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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 01:15   #1
Vaio
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A 2nd reason to buy a mac

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4883482.stm

Is Stephen Jobs releasing this to try and get Windows users to use the far far prettier Macs' or just to piss off Gates ?
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 01:23   #2
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

If I were bill gates I'd be seriously annoyed that a whole new market for my product has just been opened.

my yes.

oh goodness i'd be spitting bloody for weeks!

P.S. stop doing shit bbc link threads for no good reason.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 01:28   #3
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I can see many good reasons for posting this link

ps stop being so shit, it's so unbecoming
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 02:02   #4
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

He has a point Vaio.
I believe the story I read on slashdot linked to an article, a section of which mentioned that Bill G himself had welcomed this move. The rest of this argument is contained in Yahwe's post.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 02:25   #5
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I would disagree.

Bill will welcome the move right up to the point where more people decide that OS X is far prettier and more friendly than anything XP or Vista could attempt to be. I would only use Bootcamp to allow me to play the games that are unavailable on OS X or I already own and have no intention of buying a 2nd copy. That's also the reason that I don't use Linux on my main box. Job's intentions 'I believe' are to get people onto Apple hardware firstly and then through either curiosity or sheer bloody mindedness to get them onto OS X. If Gates hasn't twigged this and isnt concerned about it already then he isn't as bright as he is made out to be.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 02:32   #6
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

There is a FIRST reason !?!?!
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 02:38   #7
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I agree up to the getting them on to the hardware bit.
I imagine there's a significantly bigger consumer market for running XP (or vista) on an Apple designed PC than there is for running OSX on a black box from Dell. The sort of consumers who would go for XP on a Mac are likely to be style concious, and want something that is "pretty". I think we can agree that all Apple hardware has "pretty" in quite large lumps.
What I'm getting at is that they're not likely to be attracted to the Mac for OSX, and the first thing they did would probably be to set XP as the default in Bootcamp and never use OSX again. It'd be a case of "yeah, I want that nice one over there - it's got XP with it right?"


Please note I have been careful to use the word "consumer". The geek market, while highly opinionated, is far too small to figure anywhere in either Apple's or Microsoft's sales plans.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 03:26   #8
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I agree up to the getting them on to the hardware bit.
I imagine there's a significantly bigger consumer market for running XP (or vista) on an Apple designed PC than there is for running OSX on a black box from Dell. The sort of consumers who would go for XP on a Mac are likely to be style concious, and want something that is "pretty". I think we can agree that all Apple hardware has "pretty" in quite large lumps.
What I'm getting at is that they're not likely to be attracted to the Mac for OSX, and the first thing they did would probably be to set XP as the default in Bootcamp and never use OSX again. It'd be a case of "yeah, I want that nice one over there - it's got XP with it right?"


Please note I have been careful to use the word "consumer". The geek market, while highly opinionated, is far too small to figure anywhere in either Apple's or Microsoft's sales plans.
I think the geek market is getting bigger. When Dell (the PC equivalent of the mad 50 yr old uncle that dances to Oasis) enters it, it's because they realise that they can make serious money out of it.

If Apple can price their new Intel boxes at a similar price to the average PC, by that I don't mean the cheap consumer boxes from Dixons etc, then they will be a better option.

I believe OS X is a better and certainly friendlier OS than XP and Vista although to be fair the Vista beta I played with was at best problematic and if they can pust the virtues of using OS X for day to day usage and the use of boot camp for all the 'legacy' software then obviously Mister Gates's operating systems will still sell but the market for Office etc will be replaced by cheaper/free and possibly better software and Bill makes far more money from them than his operating systems.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 03:32   #9
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
There is a FIRST reason !?!?!
They look this
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 04:44   #10
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

The free markets are the ultimate democracy, mac users still can't comprehend that the reason for apples relative lack of success isn't a worldwide conspiracy but that they aren't catering to the average users need for flexibility. Im sure this will increase the sale of macs but that only goes to show who the real bitch in the computing world is.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 06:11   #11
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Bill G himself had welcomed this move.
Well, of course he's going to say that. But as Vaio has indicated, if you run XP and OSX on the same (Apple) box then XP is going to look pretty shit by comparison. Not because OSX is "pretty" (or because MS are "teh suck") but because XP is lumping round a bunch of legacy support that Apple dropped a while ago and because XP has to support a dizzying array of hardward combinations (whereas Macs, for the most part, don't have this problem).

I wouldn't want to buy a Mac because I dislike Apple's philosophy (for their main hardware line) and I like the range of choice I have with an IBM compatible PC. But I know lots of people who want to buy Macs but still want the option of ocassionally booting into WinXP for an old application or escoteric bit of hardware (say an old film scanner with no decent Mac driver). This sort of move will give them the opportunity to waste their money on a shiny box.

The ultimate fate of the Windows line of products depends on :
1. How good Vista is (obviously) - an unknown quantity at this point, but I know almost no-one is actually looking forward to it, whereas people were really keen about Win2K when we were stuck with Win98/ME.

2. How good / widespread the next generation of "Win2.0" (groan) sites and applications are. If there is a decent AJAX office suite (or similar) then the OS you're actually in becomes less important.

