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View Poll Results: Should Round 66 be Random?
Yes - Full Random Galaxies 33 75.00%
No - Stick with the Buddy Pack System 8 18.18%
We like "write-in" ballots and good ideas, so please vote here and elaborate! 3 6.82%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:34   #51
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
OK so the galaxy situation was different to how you initially made it out.... shock! Just because people didn't defend didn't mean it was bad or that it was a good roiding target. The fact that he survived till the last day without serious incs shows there was better targets out there

Ults situation is purely a combination of jealousy and nothing to lose, the fact they still compete is down to politics tho plain and simple.

As a final point stop putting bows in the same category as ult for anything it's just plain deception. Bows are also rans, like a diluted CT and your presence caused them more incommings and animosity than every other member they had combined.
No, its not diffrent than i made it out. An active gal is not a guarantee that you can finish high, and a inactive gal(def wise) is not a gurantee you will finish low.
There is always better targets out there, how teh feck do you think Norse managed to stay this high when their defence, historywise, has been no existant?
Sure there was one planet out of the 677 planets out there that round that had more incs than him this round, so surely he didnt have "serious incs" before the last day then?

Putting BowS in the same category as Ult is not something i do to talk up BowS, or talk down any other alliance, again based on history.
If there was a alliance with more defence fleet than attacking fleets last round, they would also be in this category.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:38   #52
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What you're missing in your recent posts is that PA is a group activity. In order to bring out the best in yourself, you need to be able to count on your galmates. Waking up in the middle of the night to DC incs is all fine and good, but if only a couple of people show up to send, that effort is wasted. Being careful with your fleets and never crashing them is much less rewarding if your galaxy mates crash right, left and center.


For 30+ rounds, we've been trying to prevent the concentration of skill, activity, availability, dedication, whatever you want to call it, in a handful of galaxies. We've done this because, well, well-oiled fortress galaxies are just so damn strong. The reasoning is, if only we could just make it so that people had a harder time creating virtual private galaxies, we can fix that! But that hasn't worked.

We know people fort because they need to in order to perform well (that's important to us) and because they think it's fun (that's important to them). We try to stop them because we're trying to create a more level playing field, where less well-connected players have a better chance of doing well. But maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe, instead of trying to prevent forting, we should just make galaxies weaker by making them less important. Increase ingal defense ETA by 1. That way, the ekseros and arcs in this world can play in galaxies together, and the rest of the universe doesn't have to suffer as a result.
Correct me if im wrong, but aint these "super galaxies" you are talking about, historicly, has been spreading their planets accross diffrent alliances to increase the def pool/decrease the incs?

Is there a forted gal that has been constantly been competing for #1 gal? I havnt checked yet myself, just wondering.



This "all random" debate i think is mostly, from my point of view, fueled by that every alliance out there going for forts result in very "boring politics" and a very time demanding game for all the players out there?

Or am i completely off here?
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:41   #53
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Yeah, the word 'fort' is at least confusing, and possibly just incorrect. I don't mean 6 planets from the same alliance in a galaxy. I mean 6 people who agreed pre-round to get into the same galaxy, and succeed. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It's also worth mentioning that while top galaxies like this tend to be very strong, but as a result, get way more incs. In this, they are roughly the Ultores of galaxies.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:42   #54
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Re: r66 - The Random One

You make an interesting point Mzy. But I don't see how it solves the problem of helping new players grow and remain interested in the game? Nor does it stop attacking a gal one night becoming a declaration of war. I think more than just simply increasing galaxy time travel would be needed...

