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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 21:04   #1
jerome
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Ship stats!

i am far too lazy to explain anything about this but all you guys need to know is that apart from me needing to find someone who'll update their bcalc with these stats and let me play around for a half hour to confirm all the cost efficiencies, this should be used for the following round!

also yes i have dropped cathaar and yes, this is probably the exact sort of stats this game needs.

edit:1/ efficiencies mostly/hopefully all sorted:
2/ignore race names in there, it is meant to be terran, xandathrii, zikonian in order and also some links do not work as this is just a quick set of matrices sandman was kind enough to provide for me to finalise these stats.


http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/PAStats.html

Last edited by jerome; 31 Oct 2006 at 21:09.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 21:11   #2
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Re: Ship stats!

er ignore the pirate from the ziks btw, too lazy to edit then bug rikard to re-host it :/
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 21:47   #3
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Re: Ship stats!

Haven't you got more entertaining things to do nowadays mate?

And why not just remove zik as well or make one only one race while you're at it. The stats/race system has needed a huge facelift for a long time already in my opinion.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 21:59   #4
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Re: Ship stats!

it was done in my first day of sixth form as i was already that bored :/
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:15   #5
are
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Thumbs down Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
also yes i have dropped cathaar and yes, this is probably the exact sort of stats this game needs.
Pfft, drop Ziks, not Cathaar, I have no idea what to play if no Cathaar is possible.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:18   #6
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Re: Ship stats!

also the scarab is meant to be EMP, i just noticed (shiptype wise ofc)

are: flip a coin!

edit: apparently some admin named "cin" just kicked me from the beta chan for telling him that planetarion was a terrible boring game with it's repetitive and tedious stats and that my stats were brilliant so we may not have a fun and interesting round after all! hurray for the pa team!

(also i may have called him an idiot)

Last edited by jerome; 11 Sep 2006 at 22:34.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:23   #7
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Re: Ship stats!

edit: http://nera.atspace.com/jer/PAStatsu.xhtml

updated stats
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:35   #8
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Re: Ship stats!

i'd also like to thank the pa team in their great efforts to aid and encourage community help by being pretty hilariously incompetant at understanding the game they run.
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:36   #9
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Re: Ship stats!

Please forgive my lack of computer literacy, but which program should I open ^^ with?
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 22:41   #10
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Re: Ship stats!

hmm it works with firefox at least
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 23:08   #11
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Re: Ship stats!

interestin stats jer
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 23:13   #12
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Re: Ship stats!

I still have a warm and fuzzy place in my heart for Cath ever since R6 when i first played them. As such, i would rather see "races" included, rather than removed, from the game as it detracts from some of the diversity and potential gameplay that people enjoy. True, Cath suffers muchly from the "power curve" whereby you need to have amassed sufficient fleetscore in order to stun sufficient enemy fleet to make the roids you cap cheap enough to be viable, and as such it favours the larger Caths over the smaller ones. Still, i'm not sure if that's much of a problem per se, however, as it then becomes a race for the most agressive of players and acts as a significant counter for Xans who would otherwise be tough to crack with great initiative and high damage.

Still, i shouldnt dismiss work out of hand, i just dont have the time to sift though it atm .

What are the highlights?
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 23:24   #13
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Re: Ship stats!

the highlight is that it's the least limiting set of stats ever seen in this game and still manages to keep balance as a/ alliance def is still important and b/ attacking still won't be too difficult due to the possibility of so many fleet options alongside various other obvious reaosns etc etc
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Unread 11 Sep 2006, 23:45   #14
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Re: Ship stats!

had a closer look at those stats , the zik dont seem to have any emp ships was that intentional, if ur gona integrate cat into the other 3 races you would have to give the zik an emp ship or 2
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 02:00   #15
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Re: Ship stats!

i think there pretty awesome, also giving emp to majority stealer race is bad and a wise move.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 09:40   #16
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Re: Ship stats!

it was intentional, zik can steal all 4 types of pod class other than their own, whereas xand and terr can only steal 2 but have some emp ships too, to make it up. man i'm great.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 11:29   #17
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Re: Ship stats!

