116
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This, while probably valid when taken in isolation comparing the two concepts, ignores the fact that there are a whole load of associated knock-on effects from higher employment which counter-balance the situation in terms of "producing well-adjusted individuals".
I didn't say higher employment was bad, I said excessive employment was. Read my reply to Yahwe for further reference.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 22:48   #117
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Re: The Dole

Yahwe, dear, I agree with you in part and disagree with you in part.

There are aspects of society which have not been improved and can be argued to have deteriorated over the last 60 years. (I thought I would narrow a bit.)

Greater ability of mothers to stay home and nurture children was a benefit of that by gone era. A benefit which I enjoyed.

However, my mother who had to stay home with me because jobs of a suitable nature were not available to women in the profusion they are today would have disagreed.

The great imnprovement in society over that period of time has been greater freedom for a greater number of people to determine how they would like to make their way through this world.

The idea of providing a safety net for those who are unable to provide for themselves is relatively new in the world. The idea of providing support to those who are capable of supporting themselves but feel that others ought to support them is a concept for which I am not ready.

As to Pig's situation in particular, I don't see a problem with Pig taking advantage of a subsidy which can help ease his transition into the work force where he will take care of himself for many years to come.

I don't have a problem with people who work all of their life and get to retire because of the fruits of their labors.

I don't have a problem with people who inherit wealth.

I don't have a problem with those who are the "renter class."

Investors (people who risk their wealth in pursuit of more wealth) don't trouble me either.

I hate entitlements. I have no problem with privileges. Pig is privileged to get a subsidy because he is willing to look for work. He is not entitled to get a hand out if he doesn't chose to seek work.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 23:01   #118
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
What I think you can defend however, is that there is a point where excessive employment does become counterproductive and from there perhaps that this point has been passed.
I don't see why I need to change the syntax of what I said.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 23:16   #119
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I didn't say higher employment was bad, I said excessive employment was. Read my reply to Yahwe for further reference.
At what point does employment become excessive? It's not even just one broad sweep of the brush, while excessive employment in upper middle class families may have negative effects, jobs are still required at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 23:18   #120
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The proportion of the population in work has increased to a ridiculous rate. This is because of many factors, but the increase in the cost of consumables to the point where families need both parents working to survive and the once privately wealthy being forced to work is the key issue.
World trade and the resultant increase in international competition has recently increased consumer buying power hugely (especially for consumables). The notable exception is fuel: A cosumable rapidly increasing in cost, but not necessarily because of high employment rates.

What has become vastly more expensive is land and property, which I conceed is a direct result of both a growing population and a growing number of people in employment (& increased demand to have more than one home). A considerable rise in demand has been met with a much slower rise in supply (naturally), and so this non-consumable product becomes much less affordable. Thus, for a family to afford a nice home and all the things that go along with that, often both parties must be in employment. Whether you consider this negative to society is a matter of opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
In terms of the negative effects on society directly caused by having more people in work now than we did 80 years ago; The negative effects have increased.
So yes, perhaps more families need to have both parents in work. For the sake of us apparently less knowledgable beings, could you please list and describe these negative effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
In terms of the positive effects on society directly caused by having more people in work than we did 80 years ago I; what positives there are do not outweigh the negative.
I disagree. Although there isn't a right opinion as this is a value judgement. I think a strong ethos of self support is necessarily a good thing: It builds character, it inspires people to challenge themselves to achieve what they want in life. Often people will take the wrong path, and either fail or do something they don't enjoy because it pays more, and they feel some kind of obligation to earn as much as possible (no matter how miserable the job may be). But these problems cannot be solved through instilling a reduction in the employment rate, and are not necessarily related to it.

Back on topic with this thread, I have no argument with families who would choose to have one parent stay home, and receive some minor support from the government to pay the bills etc. I have no problem with what Pig has done by taking some support while he finds a job to bide him over until he finds a career.

