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Unread 5 Apr 2003, 23:29   #1
Tactitus
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
they can still declare that all us-soldiers are terrorists or hostile figthers or whatever and after that completly ignore the geneva convention
Yes, they could declare that; but on what basis? Are we deliberately targeting Iraqi civilians? Are we mistreating Iraqi prisoners? Or maybe they just think they shouldn't apply to Americans?

If they don't consider themselves bound by the geneva conventions (which they signed), for whatever reason(s), that's their choice. But they should also know that, if/when they lose, we will hold those responsible accountable for their actions and judge them accordingly. If they have a compelling reason why they should be exempt from the rules of war, I'm sure the Tribunal would be happy to hear it.
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Unread 5 Apr 2003, 23:51   #2
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Originally posted by Judge
Dont forget that the same applies to US and UK forces, if they act outside of the Geneva convention, then they too, can or should be held responsible.
Yes, of course. And I should add that all of the combatants in this war (Iraq and coalition) have formally stated that they fully intend to honor the geneva conventions.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 00:33   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by IndiaSour


I wasnt aware bush was off killing people. Does he do it Hitler style (concentration camps) or Stalin style (just shoots them)?

Bush isn't killing civilians (a war crime) but the people under his power are.


go and research the 'daisy cutter'
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 02:55   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkehpimp
Bush isn't killing civilians (a war crime) but the people under his power are.
Killing civilians is not, in itself, a war crime. If one soldier shoots at another soldier and misses, and kills a civilian, that's an accident--not a war crime. If a soldier kills a civilian who's threatening him, that's self-defense--not a war crime. Conversely, deliberately using civilians as shields for military forces may be a war crime, even if no civilians are killed.
Quote:
go and research the 'daisy cutter'
The assertion that thermobaric weapons are a violation of the geneva conventions (1977 protocol) is tenuous, at best.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 04:21   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Killing civilians is not, in itself, a war crime. If one soldier shoots at another soldier and misses, and kills a civilian, that's an accident--not a war crime. If a soldier kills a civilian who's threatening him, that's self-defense--not a war crime. Conversely, deliberately using civilians as shields for military forces may be a war crime, even if no civilians are killed.

The assertion that thermobaric weapons are a violation of the geneva conventions (1977 protocol) is tenuous, at best.
well said
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 05:46   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkehpimp
Bush isn't killing civilians (a war crime) but the people under his power are.
And again... their doing this how...?

A little more proof and alot less accusations.

Quote:
go and research the 'daisy cutter'
I know full well what a daisy cutter is. I also know its what they consider a "conventional" weapon.

I seriously suggest you research it.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 06:41   #7
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it doesn't worry you in anyway that humans are using weapons like these on other humans??
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 09:17   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Yes, they could declare that; but on what basis? Are we deliberately targeting Iraqi civilians? Are we mistreating Iraqi prisoners? Or maybe they just think they shouldn't apply to Americans?

If they don't consider themselves bound by the geneva conventions (which they signed), for whatever reason(s), that's their choice. But they should also know that, if/when they lose, we will hold those responsible accountable for their actions and judge them accordingly. If they have a compelling reason why they should be exempt from the rules of war, I'm sure the Tribunal would be happy to hear it.
on what basis are the taliban-prisoners in cuba declared 'hostile fighters'?
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 19:00   #9
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Someone posted (on another forum) that the US has not declared war upon Iraq. I don't know if it's correct, but it could backfire the term 'illegal combatant'.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 19:32   #10
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Re: War Crimes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Judge

Your country has.

1) An Army of Conscripts, and poorly trained troops.
2) Outdated equipment
3) Armoured vehicles that are about as effective as a cardboard box
4) No Airforce worth a damn.
5) No chance of re-supply from anywhere.
hey i think you forgot

6) Loads of weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapons etc etc

Or has the "does iraq have WMD" question just been thrown out the window entirely.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 19:36   #11
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The last time the US declared war was, what, WWII? It didn't stop them in the last four or five "armed conflicts" they fought in.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 20:10   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkehpimp
it doesn't worry you in anyway that humans are using weapons like these on other humans??
Shoot a person in the head. Drop a daisy cutter on them. Either way they wont know what hit them.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 20:14   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Killing civilians is not, in itself, a war crime. If one soldier shoots at another soldier and misses, and kills a civilian, that's an accident--not a war crime. If a soldier kills a civilian who's threatening him, that's self-defense--not a war crime. Conversely, deliberately using civilians as shields for military forces may be a war crime, even if no civilians are killed.

