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Unread 28 May 2003, 23:07   #1
huh
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Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Is this really going to work? Okay, cutting taxes will in theory make people spend more, but after the amount of hoo-hah over the pensions etc, are people really going to just throw all that money away? I'd have thought people would try and save a lot more now for the future. Also, such a big deficit... I know it's still less than the GDP of the US but still, that won't be incredibly easy to pay off. I can see this all causing even more problems.
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Unread 28 May 2003, 23:18   #2
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if your deficit was the size of your gdp you would be in a **** state.

After iraq consumer confidence in us is way up so in theory they should spend a lot more. plus these tax cuts will please most so ensure re-election.

They cant handle the tax cuts in my opinion, education was suffering before now its going to suck ass.

but its not our decision, just dont buy american stock or exports and help them sink quicker
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Unread 29 May 2003, 00:24   #3
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US consumers are running average debt around 120% of their yearly income, so i'd say they'll spend the money.

It's like a house of cards without the solidity.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 02:53   #4
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his tax-plans dont make any sence at all. im mean, if even rich people complain that they would pay too little taxes after that reform, there most likely is something wrong.
if you make the rich richer all the time, some day there will be noone to consume and the rich become poor or invest their money elsewhere.
deficit-spending might actually work, if the money is invested in something usefull, but you always have to remember that sooner or later youll have to pay it back and the costs for the interest will reduce the flexibility of the next years.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 03:06   #5
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Exclamation Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by huh
Is this really going to work? Okay, cutting taxes will in theory make people spend more, but after the amount of hoo-hah over the pensions etc, are people really going to just throw all that money away?
If by "throw all that money away" you mean "spend all that money" then--basically--yes. But whether people spend it on consumer goods or invest it (in bank accounts or securities), the money is still being more productive than anything the government is likely to do with it.
Quote:
I'd have thought people would try and save a lot more now for the future.
Saving is basically a myth. You can either invest it or spend it; and with interest rates at historic lows and the securities markets down, spending it is not an altogether unattractive option.

Of course, I'll probably invest my refund; but then I'm wealthy.
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Also, such a big deficit... I know it's still less than the GDP of the US but still, that won't be incredibly easy to pay off. I can see this all causing even more problems.
Hm, people have been saying that since Reagan.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 03:10   #6
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Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

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Originally posted by Tactitus
Hm, people have been saying that since Reagan.
Nice strong economy you've got there guys!
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Unread 29 May 2003, 03:38   #7
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Exclamation Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Nice strong economy you've got there guys!
Thanks. I think the fundamentals are good.

Beyond that, I think you have to measure a nation's economy over a period of decades. Anything shorter and you may be confused by short-lived phenomena--like a recession.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 07:40   #8
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Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
If by "throw all that money away" you mean "spend all that money" then--basically--yes. But whether people spend it on consumer goods or invest it (in bank accounts or securities), the money is still being more productive than anything the government is likely to do with it.
whats the goverment doing with the money? as you said correctly you can either save or spend the money, its the same wiht the goverment. there simply is no other choice.
however, the goverment isnt as dependent on the current economical conditions as private consumers are, it can spend the money in a way that might increase consumption or investment.
in the current situation in the us, i would try to give more money to those people who spend their money on consumption (to stimulate economical growth). as far as i know, bush is doing the exact opposite.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 07:57   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
But whether people spend it on consumer goods or invest it (in bank accounts or securities), the money is still being more productive than anything the government is likely to do with it.
I don't understand that. I can see why politically (or morally) it's better for people to have control of their own finances (they know their own affairs, etc) - but why more productive? Or did you mean productive as in more likely to produce effective results for the individuals spending?

If the government spends $10bn on horse manure, I don't see how that's less producitve than ten million tax payers spending a thousand bucks each on TVs, or whatever else. Don't get me wrong, obviously the latter is more desirable, but I'm not sure where productivity comes into it.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 08:17   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I don't understand that. I can see why politically (or morally) it's better for people to have control of their own finances (they know their own affairs, etc) - but why more productive? Or did you mean productive as in more likely to produce effective results for the individuals spending?