What I resent is having families where neither party works, and having individuals who depend on state support long term (that comment excludes those who cannot work). I don't think either of these groups has anything worthwhile to offer society - and I deal with a lot of these people daily.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 23:24   #121
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Yahwe, dear....
Excellent post. Hit the nail on the head.
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Unread 21 Jun 2006, 23:45   #122
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Why shouldn't he be? What if he were an artist or a writer?
Then the fruits of his artistic or literary labour must support him financially.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 00:10   #123
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The idea of providing a safety net for those who are unable to provide for themselves is relatively new in the world.
Ahh...no. Like every other western moron running around thinking they know something, you don't. The world is big and great, and your knowledge of it is not. Please, in the future, qualify your statements to what you know. Thank you.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 00:59   #124
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Please, in the future, qualify your statements to what you know. Thank you.
s|k is a psychotic asshole. But then that is common knowledge.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 01:29   #125
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Re: The Dole

Men are free to make choices but must live with the consequences of those choices.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 01:38   #126
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Men are free to make choices but must live with the consequences of those choices.
the consequences are the problem, you see, not the existence or otherwise of this nebulous 'choice'. You present a choice: live shackled, or die. To others is presented the choice: live free, or live freer. What seperates those who recieve the first choice from those who recieve the second - frequently at birth - is the existence of property rights. The purpose of the meagre safety net is to alter the first choice ever so slightly: Live shackled, or live destitute. The system remains flawed, but it becomes safer from the desperate element.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 02:36   #127
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The safety net is not for those that will not work or cannot work. The safety net is for the middle class, the bourgeoisie. Benefits are not liberal benevolence, although they might have been sold that way. Benefits are the way the middle class keep the wolf from the door, they drown out the screams of the disposessed and stop from looking at your life and your possessions and asking 'how dare you?'
This is melodramatic tosh, in my opinion. There is no such thing as a unified underclass, gnashing their teeth and baying for the blood of the wealthy. Inequality is inbuilt and is to be celebrated. Inequality is what makes us individuals. Frankly, you do the poor a disservice. To the socialist the poor have proven themselves incapable of being wolves; they are merely stupid sheep, blind and bleating.

Quote:
How dare you expect people to submit to the system that has robbed them of their freedom and chide them if they do not do so.

“Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains.”
I believe that freedom as you conceive of it can never exist so long as society exists and the complexities of human relationships require structure and demand that individuals assume responsibilities for themselves and others.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 09:19   #128
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Tyrant
I think of the 44 quid as something of a token gift really. I would think most people who can live off £44 can live off nothing.

The health benefits are probably as useful and there is actually information about finding jobs, CV help and stuff.

i got glasses while I was on the dole and must have got about 1 months worth of £44's. I've also been told it pays your NI for you too. If you don't pay you'll not get a state pension!
Your probally right, if you can live on 44 quid you could probally get by without it, if anything it probally helps out most of all with covering the costs of trying to find work. 44 quid buys you plenty of train tickets to get to local interviews, buys you plenty of paper/ink/envelopes/stamps and can also help towards costs of undertaking courses to make you more employable (for example maybe learning to drive, or gaining some kind of certificate to prove you can do that job - although the Job Centre will pay for some courses)

On the CV help and stuff you must have been going to one of the few decent job centres, the staff at most just want to get you out of the door and really dont want to give you help and even if you ask they dont really put in much effort, atleast thats what i found.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 09:21   #129
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I haven't conceived of society in this thread, I merely pointed out the society that exists. That is a society based on unjust property ownership. Unjust property ownership protected by the state.
Realistically speaking, how would you propose dealing with property?
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 09:54   #130
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
So yes, perhaps more families need to have both parents in work. For the sake of us apparently less knowledgable beings, could you please list and describe these negative effects?
We now live in a society of 'latch key kids' which has had a deprimental effect on society. Parents and kids rarely see each other in a modern household with the parents shifting their parenting responsabilities onto the schools and the kids themselves (and with the schools having their power totally crippled they cant do much).

Without a parential figure to get attention from or to provide discapline the kids will often act upto get attention from elsewhere or as a cry for help. The longer this goes on the worse this playing up often gets until they become little more than thugs.

To make up for the lack of attention they give the kids parents then start splashing out on elabortae gifts which reinforces the idea that playing up gets you what you want and encourages kids to continue acting in this way. Its actually why rich kids are traditional the major tearaways as they are often brought up by third parties and are bought with gifts by their parents so they rebel and its now filtered down into everyday society.

What makes it worse in the lower classes is these gifts are often not affordable for the parents, they really dont have a few hundred quid to buy the latest console or simerlar to make up for their lack of being there for the kids and this either means they have to work more, or take it on credit which can get them in further problems and mean even more work is needed and this ultimatly means even less time is spent with them.

Now Its not just working practices that bring about this and not all kids that end up like this as some parents have the ability to actually be a parent and work so are able to give the kids the attention they need, discapline them and instil some social awareness into them but it does play a major part and its something thats hekping undermine any improvements to society that have been made

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
No. That person who has 'worked hard' (and most don't. I would know, I'm a student) for their degree, should get a job to bide them over whilst searching for a career. Getting a poor job in the meantime does nothing to harm your prospects for finding a career, and you're in no way tied in to that job.

