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Unread 13 Jun 2012, 03:33   #1
Aedolaws
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Ministers' abilities

This is in addition to what they already do:

MoD :: Free trading in gal. 1% with ally. 2% with universe.

MoW :: Eta 4 def fleets in gal

MoC :: +20% amps scanning ability

GC :: All of the above!!!

Last edited by Aedolaws; 13 Jun 2012 at 11:31.
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Unread 13 Jun 2012, 08:19   #2
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Yeah you so smart........
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Unread 13 Jun 2012, 16:51   #3
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Re: Ministers' abilities

This really accomplishes nothing; it doesn't create interesting gameplay nor does it solve any current issues.


Please put more thought into suggestions.
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Unread 13 Jun 2012, 18:47   #4
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Sweet,

Active GC, just switches ministers around so they can all launch eta 4 fleets.

Winner.
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 00:22   #5
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Well, I disagree.

But you m8s probably know better.
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 03:25   #6
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Why does it need to accomplish something? it makes being a minister fun! only MoD does anything in the game anyway
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 14:58   #7
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Re: Ministers' abilities

The MoW and MoC abilities you propose are overpowered. Disting is hard enough as is, and lowering ETAs ingal to 4 for a significant part of the galaxy (switching the roles around is easy) will make galaxies much stronger than they already are.

I'm inclined to agree with the substance of the first two replies, if not the form.

Removing ministers would be fine in my book, since indeed, their abilities are nigh useless.
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 15:47   #8
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
Well, I disagree.

But you m8s probably know better.
My main issue isn't even with the suggestion itself, in fact, I'd like something more to be done with Ministers. It's that you randomly throw out an idea, giving no introduction as to why it's needed or what you want to accomplish with it, adding (as far as we can tell) random numbers to it without backing up the reasoning behind them, and on top of that they're blatantly open to abuse.


It just seems like you put no thought into it. We all have plenty of ideas that would seem like fun, but you can't just add things for the sake of adding things.
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 16:14   #9
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Here are mine,

MoC - auto translator tool in scroll down menu, options like Klingon and Imperial, or Latin
MoW - can set up to 3 galaxy relations, no real effect enforced, but it shows up on galaxy relations
MoD - can set the gal fund trading tax rate
GC - can disable any of the ministers special abilities

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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 18:04   #10
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Re: Ministers' abilities

i sort of like your ideas budious!

GC - Gal Pic, Gal Name, Planet Statuses, Exiling, choosing ministers, Galaxy wide mail

MoD - Ability to set a gal tax rate (max 2%), Ability to set the cost of trading resources with the gal fund (from 2% to 10%), ability to distribute the fund as needed to elligable members of the gal.

MoW - Ability to see Ships of people in the gal, Ability to keep track of planet development of the galaxy i.e D scan info.

MoC - Gal wide mail capability, capability to view calcs made for defence calls within members Alliance.

However, only way some of these could work was if people opted in to them, bit like scan sharing and ally tax are atm.
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Unread 14 Jun 2012, 18:22   #11
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Re: Ministers' abilities

remove ministers
gc controls gal fund
all planets given mail galaxy option
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 00:51   #12
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Re: Ministers' abilities

(Exiling requires 4-5 votes from anyone.)
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 01:03   #13
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
My main issue isn't even with the suggestion itself, in fact, I'd like something more to be done with Ministers. It's that you randomly throw out an idea, giving no introduction as to why it's needed or what you want to accomplish with it, adding (as far as we can tell) random numbers to it without backing up the reasoning behind them, and on top of that they're blatantly open to abuse.


It just seems like you put no thought into it. We all have plenty of ideas that would seem like fun, but you can't just add things for the sake of adding things.
Well, I guess you are right. I was just trying to avoid the long post. Which, believe me I could deliver, i.e. http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=195108. Besides, 60% of my job is writing long ass legal briefs, and when I come home, writing is the last thing I want to do.

1) As to exploiting the GC changing roles, it could easily be avoided by implementing a delay, say 12 hours, or even just 6, akin to the delay when you drop from alliance.

2) As to the random numbers I picked. Yes, they are, but I think reasonable. I used the same approach here.

