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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:11   #1
Almeida
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support planet rule r21

from fierys mail:

Any alliance caught having extra planets intentionally attacking with said alliance or
intentionally defending an alliance planet while not in galaxy or cluster; or a planet
acting as though it belongs to said alliance through it's actions, while not in said
alliance, will be construed as a violation of the alliance limit and those planets will
be closed.


does the first sentence mean, that if alliance X has support planets, the entire ally X and the support planets get closed?

and a question out of personal interest: i am playing without ally this round, so i am getting targets from friends every night.
does the rule mean i have to stop this now?
if yes: great i can't attack anymore at all. i am playing a free account and therefor can't research unit/JGP scans which means i can stop playing this round completely.

i am very interested who in the #alliances was for this implementation...
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:13   #2
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Re: support planet rule r21

Well, I am very interested WHEN this was discussed in the #alliances channel. The discussed in the alliance channel "excuse" is mostly bullox, because you can only grab whomever is around at that time to discuss with. I feel that if the PA team wants the #alliance channel participants attention and awareness about any discussions they should let people know in advance before starting an discussion.

However, that said, I can vaguely agree with the rule, but I think it needs to be clarified alot.

And if your friends are in alliances, how about prodding them for scans instead of attacking with them?
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:16   #3
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Re: support planet rule r21

i could do that, but my attacks are more likely to land if i join an ally/BG attack instead of soloing at a target.

also i hate to be restricted on where to attack by a stupid rule, but that is another issue, for now i just want my questions answered before i start whining
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:18   #4
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Re: support planet rule r21

I hear ya mate, and I wish we didn't have stupid rules restricting attacking OR defending myself.

I would prefer not having the support planet rule at all in the game, but as the rule was it was unfair because it only specified defense as a support planet action. And with the more attack focused game we got now, attacks needed to be included in the rule.

but yeah, prefer not having the rule at all.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:21   #5
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Re: support planet rule r21

another question just came to my mind:

if ally X and ally Y decide to block and attack together, is this against the rule?

the planets of ally X are support planets for ally Y, as well as the planets of ally Y are support planets for ally X according to the new rule
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:42   #6
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Re: support planet rule r21

Apperantly not. Though that might depend on the mood the multihunter is in.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 14:47   #7
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Re: support planet rule r21

You don't have to be closed due to this rule. The support planets rule is basically aimed at planets who would play in the best interests of the alliance they're supposedly supporting rather than their own planet. My advice would be to make sure your planet doesn't look like you're just supporting someone else, so don't take bad targets I guess, and/or point out who you are and that you're not a support planet to the multihunters. Of course that might just mean they keep a closer eye on your planet and close you sooner but hay nonny ho.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 16:13   #8
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Apperantly not. Though that might depend on the mood the multihunter is in.
As for most MH issues
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 16:32   #9
Almeida
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You don't have to be closed due to this rule. The support planets rule is basically aimed at planets who would play in the best interests of the alliance they're supposedly supporting rather than their own planet. My advice would be to make sure your planet doesn't look like you're just supporting someone else, so don't take bad targets I guess, and/or point out who you are and that you're not a support planet to the multihunters. Of course that might just mean they keep a closer eye on your planet and close you sooner but hay nonny ho.
i know that i don't have to be closed, but i want to make sure that the MHs can't close me.

the thing is: if someone checks my fleet launch history it WILL look like i was supporting an ally, in fact the ally really benefited for me, because they had a better coverage on their raids.

just to point out how stupid this rule is:

Scenario A: i keep attacking with my friends, but stay allyless --> i get closed because i now fall under the support planet rule

Scenario B: i create a one man tag (means in the terms of the EULA, i am part of a real and valid alliance) and keep attacking with my friends.

now this could have two outcomes: either they leave me open or still close me.

if they close me, they have to close every planet of 2 alliances who are blocking and cooperating on attacks, because if they don't they would enforce this rule inconsistently (yeh, well, that might still happen :S )

if they leave me open it shows how stupid this rule is: no matter if i create the one man tag or not, it has the same effect on the game, and in both cases the ally i am attacking with has exactly the same benefits from me and therefor the rule is absolutly useless because support planets only have to create a tag and they are free to attack whereever they want.

anyways, there are lots of IFs and WHENs in my assumptions, and i really would like to hear an official answer from the MH team. how the heck am i supposed to obey rules, if i got no ****ing idea which specific actions allowed and what isn't because the rules aren't crystal clear to me.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 16:37   #10
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Re: support planet rule r21

Im quite sure the default galbanner will soon be hitler & his raised hand with the following text: Admins knows best!
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 16:39   #11
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Re: support planet rule r21

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Allfather again."

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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 17:11   #12
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Re: support planet rule r21

You know you love me


-
When the admins came for the cheaters,
I remained silent;
I was not a cheater.

