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Unread 17 May 2008, 12:52   #1
Mzyxptlk
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Stats Round 27

So what's the plan? Completely new stats? The current stats? The current stats, but slightly modified? And who's going to do it?
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Unread 17 May 2008, 13:43   #2
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Re: Stats Round 27

I hope at least the ETD will be changed. Give them back a steal ship or better replace their EMP-Cloak by a Steal-Cloak... too nasty ?
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Unread 17 May 2008, 13:49   #3
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Re: Stats Round 27

A complete overhaul of one race inevitably leads to an overhaul for the other races (or at least it should).
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Unread 17 May 2008, 13:54   #4
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Re: Stats Round 27

I thought this rounds stats were pretty balanced, with etd and terran doing worst and zik/cath doing best so I dont think a complete overhall is necessary. tbh it depends on what ppl thought of the stats, if a lot of ppl hated them then they should have a complete overhaul, if most ppl liked them just fiddle a bit.

while I think complete overhauls are needed from time to time its probably not necessary this time.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:03   #5
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Re: Stats Round 27

Cat and Zik were very good this round. Maybe a bit more firepower to Ter and Xan. Etd need more defense ;}
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:03   #6
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
I thought this rounds stats were pretty balanced, with etd and terran doing worst and zik/cath doing best so I dont think a complete overhall is necessary. tbh it depends on what ppl thought of the stats, if a lot of ppl hated them then they should have a complete overhaul, if most ppl liked them just fiddle a bit.

while I think complete overhauls are needed from time to time its probably not necessary this time.
Afaik ND's highest ranking player is Terran and top30, so I'm sticking with terrans were simply underrepresented. Same goes for ETD.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:08   #7
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alezzar
Cat and Zik were very good this round. Maybe a bit more firepower to Ter and Xan. Etd need more defense ;}
Umm...30xandas in the top100? 64 in the top200? 163 in the top500? In a round with a lot of emp-races? I really don't see what you mean about xandas needing any kind of upgrade...

Also, Caths were falling, and would have kept on falling. Shorter rounds benefit caths, as did the prevalence of caths. Ziks did well in part because Asc was mainly zik. Etd supposedly have trouble holding on to roids, which is to be expected if you only use their EMP ships. There may be some tweaking to be done, but as a whole the stats are quite balanced.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:14   #8
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Re: Stats Round 27

Xan never needs an upgrade. People have complained about Xan getting worse every round, but really nothing changes.

I heard some complaints about Etd CR, though I'm not sure how legitimate they were. Gate seemed unable to come to an agreement with Wishmaster over it.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:24   #9
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Afaik ND's highest ranking player is Terran and top30, so I'm sticking with terrans were simply underrepresented. Same goes for ETD.
hmm there were 21% of the uni as terrans but they only represented 16% of uni size, and 13.5% of value/score if that is not a race doing badly I dont know what is! (everything stolen from sandmans)

it may simply be that there were loads of terran scanners and almost none of the best players chose them but then U have to ask the question y did a load of ppl who have normally been terran and done well with them before decide they would not be able to play them in r26?
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:35   #10
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Re: Stats Round 27

terran statistics get always skewed because of it being the choice for nubs, real statistics are harder to get
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:37   #11
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Re: Stats Round 27

I wonder if the poor performance of terr has something to do with the similar situation with etd or vice versa because as far as fr fleets go they are natural team ups the emp directly compensating for the terr init problem - and as a DC I saw very few terr bs fleets for no obvious reason because it was probably better than the fr fleet really
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Unread 17 May 2008, 14:45   #12
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
terran statistics get always skewed because of it being the choice for nubs, real statistics are harder to get
being nubs does not necessarily make them bad players, I had 2 nubs who did very well until they quit as they felt they did not have the time.

also I was a complete nub in r24 who played terran and was T100

and anyhow if thats the case then y did so few old players not play them?

