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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 07:16   #101
BloodyButcher
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
Oh I agree, running an alliance is not easy and HCs/Officers get burned out quite often. There are quite a few people that can run an alliance but there are not too many people that want to due to RL or they know they dont have the activity or they just dont want to devote that much of their time since they have done it in the past and they know what it means to be in a command role.

One reason why TGV didnt play r45 is because the HC team was burned out and needed a break and there was no replacement.

I am not saying reducing the alliance size will be the cure to PA's current problem, but it might help lead to a cure. Lets say that each of CT, ND, Fang, xVx, Ultores reduces their size by 20 members with 13 of them sticking around in PA and being active/semi active. That's a potential of 65 players (13x5=65). Those 65 players would most likely go into established alliances such as DLR, ToF, HR, Apprime, DFWTK and NGO. Since the alliance tag was reduced and the 2nd tiered alliances have gotten some more active players and have increased their tag size they now have a more significant impact on the game as well as politics. Instead of being relegated to attaching themselves to 1 of the bigger alliances they have a bigger say and can actually dictate politics and determine the course of PA a bit more than they do now.

Of course reducing the alliance size wont fix (m)any of the problems and it has the potential to add new problems too. But I think most PA players agree that the current format cannot survive and something has to be done to improve the game. What the solution is, nobody really knows but reducing the alliance size might be a something to try out for 2-3 rounds. It should not just be done for 1 round since it will take at least 1 round for the community to adjust to such a change.
If every alliance CT/FAnG/ND/xVx have to reduce their tags with 20 players, it will NOT be the 20(13 whatever) who will go on to establish an new alliance and it will not be these members that other alliances will go hunting for.
They will try keep the members with the most resources and the one that contribute the most.
If you reduce the alliance limit, you will reduce the playerbase, this is not something you want to do.
I have my own opinions, and i dont expect you to agree with them.
The community is what binds this game together, it is what made this game what it once was(when rules wernt as stricly enforced as today and there were no limits in alliance size).
The curve is pointing downwards, instead of trying to make the game more fun for those who is sitting on this curve who is heading straight to the bottom, you should look to change the game for something that would make the curve point the most upwards as possibole incase there suddently would be put in some effort by the owners and the PA team to attract new players.
So please, dont try to come up with you thoughts on how to fix the game if you dont realy think it is the best long term choice.
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 07:42   #102
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Re: Alliance Size

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The curve is pointing downwards, instead of trying to make the game more fun for those who is sitting on this curve .


You mean yourself? Who sits away from the computer and only sends ships when you can be arsed to log in?

You think that only the low end players will be cut? You sure that people won't leave to join an old alliance, or one of the new ones. You know that its not only people being kicked from allys that would cause them to leave, its also recruits, people that don't want to deal with the hc's or officers. There is always player turn-over in the alliances. The core will stay and soon the core will be all that make up each alliance and not the riff raff of the wanders(myself included).

The worst thing to happen would to for the limits to be reduced and then the counting limit to be reduced with it. It should be 50 counting 50 or 60 counting 60. Make every player count so that way people are more inclined to help out the lower end players.
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 07:55   #103
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Re: Alliance Size

- forget the new players, there are none, and alliance limits will anyways not have anything to do with new players

- i dont think that alliances will keep the top ranked players like u said, they`d rather keep the core and better mates, who quite often arent the best ranked

- community will still be there, just in a slightly different form (if u cant play in tag a, then u can play in tag b.. u dont have to forget ure mates and not talk to them anymore; one can also bp with them)

- running alliance is not something that any regular player can do effectivly, indeed.. but there are more than capable ppl out there that have done it in previous times and could try it once again.. there will be an alliance for every single player, I do not doubt that for a second

I think we would argue till the end of times, since we both have our points which we belive in, however we are most probably not gonna see anything changing.. i got a feeling that this game dosent have much time left..

edit: that was actually a replish thing for butcher
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 10:44   #104
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Re: Alliance Size

Last round, 37% of players were either not in an alliance at all, or in an alliance with fewer than 10 people. If we take the worse case scenario, that this 37% is comprised of the worst players in the universe, that means that the best of them still had a score of at least 2.1m, and at least 143 of them had a score over 1m, 127 of whom were outside of c200.

