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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:32   #51
Tietäjä
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I am? How do you know that?

Assuming I am right, it does really make the two EMP corvettes a little loose-analed. With cheap fighters being available for three of five races, it shouldn't be too hard to cover those corvettes. Then if the viper gets tweaked down, you have cutters and nightmares, which you have anyways, and and and. Just don't go cath mkay. Or if you go cath, go cruiser, mkay. Just don't build tarants, because scorp is probably your best ship, mkay.

Mkay mkay.

Maybe time to tweak terran ship costs and EMP resistances on the low end?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:35   #52
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Thrud's backs you up.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:48   #53
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Hmmm to be honest Keizari I wasn't even aware it worked in that way.

Ill check with Appoco to see if this can/is fixed, and if not we'll address the cost of the phoenix. As mz said I also assumed that the 'unused' freezers would then simply be used to freeze the others.

Ill get back to you soon I guess.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:00   #54
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I'm not sure if we should even treat it like a bug, seeing as the basic fundamentals of these stats are still firmly rooted in the days that this was the way it's supposed to be. In that light, we should probably wait until a whole new set of stats can be made, one which is based on reallocating spare guns.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:13   #55
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

This isn't quite as horrible due to the fact zik don't come with a natural fi pod so it'll be a lot more unlikely anyone can take advantage of this while attacking.

The investor is different as well, it's not an attack ship primarily and it only realistically targets your own fleet.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:13   #56
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

as ive been playing Xan this round I'm talking from that point of view

* why the hell is the shadows init so high? same with the spectre, its ludicrous or dont you really want people to build those classes of ships?
* banshee init from 5 to 4
* you've removed one ship from every race - why?
* all the ship names are the same, give us (the people not interested in dstats that much) some entertainment
* all xan ships target the same as this round, why?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:18   #57
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm not sure if we should even treat it like a bug, seeing as the basic fundamentals of these stats are still firmly rooted in the days that this was the way it's supposed to be. In that light, we should probably wait until a whole new set of stats can be made, one which is based on reallocating spare guns.
Well actually thinking about it, its all about emp efficiency in comparison to other ships. For example if the phoenix's were made to cost less this would actually still occur due to the ~40% difference in emp eff the beetle has between the phoenix and the phantom.

The only way to actually make the problem less of an impact would be to reduce the E-res of the phoenix, which was talking about anyway.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:25   #58
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
as ive been playing Xan this round I'm talking from that point of view

* why the hell is the shadows init so high? same with the spectre, its ludicrous or dont you really want people to build those classes of ships?
So basically you are dissappointed that Xan dont fire before every other race?

Quote:
* banshee init from 5 to 4
It's been covered earlier in the thread, or maybe talk to any Terran?

Quote:
* you've removed one ship from every race - why?
Useless ships are never a good thing

[/quote]
* all the ship names are the same, give us (the people not interested in dstats that much) some entertainment
* all xan ships target the same as this round, why?[/quote]

If the biggest issue you have regarding the stats is this, they must be pretty well balanced...
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:28   #59
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Hmmm to be honest Keizari I wasn't even aware it worked in that way.

Ill check with Appoco to see if this can/is fixed, and if not we'll address the cost of the phoenix. As mz said I also assumed that the 'unused' freezers would then simply be used to freeze the others.

Ill get back to you soon I guess.
It's not a trivial fix, and it's something that really shouldn't be fixed. If you're worried about it, adjust Phoenix/Phantom emp res/armor so that they don't flak eachother ridiculously.

The reason it shouldn't be fixed is that it provides tactical options. I've always found it slightly ironic that the low armor, cheap Xan are the ones that do the flakking and that Terran's high armor, expensive ships are OMGSUPERFLAKKED by the aforementioned.

I've considered whether it wouldn't be an idea to swap this around so that high armor efficiency goes hand in hand with low cost/small ships. This would be more fair and create less unbalanced situations, but fair and balanced is just another word for boring in my book, so I've never pursued it.

Edit:
The statement "useless ships are never a good thing" is another one that I disagree strongly with, but in this case, I just simply can't see that removing ships is wrong. Normally, my argument is that useless ships are what separate the good from the bad. A good player sees what is useless and avoids building them, a bad player doesn't and ends up with a shit fleet. But due to the mutual exclusivity of the races, the amount of ships one needs to learn becomes stupidly big, and this overrules the former concern. It really is useless to have 50 ships when any player can only build 10. Much better, in my opinion, to have 20 ships that everyone can select from. It creates much more depth.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:33   #60
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
why the hell is the shadows init so high?
What difference does it make?