May 17 00:29:33 <booji> terran did really badly this round
May 17 00:29:44 <Bazza> well it was bound too
May 17 00:29:52 <booji> yeh did well last round
May 17 00:29:52 <beward> they wernt to bad
May 17 00:29:59 <Bazza> one glance at the stats told me that
May 17 00:30:01 <beward> on targets without FR def at least :P
May 17 00:30:12 <Bazza> & I've played terran for 20+ rounds
May 17 00:30:39 <booji> yeh I played em the last 2, they did not look like they would do well
May 17 00:30:41 <Bazza> but no way was I gonna play with poxy FR pods
May 17 00:30:57 <Bazza> so I went xan instead
May 17 00:31:20 <Bazza> & played it like terran

seems like the reason to me?
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:04   #13
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Re: Stats Round 27

To me Terrans seemed okay in active gals but being a big Terran must be really hard, seeing as getting roids with such late inits and the FR being really shit against fi\co def.
As for etd Id be inclined to perhaps make one of the etd FR ships into kill or steal .
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:06   #14
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Re: Stats Round 27

To be honest having a quick look at the final rankings I don't think terran were that bad at all. In ascendancy we had one terran player who would have definitely gotten t100 bar the fact he crashed horrifically twice. Denial have one terran player on our intel in the t500, he finished 82nd. Nox have two, one t100, one 350th or so. ND have two, one was 30th or so, one was 250th. xVx have three, one 250th, one 430th and one exactly 500th. Now if those are the top five alliances and you consider the fact that you could probably make t500 by logging in once a day and building mines I think the problem with terrans was the fact they were underrepresented as a whole among capable players, not that they were fundamentally flawed. Looking at the sandmans rankings and who finished as the best terrans the indication is that it's not the same sort of problem that cathaar experience where they need tons of def. The second and third ranked terrans for example are in galaxies outside the t50. In general though people didn't think terran were good so didn't pick them.

Etd are kind of weird. I'd probably do something different with them again if I had the choice like sticking all their ships in two classes like we tended towards this round a bit. They don't really fit in that well though. What I wouldn't do is go back to making them the hodge podge of races that they have been in previous rounds. That just ****ing sucks.


Edit: Reasons like they didn't have de pods so I didn't go for them are basically irrelevant in terms of an objective evaluation of the stats.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:10   #15
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Re: Stats Round 27

Hi all!

i was a nub this round. thats why i chose terran. they are definetly underrated.

terran BS for the winz!!!
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:13   #16
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Re: Stats Round 27

A quote from the movie Boondock Saints:
"This mix-and-match shit has got to go!"

And that's all I'm going to say about ETD steal-ships.

The best terrans went pure fr-fleets afaik. The amount of tarants and bombers aroung made the bs-fleet a lot harder to pull off.

Nfi who Bazza is, but I had 4 traditional terrans in my BP and I've not heard any complaints from the two that did play terran(me and lordn chose zik since my plan was to go 2terr/2zik and we have more experience with them).
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:22   #17
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Re: Stats Round 27

maybe something for etd.. would not really chance much else, the players made the ranks not the stats this round.

About etd.. only thing what makes me wonder about them it the fact why didn't anyone try arrowheads in their att fleets to force defence actually to send fighting ships instead of just pure emp flak.. Anyways damn good race in team up's with zik's.. or just in team up's with terrans but that still leaves them vulnerable to mass fi/co flak.. so would need a zik as 3rd guy late in the round..

About xan's.. saw exactly one good fleet out of them, people went too much for fr/de or pure fi/co. With fr/de fleet, and a lot of phantoms you could have 2-3 fleeted with "real" looking fr/de to each target or kept phantoms for ally def.. Anyways didn't see anyone doing this as pro choice.. so have to wonder why.. as it would have been efficient as hell just like my early round roidings with fi+ 50% fr/de x 2 fleets what both looked like full zik fr/de fleets especially in team ups with xan's.. only that xan can do it after fleet analyzis aswell.. what's ridiculously advantage what I didn't see no one using..
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:39   #18
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Re: Stats Round 27

Terrans can do well but i honestly dont see Terrans with the current stats have much to doin the t10\20 even if more good players went them.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 15:57   #19
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Re: Stats Round 27

Im not saying that terrans cant do well, ofc they can! I think that any race can, and indeed could with any of the stats of the last few rounds. the main point is that if you are looking at the stats it appears that if there are weaker races they appear to be terrans and etd. it appears from what sun_tzu is arguing is that U would change nothing, I was simply saying that perhaps terrans and etd were 1st in line for some tweaking, not that they require wholesale changing!