While this is not particularly awesome, it is clear that we aren't talking about idiots who didn't play the game. These are people who logged in regularly and repeatedly, throughout the round, easily enough to keep their planet alive.

Unless you think that these are the same people every round, that makes the statement "there are no new players" is completely ludicrous. So please knock it off with this "there are no newbies, we should only attempt to please the hardcore old-timers" bullshit. It is not only incorrect, but directly harmful to the medium and long term future of this game.


PS: Appoco: I would be interested in seeing roids, value, XP and score of the top 100 of allianceless planets, using the stats of tick 1173 to weed out the ex-Apprime planets. Would that be possible?
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 9 Mar 2012 at 10:51.
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 12:07   #105
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Re: Alliance Size

neroon you say that there will be an alliance for everyone. what about those people in the top ranked alliances that actually like just being a support planet and in an alliance that competes. i think a lot of those people will just stop playing rather than join a smaller alliance that they have to commit more of their time to if they are going to be of use.

less players is bad, whateva else your arguments are, i believe this is what will happen if you drop alliance limits and remove non-counting planets from alliances.
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 12:44   #106
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Re: Alliance Size

I have not been able to find a correlation between alliance limit and number of people playing in alliances, nor between alliance limit and number of planets in the universe.

It's been a while since I last posted the graphs, so here they are:

http://s3.kkloud.com/gett/10qGRmE/to...ablpkz9f6r.png
http://s3.kkloud.com/gett/10qGRmE/av...qdt3k81tt9.png

Some comments:

All numbers are from round end.

The spikes in number of players rounds 16, 22, 27, and 44 (?) were due to free rounds. Round 30 was supposed to be the last round of PA. PA was bought by Pete before round 31 and by Jagex before round 38.

Alliance limit only shows total number of planets allowed in a tag, regardless of what the counting member limit was.

The "people in alliances" stat is really "number of people in alliances of >= 40 people" and "total alliances" is "number of alliances with >= 40 people"

"Average members" = "number of people in alliances >= 40 people" / "number of alliances with >= 40 people".

"Total" is total number of players. I think I disregarded planets without roids, but I can't be sure.
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 18:33   #107
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Re: Alliance Size

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Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Every time someone makes the mistake of referring to DLR as if they are somehow the opressed victims standing up for all that is right and awesome I'm going to come back with the same response -
I am not saying they are oppressed, I am just using them as an example since others have. You can easily substitute any small alliance that has a good active group and consistently has a good score/value/roid ratio but not the members to challenge for top3 alliance or the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Oh, and you're not going to believe me, but to say that 85% of Ultores can be counted as active is laughable by any recent standard. I also doubt our core would run away with a small tag round. What we do have is a decent system of responsibility and a bunch of decent roiders.
Hmm... I was always under the impression that ultores members were quite active and had a higher percentage of active players compared to other alliances. Again basing that on the impression I have gotten from people since I have never been ultores but I could be way off base. How would you classify the activity level of your members?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
I have to pick up on this as well. I'm not trying to make this personal but PA has survived with alliance limits around this level for the last 35 rounds or so. Let's not get too hyperbolic. You may want a change but while the game might not thrive it's unlikely to die.
Yes PA has survived for over 10 years but lets face it its declining and dieing. The days of having over 2k active players are gone. Most people only play PA due to friends and the community and the community is not really growing. Its not friendly to new players at all and doesnt give them much of a chance. Also the way PA is progressing at the moment where the owners are not taking any visible active part in its development or interaction with the community is probably contributing to all the threads/suggestions/discussion on what can be done to increase the playing community. So yes, PA has survived this long on what it offers but its dying and on its only a matter of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post