If the government spends $10bn on horse manure, I don't see how that's less producitve than ten million tax payers spending a thousand bucks each on TVs, or whatever else. Don't get me wrong, obviously the latter is more desirable, but I'm not sure where productivity comes into it.
6 entries found for productive.
Economics. Of or involved in the creation of goods and services to produce wealth or value.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 08:18   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
6 entries found for productive.
Economics. Of or involved in the creation of goods and services to produce wealth or value.
High tech goods++
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Unread 29 May 2003, 09:11   #12
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Most people believe that Bush's tax cuts are ill conceived and that the money won't be got back simply by having an improved economy. But hey, Bush knows what he's doing...... right?
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Unread 29 May 2003, 09:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
6 entries found for productive.
Economics. Of or involved in the creation of goods and services to produce wealth or value.
How does that answer my question? No more wealth is "produced" in either example, as far as I can see. Sure, you can argue the TV industries are more dynamic so therefore it's better they get the money than some horse manure salesmen but this doesn't necessarily seem to be a given.

The only argument I can think of is that individuals will better know where to spend the money to produce the maximum results (in terms of investment or spending) than the government. But even then, is that likely to yield more production? The horse manure salesmen are just as likely to spend or invest their money than the TV companies (and this spending/investment is mnore likely to be domestic, for what that's worth). The only thing that matters is that certain spendings encourage "wasteful" economic activity (e.g. tobacco growing) - but that's purely subjective.

I don't really care either way tbh, there's moral reasons for this, but I'm wondering on the economic concerns.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 09:22   #14
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I know nothing about economics but I'm genuinely interested. I get dividends from shares every so often but I leave my money to my dad to invest. I'd like to start investing money myself once im outta uni and I was wondering if there's any particularly good informative sites running through the basics of how it works.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 12:21   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
How does that answer my question? No more wealth is "produced" in either example, as far as I can see. Sure, you can argue the TV industries are more dynamic so therefore it's better they get the money than some horse manure salesmen but this doesn't necessarily seem to be a given.
Bush isn't cutting back on government spending/revenue and merely displacing it to the private sector. He is cutting back on revenue from taxes and replacing it with revenue from borrowing. The money borrowed will be paid back through the mega big stimulus that the economy will receive thereby giving the government more tax money.

That's the theory anyway.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 12:53   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Bush isn't cutting back on government spending/revenue and merely displacing it to the private sector.
I was responding to Tact's point about government spending is less productive than private spending, not the plans in particular.

Borrowing needs to come from somewhere though, and I'm not in a position to comment on the effect of drawing on (generally) foriegn capital.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 12:59   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Bush isn't cutting back on government spending/revenue and merely displacing it to the private sector. He is cutting back on revenue from taxes and replacing it with revenue from borrowing. The money borrowed will be paid back through the mega big stimulus that the economy will receive thereby giving the government more tax money.

That's the theory anyway.
im wondering how much sence it makes to make the rich richer.
(this is pretty intresting: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003May19.html )
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Unread 29 May 2003, 13:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I was responding to Tact's point about government spending is less productive than private spending, not the plans in particular.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Borrowing needs to come from somewhere though, and I'm not in a position to comment on the effect of drawing on (generally) foriegn capital.
If you can pay it back then fine. If not, then hello IMF
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Unread 29 May 2003, 13:24   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
How does that answer my question? No more wealth is "produced" in either example, as far as I can see. Sure, you can argue the TV industries are more dynamic so therefore it's better they get the money than some horse manure salesmen but this doesn't necessarily seem to be a given.

The only argument I can think of is that individuals will better know where to spend the money to produce the maximum results (in terms of investment or spending) than the government. But even then, is that likely to yield more production? The horse manure salesmen are just as likely to spend or invest their money than the TV companies (and this spending/investment is mnore likely to be domestic, for what that's worth). The only thing that matters is that certain spendings encourage "wasteful" economic activity (e.g. tobacco growing) - but that's purely subjective.