^^I am not quite sure how that makes me a moron in the context of a debate about whether there should be any changes to the stats, and if so how much. Assuming something is going to be changed (something normally is) it seems to me that terrans and etd would be the 1st I would fiddle with and I believe that I am entitled to this view as much as you are entitled to yours. (ps done in edit as another post would certainly not contribute to the topic)
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Unread 17 May 2008, 16:54   #20
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'll make only 1 quote from PA:
Eitraides 183(12%)

i read steal ships are bad, old ETD stats were crap, but people played them in r25... what the point in having a 'great ETD r26 stat set' if nobody pick them ?
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Unread 17 May 2008, 17:09   #21
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
terran statistics get always skewed because of it being the choice for nubs, real statistics are harder to get
True. But then again perhaps it would be an idea to remove terran as the default choice, have that blank, so the new players are making a choice based on what characteristics of a race they like the look of.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 17:38   #22
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJN
True. But then again perhaps it would be an idea to remove terran as the default choice, have that blank, so the new players are making a choice based on what characteristics of a race they like the look of.
They shouldn't. Terran is the most straight forward race there is, and new players have plenty of other things to learn to use without further complication.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 18:12   #23
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Re: Stats Round 27

bring back single targeting
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Unread 17 May 2008, 18:54   #24
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Re: Stats Round 27

Yes I'm a cath "fanboy". Just to start with that.

Cath , have the highest average score. 3rd average value , 3rd average on roids.

The reason Cath's have so much xp, is that if you dosn't get enough def, you need to get score without keeping roids.

There is only one way to become a huge cath, get def and keep your roids.

Wich basically aint going to happend if your not a defleech !

I have said it before and can say it again..

Cath's can almost not be to powerfull, they get roided anyways.

So basically, cath on their own is way underpowered.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 19:19   #25
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
They shouldn't. Terran is the most straight forward race there is, and new players have plenty of other things to learn to use without further complication.
Well I think a lack of fire power is a hindrance for new players. I dont improved armour is a particular help. Nor is it all that easy to attack with Terran. I didn't think either attack fleet this round were particularly good. I would think Xandathrii helps more, given the cloak.

Again, new people should choose their race on what appeals to them, rather than a race that is spoon fed to them. If they choose a race more in line with their own personality, they will play the game better.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 19:30   #26
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Re: Stats Round 27

Their should be some more firepower for terrans, have always played them exept for one round as etd.

the only good attack ship are wyvern, frigs were to easy to freeze when attacking cath, so that only left etd to attack them with and often needed a team up.

so i would give some more firepower to terran frigs, certainly because of terrans being weak anti co.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 19:49   #27
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Re: Stats Round 27

I think the problem with etd this round wasnt so much with their steal/cloak/emp balance, it was more to do with the fact that out of all the races they had the least concentrated fleets. ETD cr was been slated as being poor in practice, but without it etd's had no anti cr to speak of, and due to the fact they had to flak huge numbers of taras they needed considerable numbers of cr, that then made their 'good' roiding fleet of fr weaker than other races of comparable value. Lancers with cr as t2 would have made them far more viable.

I dont know if it was intentional or not but their were actual choices to be made for the most part in regards to which fleet to build, as both were viable options. The majority of xans went de + bombers, though the co was just as good (the #1 xan was fi/co + bombers). Cath was co and taras or cr and beets. ziks went heavy de from what i saw, though arguably that was a result of the prevelance of taras and the use of fr flak vs caths. It's certainly something that we've not seen much of in the last few rounds and only really etd that were forced to build both or leave themselves open to an attack class. No doubt they along with terrans were also under-represented by active players, though arguably thats merely a reaction to them being weaker on paper.

All in all though i wouldnt object to a slight rework of the current stats as has been the tend recently, as they were well done and balanced for the most part. Id prefer a new set though, mainly because eveyone knows what works well now and repitition is boring. Changing stats is like the only real variety we get between rounds of pa, and at least a new set require a measure of intelligence to work out.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 20:04   #28
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJN
Well I think a lack of fire power is a hindrance for new players. I dont improved armour is a particular help. Nor is it all that easy to attack with Terran. I didn't think either attack fleet this round were particularly good. I would think Xandathrii helps more, given the cloak.