The DLR/ToF condunrum is a weird one, i agree with Shev that if they wanted to compete for the win they could recruit enough decent players to do so BUT these players would come from another competeing alliance, as most probably not Ultores. This means that your only taking away from Ultores rivals, it doesnt add to the amount of alliances 'going for the win' it just means DLR/ToF would replace an exsiting one. Thats because the playerbase isnt growing anymore, just dwindling. We didnt even make 1k players this round
Oh I agree, they could compete with the bigger alliances if they recruit up to the limit with quality players and as you stated they would probably come from existing established alliances. The point I and other are trying to make is if the alliance size limit is decreased to 50, then they would not necessarily have to go down that route and decrease the effectiveness of the alliances where they got their new members from. With a lower alliance limit DLR/ToF would then be able to compete against the (currently) higher tiered alliance with their existing members. So instead of having Ultores, CT, ND, xVx and Fang being contenders for teh alliance win, by reducing the alliance limit now DLR, ToF, Apprime can also go for the alliance win. This means there are more alliances and maybe more blocks trying for the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post

My opinion stays as this - low tag limits sound cool but wouldnt really change PA... bigger tags (limitless) would kill PA in about 5-6 rounds. Stay with tags as they are or have a drop of 10 per alliance max but make everybody count towards score. That will make crashes/fc's/big roid losses impact more on an alliances score and make the need to war/attack/defend sensibly more appropriate.
Agreed, all members should count toward score/value. It would make things more interesting and support planets would actually have to be decent planets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The curve is pointing downwards, instead of trying to make the game more fun for those who is sitting on this curve who is heading straight to the bottom, you should look to change the game for something that would make the curve point the most upwards as possibole incase there suddently would be put in some effort by the owners and the PA team to attract new players.
So please, dont try to come up with you thoughts on how to fix the game if you dont realy think it is the best long term choice.
Unfortunately it seems that the owners of PA have kinda disappeared and are not putting much effort into PA or even monitoring things. At least that's the impression I have been getting, I could be wrong so who knows. Its probably one of the main reason that every few weeks a similar thread gets created on what should be done to try to resurrect PA. For the time being all we have left is talking about things. Unless the owners put some resources behind PA I cant see any improvements coming. PA Team only can do so much and modify the game slightly, ie new stats every round, change PL, change alliance limit, etc... basically simple stuff that is just a matter of changing a few numbers in the database/code.

@Mzyxptlk
Thanks for the graph. Some interesting analysis. I guess if this keeps going pretty soon I will be able to have the #1 gal, #1 planet and #1 alliance
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Unread 9 Mar 2012, 21:30   #108
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Re: Alliance Size

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Pa draft ftw
we have a winner :-D , take everyone out of their comfort zone the endless possibility's of emoness demand that we do this
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Unread 10 Mar 2012, 06:34   #109
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Re: Alliance Size

We should have a PA Draft that would mix everything up. It's totally not viable because no way would it ever be implemented but i like the concept
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Unread 28 Mar 2012, 21:18   #110
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Re: Alliance Size

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
For the love of ****** - you really don't get it, do you?

Please explain to us all how smaller tags are going to reduce the elitism and dominance of the top tags - and how lots of small tags full of the "poorer" players are going to survive at the bottom of the pile.
I would myself, but theres another thread for that, full of comments and ideas.. also the reasons, why theres a portion of ppl in planetarion that think it helps.. enjoy

PS: u really dont get it, do you?
I made three attempts (on the first page of this thread) to get members of the "smaller tags faction" to engage in meaningful discussions on such issues as:
1/ What is the absolute minimum size for a functioning tag?
2/ Where will the players come from who are both able and willing to form and "run" the proposed new tags?
3/ Do we really want to discourage existing and former players by preventing them playing in tags of their choice?

... rather than simply repeating their "gut feelings" that we need to change something and that smaller tag sizes will somehow make things better.

No answers have been forthcoming - so I must take issue with your statement that you "would yourself". Still, I again invite you (and others) to address these points.
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 01:31   #111
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Re: Alliance Size

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I made three attempts (on the first page of this thread) to get members of the "smaller tags faction" to engage in meaningful discussions on such issues as:
1/ What is the absolute minimum size for a functioning tag?
2/ Where will the players come from who are both able and willing to form and "run" the proposed new tags?
3/ Do we really want to discourage existing and former players by preventing them playing in tags of their choice?

... rather than simply repeating their "gut feelings" that we need to change something and that smaller tag sizes will somehow make things better.