3) As to the MoW and MoC's 20% bonuses being too much, I disagree.

a) Every galaxy will have 1 MoC, 1 scanner, so although a significant change perhaps within a gal, it would be evenly distributed across the universe. Besides, all ally scanners will become MoCs and have the same bonus. Moreover, MoC's bonus would be a %, so the player must actually go scanner/build amps to rip the benefits, IF NOT, then it would not matter much. This is not a small commitment. And even if all MoCs went scanner, then so what, 30 to 40 players with a 20% scanning advantage? Again, evenly distributed across the universe. (Every gal with a scanner!)

b) Similarly, in order for the MoW to rip the benefits the player would have to become the top defender and probably the DC of the galaxy, and this is not a small commitment either, but it would be required if the player truly wants to exploit the benefits of the bonus.

4) As to the difficulty to use distorters effectively, well... you are right, it would be more difficult because now ALL MoCs, IF they go scanner, will have an advantage. To this I say, it ain't supposed to be easy!

5) Call & raise!

a) give MoW a 20% stealth bonus (Max/Rel/Cost) + cheaper agents; and 20% production bonus + ability to raise population assigned to shipyards (yes, both of them, so they can truly mobilize for war).

b) give GC/MoD a 20% alert bonus (Max/Dec) + cheaper guards. (Again, GC to share most of the other minister's abilities, except the big ones)

c) Give the MoD a minor % for construction and mining. Shit, I would go as far as giving the ability to "adopt" a planet so that it mines/researches/builds at an increased rate (say 20%). Only one planet at a time per gal. With a score/value cap, so it could only be used for new accounts. And with a time limit, say a week at the most.

*** Conversely, we could also impose the ministers with penalties, further narrowing their roles ***

Anyways, I guess my point was that, as they have always been, the ministries are superfluous. And, in my opinion, they could easily be made more meaningful. As to how, I am sure it has been discussed since round #1, yet for some reason, ministers have gained little in more than 10 years I have been playing this awesome goddamned game. As to the specifics, who cares.

In short, in my short original proposal I hinted at the idea of making GC/MoD, MoW, and MoC more like the HCs, BC/DC,s and scanners. And given that PA is ever more alliance focused, some refocusing in the gal team may prove worthy of exploring, not only for top alliances, but ***especially*** for the sake of the newest players. i.e., if alliances are smart, they will try to get as many ministers as possible, which in turn would be tutors to new players.

As they are, ministries mean little. They always have.

Now m8s, use lube pls!

Last edited by Aedolaws; 15 Jun 2012 at 04:44.
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 06:56   #14
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
Well, I guess you are right. I was just trying to avoid the long post. Which, believe me I could deliver, i.e. http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=195108. Besides, 60% of my job is writing long ass legal briefs, and when I come home, writing is the last thing I want to do.

1) As to exploiting the GC changing roles, it could easily be avoided by implementing a delay, say 12 hours, or even just 6, akin to the delay when you drop from alliance.

2) As to the random numbers I picked. Yes, they are, but I think reasonable. I used the same approach here.

3) As to the MoW and MoC's 20% bonuses being too much, I disagree.

a) Every galaxy will have 1 MoC, 1 scanner, so although a significant change perhaps within a gal, it would be evenly distributed across the universe. Besides, all ally scanners will become MoCs and have the same bonus. Moreover, MoC's bonus would be a %, so the player must actually go scanner/build amps to rip the benefits, IF NOT, then it would not matter much. This is not a small commitment. And even if all MoCs went scanner, then so what, 30 to 40 players with a 20% scanning advantage? Again, evenly distributed across the universe. (Every gal with a scanner!)

b) Similarly, in order for the MoW to rip the benefits the player would have to become the top defender and probably the DC of the galaxy, and this is not a small commitment either, but it would be required if the player truly wants to exploit the benefits of the bonus.

4) As to the difficulty to use distorters effectively, well... you are right, it would be more difficult because now ALL MoCs, IF they go scanner, will have an advantage. To this I say, it ain't supposed to be easy!