I don't really care either way tbh, there's moral reasons for this, but I'm wondering on the economic concerns.
Well, income tax is particularly bad since it makes otherwise efficient transactions inefficient, see pages like
http://siliconisle.com/taxes.html.

For the macroeconomics/microeconomics synergy, ok, you can tax people and spend that money, and depending on the way you tax it might not be too devastating. You're considering taking money off people who would otherwise buy televisions and instead their money is going towards manure. If you're raising the point that people don't spend wisely then fine, it's true, but you really need to consider whether the government would spend the money better. Consumerism is a big issue but you seem to almost be suggesting that buying stuff is pointless. Do you know the subjective theory of value? (I don't like it btw, but you're asking for economics)

David D. Friedman has done some excellent exposition of economics and law, and efficiency in particular. He has a couple of books online.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 13:25   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tobe
if your deficit was the size of your gdp you would be in a **** state.

After iraq consumer confidence in us is way up so in theory they should spend a lot more. plus these tax cuts will please most so ensure re-election.

Currently the US deficit is around 2/3rd of the GDP. Is that so much better?

Also the tax cuts apparently benefit the rich mostly, which will not boost the economy as much. After all, if you've already got plenty of cash left over, anything more is just going to be added to the big pile and not spent. It would be much better to apply more tax to the rich, and lower taxes for the middle class.
Middle class spending is what drives most domestic economies, and the US is no exception.

In my view the US should put way more effort into expanding their middle class, but apparently new weapons programs take precedence over education.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 13:41   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Pentagon inventions/discoveries:

Aeronautics
Computers
Internet
Robotics
Atomic energy


Government expenditure > private enterprise
lol ??!?!

Aeronautics -- from DaVinci onwards. Even if you take the first actual flight as your starting point, I wasnt aware that the Wright Brothers worked for the Pentagon??

Computers -- the Analytical Engine by Babbage, 19th century. The first actual transistor-based computer was created by the university of Manchester.

Internet -- Several claimants, including Mr Spellingwonder himself.

Robotics -- Early 19th century, France. A 'mechanized loom' was made by someone whose name I can't remember, which worked with puch-cards etc.

Atomic Energy -- Marie Curie anyone?


Now some of these might be open to debate, which I am not going to be a part of, but just jotting down these 5 terms and claiming 'IT WAS THE PENTAGON WE R0X0R' is beyond retarded.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 13:51   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fifth_teletubbie
Currently the US deficit is around 2/3rd of the GDP. Is that so much better?
The US budget deficit is only 3% of GDP at the moment.
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This is actually pretty low, 3% is the limit set in Euroland. The danger is though that it will rise if Bush's tax plans go ahead and the economy does not improve as much as he thinks it will. Some people think that the deficit could possibly reach as high as 10% of GDP. Bear in mind that 6% is the highest it has ever been.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:15   #23
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Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue

I shall state the point for your benefit, don't dissmiss the role of the government in the economy, or the merits of public expenditure, most of the great technological achievements of the last century were products of government funded research rather than the invisible hand.
Don't dismiss the role of international war in bringing us great technological developments like atom bombs!
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:17   #24
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The computer was invented by someone working for British Intelligence.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:19   #25
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Originally posted by Proteus
The computer was invented by someone working for British Intelligence.
Mr. Turing, I presume
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:23   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
Mr. Turing, I presume
I can't remember who it was exactly.