No answers have been forthcoming - so I must take issue with your statement that you "would yourself". Still, I again invite you (and others) to address these points.
1) Right now, to effectively attack a decent galaxy with just your alliance you need roughly 40 members. Def is pretty much the same, unless in massive gangbangs. Lowering the defpool of an alliance will reduce the number of fortgals throughout the universe, which in turn improves the effectivity of single alliance attacks.

2) The number of returning tags this round specifically shows there are more than a few ppl willing to run tags, even if it is with a shit number of players. Obviously not all will be able to do so with the same effectivity. tbh, i think the relatively succesful returns of alliances like TGV(if only succesful for 2 rounds) and FAnG also sparked the imagination and desire in certain other playergroups to return under their own names too.

3) Do we really want to limit the number of competing alliances to 3-5? And thus limit the number of ppl actually involved in anything other than SimPA/victim of nubroidings to 200-300 players?

Does lowering the alliance limit change the way elitism tends to dominate in this game? probably not. However, by not just lowering alliance limits but also restricting the way alliances can ally one another (ie. max 1 at a time), you reduce the overall defpool of an alliance. Reducing the defpool of an alliance means gangbashes will generally have a better result. And with the increased number of involved alliances, chances of a more fluid political landscape are higher (more players, more diverse interests).

Due to the decreasing universe the days where we have 6-10 alliances running for top 3 positions are over. By decreasing the alliance size we might be able to return to the days where an alliance couldn't dominate for rounds at a time (which is pretty much all we have seen from r26 if you ask me)
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 15:21   #112
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Re: Alliance Size

Thanks for making the effort to put together some reasoned points. I might not agree with all of them but I do appreciate the effort. I'll answer the last two points first and then try to expand on the first.

2/ There's no doubt that there are a few (and it's my belief that it's only a few) people each round who think "I know, I'll put together my own tag" or "Let's resurrect Xxxxx alliance". These alliances usually last for a round or two (sometimes less) and then dissolve again. TGV is a good example. However, the people who are capable of running an alliance and willing to do so for the medium to long term are already doing so. Many of those who are capable but not willing to make the long term sacrifice now form part of the cores of the existing alliances. If we reduce the tag sizes it will not be these capable players who are suddenly looking for new homes - it will be "the rest".

3/ The number of competing alliances has always been three to five. At least I can't remember it ever having been different. (I hope that Mzyxptlk will be able to put us straight here). If we reduce the number of players who can be part of those "top 5" alliances then we're limiting "the number of ppl actually involved in anything other than SimPA/victim of nubroidings" even further.

I agree with your point that reducing the defpool that an alliance can draw on will make it easier for that alliance to be taken down but, conversely, smaller tags will mean that it will be harder to gather enough allies to make the attacks effective. I'm sure we'll agree that keeping a bloc of 3 alliances together is hard enough - increase that to 5 or 6 and it would be like trying to herd cats.

I also agree that we have seen a succession of dominant alliances since R26. It's possibly been going on for even longer than that. (Again I hope that Mzyxptlk will be able to help us with the facts). I believe that this has little or nothing to do with tag sizes but is more a failing of the HCs of the alliances which "should" have been working together to prevent it. Certainly, as HC of VGN, I always felt that it was our duty to (try to) prevent any alliance winning 3 rounds on the trot. We started with 1up and App (and failed both times IIRC) but we were almost always let down by some supposed contenders joining the other camp in return for being offered "protection" (of some kind) - rather like xVx in recent rounds.

Now - back to the matter in hand. Point 1 was in relation to the actual size of the proposed new tags. If we take your suggestion of tags being limited to 40 then (assuming that those members cast out don't simply quit) we'll need to find new homes for 139 members of (current) top ten alliances. 3 of these could be absorbed by App & Tof and 16 by DLR (although DLR has for many rounds played with a small tag - not because it can't get members but because it doesn't want to be a credible threat when the wars start).