Bring back GC and Minister mining bonuses! Make in-gal politics interesting again!
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:51   #55
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I don't think people who don't want to teach other players will suddenly start doing a great job when they're forced to. Anyway, if we're talking about introducing new players to the game, it's not very efficient to have to depend on luck to land in the right galaxies. It's better to do that kind of thing in alliances, which new players can join at will.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 15:55   #56
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think people who don't want to teach other players will suddenly start doing a great job when they're forced to. Anyway, if we're talking about introducing new players to the game, it's not very efficient to have to depend on luck to land in the right galaxies. It's better to do that kind of thing in alliances, which new players can join at will.
Your baiting me, but the active alliances are either full tag allready or not open for new players.
I think forcing allies/gals to teach new players is not the goal or right wording. Rewarding them is a better goal/wording them.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 16:06   #57
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What you're missing in your recent posts is that PA is a group activity. In order to bring out the best in yourself, you need to be able to count on your galmates. Waking up in the middle of the night to DC incs is all fine and good, but if only a couple of people show up to send, that effort is wasted. Being careful with your fleets and never crashing them is much less rewarding if your galaxy mates crash right, left and center.
PA remains a group activity if focused on alliances rather than galaxies. Indeed a random galaxy would be playing as a group just as much as a bp (possibly more so - no more being condescending to the randoms, giving them ultimatums etc). Simply how that group functions and needs to be managed would change. The challenge to organise an effective galaxy would be greater, but does that make it a lesser group activity?
Sure I agree that it is demoralising having gal mates crashing and not reacting but I dont think that a change to random galaxies is going to increase the total number of crashes or inactive players. Someone is going to be demoralised in such a way, better to spread it around a bit! You are effectively coming back to the argument berten is making that the elite should not have to have their aristocratic noses suffer the great unwashed!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Maybe, instead of trying to make it impossible for people to create forts, we should just make galaxy defense weaker. Increase ingal defense ETA by 1. Let the ekseros and arcs in this world play in galaxies together! If that's how they like to play the game, what do we care. Just as long as the rest of the universe doesn't have to suffer as a result (in comparison), that's fine with me.
I would be more for smaller galaxies as the answer for this rather than something that introduces a new set of problems; namely it would seem to make fi co a lot stronger compared to other fleets (always a potential problem already). We also need to remember that increasing gal def times to eta 6 would hit less active people disproportionately harder as they are the ones who are not up dcing at the initial eta 7-9 anyway. They need the galaxy safety net in a way that the elite do not.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 16:24   #58
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think people who don't want to teach other players will suddenly start doing a great job when they're forced to. Anyway, if we're talking about introducing new players to the game, it's not very efficient to have to depend on luck to land in the right galaxies. It's better to do that kind of thing in alliances, which new players can join at will.
Edit: Where new players can apply at will, a big difference .

I don't know what people will do when they are faced with a galaxy of randoms, and I guess nobody knows. In my opinion it is worth a try.

When i think back about my first rounds in a browser game like this (S T A R S P H E R E (dead but still blocked on forums i think) i learned the game from my galaxy members. They told me the basics and said I should join an alliance (and told me which allies would accept newbs).

New players wont just sign up, land in a galaxy and apply to some alliance. They need guidance and help from their galaxy. Now most are being exiled when they are not in an alliance / or have a nick people don't recognize.

edit: Typo
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 16:43   #59
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
PA remains a group activity if focused on alliances rather than galaxies. Indeed a random galaxy would be playing as a group just as much as a bp (possibly more so - no more being condescending to the randoms, giving them ultimatums etc). Simply how that group functions and needs to be managed would change. The challenge to organise an effective galaxy would be greater, but does that make it a lesser group activity?
If PA pros keep finding themselves faced with galmates who **** up at the drop of a hat, they're less likely to bother cultivating a relationship with them. When you depend on someone and are let down, that's more harmful than never depending on them in the first place. You could lose your entire fleet that way, rather than just a wave of roids.

Additionally, when there's less opportunity for long-term cooperation (ie, more than 7 weeks), there's less to be gained from educating newbies. Mind you: less, not nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Sure I agree that it is demoralising having gal mates crashing and not reacting but I dont think that a change to random galaxies is going to increase the total number of crashes or inactive players. Someone is going to be demoralised in such a way, better to spread it around a bit! You are effectively coming back to the argument berten is making that the elite should not have to have their aristocratic noses suffer the great unwashed!
The number of crashes would remain the same. but the amount of frustration would increase, because in a random universe, the amount of interaction between crashers and non-crashers increases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I would be more for smaller galaxies as the answer for this rather than something that introduces a new set of problems; namely it would seem to make fi co a lot stronger compared to other fleets (always a potential problem already). We also need to remember that increasing gal def times to eta 6 would hit less active people disproportionately harder as they are the ones who are not up dcing at the initial eta 7-9 anyway. They need the galaxy safety net in a way that the elite do not.
These are both good points, and they would have to be taken into account.

