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Unread 10 May 2016, 09:21   #101
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
My poimt being mainly, that spreading value over diffrent classes will weaken your fleet, more so if spreading it over diffrent ships that target the ssme ship/ships.

Usualy, you might want to have as much value as you can in as few classes as possibole. Flak being the key word.
Suddently this is no longer favourable? This smells like stats mafia at work...
I think you missed my point. Essentially that the best way to limit cov op stealing is to not have lots of ships in classes without pods. In your set for example you could pretty easily get rid of the phantom to reduce the possibility of cov opped co pods. Or the peacekeeper for battleships. Both have other ships that shoot the same thing. With xan you don't need to build many of these ships to make covering a nightmare. In this case you have a similar problem with your fr and de fleets; a xan does not need to build many of the type they are not using to make it difficult for dcs.

Edit; I should note that I am not saying this is a bad thing, simply that if you make the stats open to such use of cov ops there should be compensation elsewhere through making the races that have the option worse in other ways.
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Unread 10 May 2016, 16:12   #102
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I think you missed my point. Essentially that the best way to limit cov op stealing is to not have lots of ships in classes without pods. In your set for example you could pretty easily get rid of the phantom to reduce the possibility of cov opped co pods. Or the peacekeeper for battleships. Both have other ships that shoot the same thing. With xan you don't need to build many of these ships to make covering a nightmare. In this case you have a similar problem with your fr and de fleets; a xan does not need to build many of the type they are not using to make it difficult for dcs.

Edit; I should note that I am not saying this is a bad thing, simply that if you make the stats open to such use of cov ops there should be compensation elsewhere through making the races that have the option worse in other ways.
Ive not tried to limit these options, im not against sets where you can be creative and use all parts of the game to accuire a good fleet.
Wether it is by FCing for pods, cov-opping for pods, or what ever way you want to accuire ships on doesnt matter.
It does require a lot of time and work to build uncovential roiding fleets, so it comes at a cost.

Faking FI/FR/DE is possibole, but it does as i said, come at the cost.

calc splitting value into FR/DE vs value in FR or DE:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fnl89jh6t0mizmu vs Terran
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gbq9m1x8i2a37ju vs Cathaar
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2gy82qgljlf2htz vs Xan
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2d155f3xp5334xd vs Zik
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ulob53izp35shvb vs Etd

I could ask you, would you be most likely to split value into FR/DE, or go for one or the other?
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Unread 10 May 2016, 18:30   #103
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Ive not tried to limit these options, im not against sets where you can be creative and use all parts of the game to accuire a good fleet.
Wether it is by FCing for pods, cov-opping for pods, or what ever way you want to accuire ships on doesnt matter.
It does require a lot of time and work to build uncovential roiding fleets, so it comes at a cost.

Faking FI/FR/DE is possibole, but it does as i said, come at the cost.

calc splitting value into FR/DE vs value in FR or DE:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fnl89jh6t0mizmu vs Terran
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gbq9m1x8i2a37ju vs Cathaar
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2gy82qgljlf2htz vs Xan
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2d155f3xp5334xd vs Zik
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ulob53izp35shvb vs Etd

I could ask you, would you be most likely to split value into FR/DE, or go for one or the other?

I think the extra pods are most useful if it doesnt actually spread out your value too much.
FR and DE both target the same classes, so assuming you want to cover vs all classes, building more FR means building less DE.

As xan , you need fi for anti fr/de anyway, plus either FR or DE to cover vs the other classes, its helpful for xans that they have fi pods and it doesnt mean that they sacrifice strenght in their FR fleet.

Ofcourse everything else being equal, its still nice for xan to have both FR and DE pods, but as you point out it's not such a huge advantage , it means if you spread out in DE and FR ships, it's a bit more challenging for enemy DC's, since they have to cover vs both FR and DE, but they need a smaller fleet of both anti FR and anti DE to cover it, plus ofc a ton of ships shoot at both anyway.

A general statement like "xans with 3 pods are too strong" sounds good.
Especially if you imagine shipstats like R66 where both the fi and the fr fleet could easily land on most races even if the fleet was smaller in value and then in your mind add a third option you would have to cover.
But because this set has MT and the xan fleets dont win vs most races it's not as bad.

oh and any word yet if this is really the final set we will get next round?

Last edited by Shhhhhhh; 10 May 2016 at 18:51. Reason: xan fr too strong comment removed
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Unread 10 May 2016, 20:48   #104
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

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Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Patrikc sadly didn't have time to finish his set so i tried to finish it based on the instructions he gave me before he left on vacation.

You can find the set Here

Pat's requested changes:
Emp changed (EMP eff's have been increased & Recluse, Beetle, Mantis and Creditor have been given good EMP armor )
Make ETD fi stronger vs FR (Sylph has been made cheaper)
Make De a bit weaker (Bolt thrower & Bomber have been weakend)
Make Fr a bit stronger vs DE (Ghost has been weakend & Clipper has been made stronger )

Hopefully this solves all the concerns people have with pat's set since it's most likely going to be used for R67.

If there are any other concerns please post them up below.
thats the last thing jintao posted a week ago, i seriously doubt anything changed the last couple of days, unless Appocomaster sacked him.
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Unread 11 May 2016, 05:47   #105
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

Pats set has the same problem as yours. Xan can build only attack ships to cover all classes. In his set you build 6 ships and have fr targeted double for 2 full attack fleets. In yours its 7 for 3 full attack fleets with a bit more double targeting. IMHO that's an unneeded additional advantage for xan
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Unread 11 May 2016, 06:45   #106
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Pats set has the same problem as yours. Xan can build only attack ships to cover all classes. In his set you build 6 ships and have fr targeted double for 2 full attack fleets. In yours its 7 for 3 full attack fleets with a bit more double targeting. IMHO that's an unneeded additional advantage for xan
Well looking aside from R65 set and R59 set obviously.
R63/62/60/57/56/55 all had the "problem".
R65 and R61 being the same set that was looped basicly.
R64/R65/R58 were the only sets that did not have the "problem".

The stats mafia mustve been asleep during those rounds apparently, the same problem cant keep repeating itself round after round after round?
This problem is actualy so brilliant that im gonna add it to the "no-go" list, right next to "steal chain" problem.
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Last edited by BloodyButcher; 11 May 2016 at 07:50.
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Unread 11 May 2016, 08:12   #107
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

and seriously, im not trying to mock you, or flame your view on the matter.
What im aiming at is all these "problems" the "stats mafia" come up with, also i explained it in this post: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...28&postcount=2 aswell.
If we added you "problem" to this list, the only acceptable set remaining would be mz set, this is why ive always belived that he was the real leader of the mafia.

Now should we just re-run Mz set for the 5th or 6th time, and stop having the same discussion over and over again each round?
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Unread 11 May 2016, 09:16   #108
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

I think what M0RPH3US describes is a clear advantage for xans, but it doesnt mean any shipstat set that has it is automatically unusable. Question is, does it make xans so strong that they become clearly the best choice.

I agree that the xans look good for attacking, lots of faking options, but for ally defense they dont look so hot, with a bit crappy fi/co ships.
Overal I think they are fine, and Butchers set actually looks quite decent imo.
but maybe thats because of low expectations, i dunno
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Unread 11 May 2016, 11:00   #109
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

My set is pretty good. But then again, I would say that. Go forth, my minions, and spam Jintao!
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Unread 20 May 2016, 06:59   #110
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Re: R67 bb set discussion

Well the other stats suck dog dick so you can be sure they will get chosen as PA crew would rather kill the game dead. ST is dead and I wont buy credits with a repeat of last rounds stupidity.
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