So, on that basis we're actually only looking for three new (full) tags which, on the face of it, doesn't seem too tricky. We could certainly revive VGN to take 40 of them,

But let's examine this a little more closely. Three new tags means 3 new "command teams". I know that some will say that alliances don't need command teams these days but, given my point above about the capable players staying where they are, I think we know that the "old style" structure will be needed. So, as an absolute minimum, we'll need 3 HCs, 3 DCs (doing 8 hour stints for seven weeks might be tough but hey.....), 1 BC, 2 scanners, ..... that might be it. (We know that it won't work like that because the people with that sort of activity level will still be in the existing tags). So, before we go any further with this will those 30 people please make themselves known?

BTW - I'm well aware that I've not closed up all the loopholes in my argument but I just want to get the ball rolling towards a reasoned conclusion.
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 16:00   #113
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Re: Alliance Size

Facts? Facts? We don't need no damn facts! I got my opinion and no facts are going to convince me I'm wrong!

****ing socialists.

(The data for this is much harder to obtain than the data on tag limits and player counts (you need not just the scores of the last tick, but of the entire round) and even harder to interpret: you need to take politics into account, because if the entire top 10 teams up on Ultores all round long, and Ultores win by a 100k score margin, would you say there were 3-5 contenders? What if the top 3 is close, but the #2 and #3 give up at tick 1000, and the #1 wins with 50m score between them. Does that disqualify the others from being called contenders? Hell. Good luck even getting people to agree what the definition of the words "contender", "teamup", "to give up" and "to win" even mean.

So, completely ignoring the data, my gut says you're right: 2-4 contenders is fairly average for PA. Sometimes one alliance is clearly dominant from the start, but that's fairly rare.

Neither 1up (11, 12, 14, 17) nor Apprime (32, 34, 35, 39, 40) ever won 3 rounds in a row, by the way, if that's what you meant by "on the trot". Ultores (43, 44, 45) and Ascendancy (28, 29, 30, 31) did.)
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 16:22   #114
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Re: Alliance Size

LMAO

Nice one.
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 23:34   #115
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Re: Alliance Size

So you produce datasets from when something hasn't been tried to support the case for not trying it?... this is about as useless as that academic study stating 33 is the happiest age, or men are statistically more likely to ignore women after sex.
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Unread 29 Mar 2012, 23:46   #116
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Re: Alliance Size

Not at all. We're supporting our arguments and beliefs with actual facts rather than making wild, unsubstantiated claims.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 06:57   #117
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Re: Alliance Size

to me it rather seems, like ppl are trying to hold on from the past and hope that the good days of planetarion will somehow come back..

quite alot has changed over the year.. playerbase has changed, world around us has changed, etc, etc - the only thing that hasnt changed with the surroundings is the game itself.. thats also what has been the problem for me, when ive voiced my opinion, let it be tagsize or anything else.

why i started with this tag size thingy in the first place, was my belif that our current memberbase just can not support tags like we have atm, hence its limiting the game ALOT. If theres no real competition, then imo it should be favored or at least tryed to fix.

The most easiest thing to try out (which actually havent been tryed out yet, at least as drasticly as ive thought about it) would be the dramatic reduction of tag sizes. We all know that there are no resources to improve the game by coding new additions, etc.. the game admins also seem to have zero vision for the future of planetarion.. this all lead (at least me, im talking about my personal thoughts, anyone has the right to argue ofc) to a thought, that changing the overall gameplay from the tag`s pov, might also bring new winds to the game - and its actually managable by admins, since they dont need to code anything, just change 1 damn number in the code or something (ok i guess its at least a tad more harder :P)..

there have always been, and there always will be, counter arguments to this suggestion.. and tbh i think that both sides have their valid points, but the current situation of the game is so depressing, that every change has a very good chance to be a positive change :P

in these cases i think its not bad to bring ppl out from their comfort zone.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 08:52   #118
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Re: Alliance Size

I agree with neroon. The tag size is stupid, in fact Id be in favor of removing alliance tags alltogether.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 11:07   #119
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Re: Alliance Size

removing tags alltogether has indeed been also one of the topics so far.. and id even vouch for that, instead of just sitting around and doing replay every single round :P

removing tags alltogether does take away 1 of the main contests that we have atm in pa (who is the best group/alliance of planetarion), but its not necessarily a bad thing if it makes gal and personal ranks more important, therefore generating more interesting outcomes of the rounds (bearing in mind, we have too little memberbase to have a successful and interesting competition between alliance tags)
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 11:18   #120
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Re: Alliance Size