The assertion that thermobaric weapons are a violation of the geneva conventions (1977 protocol) is tenuous, at best.
True. But shooting someone with a rifle will only kill him; daisy cutter kill people a bit quicker, and its far more likely civilans will die from one of those.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 20:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
on what basis are the taliban-prisoners in cuba declared 'hostile fighters'?
I believe their classification is "unlawful combatants," and in the case of the taliban prisoners, it's on the basis that they were not organized as an army and did not wear uniforms or insignia.
Quote:
Originally posted by ggGGgg
Someone posted (on another forum) that the US has not declared war upon Iraq. I don't know if it's correct, but it could backfire the term 'illegal combatant'.
The geneva conventions are not dependent upon a formal declaration of war.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
True. But shooting someone with a rifle will only kill him; daisy cutter kill people a bit quicker, and its far more likely civilans will die from one of those.
I think that would depend entirely upon where you used the weapons. A rifle used in a crowded city is probably more likely to kill civilians than a "daisy cutter" used in a remote area where only soldiers are present.
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Unread 6 Apr 2003, 20:30   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I believe their classification is "unlawful combatants," and in the case of the taliban prisoners, it's on the basis that they were not organized as an army and did not wear uniforms or insignia.
"brilliance"
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 00:20   #16
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do you not think the makeup of the question changes substantially if you presume iraq has wmd's?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 01:27   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
do you not think the makeup of the question changes substantially if you presume iraq has wmd's?
No

Read the question (1st post) and further qualified later.

It has nothing to do with wmd's or the actions taken by Iraq, it is to do with sending your forces to there certain death?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 03:14   #18
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:08   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I believe their classification is "unlawful combatants," and in the case of the taliban prisoners, it's on the basis that they were not organized as an army and did not wear uniforms or insignia.
perhaps the US should read the Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war then.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:23   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
perhaps the US should read the Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war then.
they're not POWs tho i thought? wasn't the point that if they didn't declare them as POWs, and kept them off American soil, they would be able to deny them of thier rights entirely?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:39   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkehpimp
they're not POWs tho i thought? wasn't the point that if they didn't declare them as POWs, and kept them off American soil, they would be able to deny them of thier rights entirely?
the point is, they should be.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:42   #22
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Originally posted by Radical Edward
the point is, they should be.
No, the point is, they are not!
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:48   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
No, the point is, they are not!
taking a brief look at what tactitcus said:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I believe their classification is "unlawful combatants," and in the case of the taliban prisoners, it's on the basis that they were not organized as an army and did not wear uniforms or insignia.
that basis is completely flawed when one reads the convention.

hence my point was that they should have been POWs
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 09:59   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward


that basis is completely flawed when one reads the convention.

hence my point was that they should have been POWs
In which case they should have been sent home long ago. Can you take POWs if War hasn't been formally declared? I seem to remember some people flying some planes into some buildings and the US being pissed off at that and going and killing a bunch of people in an attempt to find the guy who did it. Which they never did, then they left and moved onto something else, namely Iraq.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:01   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
taking a brief look at what tactitcus said:
that basis is completely flawed when one reads the convention.
hence my point was that they should have been POWs
They are unlawful combatants. Civilians fighting a war.

If Elf(French company) attacked Big Ben in London, British troops invaded Paris and took Elf executives captive, would you still call them POW's?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:02   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkehpimp
Can you take POWs if War hasn't been formally declared?

Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:04   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
If Elf(French company) attacked Big Ben in London, British troops invaded Paris and took Elf executives captive, would you still call them POW's?
Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war

who are ELF?

and it would be a british invasion of france.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:07   #28
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They should not be POW:s, they are POW:s, just mistreated such. Unilaterally declaring they are not does not make it true, as it is not the place of the captor to define their status. That negates the whole point of the Geneva convention. By that logic, Saddam could just declare the whole lot invading Iraq war criminals (which in a sense they are) and execute every POW he gets his hands on.

The USA is trying to play the old jedi mind-trick on the world, thinking they can get away with repeating "These are not the POW:s you are looking for) over and over, but strangely somehow it is not working.

The US should just withdraw from the convention as they have done with so many other other international treaties lately.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:07   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war

who are ELF?

and it would be a british invasion of france.
However far off the point you went, in terms, you are redefining the entire goal of the American Forces in Afghanistan.