I'm sure you had problems last round but so did pretty much everyone. You don't get to be invulnerable.


Edit: please can we make the broker and spider freeze cumulatively instead of the ridiculous current situation?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:36   #61
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Im tempted to play and to play Terran
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:40   #62
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

wtf have you done with the whole banshee vs peg inits.

you are absolutely nuts. To offset this please make the spectre the same init as wyverns.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:41   #63
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
So basically you are dissappointed that Xan dont fire before every other race?
The whole thing with the xan being cloaked is that they have the element of surprise and fire after caths
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:45   #64
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
wtf have you done with the whole banshee vs peg inits.

you are absolutely nuts. To offset this please make the spectre the same init as wyverns.
No!
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:46   #65
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
The whole thing with the xan being cloaked is that they have the element of surprise and fire after caths
The whole point of ship stats it that they are balanced and workable
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:48   #66
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Edit: please can we make the broker and spider freeze cumulatively instead of the ridiculous current situation?
Shouldn't be borked, as they fire at different initiatives
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:50   #67
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

"Shouldn't" is right.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 11:58   #68
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
The whole point of ship stats it that they are balanced and workable
and these arent balanced as you've screwed over xan's against ter's
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 12:01   #69
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Hmmm looks like the phantom are useless. If xans can realistily only safely hit ETD and CATH just mass producing banshee will do us fine.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 12:11   #70
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
and these arent balanced as you've screwed over xan's against ter's
This is a horribly conservative reaction. The race dynamic itself changed. Xan fr can now hit etd and fi can't hit terran. Oh the horror!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
Hmmm looks like the phantom are useless. If xans can realistily only safely hit ETD and CATH just mass producing banshee will do us fine.
Wraiths? Deterring emp def?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 12:24   #71
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is a horribly conservative reaction. The race dynamic itself changed. Xan fr can now hit etd and fi can't hit terran. Oh the horror!
i thought the idea for the xan was small fast ships, why would they want a mass FR fleet?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 12:31   #72
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Why would they hold on to some old and ineffective strategy, when there's a better one available?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 12:37   #73
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
i thought the idea for the xan was small fast ships, why would they want a mass FR fleet?
They still have small fast ships. And please at least attempt to conceptualise what these stats are aimed at. If you changed the banshee and spectre to firing before their terran opponents what in the name of god can roid xan? Just emp class ships which means that they'll accumulate massive amounts of value at virtually no risk and wildly imbalance the game.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 13:29   #74
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
They still have small fast ships. And please at least attempt to conceptualise what these stats are aimed at. If you changed the banshee and spectre to firing before their terran opponents what in the name of god can roid xan? Just emp class ships which means that they'll accumulate massive amounts of value at virtually no risk and wildly imbalance the game.
Ignore him JBG, Smudge has already given his useful feedback via rep, "crap stats - Smudge".

He has also demonstrated numerous times in this thread why his opinion on stats is one which should be ignored.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 13:31   #75
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
"Shouldn't" is right.
Isn't this sort of shit why they're betatesting it?

And no, I didn't mean to "remove" the "feature" that works out the EMP shot distribution. If you play a little with numbers, though, you'll see that the gap between phoenix and other ships is quite a massive one. The thing is, while zikonians have no inbound fighter fleets, and would have to gain both phoenixes and fighter pods to reap rewards of this, you've got a lot of relatively cheap flak around. Cathaars have spider. Xandathrii have their own fighters. Zikonian have the cutlass (but granted, frigate zikonians will probably prefer cutter - I'd go for stealing corvettes for the sake of the extremely good corsair). What I'm trying to say is that you have two attack fleets that can be swamped by the sole aspect of a swarm of tiny ships spiced with a few phoenixes. You're easily forced into inevitable losses you can't do anything about. To add to that, there's the "regular" difficulties. I just think the gap at the moment is too big.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 13:37   #76
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

On a sidenote, regarding Munkee's comment about the uselessness of phantoms.

Would it be too harsh if you pushed the anti-frigate chain initiative by one?

Ie. Bomber i3=>i4, Nightmare i4=>i5, Vendor & Merchant i5=>i6, Cutter & Thief i6=>i7, Shadow & Harpy i7=>i8?