Stats in thread used with these :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikard
Race indicators for rest of thread :


Race 1 = r1 = Terr
Race 2 = r2 = Xan
Race 3 = r3 = Zik


Right lets look at the stealers first of all as thats where the stats mainly start from

---

Stealers

Gryphon [CO->CR] only taras(r2) can be used in defence in the targetd class
Chimera [FR->FI] only spiders(r2) can be used in defence in the targeted class, spiders == EMP so its a 0 loss attack

Black Widow [DE->BS] dragons(r1) [EMP so == 0 loss attack] and spectres(r2) can be used as defence

Corsair [FI->FI] 0 loss attack
Thief [CO->CO] 0 loss attack
Buccaneer [FR->BS] only wyverns(r1) in target class able to shoot back, wyvern == EMP so 0 loss
Marauder [DE->CR] only rouges(r3) can be used in target class

---

EMP's

Harpy [FI->CO] only sentinals in target range (r2)
Wyvern [BS->FR] only buccaners in target range (r3)
Dragon [BS->DE] only clippers in target range (r3)

Spider [FI->FR] only chimera in target range (r1)
Pulsar [FI->DE] 0 loss attack
Scarab [FR->CR] broadsword (r2) and cutter (r3) can defend in target range

---

Observerations

Race 1 BS is totally unstoppable and is unapposable; with 2 of the 3 BS being EMP'ers, they are able to freeze all the ships which target BS before they get a chance to fire. If they start stealing locusts, bye bye universe.

Race 2 FI attack vs Race 1 is a clear winner for Race 2 as Chimeras are frozen by Spiders before they can shoot and vs Race 3 if you send along some sentinels then you'll be able to dispatch the awaiting Corsairs [with Vsh taking out the Thiefs which are CO->CO].

Race 2 ship stats [low res cost w/ decent armour / damage] makes them an easy favourite with Scarab / Black Widow combo vs Race 3 and FI vs Race 1. Both are pretty easy wins.

Race 3 are the pretty much worst race with the weakest stats, but have extra stealers; there armour and damage are also weak and would need strengthening [esp: re kill ships]

Also you have to look at what the races actually are; r1 are supposed to be heavily armoured with medium weapons, yet r3 do more damage. r2 are supposed to be cheap, lightly armoured ships, lighty gunned ships which are effective en-masse which there not and r3 ships are supposed to be medium ships yet they have the weakest armour out of the lot of them.

Conclusion : Dont be a fool, stay in school
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 11:52   #18
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
i think there pretty awesome, also giving emp to majority stealer race is bad and a wise move.
it can be offset by making it a defense ship
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 16:09   #19
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Re: Ship stats!

jer's stats rule.
Smudge is a fool.

(also adding the rule: whatever rhymes must be true and yes it rhymes, eod.)
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 16:13   #20
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge

Observerations

Race 1 BS is totally unstoppable and is unapposable; with 2 of the 3 BS being EMP'ers, they are able to freeze all the ships which target BS before they get a chance to fire. If they start stealing locusts, bye bye universe.

Race 2 FI attack vs Race 1 is a clear winner for Race 2 as Chimeras are frozen by Spiders before they can shoot and vs Race 3 if you send along some sentinels then you'll be able to dispatch the awaiting Corsairs [with Vsh taking out the Thiefs which are CO->CO].

Race 2 ship stats [low res cost w/ decent armour / damage] makes them an easy favourite with Scarab / Black Widow combo vs Race 3 and FI vs Race 1. Both are pretty easy wins.

Race 3 are the pretty much worst race with the weakest stats, but have extra stealers; there armour and damage are also weak and would need strengthening [esp: re kill ships]

Also you have to look at what the races actually are; r1 are supposed to be heavily armoured with medium weapons, yet r3 do more damage. r2 are supposed to be cheap, lightly armoured ships, lighty gunned ships which are effective en-masse which there not and r3 ships are supposed to be medium ships yet they have the weakest armour out of the lot of them.