When they locked up the farmers,
I remained silent;
I was not a farmer.

When they came for the support planets,
I did not speak out;
I was not a support planet.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

-
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 18:37   #13
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Re: support planet rule r21

i talked about almost completly the same issues about this mail to the multihunters today ...
the general response was

1. "it depends on the case"
2. "keep suspicious actions to a minimum"
3. " you are around long enough to know what's wrong and right and how to act"

i think with this rule it is pretty easy to point out the black and white areas but is very complicated as soon you come to the more complicated things like solo-players getting targets from old friends who are still in alliances.

I am in Ascendancy and since we have no *real* attacks organised i join in attacks with my galmates alliance ... i dont feel myself as a support planet. i benefit as much or even more from that than the alliance i attack with.

So in the end it comes down to the mood of the MH :-(
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 18:43   #14
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Re: support planet rule r21

awesome; it's like getting into a club now; if the bouncer likes your face you are in; if he doesn't you're out.

honestly

THIS

IS

SHIT

AND

THIS

RULE

SHOULD

BE

DELETED

edit: or at least it should be fixed
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 20:26   #15
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Re: support planet rule r21

Almeida,
Unless your intent is to help a specific alliance there shouldn't be any issue.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 20:31   #16
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Re: support planet rule r21

i have no intentions in helping any ally; my intentions are to be successful on my attacks.

but still i attack with the same alliance all the time, which gives them an advantage and is prohibited by the rule.

can i get a guarantee, that i won't be closed because of this?

if you give me your word that i will stay open (unless i do any other violations ofc) that is perfectly fine for me and i will instantly shut up as i trust you and always experienced you as a reasonable and honest person.
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 22:55   #17
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
Almeida,
Unless your intent is to help a specific alliance there shouldn't be any issue.
well, he does give a valid point, attacking in pack is far more successful than attacking alone.

If you fail to see that, then maybe you should try a few more round as a player?
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Unread 20 Apr 2007, 23:53   #18
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Re: support planet rule r21

Almeida,
Let me clarify.
Unless your intent is to help a specific alliance violate the alliance limit rule there shouldn't be an issue.
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 01:48   #19
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
Almeida,
Let me clarify.
Unless your intent is to help a specific alliance violate the alliance limit rule there shouldn't be an issue.
In that case there's very little way to prove mere intent and the support planet rule is a worthless load of crap.
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 10:24   #20
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
i have no intentions in helping any ally; my intentions are to be successful on my attacks.

but still i attack with the same alliance all the time, which gives them an advantage and is prohibited by the rule.

can i get a guarantee, that i won't be closed because of this?

if you give me your word that i will stay open (unless i do any other violations ofc) that is perfectly fine for me and i will instantly shut up as i trust you and always experienced you as a reasonable and honest person.
in this situation, you are in direct violation of the rule

your not in the alliance in question, and you are assisting them repeatedly
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 11:04   #21
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
your not in the alliance in question, and you are assisting them repeatedly
Does that matter though? In this case it (apparantly) is done with the intent of growing his own planet, that it means he might give other attackers in a alliance more chance on landing doesn't really matter to him. And as pointed out, restricting his freedom to find his own targets with the best chance on growing isn't exactly helping allianceless players. Besides, with all the double/triple booking going on in galaxies, would those extra attackers really matter as such?

I still do not see why a support rule should be in place. Yes it benefits the alliance making use of them, but then again, everyone is free to use the game features as they exists. If you can find players willing to "waste" their round as support planet for your alliance, by all means do. Essentially in PA the alliance who managed to get most support (either by naps, allies or other planets helping them) will win the round and i do not see why certain forms of support should be prohibited.

And with the rule presented can we please ban planet naps in the same way? as it is obviously benefitting the alliance that is napped to in a unfair way, as it get less incoming than other alliances around it. In other words, where does the "fair" treatment in a rule begins, and where does it end? Who decides what is seen as fair? I can understand players finding support planets to be unfair to them, but essentially it is a way of covering up their own failure at getting extra support. I'm quite sure that players willing to be support planet, find it unfair they can't play the game the way they wanted to.