5) Call & raise!

a) give MoW a 20% stealth bonus (Max/Rel/Cost) + cheaper agents; and 20% production bonus + ability to raise population assigned to shipyards (yes, both of them, so they can truly mobilize for war).

b) give GC/MoD a 20% alert bonus (Max/Dec) + cheaper guards. (Again, GC to share most of the other minister's abilities, except the big ones)

c) Give the MoD a minor % for construction and mining. Shit, I would go as far as giving the ability to "adopt" a planet so that it mines/researches/builds at an increased rate (say 20%). Only one planet at a time per gal. With a score/value cap, so it could only be used for new accounts. And with a time limit, say a week at the most.

*** Conversely, we could also impose the ministers with penalties, further narrowing their roles ***

Anyways, I guess my point was that, as they have always been, the ministries are superfluous. And, in my opinion, they could easily be made more meaningful. As to how, I am sure it has been discussed since round #1, yet for some reason, ministers have gained little in more than 10 years I have been playing this awesome goddamned game. As to the specifics, who cares.

In short, in my short original proposal I hinted at the idea of making GC/MoD, MoW, and MoC more like the HCs, BC/DC,s and scanners. And given that PA is ever more alliance focused, some refocusing in the gal team may prove worthy of exploring, not only for top alliances, but ***especially*** for the sake of the newest players. i.e., if alliances are smart, they will try to get as many ministers as possible, which in turn would be tutors to new players.

As they are, ministries mean little. They always have.

Now m8s, use lube pls!
Giving ministers more unfair advantages towards the way top the top ranks is just stupid. They already have to much of an advantage with the color on their names giving em less random incs.
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 07:08   #15
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Re: Ministers' abilities

I do not think the "abilities" would be unfair advantages, anyone has a shot at them. How friends/allies form buddy packs is up to the friends/allies, etc. And most ministries will be claimed by paid accounts!

Color? Really? Cmm!!!

As of now (I may have in the past) I couldn't care less about being a GC, or a minister, except that I would like to see them play a larger role in the game.

If experienced players rush to claim all ministries for the bonus it would perhaps tend and allow to increase the size of the universe, since we might want to see smaller galaxies. And the more ministers, the more tutors, the more retention rate for n00b players.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 15 Jun 2012 at 08:09.
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 09:29   #16
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
snip
I think some of your suggestions are interesting, but would rather see them introduced into governments than into minister perks. Some more specific comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
4) As to the difficulty to use distorters effectively, well... you are right, it would be more difficult because now ALL MoCs, IF they go scanner, will have an advantage. To this I say, it ain't supposed to be easy!
It isn't. But it should be viable. Disting is wholly dependent on staying slightly ahead of dedicated alliance scanners. This is why dists cost 900 CP and amps 1000. Giving every scanner a 20% bonus on amps would effectively kill it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
c) Give the MoD a minor % for construction and mining. Shit, I would go as far as giving the ability to "adopt" a planet so that it mines/researches/builds at an increased rate (say 20%). Only one planet at a time per gal. With a score/value cap, so it could only be used for new accounts. And with a time limit, say a week at the most.
Late starting is already ridiculous, does nothing good for the game, and should be removed yesterday. Once that's done, I don't think I'd object too much to this idea, but until then, it's a big no-no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
they will try to get as many ministers as possible, which in turn would be tutors to new players.
I don't think this follows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
They already have to much of an advantage with the color on their names giving em less random incs.
lol
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Unread 15 Jun 2012, 10:59   #17
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Re: Ministers' abilities

I like your objection to the MoD's bonus. I agree that it would be ridiculous how easy new accounts would be able to match the aver. value/score. But unlike you, I think that is great! That is precisely the beauty of it, it should be a team of around 10 people. The faster u get it going the better. Who u decide to keep is the key. As the round progresses it becomes a gal priority to make sure the newest accounts, likely n00bs not upgraded accounts, become aver value/score and have some clue and say about what they r doing/going on. If they actually get to experience PA, chances are they will pay next round!.. I think, based on experience.

(Although, I understand if this might not make much sense if u look at it just from a top ally's shoes, atm!)