Job seekers allowance never was, and still isn't, there to provide a break for people inbetween careers or new graduates looking for a career.

oh and Furyous I find your views a little strange and hypocriical tbh. Your sitting there acting as if you dont like state handout yet you yourself are currently receiving them and seem to have no problem about yourself and others getting them even though you openly admit most just piss about. The handout i'm talking about is your further and higher education. No matter what admin fees the college charges you or the Top-Up fees and such like your charged the amount your paying is a FRACTION of the actual amount that putting you through college and uni is costing. You are being subsidised by the tax payers in this country to get your qualifications, qualifications that you werent forced to get but chose to go and get. You chose to receive state hand outs but under a guise that has not stigma attached to it so as far as I see it its not your 'beliefs' that would stop you claiming benifits to help you gain employment but rather the fact that like alot of people (especially those whom go to uni) your a snob and think its below you
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 10:17   #131
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Re: The Dole

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Originally Posted by Furyous
Pyrit, is that a picture of you on your avitar? Are you the lead singer of a band called vega 4? If it is you, you look just like him, btw.
It is me, and I can assure you I am not (as far as I am aware*) related to the lead singer of Vega 4.









*Unless my mum has a "past" we know nothing about.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 10:29   #132
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Re: The Dole

Realistically most middle and upper-middle class students are effectively put through college by the taxes their parents pay. If those taxes weren't paid they'd put them through anyways.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 10:53   #133
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Inequality is what makes us individuals.
It really isn't. Saying that we are equal is not the same as saying we are identical. Inequality only exists when value judgements are made. I am non-identical to all humans as soon as I am born. I am only unequal in the context of a social system. Man is born equal, he is made unequal by the tyranny of social arrangements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Realistically speaking, how would you propose dealing with property?
I very much doubt there is a single satisfactory answer since ideal solutions will vary from case to case. I would start with the moral precept that the world belongs to all humans. How we administer it really depends. A persons home should be basically entirely private (there are exceptions, as is already the case) but a town square should probably belong (and be administered) by the whole town. The pacific ocean or the rainforests are probably more generally the property of the whole world and administration would have some international dimension.

The point of contention really is the starting point - the world does not belong to a small cadre of individuals, regardless of how noble or valiant they (or more usually, their ancestors) are or were.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 10:57   #134
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Re: The Dole

All private possessions are products of the land though dude. What would you count as private possessions?

Quote:
As an internationalist I believe that all the world's resources belong to everyone and should be enjoyed by everyone.
I entirely disagree. I don't think the world's resources belong to anyone or everyone. To be honest I don't see how ownership of anything is justified except pragmatically.

Further I find
Quote:
No one needs vast acres of land or to own a huge media organisation to live, these things should be in the realm of the commons to be administered by everyone using some suitable mechanism.
rather strange. Did not dear Karl himself state that needs change? Personally I find the ability to create is a fundamental expressive need.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 10:59   #135
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Exclamation Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Realistically speaking, how would you propose dealing with property?
Since when did anyone on this forum talk realistically about property, or anything else for that matter?
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:06   #136
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Since when did anyone on this forum talk realistically about property, or anything else for that matter?
As a better man than me once said (actually no wait he didn't as I just made this up) at least an idealist has ideas.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:08   #137
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Realistically most middle and upper-middle class students are effectively put through college by the taxes their parents pay. If those taxes weren't paid they'd put them through anyways.
And at the same time most people whom claim benifits will only be getting paid back the money their parents have paid into the system in the first place. So its swings and roundabouts
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:10   #138
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Exclamation Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As a better man than me once said (actually no wait he didn't as I just made this up) at least an idealist has ideas.
That's irrelevant. Your requiremnent that Dante should speak "realistically" is completely incongrous when you talk about abolishing welfare and Jon talks about anarchism or Nod talks about abolishing taxes or whatever. Pretty much the only thing that unites people on this forum when they talk about such matters is a total lack of any adherance to the reality of whatever they believe in being implemented.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:11   #139
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Oh dear DDA, you have missed the point so terribly widely.