Imo player creativity in using the features as presented by the game should be encouraged, not restricted. If the game designers do not want the feature to be used in the ways possible, it is up to them to make sure it can't be used in those ways, or that it is recoded in such a way that it won't be a problem. All kinds of restrictions being enforced by some human factor, are certainly not making the game more enjoyable to play.
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 11:09   #22
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Re: support planet rule r21

aNgRyDuCk, that's exactly the reason why i started this thread, i want a clear answer like you just gave me, just i want it from a MH.
(if i was MH and had to enforce that rule i would have the same opinion as you)

Fiery, a: "there shouldn't be a problem" is not a satisfying answer. if i spend my time on this game and i get closed, then it was completely wasted time.

i told you that i got no intentions on helping an ally but still the ally i am attacking with has an advantage from it (at the same time i have an advantage from attacking together with them, as they provide me with scans and a better chance to land). now you know in what situation i am and if you were told to investigate my planet you would have to make a decision; so i want a clear answer: either YES you can keep attacking with your friends, or a NO if you keep doing that you will be closed
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 13:16   #23
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Re: support planet rule r21

Round after round we have discussions about the support planet rule
the stupidity of it,
the lack of clearness in it,
the inability of mh's to enforce it on every1, caus they hardly have a clue what to do with it either,
the fact that they sometimes allow support planets but otherwise not (1up in tag people donating all res to fund & not playing r17 & eXi out of tag in other ally cov-oppers),
...

Either make it perfectly clear for everything, or get rid of it.
Since it has been introduced it has caused nothing but trouble
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 17:06   #24
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Re: support planet rule r21

maybe the rule should be only enforced on free planets so we dont see 100 free planets signed up for a certain alliance and to only support them but as soon as you pay for your planet you can play and do whatever you want with your planet?

as long as it is in the "normal" rules - no multiing etc...
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 19:25   #25
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Re: support planet rule r21

I am still up for either dropping or hard-coding it. But the shit we have right now ain't satisfying.
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Unread 21 Apr 2007, 19:41   #26
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Re: support planet rule r21

This rule is crap but that doesn't even bother me reall. What does bother me is that they keep changing rules when a round is in progress. Can they just life with it for a round and "fix" the problem in the period between rounds?
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Unread 23 Apr 2007, 05:17   #27
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Re: support planet rule r21

I say get rid ofteh bloody rule

People helping out alliances that they aret actually a member of is all part and parcel of teh game of war.

In real war there isnt any rules as such to stop people from helping different people etc. So why should there be in PA

IF you Are going to keep the rule, state more clearly what it is that we are and arent allowed to do, and code it into the game so it is impossible for us to breach

otherwise, throw the rule out the windo and writeoff any "supporting" as a part of the game.

War isnt supposed to be fair... so whya re you trying to make it that way.
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Unread 23 Apr 2007, 07:38   #28
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Re: support planet rule r21

I dont like it either, so the sooner the better
And power to TGV and their 5-9wave attacks
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Unread 24 Apr 2007, 16:04   #29
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Re: support planet rule r21

The rule is just too vague and can be interpreted in far too many ways, like this post.

Quote:
(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.
It's a war game, this rule doesn't belong in the game. If there are specific problems with "support" planets which actually cause harm when they're outside of an alliance then they should be fixed with design changes to the game itself.

Analyse the problems support planets cause, fix them as best as possible and then remove the rule.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 09:56   #30
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Re: support planet rule r21

tbfh all thease rules are ruining the game
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:10   #31
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Re: support planet rule r21

people not abiding by the wording or intent of the rules are ruining the game by forcing yet more rules to clarify the situation and ban behaviour which is damaging to the game.
Take a good look at your own position and what you have done before so quickly pointing the finger at others.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:25   #32
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
people not abiding by the wording or intent of the rules are ruining the game by forcing yet more rules to clarify the situation and ban behaviour which is damaging to the game.
Take a good look at your own position and what you have done before so quickly pointing the finger at others.
Allfather's point is very valid to be honest. The issue boils down to game design: either you allow certain things (farming for instance) and thus ensure that everyone can do it, or you implement game mechanisms which prevent this right away. Once you start writing it out as rules which have to be judged by game masters (or multihunters) the game gets unnecessarily complex and unclear in what one is allowed to do and what not. Whenever you need such rules it is time that you revisit your game design and change it appropriately - or you simply accept certain things.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 10:34   #33
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Re: support planet rule r21

and i suppose you have an algorithm to hand which can perfectly distinguish things like farming from normal attacks or coincidental attacks?
There are rules in place because certain things are problematic at best to hard code, and others have the potential for being too limiting.
By making rules, it allows greater flexibility in cherrypicking the events which are not permitted from those which are fine.
Being unable to implement it in design does not lead on to just accepting the existance of something

In the case of support planets, its perfectly clear and understandable.
alliances shall have x members, no more. the limit of the tag size was supposed to accomodate this, but someone decided that this wasnt good enough for them. They wanted an advantage over all the others and so used out of tag support planets.
This is the legacy of that choice, a choice made for purely selfish reasons - and one that everyone must live with the consequences of