What this would achieve, is that you'd have phantoms fire before bombers, theoretically allowing you to pull a stunt by adding phantoms to a frigate fleet to mash bombers before they gasp. I mean, it's just a niché, but I remember Alki doing something like that in round 13, and it was so


COOL.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 13:43   #77
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
And no, I didn't mean to "remove" the "feature" that works out the EMP shot distribution. If you play a little with numbers, though, you'll see that the gap between phoenix and other ships is quite a massive one. The thing is, while zikonians have no inbound fighter fleets, and would have to gain both phoenixes and fighter pods to reap rewards of this, you've got a lot of relatively cheap flak around. Cathaars have spider. Xandathrii have their own fighters. Zikonian have the cutlass (but granted, frigate zikonians will probably prefer cutter - I'd go for stealing corvettes for the sake of the extremely good corsair). What I'm trying to say is that you have two attack fleets that can be swamped by the sole aspect of a swarm of tiny ships spiced with a few phoenixes. You're easily forced into inevitable losses you can't do anything about. To add to that, there's the "regular" difficulties. I just think the gap at the moment is too big.
Oh, I definately agree with you here. Something should be done about the phoenix (or, alternatively, about the other ships), preferably without completely changing the way emp works when faced with different ships of the same class.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 13:47   #78
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
wtf have you done with the whole banshee vs peg inits.

you are absolutely nuts. To offset this please make the spectre the same init as wyverns.
I agree. Lets make xan indestructable! Maybe we can add them a new ship that targets all class and has init 1 too.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 14:01   #79
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

May I make a couple of name suggestions? I'll look at the stats proper later.

It's just some themes I quite liked.
Cath stun ships I tried to name after spiders (web tying things up etc), whilst killships were named after other crawlies. So the small/big killships you have would be renamed scorpion/mantis, and the 6 stunners would be, in order: spider - beetle - recluse - black widow - tarantula and either funnelweb, orb weaver, huntsman or whatever. I found it easier to remember and I thought it was quite cool.

Similarly, Zik stealships were named after people that steal things (pirate, thief etc). I preferred clipper & assassin for ones that do damage.

Also, I think the name 'magnate' would be good for an etd BS. And I like the names 'revenant' for a xand ship and cerberus/barghest for terran ships as well.


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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 15:04   #80
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

About the Terran stats (since I'm a Terran player now and havent played since R6):

- Terran only have 4 classes left. No one in their right mind will build Behemoths, for obvious reasons.
- Terrans still have to rely heavily on their galaxy in the beginning. Together with the Zik they need medium factories to be able to build anti-FI. This was one of the biggest drawbacks early on, FI pods roiding you with impunity. And like the saying goes where I live: a good beginning is half the job.
- The Drake is the new Syren imo. It does work in the beginning as flak for your pods, but is useless later on. This feeling may be influenced by havoc where Ter can only attack Ter without losing a lot of score. ATM still 6 Ter in T100 \o/
- I love the new Peg init! I was so tired of getting roided by Illusions getting flanked by a gazillion Banshees and not being able to do anything about it. My galm8s went crazy when I, once again, asked for thieves.
- With the Ranger gone only the Scorpion is truely able to stop the BA roidfleet of the Terran.

Phoenix has a 7.3 better EMP resistance than a Phantom, resource for resource. The EMP engine seems to work the same way the 'war'-engine works, use it to your advantage ;-)

Found one error: 10 guns on a BW.

One question in general: Why make it so difficult to create good stats when the basic concept could be much more simpler if the number of shipclasses equals the number of races?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 16:30   #81
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
I disagree that Cath are weaker defensively to be honest. I mean for starters they CAN actually stop CO attackers themselves now, meaning that their defence sink ships are only spiders and scarabs (scorp are free kill dont count them), and the rest are attack ships.
You can chose not to count the Scorps and asume that any attack ship will be available in plentyfull enough amounts to stop incomming but this will not be true. Cath will have to chose between Scorpions and Tarantulas as well as between Roaches and Vipers. A Cath CAN chose to weaken its attack in order to get a better defence. But that doesn't make them strong. It's just trading weaknesses.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 16:55   #82
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
You can chose not to count the Scorps and asume that any attack ship will be available in plentyfull enough amounts to stop incomming but this will not be true. Cath will have to chose between Scorpions and Tarantulas as well as between Roaches and Vipers. A Cath CAN chose to weaken its attack in order to get a better defence. But that doesn't make them strong. It's just trading weaknesses.
Why would cath have to choose between them, and why is that a disadvantage? They both target the same class at a very efficient rate. Scorps are freekill, and if a cath doesn't have enough of them to put off potential attackers (either actual numbers or stock res) that is their own fault.