The safety net is not for those that will not work or cannot work. The safety net is for the middle class, the bourgeoisie. Benefits are not liberal benevolence, although they might have been sold that way. Benefits are the way the middle class keep the wolf from the door, they drown out the screams of the disposessed and stop from looking at your life and your possessions and asking 'how dare you?' How dare you expect people to submit to the system that has robbed them of their freedom and chide them if they do not do so.
I'm sorry to have to tell you that this kind of thinking is long past it's heyday. Why? Because this underclass you speak off is so dwindling in the UK that it's not even a ununified force. Most are now lower middle class in that they own their own property and support themselves as necessary. And thank god say I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
As Oscar Wilde said:

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
I don't believe old Oscar was at all in favor of paying for others to live as they want to. This particular comment was probably more of a rebuttal to those who criticised his lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Benefits are not out of pity, they are, morally speaking, compensation for the theft. Property IS theft. The bourgeoisie have no right to their comfortable lives, they have bought off the poor and convinced themselves that the poor should be grateful. If they ever woke up there is nothing that could be done to prevent them from taking it all back, no argument could be made, no authority to appeal to, no law to pass.
Again, rather outdated and archaic ideas. I always used to laugh at the way the word 'bourgeoisie' was repeatedly brought up as though you were saying 'the evil' stole from 'the good'. As someone else commented, how would you deal with property without a system of personal ownership, and without a financial system? Remember, money is only in existance to make trade so much easier. If property was bought by richer people from the poor, then that is their compensation. I don't believe any agreement was made to keep paying 'them' for that land over and over again (in benefits).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tocata & Fugue
It is easy to say: I have no compassion for those who will not work. Just as the policeman says that he has no compassion for those that disobey. "Get a job, do as your told and it will all be OK." Well I look around and I say that is not good enough.
There are a minumum number of jobs or tasks that need performing in every community. If there is no incentive or reward (in property/money etc) for anybody to do those jobs instead of not doing anything, then why would and should they do it? If nobody does anything, then society is crippled.

I consider myself free: I can quit my job whenever I want. So long as I am flexible enough, I can choose any job for which I am suitably qualified. I can travel anywhere in the world at very little expense. I can pursue any friendships or relationships I consider of value, and am under no obligation to pursue any others. I have not got myself financially committed, and will not do so until I can support that commitment without tying myself down unnecessarily.

If all that is not true for somebody else then it is not society, or capitalism, that is at fault, it is their choices in life. But they will always have had a choice. People have proven again and again that a poor childhood does not prevent you from being extremely successful in life. Nobody is ever coerced into having only one option available to them. Where there is choice there is freedom.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:17   #140
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And at the same time most people whom claim benifits will only be getting paid back the money their parents have paid into the system in the first place. So its swings and roundabouts
Not so. Many people who claim benefits, certainly those who claim them extensively, are often born into crippling poverty in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
That's irrelevant. Your requiremnent that Dante should speak "realistically" is completely incongrous when you talk about abolishing welfare and Jon talks about anarchism or Nod talks about abolishing taxes or whatever. Pretty much the only thing that unites people on this forum when they talk about such matters is a total lack of any adherance to the reality of whatever they believe in being implemented.
It's not a requirement it was a question. I acknowledge that some of my beliefs are both inconsistent and unrealistic. If you can find me a man who doesn't have beliefs that are inconsistent and unrealistic I'll find you a god. However I'd die a happy man if I thought I'd advanced our progression towards a moral society.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:21   #141
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Exclamation Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's not a requirement it was a question.
No it wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I acknowledge that some of my beliefs are both inconsistent and unrealistic. If you can find me a man who doesn't have beliefs that are inconsistent and unrealistic I'll find you a god. However I'd die a happy man if I thought I'd advanced our progression towards a moral society.
I'm not really criticising you mr dude man, just the way you framed the previous post which seemed a little hypocritical.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:23   #142
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It really isn't. Saying that we are equal is not the same as saying we are identical. Inequality only exists when value judgements are made. I am non-identical to all humans as soon as I am born. I am only unequal in the context of a social system. Man is born equal, he is made unequal by the tyranny of social arrangements.
I dont totally agree. If we were all equal in societys eyes then we would be little more than mindless drones with little to distiquish us. Its the inequalities in society that offer us rewards and also motivation for being different from others and push us forward. Its that very reason why some of the most wealthy people in the world are people whom would be considered unequal in society at birth are so wealthy as it was the fight against the system and the desire to have a higher standing in society that got them there.

Its why the Marxist ideal is so flawed because if every role in society was equal and paid equal we would have no reason for anyone to better themselves or push for advancements
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:23   #143
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I am talking about easily reproduceable goods which have little or no externalities. The precise nature would be decided between people themselves. I don't see why this would be difficult to understand. Say I own a hammer, well its my hammer, someone can't just come and take it without asking, they can get their own bloody hammer. However if there was some sort of dispute about this it wouldn't be too hard to settle on an individual level. There's no need to codify hammer regulations.
Where can I get aforementioned hammer then? A hardware store I presume? Built where? Using what materials?