Congratulations!
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:08   #30
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However far off the point you went, in terms, you are redefining the entire goal of the American Forces in Afghanistan.
what the hell are you on about?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:10   #31
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Whats the point of them being in the UN as well? all they do is Veto stuff, and then ignore the UN completely when other countries threaton to Veto something they really want.


Why don't they just get rid of Vetos?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:11   #32
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Dunno what he is on about, but the USA itself still keeps redefining it's goal for the action in Afganistan, how are we suppoused to keep up anyway?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:14   #33
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Originally posted by Radical Edward
what the hell are you on about?
Let's start all over.

An organisation based in France makes a 'terrorist attack' on civilian targets in England, British forces invades France to take it's leaders captive as France arn't capable of doing it themself. These leaders are brought to a sone where international laws are unvalid.

POW's or Unlawful combatants?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:21   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Let's start all over.

An organisation based in France makes a 'terrorist attack' on civilian targets in England, British forces invades France to take it's leaders captive as France arn't capable of doing it themself. These leaders are brought to a sone where international laws are unvalid.

POW's or Unlawful combatants?
Al Qaeda was alightly more than merely "based in Afghanistan"
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:26   #35
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The americans refused to join the international war crimes court.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:28   #36
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Al Qaeda was alightly more than merely "based in Afghanistan"
Evading my point once again.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:33   #37
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Evading my point once again.
I am not going to argue on the basis of a flawed analogy.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 10:39   #38
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I am not going to argue on the basis of a flawed analogy.
Your pointing out a hypothesis; wheter the Taliban soldiers located in Cuba are held as prisoners of war and as such makes the US in breach of the Geneva Convention.

I find it amusing that these should be threated as lawful combatans, due to their nature of fighting. They are not fighting a war against military targets, but a war to get attention and bring suffering to civilians.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 11:58   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Your pointing out a hypothesis; wheter the Taliban soldiers located in Cuba are held as prisoners of war and as such makes the US in breach of the Geneva Convention.

I find it amusing that these should be threated as lawful combatans, due to their nature of fighting. They are not fighting a war against military targets, but a war to get attention and bring suffering to civilians.
the taleban were merely defending their country/regieme. don't get them mixed up with Al Qaeda. nevertheless, even the taleban should have been detained as POWs, until of course their involvement in other crimes became apparent, in which case they can be tried on those grounds.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:01   #40
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the taleban were merely defending their country/regieme. don't get them mixed up with Al Qaeda. nevertheless, even the taleban should have been detained as POWs, until of course their involvement in other crimes became apparent, in which case they can be tried on those grounds.
They are funded by terrorists and harbour terrorists. This has been made very clear by the US officials.

It's close to claiming the IRA was fighting a lawfull war against the brits.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:07   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
They are funded by terrorists and harbour terrorists. This has been made very clear by the US officials.

It's close to claiming the IRA was fighting a lawfull war against the brits.
I was referring mostly to the troops, the actual people who were captured. I agree that the regieme itself had a heavy involvement with Al Qaeda, but even so, the people themselves, when captured as a result of that conflict should have remained POWs until such at time that they could be shown to be involved in illegal terrorist activities, in which case they should be suitably punished.... not shoved in some camp with questionable legal status, until their innocence was later determined, and then released.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:09   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
the taleban were merely defending their country/regieme
Exactly Mr Edward sir! It's time people here saw sense, I thank you!

The US decision to hold Taleban (a political organisation, not the fanatical terrorist killing machine we're supposed to think of) as "hostile combatants" is based on very, very shaky logic. Furthermore, they held them outside of their own country, so that the prisoners weren't granted even the basic rights enjoyed in the US penal system.

You've all seen the pictures - you think it's RIGHT that they are held in cages, chained up in the open? You think it's right that John Lindh got 20 years, for legitimately defending Afghanistan against the coalition invasion? What RIGHT does the US et al have to enter a sovereign state, to pursue somebody that they are after? How would the US react if Russia or China pursued the countless Russian/Chinese criminals hiding there?

I'm not anti-US, I just wish they'd stop proclaiming themself the world's moral saviour, whilst at the same time they commit countless attrocities themself.

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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:17   #43
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You've all seen the pictures - you think it's RIGHT that they are held in cages, chained up in the open? You think it's right that John Lindh got 20 years, for legitimately defending Afghanistan against the coalition invasion? What RIGHT does the US et al have to enter a sovereign state, to pursue somebody that they are after? How would the US react if Russia or China pursued the countless Russian/Chinese criminals hiding there?
Taliban is a fundamentalistic organisation run by Al Queda operatives. If you knew how Afghanistan was run you would see that there is nothing such as a National Guard or Army. There are several 'warlords' who occupy regions of the country. They are at war with eachother aswell. Ask the North Alliance if the US takedown of Taliban was welcome.