Conclusion : Dont be a fool, stay in school
1/ r1 bs is fine, if you may have noticed their d/c's aren't that impressive for an emp ship and their targetted ships have reasonable a/c's
2/ i'm not sure what flaw you're trying to point out with r2 as they are all intentionally made and are also damn fine
3/ also intentional as zikonians NEED to be a bit disadvantaged but i'm not sure if i've overdid it yet, i'll check into it later
4/ r1 is meant to be a flakthrough race, which it is. r2 is meant to be a low init race, which it is. r3 is meant to be a race that gets by on stealing. which it is. everything else has been misconstrued as these stats are completely mine, all three races have now evolved (bar zikonian who let's presume got 'owned' a bit by xand/terr for being so great so are still behind in their ship technology, and cathaar got wiped out by the other three for obvious reasons) from their previous basic form from rounds beyond

5/ do you have any actual flaws to point out or were you just trying to fit in that hilarious pun into this thread

seriously guys i know you guys are probably trying to seem solid and unified defending cin's utter idiocy but let's at least just admit that instead of this.

also is there anyone willing to lend me a bcalc for me to play with these stats to confirm the cost efficiencies?
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 16:27   #21
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Re: Ship stats!

I think what we have to look at here is the general thrust more than any specifics. We have the four race set up for donkey's years and it's ****ing boring these days. It needs to allow for a bit of creativity and yes the possibility of a lack of balance. "Balanced stats" are just a subset of "fun stats". Someone in pateam needs to look at these stats and either implement something similar or PUT SOMEONE IN CHARGE OF STAT DEVELOPMENT. And I don't mean hand that job off to someone in pateam with too many duties or too few braincells, I mean pick someone who knows what they're doing in games like this and give them a free reign.

As a final question did anyone who opened this thread and read jer's stats give them a greater than 1% of not being instantly dismissed without any real consideration? No? Didn't think so.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 18:17   #22
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Re: Ship stats!

original post updated with this link: http://www.sandmans.co.uk/jer/stats.htm which is a near enough final set of these stats with some sorted cost efficiencies. now all we need is the pa team to use them!

ignore race names in there, it is meant to be terran, xandathrii, zikonian in order and also some links do not work as this is just a quick set of matrices sandman was kind enough to provide for me to finalise these stats.

(ship matrices: http://www.sandmans.co.uk/jer/)

thanks to sandman and gate for some help in getting these last handful of slight editions!

edit: seems the race names in the first link has been sorted!
edit2: sandmans seems down so, http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/PAStats.html

Last edited by jerome; 12 Sep 2006 at 19:36.
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Unread 12 Sep 2006, 22:14   #23
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
also the scarab is meant to be EMP, i just noticed (shiptype wise ofc)

are: flip a coin!

edit: apparently some admin named "cin" just kicked me from the beta chan for telling him that planetarion was a terrible boring game with it's repetitive and tedious stats and that my stats were brilliant so we may not have a fun and interesting round after all! hurray for the pa team!

(also i may have called him an idiot)
well cin and marv are the deadweight of pa doing nothing for the game or the community :/ what can you expect from him?

nice initative jerome, i like mixed stats go go go
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 02:26   #24
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Re: Ship stats!

Don't like when Zik normal ships (which shouldn't be their best fleet) have as fast init as Xan (who are supposed to be the specialists).
BTW regarding the races, I think Terran should be replaced by Cath.
Is it completely impossible to have a different init for each ship ?
Could we have at least a basic rule (would it work) stating that for init:
Fi < Co < Fr < De < Cr < Bs
+
Emp < Kill < Steal < Pod < Sk
+
Xan kill ship < other races KILL ships (same class)
Cath EMP ship < other races EMP ships (same class)
Zik Steal < other races STEAL ships (same class)
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Last edited by Makhil; 13 Sep 2006 at 02:35.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 09:09   #25
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Don't like when Zik normal ships (which shouldn't be their best fleet) have as fast init as Xan (who are supposed to be the specialists).
BTW regarding the races, I think Terran should be replaced by Cath.
Is it completely impossible to have a different init for each ship ?
Could we have at least a basic rule (would it work) stating that for init:
Fi < Co < Fr < De < Cr < Bs
+
Emp < Kill < Steal < Pod < Sk
+
Xan kill ship < other races KILL ships (same class)
Cath EMP ship < other races EMP ships (same class)
Zik Steal < other races STEAL ships (same class)
you've got ">" going the wrong way, and init differentiations for every ship would be atrocious for one ship targetting, as for the zik/bla/bla > other of same type ship, i'd rather it to depend on what would make it more balanced.