Again, new people should choose their race on what appeals to them, rather than a race that is spoon fed to them. If they choose a race more in line with their own personality, they will play the game better.
The race should not be stronger, or everyone will play it. It should however be simpler, which it most definitely is. Lack of firepower is irrelevant, increased armor reduces chance of fleet annihilation. The fact that you're even challenging this makes me question your judgement.

Further, if you think players check the manual and stats before even signing up, you're flat out objectively wrong.

In all honesty, I don't even know why I'm bothering to argue with you, because when you're spewing out this nonsense, you're obviously not going to change your mind, no matter how many rational arguments I provide to convince you otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donar
Their should be some more firepower for terrans, have always played them exept for one round as etd.

the only good attack ship are wyvern, frigs were to easy to freeze when attacking cath, so that only left etd to attack them with and often needed a team up.

so i would give some more firepower to terran frigs, certainly because of terrans being weak anti co.
Just because they have a weak spot doesn't mean it should immediately be remedied. There is such a thing as intentional flaws. The reason they're there is that they keep the stats dynamic.


P.S. Sorry Sov
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Unread 17 May 2008, 20:09   #29
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Re: Stats Round 27

Lancer as Fr->BS\CR couldnt work as one race shouldnt target everything with 1 class. Changing Lancer to DE class and targetting cr\bs could work though, although that would mean that there would yet again be noone building cr\bs.
Ideally both attackfleets should be viable imo.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 20:16   #30
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Lancer as Fr->BS\CR couldnt work as one race shouldnt target everything with 1 class. Changing Lancer to DE class and targetting cr\bs could work though, although that would mean that there would yet again be noone building cr\bs.
Ideally both attackfleets should be viable imo.
yeah lancer as de would probably work better, even tho only building one class does give you a significant disadvantage in other areas. i think the viability of de as anti cr was offset a fair amount this round by taras being t3 de, which would still give it some balance.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 20:35   #31
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Re: Stats Round 27

@Mzyxptlk
i'm aware that every race has it's weakness, but their must be something wrong with terrans, because haven't seen many top Terrans this round.

Is this because of new players taking Terran, doubt it, have seen many old players taking Terran too. And hardly getting in to top 100.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 21:01   #32
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Re: Stats Round 27

From the outside it looks like cath are still fundamentally 'broken', in as much as they're a win big or lose big race. I'd be tempted to dump them or etd, and have no race with over 3 or 4 EMP ships.

I'd also love to see a round with more branching tech tree. I have an idea for a set and if I can thrash them together I'll try to put them up after my exams.

EDIT: If we're not going to make drastic changes, I'd like to see these stats used as a basis for a few more rounds. Seems silly to throw out a decent set.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 21:36   #33
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Re: Stats Round 27

Caths have only one big problem, need to be extremely active, and almost no killships.

But then again, if they have a good mix of emp and killships they would be to powerfull.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 21:46   #34
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
From the outside it looks like cath are still fundamentally 'broken', in as much as they're a win big or lose big race. I'd be tempted to dump them or etd, and have no race with over 3 or 4 EMP ships.

I'd also love to see a round with more branching tech tree. I have an idea for a set and if I can thrash them together I'll try to put them up after my exams.

EDIT: If we're not going to make drastic changes, I'd like to see these stats used as a basis for a few more rounds. Seems silly to throw out a decent set.
A few hours ago, dec and me were discussing the pros and cons of creating a single pool of ships for all races, from which people could then choose a custom subset (within certain limits of course) of ships to build. We kept running into major objections for every implementation we thought of, so I'll be interested in hearing yours, if it's anything like it.
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Unread 17 May 2008, 22:59   #35
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donar
@Mzyxptlk
i'm aware that every race has it's weakness, but their must be something wrong with terrans, because haven't seen many top Terrans this round.