Last edited by Aedolaws; 16 Jun 2012 at 16:53.
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Unread 16 Jun 2012, 13:05   #18
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws View Post
I like your objection to the MoD's bonus. I agree that it would be ridiculous how easy new accounts would be able to match the aver. value/score. But unlike you, I think that is great! That is precisely the beauty of it, it should be a team of around 10 people. The faster u get it going the better. Who u decide to keep is the key. As the round progresses it becomes a gal priority to make sure the newest accounts, likely n00bs not upgraded accounts, become aver value/score and have some clue and say about what they r doing/going on. If they actually get to experience PA, chances are they will pay next round!.. I think, based on experience.

(Although, I understand if this might not make much sense if u look at it just from a top ally's shoes, atm!)
Most proper late starters now are seasoned pro's who failed at trying to exile into their prefered galaxy for first 300 ticks. The term 'latestarter' signifys someone who has purposefully signed up/reset at around tick 312 to go into a specific galaxy via the latestart code from buddy packs. It is wholly different to a new players randomly starting up into a galaxy randomly.


I do like tha ideas of making the minister roles more meaningful and trying to push the game play towards galaxies a bit more, the only problem with it is as always, decreasing playerbase, decreasing activity and the core of the active,dedicated players pooled into 1-2 alliances (mainly 1) and across like 6 BP's.

Same old faces, same old outcome!
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Unread 16 Jun 2012, 16:54   #19
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Noted

Last edited by Aedolaws; 16 Jun 2012 at 20:52.
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 10:29   #20
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Any special ability/advantage for a minister or GC that influences his/her own planet directly is bad.

So any bonus that has something to do with getting more resources, stuff costing less, or making game mechanics more powerfull and that way influencing how much a player needs of those game mechanics, is bad.

In the old days, the GC had a 10% mining bonus, and ministers had a 5% mining bonus. The idea was that those who lead, earn some form of compensation. It never worked that way. Basicly, what was done is make the 4 biggest planets minister and GC, so they could even get bigger. Had nothing to do with leading the galaxy.

These days ministers are usually equivalent to 4 members of a BP, who already have a bond. Ministers use their abilities to exile people they don't want or need, that's about it. Minister posts are swapped as needed, depending on who is online to say YES to an exile or for manipulating the galaxy fund.

Personally, i would be for removing ministers completely and keeping the GC for exiling and setting the galaxy name/banner. Exile would be based on getting 50% of the votes or more, or any other idea that would work. All galaxy members should be able to mail the entire galaxy. Not sure how to treat the trusted/not trusted/not wanted stuff: GC only, majority of votes, remove from game, etc.
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 11:02   #21
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Re: Ministers' abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
In the old days, the GC had a 10% mining bonus, and ministers had a 5% mining bonus. The idea was that those who lead, earn some form of compensation. It never worked that way.
I'd like to add that people in leadership positions don't need to be rewarded by the game. The positions of GC and (especially) HC, despite having some representation in-game, do not actually function there. They function outside of the game, in that vague region we sometimes call 'meta-game'. HCs already have certain advantages there. They can award themselves certain advantages (like prioritize their defense), they can shape their environment, both inside their alliance (by kicking and recruiting people, by setting policy, etc) and outside of it (by forging alliances and declaring war) and they earn fame and glory in a way 'normal' players can't (by taking credit for achievements that should in fact be credited to groups, not individuals).

Adding to that a way to also achieve genuine personal glory, by encouraging encroachments on the one area where individuals can in fact earn personal fame (ie, the planet rankings, boring as they are), is, in my most humble opinion, a bad idea, because it constitutes unfair competition. (Trust me, no one hates the word 'unfair' more than I do; unfortunately, I can't think of another convenient short-hand to describe it.)

As for GCs, they perform roughly the same function, except on a smaller scale (and because of that smaller scale, their position in the game itself is more consolidated). I see no reason why my argument against HC incentives cannot also be applied to GCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Basicly, what was done is make the 4 biggest planets minister and GC, so they could even get bigger. Had nothing to do with leading the galaxy.
Ignoring the first part of this post for a moment, this could be prevented by making it a flat bonus, rather than a proportional one: a 3000 roid planet has less use for a 100 roid income bonus than a 300 roid planet does.
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