It is players like this, who try to bend, break or flat out ignore rules and their intents which you should be focusing on, instead of crying out about the consequences of their actions.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 11:10   #34
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
and i suppose you have an algorithm to hand which can perfectly distinguish things like farming from normal attacks or coincidental attacks? There are rules in place because certain things are problematic at best to hard code, and others have the potential for being too limiting.
No, I don't have an algorithm at hand to prevent farming, but farming itself is a very good example at raising the question of: "Why should this be forbidden?" Farming is an option every player should be able to choose to play, just like scanning is allowed. It does not harm anyone. It does not disadvantage anyone. It just inceases the amount of asteroids available. It was originally set in place to give less reason for multying, but in all honesty, multying is a lot harder to spot than farming. So why try to fix one problem with introducing a new one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
By making rules, it allows greater flexibility in cherrypicking the events which are not permitted from those which are fine.
And this cherrypicking of events usually leads to altering the outcome of a round without any of the affected players having a chance to do something against it. This creates a huge amount of frustration and usually leads to driving players away from the game.
Apart from that, rules must not be flexible. Rules must be clear in what is permitted and what not, and as such they have to be applied exactly that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Being unable to implement it in design does not lead on to just accepting the existance of something
You are able to implement everything in design. Design does not mean "I said this has to be only this way" (which would be VERY VERY VERY bad design), design means that you are capable of creating a system where different components work together to achieve a goal - in the case of game-design it means enjoying to play the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
]
In the case of support planets, its perfectly clear and understandable.
The intent behind the rule is clear, the rule itself is not.
I would like to point out that Almeida perfectly managed to lead the support planet rule ad absurdum, namely by describing that he is often performing the actions which are defined as "supporting an alliance", while claiming not to have the intent to do so. It's interesting that fiery allowed it in this particular case.

In fiery's defense: how would she want to measure intention of someone?
Against fiery's decision: Where is that a clear and understandable decision at which point someone violates the rule or not?

Even you should be able to spot the dilemma here: Everyone can simply violate the rule but if you say "no no, I didn't mean to support the alliance, I just like to play with my friends x, y and z" you can get away with it. This, however, is not obvious for most people when signing up, and as such only a selected few people will gain advantage from such loopholes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
alliances shall have x members, no more. the limit of the tag size was supposed to accomodate this, but someone decided that this wasnt good enough for them. They wanted an advantage over all the others and so used out of tag support planets.
This is the legacy of that choice, a choice made for purely selfish reasons - and one that everyone must live with the consequences of
The support planet rule was instantiated to fix broken game design, while it could have been fixed in a more efficient, even though less popular way (either dropping the maximum size limit OR hard-coding defense missions). Since PA Team didnt want a loud outcry of one side (the pro alliance limit people) nor of the other (basically everyone who has friends outside his alliance was against lmiting defense options) they simply shifted the blame factor on to the multihunters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
It is players like this, who try to bend, break or flat out ignore rules and their intents which you should be focusing on, instead of crying out about the consequences of their actions.
If you don't need rules like the support planet rule, there won't be people which will try to bend it. People will always strife for gaining advantages ingame, though, and as long as that does not involve managing multiple planets / sharing a planet between multiple people everything is fine.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 11:18   #35
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
~
And how what does that have to do with anything? yes it was there choise, but there was nothing preventing them from doing it either. By not being in tag they certainly won't have all the benefits in tag planets will have, so in the design it was clearly shown that out of tag planets are meant to interact different than planets sharing the same tag but were a option to have. Any problem can be balanced within game, but that would require a dynamic game, rather than the 1+1 can at max be 1,5 limitations we see atm.

A (war) game is all about getting advantages over others, and you do that by using any means possible allowed by the game mechanics. Whether ppl moraly agree to them doesn't matter one bit, the option is there to use and apparantly the game admins see it as a good features because i'm sure they would have removed any form of possible interaction that isn't meant to be a option.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 19:17   #36
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by spineless fag
why arent i surprised that ex-exilition people dont like to follow the rules of the game.
i just received that rep and i would like to answer it and point a few things out.

1) this has nothing to do with me beeing eXi

2) kudos for not signing the rep you spineless, brainless, whimpy twat

3) if you had half a brain you would have understood that i WANT to follow the rules. that was the main motivation to create this thread. when i signed up, attacking together with another ally WAS NOT against the rules. as the rule was created i instantly came here to ask if i could still attack together with my m8s or if i have to stop it. (i still haven't got a clear answer btw). so could you witty ****face explain to me, why you are thinking that i don't want to follow the rules?

4) tell me who you are and we can continue this convo in PM as i don't want to spam this thread with anymore of this shit

5) sorry to the rest of the readers of this thread, i am just very sensitive when someone calls me a cheater
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 19:38   #37
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Re: support planet rule r21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
Almeida,
Let me clarify.
Unless your intent is to help a specific alliance violate the alliance limit rule there shouldn't be an issue.
Define "intent to help a specific alliance to violate the alliance limit rule". Please. I am still clueless how you want to close someone after that sentence you made.
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