All of this aside, what I can't understand is the idea that Cath are now weaker?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 17:18   #83
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

YO Game MY MAN!
How about:
Bucs>Co Steal
Cutlass>De Steal

pretty please?
Hugs and kisses from your true love <3

apart from that, stats look decent, gj.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 17:22   #84
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

i prefer imbalanced stats, makes going weaker races more interesting and more of a challenge which is what you need in pa nowadays
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 18:53   #85
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Why would cath have to choose between them, and why is that a disadvantage? They both target the same class at a very efficient rate. Scorps are freekill, and if a cath doesn't have enough of them to put off potential attackers (either actual numbers or stock res) that is their own fault.

All of this aside, what I can't understand is the idea that Cath are now weaker?
Scorpions are free kill. But you cannot use them in your attack fleet. So you have to chose:
- build more Scorpions and less Tara's (weaker attack fleet)
- build less Scorpions more Taras (weaker defence)
- build both and weaken the rest of your fleet.

Same with Viper/Roach:
The more you build to for both attack fleets the less resources you have for defence against other defences. Building two fleets that can stun an enemie's Fr is a waste but otherewise you reduce the usefullness of your fleets.

The weakening of Cath is a result of:
- increasing the emp resistance of many ships
- giving many fleets few other targets than Cathaar
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:19   #86
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

And this changed how?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:35   #87
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I am? How do you know that?

Assuming I am right, it does really make the two EMP corvettes a little loose-analed. With cheap fighters being available for three of five races, it shouldn't be too hard to cover those corvettes. Then if the viper gets tweaked down, you have cutters and nightmares, which you have anyways, and and and. Just don't go cath mkay. Or if you go cath, go cruiser, mkay. Just don't build tarants, because scorp is probably your best ship, mkay.

Mkay mkay.

Maybe time to tweak terran ship costs and EMP resistances on the low end?
This has two reasons, the ratio between terran ship costs and xan/zik ship costs are too big. If you kept costs within a reasonable ratio, there would be less of that annoying flak effect going on.
Or, reason two, you could change the combat engine so that targetting is done based on fleet value, and not on fleet size, but i think i asked for this change, and it got rejected on the ground that the current way is more realistic.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 19:54   #88
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This isn't quite as horrible due to the fact zik don't come with a natural fi pod so it'll be a lot more unlikely anyone can take advantage of this while attacking.

The investor is different as well, it's not an attack ship primarily and it only realistically targets your own fleet.
Actually, i took great advantage of it a few rounds ago. If you happen to steal enough xan fi, even if you don't have nearly as many illusions as a normal xan would have, just by building zik fi, your fi attack fleet is harder to stop than a xan fleet, and your zik stealers will do a lot of damage, forcing the target to run or lose a lot of fleet. I had enough pods to steal around 60 roids or so back then, but nevertheless, my fi fleet was my most effective that round, even more effective than my usual roiding fleets.
Granted, it's harder to steal xan fi now than it was back then, but letting a couple of xans land on you to steal enough fi ships is still profitable if the zik damage is good enough, and if you raise the salvage, then even more.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 20:13   #89
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is a horribly conservative reaction. The race dynamic itself changed. Xan fr can now hit etd and fi can't hit terran. Oh the horror!
I am only concerned that this change doesn't just switch etd and terran in the 'best race rank'. Last round xans had almost 0 chance to roid the dominant race (etd), this next round we could experience the same problem, only with terran being the dominant race?

I like the concept of xans not being able to roid themselves anymore. This was a huge faux pas imo.
I also like the idea that zik can't have 0 loss immunity against fr anymore, which gives them a weak point throughout the round, just the way other races have.
I won't comment on caths, since i think this race is fundamentally flawed.
I feel terrans are quite strong, and perhaps should be knocked down a bit. The cost ratios is an issue i'd like to see fixed though.
Etds look weak, but i think that adjusting the emp damage of the broker or reducing the emp res of its targets should fix that.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 20:20   #90
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

How many ziks last round had decent fi fleets? These rounds are also shorter so there's less time to accumulate the fi.