Turing cracked the Enigma code, IIRC, but I can't remember if he invented the computer that did it.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:23   #27
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Mr. Turing, I presume
Don't forget the role of anti-gay laws in bringing us computers!
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:37   #28
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Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
It's not that war in and of its self is responsible for spurts of inventiveness, but rather it is a good excuse to pour billions of tax dollars in to grandiose sci-fi style projects.
Right. Now does the fact that government spending got a man on the moon really mean anything? Perhaps, that they play a role as morale boosters, a unique role that goes hand in hand with national pride, I dunno. But it's highly dubious that spending huge amounts of scientists' time on sci-fi projects is an efficient long-term tactic for scientific progress. I don't know why you mention the Manhattan Project - I'd much rather have no atom bombs, and no aeroplanes and no Internet, if that's what it really meant. There are a few arguments thrown around that private investment in research on nuclear fission would have been better overall - use of Thorium instead of Plutonium. I don't know much about the specifics, I wasn't there.
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There is also the view which I share to some extent that it is mostly a way of subsidising mbig business by removing the R & D overheads and then passing the patents on, similar to what is currently happening with the biotech industry now.
Yeah, and I'm not sure about the motives of politicians who subsidise biotech. I'd like to see decent consumer protection so we can have fair trade, free markets, etc.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:39   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
The US budget deficit is only 3% of GDP at the moment.
Source
This is actually pretty low, 3% is the limit set in Euroland. The danger is though that it will rise if Bush's tax plans go ahead and the economy does not improve as much as he thinks it will. Some people think that the deficit could possibly reach as high as 10% of GDP. Bear in mind that 6% is the highest it has ever been.
you are talking about different things i think. one of you is talking about the depts all together (which micht very well reach 2/3 of the GNP) and the other one talks about the deficit per year.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:43   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I don't understand that. I can see why politically (or morally) it's better for people to have control of their own finances (they know their own affairs, etc) - but why more productive? Or did you mean productive as in more likely to produce effective results for the individuals spending?
Productive in the sense of producing goods and services that people actually want.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 14:44   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
I can't remember who it was exactly.

Turing cracked the Enigma code, IIRC, but I can't remember if he invented the computer that did it.
'The Turing Machine', it's all we ever get in this ****ing CS course.

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Originally posted by queball
Don't forget the role of anti-gay laws in bringing us computers!
Heh
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Unread 29 May 2003, 15:04   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
If you're raising the point that people don't spend wisely then fine, it's true, but you really need to consider whether the government would spend the money better. Consumerism is a big issue but you seem to almost be suggesting that buying stuff is pointless.
My point wasn't about consumerism or what people spend their money on (they can spend it on what they want), it was about production. It's just the expression "The government is going to waste this money", which is fine in terms of "Spending it on stuff I don't want", but doesn't make any sense of producitivity.

I can't see anyway any money can be wasted in an econonomic, general sense. I can waste my money of course (and indeed, do). Even if every tax official was paid £500,000 a year, it's not like the money is disappearing - those officials would either spend it themselves or save - presumably at a similar rate to everyone else.

I'd prefer to obliterate money from any discussion and look at the "raw" components (labour supply, desirable behaviour, commodities, etc, etc...). There's an argument that can be put forward that burecracy is bad because : it's a waste of labour, waste of physical resources (paper, etc) and acts as a disincentive for work, of course.

But Tact has already explained what he meant, which is fair enough. I thought he meant productive in terms of "enabling more production" not necessarily "better", which he's cleared up.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 15:30   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I'd prefer to obliterate money from any discussion and look at the "raw" components (labour supply, desirable behaviour, commodities, etc, etc...).
You forgot enterprise, capital, wealth...
Quote:

There's an argument that can be put forward that burecracy is bad because : it's a waste of labour, waste of physical resources (paper, etc) and acts as a disincentive for work, of course.
OK, you can either see it as purchasing power and allocation of resources, or you can look at microeconomics and efficiency. Anti-capitalists tend for the former, I suppose.
Quote:

But Tact has already explained what he meant, which is fair enough. I thought he meant productive in terms of "enabling more production" not necessarily "better", which he's cleared up.
There are lots of distinctions here, between what people want, what people need, what people get, what people buy. Say taxes in the USA are lowered and everyone buys a new SUV, and the pollution thus caused destroys the world, then it's not exactly "productive". But in a free market where externalities are accounted for, this sort of thing isn't supposed to have any effect. So productive = efficient and efficiency = freedom. OR something.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 15:45   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
You forgot enterprise, capital, wealth...
I know you're probably trying to rile me, but I'd see capital+wealth as just a bunch of other stuff (much like money). Enterprise is just a specific type of labour, to my mind.