i've been thinking about making the corsair in my stats init 3 and a subversion ship, what do people think about that? it wouldn't be that real good at all i suppose but it'd be damn cool to have subversion involved in some form though! maybe cors and thief switch targetting and make them both init 3 subverter or something
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 09:25   #26
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
you've got ">" going the wrong way, and init differentiations for every ship would be atrocious for one ship targetting, as for the zik/bla/bla > other of same type ship, i'd rather it to depend on what would make it more balanced.

i've been thinking about making the corsair in my stats init 3 and a subversion ship, what do people think about that? it wouldn't be that real good at all i suppose but it'd be damn cool to have subversion involved in some form though! maybe cors and thief switch targetting and make them both init 3 subverter or something
Somehow make ziks a mix of subvert and steal rather than kill and steal, just as one idea?

Would make them completely different, but subvert has its own ****ups.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 10:21   #27
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Re: Ship stats!

we'll delay that for later as i'm too lazy to sort that

jesterina pointed out i forgot to make all steal ship's inits after pods so that's going to be changed alongside some other edits
changelog:
gryph, chimera, black widow, tarantula, corsair, thief, buccaneer and marauder inits to 30 from 10
phoenix arm -> 28
gryph arm -> 39
cerb arm -> 25
sentinel arm -> 20, dmg -> 22
dagger arm -> 11, dmg -> 10

http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/PAStats.html updated

unsure whether to improve corsair armour to 8 or not :/

Last edited by jerome; 13 Sep 2006 at 10:47.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 10:35   #28
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Re: Ship stats!

Given with the occasional edit that has already been mentioned, these stats seem damn fun to me.

Anyone dismissing them out of thin air needs to get a grip and stop defending the current boys to the grave, as the stats simply SUCKED.

Nice one jer
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 18:51   #29
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Re: Ship stats!

Xan FI are far too powerful and nothing at all targets them, also anyone who goes Zik is dumb.
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Unread 13 Sep 2006, 18:55   #30
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Re: Ship stats!

i am going to probably play as zik, xand fi is pretty good indeed!
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Unread 14 Sep 2006, 00:14   #31
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Re: Ship stats!

i like the stats and while xan fi is powerful, xan themselves will be their best enemy with the sentinel (which seems to me an utterly devastating defense ship). Sending along a second class opens up a lot of defense possibilitys with tarantula and pegasus ingal and spiders from alliance, so i think they still only got one sure to hit target in terran. id still love to play em tho
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Unread 14 Sep 2006, 16:09   #32
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Re: Ship stats!

Those do look pretty cool. Wouldn't mind giving em a try in a speedgame at the very least.

Looks as if terr co are gonna be wiped off the face of the planet though :s

All in all though, definitely quite the switch. Nicely done jer
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Unread 14 Sep 2006, 16:19   #33
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Re: Ship stats!

speedgames are boring just offense only fleets, blah blah :|
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Unread 14 Sep 2006, 20:33   #34
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Re: Ship stats!

Yes... but for those who don't get to play them often {weekend shift work ftl } , it's really not that bad
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Unread 15 Sep 2006, 06:14   #35
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Re: Ship stats!

These stats would be great fun me think.. Nice done Jer.

Tho two sugestions.
*BW a/c up by one so it atleast the same as d/c on the Dragon.
*Either Cors or Chims change from steal to EMP.

Just had a quick look on them now after work.. Kinda tired.. So there might be other things...
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 14:57   #36
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Re: Ship stats!