As regards the second paragraph I don't see how you can justify ownership of your hammer.

Quote:
Again you seen to have difficulty reading what I have said. Did I say anything about not having the ability to create or innovate? No I didn't. Its a complete different question but as I said each according to need. If people need things and they are available then I don't see why they can't have them, I am nor against entrepreneurial activity, but if it onvolves the explotation of others then that is simply not on. If it involves depriving people, then that is not on. It seems quite straightforward to me.
You didn't explicitly mention it. If needs change then who evaluates them? If exploitation occurs, who decides when it starts and moves on from co-operation? Bar the mighty demos I do not know. And I, for one, rather dislike democracy with those sorts of wide-ranging powers.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:26   #144
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
No it wasn't.
"Realistically speaking, how would you propose dealing with property?"

Grammatical tip - when it ends with a question mark, it's usually a question

Quote:
I'm not really criticising you mr dude man, just the way you framed the previous post which seemed a little hypocritical.
Apologies if it came across as such. We've done these debates so many times I often just skip over certain "formal qualifiers".
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:29   #145
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
All private possessions are products of the land though dude. What would you count as private possessions?
Everything comes from the land at some point (well, in a sense), but I don't see why that matters. You can keep the products of anything you make. I'm much more interested in land itself, especially as a lot of issue concerning freedom etc are affected by this (going back to a point made in another thread).
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:32   #146
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Everything comes from the land at some point (well, in a sense), but I don't see why that matters. You can keep the products of anything you make. I'm much more interested in land itself, especially as a lot of issue concerning freedom etc are affected by this (going back to a point made in another thread).
So would I be allowed to go around strip mining wherever I feel like it? Anyways I'm going to go out on a limb here and say T&F didn't make his hammer. In all likelihood it was probaby produced in Shithole, Africa by Onepore Exploy-Ted Blacman.

PS T&F you have two points five there. I know you like progress but I think we can hold onto the old numeracy system
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:33   #147
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I dont totally agree. If we were all equal in societys eyes then we would be little more than mindless drones with little to distiquish us.
I don't think you've understood what I was saying. I believe I am your equal. This does not mean I am the same as you, or that you and I are equally as good at a range of activities. No doubt your abilities in many areas outstrip my own but I still see us as equals. Because equality is a moral position.

Quote:
Its the inequalities in society that offer us rewards and also motivation for being different from others and push us forward.
Speak for yourself. When I work hard / do something it's to make my life better. I don't give a shit if I'm "winning" against someone else. Quite frankly my penis is not so small that all my motivation is "versus" someone else.

Quote:
Its that very reason why some of the most wealthy people in the world are people whom would be considered unequal in society at birth are so wealthy as it was the fight against the system and the desire to have a higher standing in society that got them there.
Yeah, I'm going to need some evidence for the above as it sounds fairly ridiculous.

Quote:
Its why the Marxist ideal is so flawed because if every role in society was equal and paid equal we would have no reason for anyone to better themselves or push for advancements
With respect, what do you know about Marxism? Where does "marxism" say everyone should be paid equal?
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:35   #148
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Exclamation Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
"Realistically speaking, how would you propose dealing with property?"

Grammatical tip - when it ends with a question mark, it's usually a question
The use of the words "Realistically speaking" - which is what we've just being speaking about - was placing a condition on the answer to the question you mongnard.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:37   #149
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So would I be allowed to go around strip mining wherever I feel like it?
Of course not. Because the land would be managed by everyone. If they agree to this then knock yourself out.
Quote:
Anyways I'm going to go out on a limb here and say T&F didn't make his hammer. In all likelihood it was probaby produced in Shithole, Africa by Onepore Exploy-Ted Blacman.
Well, presumably that wouldn't be the case in this hypothetically different society. But there's nothing wrong with trade or the division of labour, that's something that predates capitalism and no doubt will outlast capitalism by billions of years.
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Unread 22 Jun 2006, 11:38   #150
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Re: The Dole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
"Realistically speaking" - which is what we've just being speaking about - was placing a condition on the answer to the question you mongnard.
So it's a specific question. I really don't follow, the only way it would be a requirement would be if I threatened him with something unless he didn't post in the fashion I asked for. This is a rather dull point dude
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