Probably the main thing keeping PA going is the comminuty on IRC, would removing alliances althogether destroy this and finally kill off the game?
I do agree though reducing tag sizes to 40 would make things a whole lot more interesting. What's the harm in trying this just for one round only. If it doesn't work just revert back to how it is!
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 11:26   #121
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by neroon View Post
removing tags alltogether has indeed been also one of the topics so far.. and id even vouch for that, instead of just sitting around and doing replay every single round :P
In fairness to the small-tag side of the debate, removing tags is functionally equivalent to raising the tag limit to infinity.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 12:11   #122
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In fairness to the small-tag side of the debate, removing tags is functionally equivalent to raising the tag limit to infinity.
how is that so?

if theres a tag with 178 members, then those 178 members can defend each other in the tag with reduced travel times

if theres no tags, there can be groups that have formed their special fort gals or something like that AND they will still prolly attack together, but thats about it

now another story is that if theres a tag of 178 members around, then that would mean that noone in planetarion is able to win them most probably and the tag competition does not mean anything nemore neways.. all that has been managed to do, is that this big tag will prolly rape the whole uni as they want :P

thats at least my limited thinking
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 12:13   #123
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffro View Post
Probably the main thing keeping PA going is the comminuty on IRC, would removing alliances althogether destroy this and finally kill off the game?
I do agree though reducing tag sizes to 40 would make things a whole lot more interesting. What's the harm in trying this just for one round only. If it doesn't work just revert back to how it is!

even tho i like that u like the idea of reducing tags.. even if it would happen at some point, it should definately not be a 1 round thing, as it takes more time for ppl to settle in and will take time to start working decently..

same thing with PL thingy that we went through.. just aweful mistake to bring the PL back after a round, terrible.. due to that i have no faith in pa admins nemore
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 12:25   #124
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by neroon View Post
how is that so?
Because the game is utterly inviable if players do not have the ability to organize defense. If you remove tags, you must also reduce defense eta by 1, across the board.

It was this way in that other game, and it would surprise me if it wasn't the case pre-PAX as well, considering that other game was a shameless rip-off. I didn't play PA before PAX, though, so many someone who has can enlighten us.

[edit] I asked an expert: I was wrong. Apparently PIA wasn't a totally 1:1 copy of early PA, no defense eta advantage, you could only defend fi/co incs from cluster (or parallel) and galaxy. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement: PA now needs a defense eta advantage, either just intag or, lacking tags, universally.

[edit2] I asked another expert: fi had a lower eta than co, and there were no fi pods. So even without tags, without cluser or parallel advantages and without draining your gal def, you could always defend against getting roided for at least 1 tick. Fleetcatches would've been much more potent than they are now, though. Good intel would be required to defend against those.

Revisiting my initial statement: I think removing the notion of tags from the game would be a reasonable solution to both the issue of tags and the issue of the stats being overly defensive. Additionally, with 5 races and 5 pod classes, balancing should be much easier than with 5 races and 6 pod classes.

That said, I would probably not remove tags entirely, because they provide all kinds of useful functions ingame. You just need to remove the tag rankings and the eta advantage. I would also re-add cluster or parallel etas.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 30 Mar 2012 at 12:42.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 19:27   #125
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Re: Alliance Size

I miss those stats and the lean towards minor tweaks between rounds, rather then all new stats

After R4 in para/cluster fleet catches were extremely potent, especially against the smaller alliances that were spread out more. R4 with the larger player base allowed competing para/cluster alliances to be pretty successful score/size wise and very successful in getting new people to enjoy the game.


I'm of the opinion smaller tags will not fix anything. Though having played most of my PA career pre-PAX may be clouding my judgement

I had just as much fun playing in a smaller "underdog" alliance as I did playing in an "elite" alliance back then. In all honesty I think the concept of in game tags is the baser cause of the stagnation, not the tag size.

