Beta Process Reform

[Shyne]

As I understand it, we have a beta every round to test the stats which is designed to discover flaws such as this rounds stats. For any number of reasons, the flaws in the stats were not discovered and the round proceeded to be one of the poorer of the last 10 rounds for many.

I haven't participated in recent betas but I imagine the principle issue is that those who discover flaws in the stats take advantage of them, rather than reporting them. A secondary issue is the time it takes to refine statistics before the round starts, but I think it is quite easy to drop efficiency of some ships if it creates a better balance (this is not always ideal for those ships that have many roles).

[Ultimate Newbie]

I think, though i am not sure, last round's stats were changed significantly after the beta testing was complete. Though whether that was because they needed to be changed drastically as they were really unbalanced, or maybe they were just changed for comedy value at the last minute. Either way, there was clearly insufficient testing time to examine the latest iteration of stats.

[-Blue Moon-]

...and yet if the beta testers had talked with those of us who can see the problems and are willing to suggest ways to combat them (paisley, myself, jerome, etc...) then we could have balanced them a lot more effectively.

The reason why I refuse to participate in beta channel is because base stats should NEVER be rough. Base stats should do what they're meant to do, and targeting changes should be absolutely avoided during the beta testing phase.

When I did stats r18 I had Xan with FI and DE fleets, and got pressured into changing it to FI/FR, which totally ruined my matrices of 'fairness' (i.e. 1/2 free hits per roiding class, per race) and rendering the Zik FR fleet useless as the targeting needed to be changed to a pure kill FR fleet which is totally against the essence of Zik. I had to leave on holiday one week before the stats were to be released, and when I came back they had been butchered further without them even bothering to email me. It was extremely frustrating as (seemingly) my one chance to make a good set of stats had been taken away from me.

What I'm trying to say is, if there was a group of three or four people who understood why every ship does what it does (i.e. there was a reason behind pegasus shooting before pulsar, because without it Xan would have been immune to everything)... then if that group of people made the targeting work the only reason behind beta testing is to make sure that the dpc and empres and cost reflect the intensions accurately and fairly. In my mind the biggest change that beta testing should EVER have is a change to a non-roiding support ship e.g. a traditional XAN CO - Wraith (/Arrowhead) - to support the traditional FI roiding fleet -- or a change in armour/damage/empres. There should never be a need for class/target change - this should have been sorted in the alpha stages by the 4 man team.

I'd put myself forward for such a team and I guarantee that anyone at Exilition/F-Crew/Orbit/Destiny would vouch for my 'ability' to understand stats comprehensively. I know that monroe and myk have started something recently, but if anyone is interested in this approach (rather than the willynilly changes left right and centre caused by lobbyists PMing you every damn second of the day to make their prefered race the best) --- then private message me --- i would LOVE to help.

-tux

[jerome]

there is not a single list or reason in the world where paisley's name can be listed with mine. you i don't know all that well about but i can full on guarantee that paisley is one of the biggest unforgiveably idiotic people i have ever come across. perhaps only appocomaster is close to him in that respect, for entertaining him.

[-Blue Moon-]

i know paisley can be a bit arrogant sometimes, but i feel that he (sometimes) makes more positive constructive comments about stats than others like satyr, jester, stoom, or appoco (who can create/analyze, but don't suggest fixes) - but that's besides the point.

the main point of my comment here was that we need a central team to finalize everything except the efficiencies, and use the beta testing to tweak those details.

...and like i said, i'd be interested in being part of that team and i think jerome would be too. (without sounding too pig-headed) who else in the community could do the job with as much gusto?
-tux

[jerome]

no, thanks i've already been asked to make stats and i have no interest in these things anymore, sorry.

good luck with the team. as friendly advice, i personally prefer letting 1 ABLE person create his set then take on suggestions on board after rather than a 'team' do it because that screws up the 'form' of a set. speaking of which, about the team: make sure you have one person who will have the philosophical design/form sorted because that is what makes or breaks stats, contrary to popular belief it is more than 'just' numbers. people who do not have this ability to outline a form: appocomaster/phil/sovereign, based on previous experiences. this is not a criticism it's just what they are like, they are too focused on the "maths" of things, this being said it also helps of course to have these people on board to sort of the finetuning of the efficiencies and so forth. i don't know your "ability" per se personally so you may in fact be the "designer" right there

[.Disc.]

People use the Beta as a kinda speed game, and it isnt used for the purpose that the pa crew desire.

secondly there isn't enough time for PA crew to alter such things as XP dependancy/ship stats from the end of BETA to the start of the new round. Basically Beta is used to fine tune certain things, but not major coding, its mainly used to make sure things work, and there are no problems.

Even if many people would have reported that XP was too influential, PA crew wouldnt have changed it, because they are too set on helping new comers to the game rather than preserving the old game of keeping value and roids, so now we are left with people suiciding fleet for a few roids and lots of XP.

PA would gain and keep more people if they got rid of XP alltogether, because for me, the main reason as to why i would leave the game is due to XP, not the diminishing community.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by .Disc.

PA would gain and keep more people if they got rid of XP alltogether, because for me, the main reason as to why i would leave the game is due to XP, not the diminishing community.

Amen.

[robban1]

erm xp isnt the problem with pa its just the effect the stats have on thing that makes what it was r20 and im somewhat suprised that so many ppl still think removeing xp will solve everything

a little edit: btw shouldnt the r21 stats be tested and done now so the admins can sort the real issues with the game instead of using the time between rounds with that shit?

[Gio2k]

Betas will never give enough feedback to create a balanced set of stats. Forget it. You should look at other ways of creating balanced stats.
And the stats team should be able to tweak stats _during_ the round when it turns out their stats are ****ed up.

[Mzyxptlk]

Why does every discussion on here in the end come down to a suggestion to "just remove xp"?

[Bane]

Because it's the short and easy answer

XP, not money, is the route of all evil

[furball]

The fact that it's not the right answer is clearly completely irrelevant


Seriously, the current problem with XP is a symptom, not a cause, of the overall situation. A number of different changes could be made - and that's just from a quick scan of the first 40 threads on the Suggestions forum.

[Ali]

never *tweak* stats DURING a round, a player could have a fleet composition based around the stats and you ruin it, hardly even remotely fair to mess with stats DURING ticks of a real round

[Shyne]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Why does every discussion on here in the end come down to a suggestion to "just remove xp"?

Yep. The issue here is creating balanced stats through use of a beta round.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-

When I did stats r18 I had Xan with FI and DE fleets, and got pressured into changing it to FI/FR, which totally ruined my matrices of 'fairness'

And for R18 I was living under the impression that the greatest flaw of the statistics set was the zikonian fleet's ability to bounce anything on the battleship side, and rotate steals on the low end.

Betatesting is very inefficient way of figuring out how statistics are balanced. It's better just to have an efficiency bot and a good battle calculator, and a team of "experts". We'll see how the coming round turns out, eventually.

I'd put myself forward for such a team and I guarantee that anyone at Exilition/F-Crew/Orbit/Destiny would vouch for my 'ability' to understand stats comprehensively.

Well, if it's proven that you comprehensively understand ship statistics, you'd probably be the best person to do them. I don't think there are many who "comprehensively" understand the statistics system, and even harder it is to understand or simulate the way the round outcome makes of the statistics.

(rather than the willynilly changes left right and centre caused by lobbyists PMing you every damn second of the day to make their prefered race the best)

And again, isn't this roughly what happened R18 in a certain community channel?