On targetting,

Ter BS (which looks a lot like the cath Cr from past rounds) only has one ship that can effectively defend it (Syren), that is w/o the DC having to send 89534854 fleets. This ship is the same eta as the BS attack fleet.

Imo thats not really balanced with the defence options on other fleet types, tho ziks Fr only has one valid alliance defence ship aswell (which is emp) but atleast that ships is 1 tick faster then the attack fleet. And zik Fr armor is less wtfpwn.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 15:30   #37
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Re: Ship stats!

bronto/mix it's all designed with everything you've both said in mind
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 20:54   #38
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Re: Ship stats!

I'm all for doing something drastic with the current stats.
It's been boring for way too long imo, and a set of completely new stats like these can only be good.

Lets make jer a pa celeb!
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 22:52   #39
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Re: Ship stats!

seriously how on earth can that anti all ship be a better solution then anything jer proposes...
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 23:23   #40
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Re: Ship stats!

that will never get trough stoom only if they wanne kill pa but hey maybe thats what they are trying to do but i agree with jerome stats should be abit more new with a little bit of tweaking here and there jer his stats could work
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 11:53   #41
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Re: Ship stats!

what do you mean mens?!? I AM ALREADY A PA CELEB I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW!
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 14:57   #42
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Re: Ship stats!

http://game.planetarion.com/stats.pl?rn=18744721
going by that as I dont have excel or i cant seem to access the other iurls.I see a mix between r14 and r15 stats with the introduction of the attack all ship (mixed views on that one

terrans
GryphonFrigateDestroyerNorm848353,2002,4002,4006043TerranChimeraDestroyerFrigateNorm780575,6004,2004 ,2005740Terran
= disaster

+ side 4 de roiding fleet for terran and the good old bs/cr combo

caths

cant roid terrans on pure co fleets and cr would be difficult with 2 attack ships +pods

ScorpionBattleshipCorvetteNorm1095655,4007,2005,4005236Cathaar

I would make that cr class as damage flak v terran de/bs also zik de
as the scorpion would still be 0 loss anti co ship

xan

the cloak should make this race more interesting
should make faking frigs really interesting

if the tzen is going to fire before the vsh it is a good idea to have 3 types of fi ships

vipers would be in demand but I would probily get another co class anti frig that kills otherwise we will have a r15 all over again with the mysterious viper def again.

zik seems ok so far might be a bit underpowered.

i guess testing will show this
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 14:59   #43
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Re: Ship stats!

why the hell did you post about those shitty stats on this thread
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 18:41   #44
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Re: Ship stats!

to show how much better yours are ofc jer. Whyever else would he do this.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 20:14   #45
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
why the hell did you post about those shitty stats on this thread
http://game.planetarion.com/stats.pl?rn=18744721
going by that as I dont have excel or i cant seem to access the other iurls.I see a mix between r14 and r15 stats with the introduction of the attack all ship (mixed views on that one


for the bit you missed

I would be interested in seeing your stats tho
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 21:26   #46
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome

also yes i have dropped cathaar and yes, this is probably the exact sort of stats this game needs.
the game needs more races not less if you ask me
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 22:12   #47
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Re: Ship stats!

the game needs more strategy, not more or less one dimensional races
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 22:41   #48
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
the game needs more strategy, not more or less one dimensional races
I couldn't agree more. The real problem is not the stats but the limited framework the stats have to work within, ie the combat engine needs an overhaul to make the game more interesting.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 14:18   #49
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
the game needs more strategy, not more or less one dimensional races

I quite liked the idea of all the races having 1 class of stealers in r14 unfortunately a few folk decided to start the stealing should be left the ziks thread or something along those lines. talk about a step back.

Take the world cup stats for example sure it was fun for a bit or so, the novelity of 2 races did start to lose its shine real quickly.
If those stats had been 8 weeks long I am confident alot of people would have been screaming about boredom.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 14:28   #50
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Re: Ship stats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
the game needs more races not less if you ask me
I would agree with you on that one if races would have clear differences between each other when it comes to achieving victory. However, since the game only allows one way of succeeding, there is hardly any justification for multiple races since they all have to be played similarly to achieve the only goal available.
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