Is this because of new players taking Terran, doubt it, have seen many old players taking Terran too. And hardly getting in to top 100.
As I've said a few times, the only good players I knew that picked terran did quite well, one of them was the highest rank player in ND, the other one was a nox'er who managed top100 without being a defleech. I dare say had Amon played in Asc this round he could have easily broken top20, perhaps even top10(and Amon is far too much a teamplayer for that statement to be taken lightly).
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Unread 18 May 2008, 04:58   #36
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
They shouldn't. Terran is the most straight forward race there is, and new players have plenty of other things to learn to use without further complication.
This has been an issue for me for years. Essentially, if Terran is to be the default race, then i think it should be made easy to play. Which means you need pods in the smallest (FI/CO) category so that they can attack early. They need high armour so that they can get killed less (ie, attacking without knowing what you're doing as a xan = 100% fleet killed. Same for cath. Ziks are hard to calc due to stealing and so its hard to tell if you win or loose, and Etd depends on the round).

So, yeah. A clearer progression for Terrans if they are to be a default race is important. Imo.

GJN: Armour helps as you're less likely to get outright killed (read: demotivated, quit) as easily or frequently. Eventually, players come to realise that other things like initiative, EMP and faking is important - but not necessarily from the get-go. Emphasis in training new players should be on early attacking, as risk taking behaviour like that is the fun part of the game. (EDIT: seems like Mz pointed this out too - sorry). I have to agree with Mz (though not with his tone - grr!) that new players to the game would even consider looking at the ship stats or race descriptions before starting to play. At best, a quick description on the signup page, eg (Terran - High armour, low firepower, poor initiative), Xandathrii (low amour, low firepower, poor initiative), Zikonian (High firepower, High armour, average iniative), Cathaar (High firepower, low amour, good initiative), Etd (who knows???) - would help in the situation you describe with no set "default race" - but i still think keeping Terran as the default because its simple is a good move. I mean, how do you describe the high firepower of Caths that doesnt actually kill them? And so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
As I've said a few times, the only good players I knew that picked terran did quite well, one of them was the highest rank player in ND, the other one was a nox'er who managed top100 without being a defleech. I dare say had Amon played in Asc this round he could have easily broken top20, perhaps even top10(and Amon is far too much a teamplayer for that statement to be taken lightly).
That might be true, but at the end of the day its just one player. Somewhere above, about 7 or 8 players were identified as top 500 terrans. Now, even by an objective proportional measure, that seems like they're under-rated. The problem is determining whether there is a negative perception of Terran's ship stats which is causing the under-representation, or whether the ship stats themselves cause the under-representation. Its probably a mixture of the two, but the tipping point might not be that far. Especially with most of Asc/STOOM going Zik, that reduces the proportion of all other races in the top 500 (or 100, heh) as well, and should be noted.

At the end of the day, though, is it really a worthwhile goal to try and achieve some sort of balance between the races? Is it important to have 20%/20%/20%/20%/20% of the universe as each race, or of the top 500, top 100, top 10? At what point is it OK to have differences in the proportion of races?

I'm thinking that it isnt really that important to have a high proportion of each race in the top x ranks. As long as there is some variety (eg, 3 ideally 4) races that are highly competitive in the top ranks just to keep things interesting. Now, i dont think that people should be screwed by choosing a weaker race, however the apparent weakness should be notable before the round starts so people can substitute away before the round starts ... but the next round, those top 3 might change.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 05:18   #37
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd also love to see a round with more branching tech tree. I have an idea for a set and if I can thrash them together I'll try to put them up after my exams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
A few hours ago, dec and me were discussing the pros and cons of creating a single pool of ships for all races, from which people could then choose a custom subset (within certain limits of course) of ships to build. We kept running into major objections for every implementation we thought of, so I'll be interested in hearing yours, if it's anything like it.
Whilst i have concerns about there being a "best of all worlds" kind of solution to the choices of ships in such a situation, i still think its a very interesting idea.

Could one of you start a new thread about this topic to keep the discussion seperate (assuming that there wont be a major overhaul for this round, which i dont think will happen given that this set is still fairly fresh and only needs relatively minor tweaking)? I'd like to see the pros and cons that you discussed Mz, and the idea(s) that you had, Gate.