The occasional draft round might be interesting though
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 19:57   #126
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Re: Alliance Size

I have yet to see any evidence that either lowering or raising tag limits will be benificial for the game. Conversely, I have yet to see any that either of those options are detrimental to the game.

For me, the attraction of the 'remove tags' option is that it cannot be just that one change, you have to adapt the game to the new situation. See my previous post for some of the things I feel would have to change.

While those changes would involve more than setting the number 70 to either 35 or 140, they are very doable. I would be surprised if the code for clusters didn't still exist somewhere, telling the stats maker 'no fi pods and lower fi eta' is a piece of cake, and removing tag rankings and intag eta advantages just involves removing stuff, not adding any.

Now, will removing tags be the magic bullet to revitalize PA? No. There is no single part of the game that prevents us from doubling or tripling the player base. It is the game as a whole that needs to be revamped, and that cannot be done without a significantly higher investment than half a dozen people talking shit on PS (that's us) and a single paid part-time code monkey. What it might do is convince some old timers to play a couple of rounds, and make the game a little more interesting for the existing player base. What more can we ask for?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 21:00   #127
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Re: Alliance Size

A long time ago I suggested some sort of alliance handicapping to make smaller alliances competitive and leveling the playing field this would be dynamic and should be dynamic as alliances gain and lose members. this could be expanded to handicap all players and this would provide a level playing field and as planets improve and alliances improve their handicap would go down . This encourages the smaller alliances to work harder to improve and not get bashed so much by the bigger alliances. and maybe to encourage people to join new and small alliances maybe there should be some alliance bonus for joining a small alliance be it resources or some tactical advantage to warrant considering joining one ....

SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.... LESS TALK, MORE ACTION

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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 21:43   #128
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Re: Alliance Size

In bright yellow? Really?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 30 Mar 2012, 22:34   #129
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Re: Alliance Size

got your attention didn't it?



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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 00:31   #130
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Re: Alliance Size

I responded to the aesthetics of your post, not its content. Is that really what you were after?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 00:41   #131
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffro View Post
Probably the main thing keeping PA going is the comminuty on IRC, would removing alliances althogether destroy this and finally kill off the game?
I do agree though reducing tag sizes to 40 would make things a whole lot more interesting. What's the harm in trying this just for one round only. If it doesn't work just revert back to how it is!
Actually, having no alliance ingame forces you to communicate much more with your galaxy (and cluster or paralel) then is currently the case. Atm ppl just expect their alliance to take care of the incomings they get. Also with tags there is more anonimity in the alliance imo. Finally, the lack of tags doesnt mean that there wont be alliances, it only removes the emphasis away from them. There used to be alliances of all sizes and shapes before tags were ever part of the game. Alliance ranking was determined by who hadthe top ranking galaxy and planets.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 02:21   #132
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Re: Alliance Size

We spent many of the early rounds with no in-game tags. Does anyone really think that this meant there were no alliances back then?
Mzyxptlk has is it right when he says that removing tags from the game is the same as raising the tag limit to infinity. Trying to prevent this by not adding an "across the board" eta advantage for defence would mean that defence would become impossible for everyone and, as I've often stated, it is defence that forms the "teamwork and community" part of this game. Without that PA will die even faster.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 02:23   #133
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Re: Alliance Size

To those posters who think that trying this smaller tag idea for a round (or two) "can't hurt" - please try to think about what you're suggesting. You shouldn't break something just to see if it will work better. You need to know (or at least have an idea) of what will happen before taking such risks.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 03:05   #134
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Re: Alliance Size

its kind of funny nobody has thought maybe beta testing the various
suggestions should be the proper venue to apply new suggestions without endangering the game, instead of the always present crying and moaning about the various suggestions. This is the proper use of the beta format or is there some just stubbornness to innovation and change.and worry about the status quo of big alliances . If we can beta test stats we can beta test suggestions and new ideas.



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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 04:02   #135
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Re: Alliance Size

You can't test the effect of reducing tag limits in beta. I'll leave you to figure out why.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 04:12   #136
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Re: Alliance Size

you certainly give a beta decent run time get trend and with the comments of the beta players. both sides. I'm sure will have comments and with the data obtained be able to gauge the effect

There is no such thing as a beta test that dosent provide some better info than opinion based on feelings and biases .