And ziks were last round's best race. The winner race was etd (akin to r17 and cathaar or whatever it was). To be honest I think the stats can be sufficiently balanced (i'm not in the camp of balance over all as it's more important to give everyone the opportunity to have fun) by changing emp res and so on, the targetting paradigm I think is fairly healthy.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 21:01   #91
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
How many ziks last round had decent fi fleets? These rounds are also shorter so there's less time to accumulate the fi.
At peaks, I had 30k'ish fighter pods. I never was arsed to build zik fighters, though. I was lazy.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 22:10   #92
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I've enjoyed reading this thread, although Game I haven't had a chance to look at your stats much yet. Once everyone has seemed to have settled on them I'll go through the ship names since that's been my forte of recent rounds.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 22:30   #93
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
At peaks, I had 30k'ish fighter pods. I never was arsed to build zik fighters, though. I was lazy.
Did you find a) many other ziks in a similar position or b) that this severely limited your fleet in other ways?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 23:45   #94
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Hmmm to be honest Keizari I wasn't even aware it worked in that way.

Ill check with Appoco to see if this can/is fixed, and if not we'll address the cost of the phoenix. As mz said I also assumed that the 'unused' freezers would then simply be used to freeze the others.

Ill get back to you soon I guess.
Thats what I've tried to explain to you before Game on IRC.. do you remember I was talking about numbers of ships and flak etc.. (yes, you were just ranting on about values, which didnt really matter in my examples but ok) No offence, but the least i expected from a guy designing the stats is that he knows how combat works tbh :/
At least now i know why you didnt get it.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 23:50   #95
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Early on this round i capped about 5k illusions with my buccs. As I was hitting edt with DE, i capped loads of merchs, like 200k. They have FAR better emp res than my cutlass, and added to however many cutlasses I could be arsed building I had a fairly decent FI fleet. As xan FI's average about 19 E/r, and mine was about 67% E/R, I had the equivalent of a xan FI fleet 1mil++ ships. This was so effective that the only BS i really concentrated on were scorps, preferring to hit with FI/FR/DE fleets, all of which were quite strong. My only real weaknesses were FR and CR incoming, and anything from a Ter, and with the easy faking of FR/DE roiding was easy enough. Keeping them, however, was no easy task :O)

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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 00:00   #96
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

There seem to be a few people myself included who solely like to build an xan fi based attack fleet (why shouldnt we?). It has been known we seem to get roided quite easy by Ter BS, Cath CR and Xan Fr.. then whatever a zik feels like sending. We need a decent attack fleet to offset the roid loss (assuming an average gal and average ally who cant cover all your inc).

Now being unable to hit TER for 0 losses (even though last round they werent THAT easy if they built enough de to flak their pegasus) has knocked us down to only realistily being able to roid the cath and etd. As jonny said "what in the name of god can roid xan? Just emp class ships" ... it seems they are the only ones xan fi players will be able to roid themselves with the current stats. This of course makes the phantom useless...even though it targets the emp ships theres sod all point in building a more expensive fighter as you can swamp out emp and still "play chicken" with ter de using banshee.

So what am i getting at? Basically.. i dont like landing for losses, so xans have two emp targets... with no use for phantom in an attack fleet. Someone kind enough to find some suggestions which would make it of more use? If you do decide to go for a heavy phantom based fleet.. ter then have the option of playing chicken with xans with their de and bs. Xans just seem to have fallen apart
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 01:40   #97
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

So basically you're saying "I see the merits of the frigate fleet, but I'm going with fighters nonetheless", and then you complain that your bad choice causes your fleet to be less effective?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 05:05   #98
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Yeah, Mzxydskaorea. That's called "stupidity" when you refuse to adapt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Did you find a) many other ziks in a similar position or b) that this severely limited your fleet in other ways?
a) I don't know really, I wasn't paying that much attention
b) Yeah. The fact that Titos kept transmogrifying my defence fleets into something not intended was a rather disturbing experience.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:27   #99
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
So basically you're saying "I see the merits of the frigate fleet, but I'm going with fighters nonetheless", and then you complain that your bad choice causes your fleet to be less effective?

Im saying i do see why people choose frigate fleets... simply because fi seem to have **** all chance of doing any good in the game. Now with pegasus being same init.. there is literally no use for the fi class xan ship when you can just use fr to roid people better.

Fi need to be given a break, back when there were 3 killing fi ships xans were a damn good race imo now they just look shite not being able to realisticly self cover much. If you choose to play with fi you can build shadow, but it then forces you to produce other fr flak for them to be useful. This then wastes resources which would be used on banshee lowering your chance of swamping out the emp.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:33   #100
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Let me say this loud and clear, so that any possible confusion or miscommunication that exists between us gets cleared up right away:

If you build a ship or class that isn't as efficient at its task as other ships or classes because you feel it should be, you're an idiot.
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