Did you know that:

- the largest export of heroin comes from Afghanistan?
- the second largest is former Jugoslavia?
- Al Queda funds its operation through Narcotics?
- after US bombed Afghanistan the prices of Heroin went ballistic in Europe?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:19   #44
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I was referring mostly to the troops, the actual people who were captured. I agree that the regieme itself had a heavy involvement with Al Qaeda, but even so, the people themselves, when captured as a result of that conflict should have remained POWs until such at time that they could be shown to be involved in illegal terrorist activities, in which case they should be suitably punished.... not shoved in some camp with questionable legal status, until their innocence was later determined, and then released.
So the 'soldiers' of Taliban should be excused on what basis really? Following orders?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:21   #45
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So the 'soldiers' of Taliban should be excused on what basis really? Following orders?
what exactly had they done wrong? I am not saying that they should be pardoned of all crimes that they have committed, I am merely saying that they should keep their status as POWs until they have been shown to actually do something criminal, other than shooting someone who is, rightly or wrongly, invading their country.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:24   #46
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this link: http://www.usaforicc.org/facts_america-icc.html may interest you.
Quote:
President Bill Clinton signed the Rome Treaty on December 31, 2000, but his administration was never supportive. President George W. Bush announced the withdrawal of the U.S.'s signature on May 6, 2002. Under-Secretary Mark Grossman, speaking on behalf of the Bush Administration announced that the United States was no longer legally bound by its signature to the Rome Treaty, in essence ‘unsigning’ the treaty.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:26   #47
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what exactly had they done wrong? I am not saying that they should be pardoned of all crimes that they have committed, I am merely saying that they should keep their status as POWs until they have been shown to actually do something criminal, other than shooting someone who is, rightly or wrongly, invading their country.
As you said, right or wrong, it's not very representative for Afghanistan. You could not possibly claim they are the rightfull protectors of their country when most of the natives wants to reject them?
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:27   #48
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oh and this one is a little older but:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...aties-usat.htm
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:32   #49
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Quote:
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As you said, right or wrong, it's not very representative for Afghanistan. You could not possibly claim they are the rightfull protectors of their country when most of the natives wants to reject them?
I am not saying that they are the rightful protectors, just as the fedayeen are nor rightful protectors of Iraq. I am merely saying, that until such a time as they can be deemed as having done something illegal, then they should be treated as POWs. once it has been shown that they have done something bad, then bring the full weight of the law upon them, but not before. It is hypocritical to adopt a policy of innocent until proven guilty in your own country, and then not apply it to people who you capture.
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Unread 7 Apr 2003, 12:34   #50
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Taliban is a fundamentalistic organisation run by Al Queda operatives ... There are several 'warlords' who occupy regions of the country ... Ask the North Alliance if the US takedown of Taliban was welcome.
1. So, the Taleban is a fundamentalist religion-based political party? So what? The Taleban was/is not inherently terrorist, it was merely associated with Al Queda. But then, huge chunks of the US are directly funding the IRA. The Taleban was actually fairly representative of a lot of Afghans - i.e. it was the legitimate Afghan government.

2. I suppose you could liken these to "Cantons", such as those found in Switzerland? (Reaching, I admit) but Afghanistan was made up of disparate groups, broadly combining centrally as a unified (if fractuous) Afghanistan. So what?

3. The Northern Alliance is made up of some of the above warlords. They distanced themselves from the central Taleban, and sided with the invaders in order to advance their own interests. So what?

Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Did you know that:

1 - the largest export of heroin comes from Afghanistan?
2 - the second largest is former Jugoslavia?
3 - Al Queda funds its operation through Narcotics?
4 - after US bombed Afghanistan the prices of Heroin went ballistic in Europe?
1&2 - Source? Afaik, Afghanistan is one of the largest, Yugoslavia (as it was) was merely a distribution center, akin to Morroco for example.

3 - As does the IRA. Let's bomb New York and Belfast!

4 - After the US bombed Iraq, the prices of Oil went ballastic in Europe.

So what?

In what way do your "reasons" justify holding human beings in cages that they can't stand up in, in the OUTDOORS, chained up, blindfolded and gagged?

M.
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