You have to start somewhere not just responses based on personal opinions.not backed by any solid facts


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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 09:27   #137
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Re: Alliance Size

"And some fell on stony ground".

Let's try that again but, this time, ask yourself how many people take part in the beta tests.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 15:12   #138
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Re: Alliance Size

about the same as do now ,then let me ask in return does that mean the beta testing of stats is any less valid because a small % of the actual player base plays beta yet we use it every round to fine tune stats? I see no logic to your argument

TESTING IS ALWAYS WARRANTED

AND USEFUL IN IMPLEMENTING NEW IDEAS

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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 15:37   #139
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Re: Alliance Size

A test in a game with 10 people does not validate ideas for a game of 1000. You may as well test new game features on a slighly over-ripe banana.
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Unread 31 Mar 2012, 16:40   #140
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Re: Alliance Size

Especially when the test is to decide whether to reduce ten tags from a max size of 80 each to 40 each.

Sorry to impersonate Captain Obvious here but it's for the sake of the painfully slow amongst us (hi abaladjay).
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 15:24   #141
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Re: Alliance Size

ok then use havoc since it has a bigger base and it really wont hurt the game

you at least can get a trend and people can try it out


Duh!


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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 16:40   #142
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Re: Alliance Size

If at first you don't succeed, fail fail again.

Still, the "Duh!" part of your post made sense.
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 17:38   #143
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaladjay View Post


you at least can get a trend and people can try it out





Wizard

Makes sense, tbh.

Introduce new "potential" changes in havoc, announce it well ahead, like 14 days before round end.

It being structual changes, and/or shipstats govs etc.

would possibly give some feedback instead of this guessing contest.

And emo crew wouldn't go here on forums and post OMG FAIL PA TEAM, why do you always implement crap stuff without even asking us first!!!

Bonus gain: It would also mean that I would play havoc instead of deleting my planet.
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 18:41   #144
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Re: Alliance Size

havoc is an environment in which tags are almost entirely meaningless. We'd still get more useful data from the banana.
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 19:12   #145
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Re: Alliance Size

as usual , excuses, not solutions ... Same old tired crap


why not be part of the solution than part of the problem. ?

Or is that too hard..


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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 19:13   #146
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Re: Alliance Size

well.. well..

tbh..

havoc is actually a good example for things concerning alliances, at least in some manner..

The times that ive given a lil effort for havoc (login once in a while, try to send a fleet or 2), ive always thought that this is exactly the future of planetarion - which is 1 alliance having the biggest part of active players and just farming the others.. whenever ure starting to get somewhere, ure at once taken down again by some bullies.. and u actually cant do much, since there are no ppl left anymore for u to side (it actually takes too much effort neways)

just a thought that i just had seeing the thread`s name and word "Havoc"..

this, a bit, also goes for the idea of planetarion with 150ppl alliances
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 19:32   #147
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Re: Alliance Size

We're more likely to see 150ppl PA before we see 150ppl alliances again. :-(
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Unread 1 Apr 2012, 19:37   #148
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaladjay View Post
as usual , excuses, not solutions ... Same old tired crap


why not be part of the solution than part of the problem. ?

Or is that too hard..


wizard
You don't seem to even understand what "old crap" we're taling about. Why don't you try to find out what problem we're discussing before you proffer your "solutions"?

Or is that too hard?

BTW - I've finished baiting you now - you're clearly too slow to even recognise why you're so far off the mark. The idea of testing potential changes in beta is usually a good one - it's just that this particular issue is an exception.
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Unread 2 Apr 2012, 20:53   #149
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Re: Alliance Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
havoc is an environment in which tags are almost entirely meaningless. We'd still get more useful data from the banana.
Agreed, well maybe not the banana, alternatively it would be a something in between - i.e speeded round or the like.

If neither beta/havoc or doing a real round with the change is prefered, we're sort of running out of options cercerning this issue....
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Unread 19 May 2012, 00:42   #150
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Re: Alliance Size

So... heads still buried in sand?
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