One of the reasons why social democrats are so easy to beat in arguments like this is because they rely on the traditional categories but with warped values. So they'll boast about governments creating jobs (what an odd thing to boast about) and that kinda thing.

As for efficiency : I'd view that as of primary importance as well, which is why I'd want maximal input from maximal economic actors. The best way to achieve this is equality. Also there are a hell of a lot of benefits to strong social networks (i.e. fraternity).
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Unread 29 May 2003, 16:38   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I know you're probably trying to rile me, but I'd see capital+wealth as just a bunch of other stuff (much like money). Enterprise is just a specific type of labour, to my mind.

One of the reasons why social democrats are so easy to beat in arguments like this is because they rely on the traditional categories but with warped values. So they'll boast about governments creating jobs (what an odd thing to boast about) and that kinda thing.

As for efficiency : I'd view that as of primary importance as well, which is why I'd want maximal input from maximal economic actors. The best way to achieve this is equality. Also there are a hell of a lot of benefits to strong social networks (i.e. fraternity).
I believe in equality too. OK, imagine global communist solidarity and a small quiant village in the English countryside (not that borders are significant anymore).

Now, everyone is happy with their life. An archeologist (a very popular profession since the collapse of industrial civilisation in 2038) discovers a long lost technology, the power-loom. This would allow far more efficient production of wool, but at the next town meeting the Wool Producters Union gets popular support for rejecting the new technology and the documents are locked away in a museum. The museum burns down mysteriously that night. Sorry to draw this out into a story but I'm bored (due to the inefficient capitalist system?). Have you looked at Amish communities? Is what you propose similiar but with more repect for technology, or what?

Generally I think it would be hard to account for competition from the point of view of labour. You might see all the time and effort wasted on unproductive companies as a bad thing. People could agree to restricted free markets, which is essentially what we have now, but without venture capital would people be prepared to use up the buckets and buckets of capital that banks lend to doomed start-ups? The problem is that our actions always affect society, and truely "desireable behavior" will always be unpopular. By agreeing to systems of fair trade and marketable rights we can allow people to co-operate optimally. In some situations voting with money is just better than one-person-one-vote, or any non-capitalist hierarchy or representational scheme. In some situations it just makes more sense to consider capital rather than labour. On a community and social level allocation of labour is very important. IMO, it would be best if our government considered only capital and not consider labour at all. However, they didn't reply to my request to change the party name.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:00   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
I believe in equality too. OK, imagine global communist solidarity and a small quiant village in the English countryside (not that borders are significant anymore).
(a) I'm a technophile, so I'm not sure why the Amish come into it.
(b) People could market their "Power Loom" in whatever fashion they wish. It's a free country (world sorry, borders abolished).
(c) I don't really see where capital should take the place of individuals in any system of representation. If I've got a billion quid (and I see no ways of stopping expontential accumulation or even limiting it in a non-tax private property system) is my vote worth a billion times more than Joe Schmoe who's got 97 pence in his pocket? What about me, I've currently got capital of -£20,000. Is my vote iin the minus?
(d) Waste is an interesting issue. There are lots of areas where waste is criminal (e.g. defence spending) but it's purely subjective (I'm sure plenty of people think producing cartoons is wasteful). So the real concern is allowing fair distribution of resources so people can "waste" it wherever they want.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:04   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
you are talking about different things i think. one of you is talking about the depts all together (which micht very well reach 2/3 of the GNP) and the other one talks about the deficit per year.
its more likely that the 2/3 number was pulled out of the air.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:06   #38
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Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

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Originally posted by wu_trax
i would try to give more money to those people who spend their money on consumption (to stimulate economical growth). as far as i know, bush is doing the exact opposite.

From everything I've read Bush is attempting to reduce the taxes on small buisness in hopes they hire more people.

It might not work, but its not a dumb idea.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:06   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subatai
its more likely that the 2/3 number was pulled out of the air.
Probably, but wu_trax is correct. The figure about % of GDP is total debt, not current deficit (per annum) level.