Cheers.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 06:38   #38
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Re: Stats Round 27

To answer the original question in the thread, at this point unless someone wants to step up and mod/redo stats the same stats are going to be used for r27. Cin asked me to do them, but I simply don't have the time or the desire, if someone else wants to take a crack at it find me on IRC (#support or #strategy are always good places to find me).

Overall I thought the r26 stats were pretty good. They certainly had their problems, but as far as stats go we've had far worst. Having played Xan I will comment that Xans could easily get away with just building FR/DE (they could only really be beaten by EMP) which made them a bit boring to play in my opinion. I prefer when the stats make both attack fleets seriously viable options, and since xan DE were significantly better then CO I was a bit disappointed. Overall however well done Sun_Tzu and JBG.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 09:41   #39
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
That might be true, but at the end of the day its just one player. Somewhere above, about 7 or 8 players were identified as top 500 terrans. Now, even by an objective proportional measure, that seems like they're under-rated. The problem is determining whether there is a negative perception of Terran's ship stats which is causing the under-representation, or whether the ship stats themselves cause the under-representation. Its probably a mixture of the two, but the tipping point might not be that far. Especially with most of Asc/STOOM going Zik, that reduces the proportion of all other races in the top 500 (or 100, heh) as well, and should be noted.

At the end of the day, though, is it really a worthwhile goal to try and achieve some sort of balance between the races? Is it important to have 20%/20%/20%/20%/20% of the universe as each race, or of the top 500, top 100, top 10? At what point is it OK to have differences in the proportion of races?

I'm thinking that it isnt really that important to have a high proportion of each race in the top x ranks. As long as there is some variety (eg, 3 ideally 4) races that are highly competitive in the top ranks just to keep things interesting. Now, i dont think that people should be screwed by choosing a weaker race, however the apparent weakness should be notable before the round starts so people can substitute away before the round starts ... but the next round, those top 3 might change.
There were 7-8 terrans in the top100, if that was what you were getting at, and about the same proportion in the top500(45 i.e. 9%). As far as top terran players comes the ones that did play terran this round(and I'm not saying most chose not to based on stats, f.ex. most of asc wanted something different after having been terran last round) did as well or better than was to be expected for their circumstances. There is a certain weakness against fi/co, however few races fi target fr(corsair t2, harpy t2, spider t3), but it's more a problem of the way multi-targeting is set up at this time. Terrans will play quite differently at the top of the scale as opposed to the bottom of the scale, whilst at the top you require teamups for best performance(at which point terr+zik or terr+etd become nigh on unstoppable), at the bottom of the scale the high armour should allow new players to quite freely land attacks on most targets their size or slightly smaller, assuming no defence.

I generally hold that Terrans were quite balanced this round, as imho were all races. There's room for some minor tweaks, but most of what we saw this round was due to some races being represented to such a large extent(Cath mainly).

Oh, and I hold that I am by far the most authoritative person on Terrans around, as I'm the only person of the old strategy crowd that got identified as a "typical terran" (check my pa-wiki page if you don't believe me, I've been annoyed at it for years now but cba to change it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I prefer when the stats make both attack fleets seriously viable options, and since xan DE were significantly better then CO I was a bit disappointed.
Again, more to do with the round than the stats, and most of the top ranking xandas were infact fi/co
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:08   #40
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Re: Stats Round 27

I really dont want the EXACT same stats to be used for next round. Id like to see a few minor changes for etd\terran atleast.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:30   #41
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Re: Stats Round 27

Let me propose a few changes then to spark som discussion:

Lancer changed from FR class to DE class and now targetting BS\CR.
To 'counteract' this change Wyvern targetting to FR\DE
Change the Centaur to targetting FR\Co
Drake targetting FI\CO
Phoenix targetting CO\FI

Ideally what Id like some of this to do is for Terrans to build less Harpies and more phoenixes as the universe needs more anti co(IMO).
Im not sure on the whole dmg\armour aspect after the new targetting changes but Im sure someone smart(HI JBG\SUN) can do something with that.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:30   #42
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Re: Stats Round 27

If there are no changes then I doubt I will play, not because I felt there was anything particularly wrong with last rounds stats but simply because I dislike monotony, and half the fun early round is working out new combos and stuff
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:40   #43
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Let me propose a few changes then to spark som discussion:

Lancer changed from FR class to DE class and now targetting BS\CR.
To 'counteract' this change Wyvern targetting to FR\DE
Change the Centaur to targetting FR\Co
Drake targetting FI\CO
Phoenix targetting CO\FI
I like the lancer change but it would mean that no one would use etd cr/bs at all... although perhaps they should be used more, as a cathaar this round etd cr fleets were always difficult to beat.
Having the Drake targeting fi/co is effectively demanding that peg's make a return, and would certainly make terrans more difficult to be roided by xan or cat co (particularly with the centaur still targeting co as well) however it would mean that terrans would now probably feel they have to have both de and fr in attack fleet or else get alot of corsairs in defence against them. This would be even worse if they still have a hole against de in their fr attack fleet.
wyvern targeting de too would on the other hand probably make the bs fleet too strong, although I am sure that some ppl think that the bs fleet is in need of an upgrade
so in effect would this be hobbling the fr (much like terran de was in r24/25) and a return to very effective bs fleets?
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:46   #44
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Re: Stats Round 27

Im not sure, as I said it was posted to spark and argument.

If Terrans do focus on BS now theyre back to being wide open to co incs due to no fr flack. Yes the Drake would be alot like the old peg, however the init wouldnt have to be as early.

I know noone would use the etd cr\bs(except maybe guardians for defence?) but surely it will make etd a bit more attractive to play.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:46   #45
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Re: Stats Round 27

also if there are to be de that target bs then the Zik bs also has to target de
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Unread 18 May 2008, 10:47   #46
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Re: Stats Round 27

Does it really? Cant zik bs either team with Terran BS or simply not hit etds?
Seeing as the lancers would be out attacking most of the time.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 11:08   #47
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Does it really? Cant zik bs either team with Terran BS or simply not hit etds?
Seeing as the lancers would be out attacking most of the time.
in the long run the zik bs fleet can rely on slolen Mantis/wyverns or else cr to target de for them, although this is ofc unreliable and would put them at a disadvantage earlier in the round this is what occurs with zik anyway so it is not necessarily a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I know noone would use the etd cr\bs(except maybe guardians for defence?) but surely it will make etd a bit more attractive to play.
yes it would certainly make etd playable in my view. Some ppl might also want a cr fleet to fake with anyway and it is quite likely that some will see the need to have a kill ship targeting fr/de to reduce the number of incomings they get of that type.

how about simply changing the phoenix to fi class so that it is not always the 1st frozen by the beetle, (tho still vunerable to phants) and it would have the harpy to flack with it.
and for etd make the kathal fireblade init 7 to make the fleet usable in attacks vs xans, or would this disadvantage xans too much? - as it stands it appears that the only potential target for etd cr is really cathaar
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Unread 18 May 2008, 11:35   #48
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Re: Stats Round 27

I think etd CR is mainly used as a teamup partner for caths.

Having phoenix as FI is a viable option yes.
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Unread 18 May 2008, 12:27   #49
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Re: Stats Round 27

How about something like this then:

Lancer as DE targetting BS\CR
Phoenix now a FI targetting FI\CO(or co\fi?)
Drakes moved to CR targetting DE\CR and renamed Syrens\Hydras.

This would in my opinion also help Ter\Etd out.
The obvious changes here then would be that the Ter FR fleet no longer targets DE class ships although how many people did actually build alot of Drakes? The Ter FR is still a viable attackfleet teamed up with etd and the cr\bs fleet is now a bit better seeing as it has more flack and Terrans can now survive building purely fi\cr\bs(as imo i think they should be able to). Xan DE now faces the problem of not targetting Drakes unless they send along bombers though.
Hopefully this will mean more CR\BS fleets in the uni seeing as last round there was TOO MUCH fr\de in my opinion.


is this a better solution?
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Unread 18 May 2008, 12:44   #50
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Re: Stats Round 27

The reason that were given last round for changing stats, mainly "it's fun to change" should still be valid for next round. Stats are changed for the sake of it. I understand that if it's not done this time it's only because nobody wants to spend the time.
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