As for Fi/Co, I've long been in favour of (and sometimes argued for) inverting hulls research, so that Fi/Co only has the TT advantage, Cr/Bs gains the research advantage, and Fr/De lies in the middle. This should've been done years ago.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think forcing allies/gals to teach new players is not the goal or right wording. Rewarding them is a better goal/wording them.
I agree. But reward them how?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Joepys View Post
New players wont just sign up, land in a galaxy and apply to some alliance. They need guidance and help from their galaxy. Now most are being exiled when they are not in an alliance / or have a nick people don't recognize.
I think the game should do a better job of steering people towards joining an alliance. In addition to, not instead of.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 16:59   #60
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
If PA pros keep finding themselves faced with galmates who **** up at the drop of a hat, they're less likely to bother cultivating a relationship with them. When you depend on someone and are let down, that's more harmful than never depending on them in the first place. You could lose your entire fleet that way, rather than just a wave of roids.
It is however a bit of a vicious circle. The people who care about value and not crashing cluster together which often leaves educating new players to others who would often not be considered the top tier and who are more likely to be forgiving of crashes - or may even encourage it when there is xp involved. We often mock alliances like HR or bows for the amount they crash while at the same time shoving every new player in their direction telling them to learn over there. How can we then expect them to learn to be as active as our elite and play conserving value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Additionally, when there's less opportunity for long-term cooperation (ie, more than 7 weeks), there's less to be gained from educating newbies. Mind you: less, not nothing.
I think I might have lost your meaning here. Presumably there is still the option to invite them into your alliance for long term cooperation? Presumably the bp is likely have been full to start with so an invite into your alliance is probably more likely than an invite to remain in the bp next round anyway.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 17:06   #61
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Why are we calling them 'the elite' now? Why are mocking people who's only crime is to take more of an interest, be more actively involved and naturally component at the game then others.

Fort gals/mixed bps can be created by anyone, defence either alliance or galaxy can be organised by anyone, attacks can be planned by anyone.... none of it is remotely untoward or shifty or illegal, it's just being good and taking care of your planet.

All these semi active, pissing and whinging brigade of 'everyone's a winner' liberal lefties need get good or gtfo. End of discussion
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 17:29   #62
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Re: r66 - The Random One

I'm saying elite because I have yet to think of a better word. Since it encompasses players across a wide range of alliances I can't just say 'Ult', and words like 'overachievers' are lame... Suggestions?

Btw I include myself in this group so I'm not meaning to use it in an insulting way. Though I will admit that I used aristocracy in an insulting way - rather ironic given it is originally means rule by the best!
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 17:57   #63
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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I'm saying elite because I have yet to think of a better word. Since it encompasses players across a wide range of alliances I can't just say 'Ult', and words like 'overachievers' are lame... Suggestions?

Btw I include myself in this group so I'm not meaning to use it in an insulting way. Though I will admit that I used aristocracy in an insulting way - rather ironic given it is originally means rule by the best!
Call them players because that is what they are. They aren't some secret cabal that work behind the scenes to puppet string ppl into doing what they want. They are just me and you but with more commitmemt.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 18:37   #64
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I'm saying elite because I have yet to think of a better word. Since it encompasses players across a wide range of alliances I can't just say 'Ult', and words like 'overachievers' are lame... Suggestions?

Btw I include myself in this group so I'm not meaning to use it in an insulting way. Though I will admit that I used aristocracy in an insulting way - rather ironic given it is originally means rule by the best!
I thought it was allready decided that we are calling them "Fulltime PA players" or "Planets with VNC"
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 18:40   #65
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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I agree. But reward them how?
Being ingal with someone who knows what PA is should be a reward in itself.
I think Forest did an experiment with "faking to be a newbie" a few years back.
I also answered ironic to a "welcome mail" in a gal i randomed into, something along the lines of "Im very active, i send out fleets daily, and im aiming for the top", and was told to exile out because i wasnt good enough before they knew it was me.

If you dont teach new gal mates you will for sure be stuck with someone who dont know what to do, or is less likely to become active in the gal community or game.

Alliances should be rewarded with score/roids/extra fleets from taking in new players, like they are allready, though the tag limits are too low for this to be working.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 19:17   #66
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
I think I might have lost your meaning here. Presumably there is still the option to invite them into your alliance for long term cooperation? Presumably the bp is likely have been full to start with so an invite into your alliance is probably more likely than an invite to remain in the bp next round anyway.
Quite frankly, reading back on it, I'm not really sure what I meant to say there myself.



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End of discussion
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 19:20   #67
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Call them players because that is what they are. They aren't some secret cabal that work behind the scenes to puppet string ppl into doing what they want. They are just me and you but with more commitmemt.
Players does not exactly distinguish them from the other groups we are talking about. The point of labels is to be clear not to muddy the waters about who you are talking about.
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 19:49   #68
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Players does not exactly distinguish them from the other groups we are talking about. The point of labels is to be clear not to muddy the waters about who you are talking about.
These people aren't any different rho, they are me and you , friends and enemies. They just play better
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Unread 25 Feb 2016, 21:04   #69
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Re: r66 - The Random One

You completely ignore the point of using different words for different things. It is so that I dont need to qualify everything with the 'players who play better' or the 'players who have just newly joined and dont know what they are doing', and just the 'normal average player'. So they become something like the 'elite' the 'newbies' and 'players' (or possibly 'average joe' ) Surely even you do this!

i.e. it is not about how different or similar they are as people but finding a way to categorise those different players and distinguish them when talking about the different types at once.

edit: p.s. this has to be the most silly and off topic argument I have ever seen on these forums!
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 04:56   #70
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why are we calling them 'the elite' now? Why are mocking people who's only crime is to take more of an interest, be more actively involved and naturally component at the game then others.