To get into the EEC (at one stage, or whatever it was then) you needed it to below a certain level. For some countries it's well over 100% (i.e. their GDP is $10bn, their debt is $2000bn, etc)
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:32   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
(a) I'm a technophile, so I'm not sure why the Amish come into it.
The Amish aren't exactly technophobes, they consider each piece of technology to judge whether or not it is beneficial to their community. From the outside it looks like they have something against technology. They consider labour above capital I guess, I wondered if you had read anything about them.
Quote:
(b) People could market their "Power Loom" in whatever fashion they wish. It's a free country (world sorry, borders abolished).
Yes, but no-one would be able to use it with all their power tied up in communities and such. I'm arguing that if you take a labour-centric view you miss out a whole chuck of reality. For example, it would be difficult to judge how willing people are to invest in technology, GDP, interest rates, the stock market wouldn't mean much.

To put it simply, WHY is labour important? Why is it any more important than its context and economic efficiency: the value produced, in dollars?
Quote:

(c) I don't really see where capital should take the place of individuals in any system of representation. If I've got a billion quid (and I see no ways of stopping expontential accumulation or even limiting it in a non-tax private property system) is my vote worth a billion times more than Joe Schmoe who's got 97 pence in his pocket? What about me, I've currently got capital of -£20,000. Is my vote iin the minus?
You're still buying things. The analogy is that when you buy a good or service you are effectively voting for its survival. I meant voting in the most general sense, not about how to run a republic but how to organise a country or market. But it's more of an analogy about how to look at things than about Democracy.
Quote:

(d) Waste is an interesting issue. There are lots of areas where waste is criminal (e.g. defence spending) but it's purely subjective (I'm sure plenty of people think producing cartoons is wasteful). So the real concern is allowing fair distribution of resources so people can "waste" it wherever they want.
Venture capital does ok.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:32   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Probably, but wu_trax is correct. The figure about % of GDP is total debt, not current deficit (per annum) level.

To get into the EEC (at one stage, or whatever it was then) you needed it to below a certain level. For some countries it's well over 100% (i.e. their GDP is $10bn, their debt is $2000bn, etc)
within the euro-zone both is limited. the limit of deficit per year is 3% and the limit for total depts is about 60% of the GNP (not sure, but if i remember correctly, there is such a limit, or this was some criteria to be allowed to join the euro)
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:35   #42
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by Subatai
From everything I've read Bush is attempting to reduce the taxes on small buisness in hopes they hire more people.

It might not work, but its not a dumb idea.

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Originally posted by wu_trax
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003May19.html
sorry, but this sounds indeed like a dumb idea.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:35   #43
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by Subatai
From everything I've read Bush is attempting to reduce the taxes on small buisness in hopes they hire more people.

It might not work, but its not a dumb idea.
He's building capacity into an economy where supply is currently greatly outstripping demand. So either he expects an upturn in US consumer demand in the short-term, or he's letting the investment create the demand in the medium term.

Either way there's possibly better ways of going about things.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:38   #44
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
He's building capacity into an economy where supply is currently greatly outstripping demand. So either he expects an upturn in US consumer demand in the short-term, or he's letting the investment create the demand in the medium term.

Either way there's possibly better ways of going about things.
if he ruins the exchange rates of the dollar at the same time, it might actually work (on our costs obviously). but if it doesnt, he will get inflation, high interest rates and a ****ed up economy, all at the same time.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:39   #45
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's tax cuts and increased deficit

Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
if he ruins the exchange rates of the dollar at the same time, it might actually work (on our costs obviously). but if it doesnt, he will get inflation, high interest rates and a ****ed up economy, all at the same time.
If he's trying to stimulate the economy he'd surely keep interest rates down, especially with this renewed incentive for businesses to invest alongside these taxes.

But as I say, there's better ways, surely.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:48   #46
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I say put taxes up to 100% and watch george bush drown in $100 bills
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:51   #47
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The deficit spending is something like under 3% of gdp a extremely low amount. Further it has been proven in both 60's by Kennedy and 80's by Reagan that reducing taxes stimulates spending and means increased revenues to the government.

Under Reagan with his tax cuts revenues to the government doubled after his tax cuts.

As far as interest there isnt much more that can be done they are already at historical lows.

And finally politically Bush has now made the debate for 2004 over taxes as the democrats will want to repeal tax cuts he has forced them into a corner. So all you US and Bush haters can move on and find yet another anti-American policy to jump on . You have nothing here on this issue other then utter bs
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:55   #48
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Originally posted by queball
They consider labour above capital I guess, I wondered if you had read anything about them.
I've only limited a very small amount tbh, more on the history of the "Dutch", etc. But anyway the key issue isn't what technology would be developed or not. It's an issue of freedom (as always). The Amish have very restrictive codes of behaviour which makes developments much harder. There isn't one community (and nor should there be) which is the problem the Amish develop. There are multi-layered communities each exhibiting different kinds of support. Absolutley none of my neighbours or work-colleagues share my taste in music for instance (I was laughed at for wearing an Avril t-shirt the other day ) yet I can still interact and co-operate with them. The problem with the Amish society is due to various reasons (social size etc) is they develop a totalitarian society (and people from small villages might know what I'm talking about here) where because of the all encompassing nature of peer-pressure certain behaviour is rigorosouly enforced.
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Yes, but no-one would be able to use it with all their power tied up in communities and such. I'm arguing that if you take a labour-centric view you miss out a whole chuck of reality. For example, it would be difficult to judge how willing people are to invest in technology, GDP, interest rates, the stock market wouldn't mean much.
I'm not sure I even understand what a labour centric view is. Labour is important in terms of (i) that's how we make stuff and (ii) that's what takes up a **** load of our time. Historically it's also been what has helped shape a society (lo Marx). In the future hopefully the latter part won't be true.
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To put it simply, WHY is labour important? Why is it any more important than its context and economic efficiency: the value produced, in dollars?
I only have a problem with dollars being used as an economic vital sign as it's dodgy. It's like getting into a discussion with someone, and someone uses an analogy. Then an argument develops about the analogy, why it's valid, how it could be tweaked. Then everyone forgets what the hell they were talking about, and get's confused. That's where most economics debates are now. It's all about money which is only a sign to value. If you're saying other things are important - then I agree. Houses, goods, ideas, activities - they're all important. I just don't think money is a terribly efficient way of arguing about them. I'm still for currency in practical use, but for economics debates it's a dead end.

Saying one is more important (the process is more important than the objective) than the other is silly either way.

As for venture capital : Does it do OK? How are we measuring this? My problem is that with capital (or money, whatever in this context) it's a permanent immortal trans-generational (takes a breath) method for investment. The people who own the land (or capital of whatever kind) might have got it for their foresight and cunning (not that would make it OK, but I digress) or they might have got it because their dad, or their great-grand-dad, etc, etc.

To use the usual analogy : I'm developing a system of white supremacy. In this sytem, everyone can vote, but whites have proportionally more votes then everyone else. Black people can become white through certain activities, but once white they will no longer represent blacks (well, duh). If enough blacks get together they might be able to raise enough votes to counter one white, but not generally. The whites get the best education, and obviously confer their whiteness to their children. Ocassionally through stupidity, a white man can become black - although this is rare.

Now replace "white" with "rich"...you know the rest.

Ugh, I better go home, I've been here (at work) for 10 hours.
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Unread 29 May 2003, 17:55   #49
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Originally posted by oldtown
So all you US and Bush haters can move on and find yet another anti-American policy to jump on . You have nothing here on this issue other then utter bs
Have you actually read any of this thread?
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Unread 29 May 2003, 18:01   #50
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Originally posted by oldtown
Under Reagan with his tax cuts revenues to the government doubled after his tax cuts.
You got a link for that sparky?

Figures from : http://www.cato.org/fiscal/2002/factsfigs.html

Put the % of GDP to about 18-19% in that period, did the US GDP double in that period also?
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