Fort gals/mixed bps can be created by anyone, defence either alliance or galaxy can be organised by anyone, attacks can be planned by anyone.... none of it is remotely untoward or shifty or illegal, it's just being good and taking care of your planet.

All these semi active, pissing and whinging brigade of 'everyone's a winner' liberal lefties need get good or gtfo. End of discussion

Just because the playing field is level doesn't mean the game will actually be fun, and insulting anyone that does not share your opinion (on something which you seem to be missing the point of) does not make it any more valid.
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 12:47   #71
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Just a quick note - I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I've been getting some PMs asking why Round 66 will be random.

This is obviously just a user poll and whilst the input of active forum users is appreciated, this does not mean that any decision has been made for Round 66.
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 12:59   #72
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Going random is more common anyway than not going random hence the vote being staggered in one direction imho.
Are the people that want BP's (ie. wouldn't play if they couldn't go in a bp; and yes there are some that have said that) being made aware of this post before the decision is made, if at all?

Just wondering/saying....
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 13:58   #73
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Re: r66 - The Random One

goind random makes no difference, people will just exile untill they are forted. the issue has been the bps are too big and there are too few players, make the bp 3
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 14:18   #74
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by macen View Post
Are the people that want BP's being made aware of this post before the decision is made, if at all?
No. The random cabal is refusing to post it on a public forum where everyone can read it and vote on it.
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 14:25   #75
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
goind random makes no difference, people will just exile untill they are forted. the issue has been the bps are too big and there are too few players, make the bp 3
That was the inital suggestion
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 15:06   #76
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Just a quick note - I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I've been getting some PMs asking why Round 66 will be random.

This is obviously just a user poll and whilst the input of active forum users is appreciated, this does not mean that any decision has been made for Round 66.
Why not listen to the people for a change
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 15:10   #77
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Re: r66 - The Random One

people tend to be stupid
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 15:47   #78
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Just a quick note - I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I've been getting some PMs asking why Round 66 will be random.

This is obviously just a user poll and whilst the input of active forum users is appreciated, this does not mean that any decision has been made for Round 66.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
*This is by no means official, but hey let's get the ball rolling.

**I'm an idiot, by the way.
This is why I covered my ass in the OP
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 16:04   #79
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by macen View Post
Going random is more common anyway than not going random hence the vote being staggered in one direction imho.
Are you just pulling that out of your arse? I don't have the exact numbers but my memory, supported by Kia, suggests the average galaxy size was around 7 planets after the shuffle, implying more people BP than go random. Not quite the 74-20% split we see now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macen
Are the people that want BP's (ie. wouldn't play if they couldn't go in a bp; and yes there are some that have said that) being made aware of this post before the decision is made, if at all?

Just wondering/saying....
Why would random players be any more likely to post/vote?


Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
goind random makes no difference, people will just exile untill they are forted. the issue has been the bps are too big and there are too few players, make the bp 3
Yes, please!
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 18:29   #80
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
goind random makes no difference, people will just exile untill they are forted. the issue has been the bps are too big and there are too few players, make the bp 3
The poll might have been rather more even if there had been a 'changes to bp/smaller bp' option. There is a good chance that there are people like me who are agnostic about random but want a change are voting for random when we would be happy with other options too.
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 19:09   #81
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Yes. I voted random but would happily try a smaller bp round e.g. max 3 but preferably 2.
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Unread 26 Feb 2016, 20:40   #82
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Are you just pulling that out of your arse? I don't have the exact numbers but my memory, supported by Kia, suggests the average galaxy size was around 7 planets after the shuffle, implying more people BP than go random. Not quite the 74-20% split we see now.
Easy now. There is no guarantee every galaxy has a BP.
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Unread 27 Feb 2016, 16:44   #83
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Re: r66 - The Random One

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Easy now. There is no guarantee every galaxy has a BP.
I'm quite sure that is how galaxies are created and sorted, though. There will have been a few 3 man BPs but those are in the minority.
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Unread 27 Feb 2016, 18:27   #84
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Re: r66 - The Random One

Well, let me put it like this: I have on several occasions been in galaxies in which no one admitted to being part of the BP.

Additionally, I vaguely recall seeing an official-sounding post that described a parameter for the shuffle for number of galaxies desired. Unfortunately, I can no longer find it.
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