When I dual booted between Slackware and Win98 back in the day there was quite a wide gap between the experience each enjoyed (different apps, did different things, etc). When I recently tried doing the same with Ubuntu and WinXP I was struck by how similar everything was. OK, partially that's Linux trying to copy the XP look & feel, but it's also telling regarding the evolution of utils/apps/drivers. I found myself still using Opera & VLC as my primary utils of choice, looking at the same websites and being able to access the same network resources (via samba) in pretty much the same fashion. Windows has much less of a unique selling point these days.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 06:13   #12
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The free markets are the ultimate democracy
They can be, but in this context you or I have one vote, the guy in charge of IT procurement at a big public sector department / corporation has 100,000 votes. I'm not sure that's "the ultimate democracy".
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 09:13   #13
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
If Apple can price their new Intel boxes at a similar price to the average PC.
hahahahahaha
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 10:40   #14
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

It's pretty simple, if you want to game/typical pc users, then go windows + ibm compatible machine.
If however you need extra power for: graphic design, music production, ... go mac.
I've been using a pc at home and mac at school for the last 2 years and tbh i'm leaning towards mac more than pc nowadays. They work faster, crash less often, the os is also very handy once you've gotten the hang of it.
I welcome this bootcamp with open arms and now might throw out my home-pc and get me a mac.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 10:41   #15
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

How is a mac more 'powerful' than an equilvalently priced PC, and why would it be better for either graphical design or music production?
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 10:52   #16
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I think it's caus it has double the cache memory of a standard pc. (should look this up though before i make a serious reply, but you'll get one )
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 11:17   #17
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
I think it's caus it has double the cache memory of a standard pc. (should look this up though before i make a serious reply, but you'll get one )
That'll provide the difference between equivilently clocked chips. Apple CANNOT provide cheaper hardware than a PC vendor, simply because of economy of scale.

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Originally Posted by Vaio
They look this
PC's look this. I prefer the latter.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 14:33   #18
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
They can be, but in this context you or I have one vote, the guy in charge of IT procurement at a big public sector department / corporation has 100,000 votes. I'm not sure that's "the ultimate democracy".

Yeah but both PC manufacturers and Apple have equal access to that market. If apple were so much better than PCs other IT guys with thousands of computers to purchase would automatically go with them. Again it isn't a conspiracy of a handful of IT managers keeping down the almighty mac, i firmly believe that even if the world was dominated by macs and the PC came along everyone would start buying PCs. The flexibility they offer is what the majority of people want. The overall modularity of the PC as a system will always triumph over an apple which although may have a more coherent design as a unit just can't face up to the changing pc.

PCs are easier to adapt and as such adapt more quickly to what the public want. Im also always confused by people going on about billl gates controlling too much of the computer world and suggesting the apple philosophy is the path we should choose instead!

Like i said all this shows is that windows is the master in this relationship, im sure mac sales will go up as a result but that only goes to undermine the 'mac philosophy' most people won't switch OSes when they buy macs, instead they'll want a piece of the funky designs but with windows. The sale of macs will be dependant on its looks rather than the advantage its meant to have as a computer over the PC. Its lost that argument by taking windows.

Im sure everyone will agree that in the past this would have been unthinkable, extrapolating into the future could mac just become a generic PC manufacturer with good advertising? a sort of high-class dell without its 'own way'?
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 14:59   #19
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Yeah but both PC manufacturers and Apple have equal access to that market.
That doesn't make it democratic though, certainly not the "ultimate" democracy.

And yeah I agree that PC's are better than Macs, which is why I've always used the former.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 15:26   #20
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

allow a brother some hyperbole
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 15:57   #21
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I think that publically executing Steve Jobs is the only thing that could redeem my view of Apple at all
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 17:37   #22
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I have a Mac and I already run a thing called Virtual PC which allows me to simulate a windows environment within my Mac. It will allow you to play some games though not all.

The Mac which I have has the cpu, speakers and monitor all in one 2" thick unit which sits on a pedestal. it frees up tons of space over any of the desktop pc's I am aware of.

Is this new Windows thingy supposed to be an improvement over what is already out there or just coming from a different company?
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 18:00   #23
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

The windows thing is windows, you won't have to run phantom versions you run it as an OS from the mac.

Personally if anyone wanted more deskroom id say go with a desktop replacement laptop.
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Unread 7 Apr 2006, 18:48   #24
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I have a Mac and I already run a thing called Virtual PC which allows me to simulate a windows environment within my Mac. It will allow you to play some games though not all.

The Mac which I have has the cpu, speakers and monitor all in one 2" thick unit which sits on a pedestal. it frees up tons of space over any of the desktop pc's I am aware of.

Is this new Windows thingy supposed to be an improvement over what is already out there or just coming from a different company?
If its an emulator then I assume it will run significantly slower than the real thing. This might not be a problem if youre just typing up a document on MS Word, but it would be an issue if you were wanting to play the latest games, or perform other computatoinally intensive tasks (eg image processing, rendering etc).
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Unread 8 Apr 2006, 11:13   #25
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If its an emulator then I assume it will run significantly slower than the real thing. This might not be a problem if youre just typing up a document on MS Word, but it would be an issue if you were wanting to play the latest games, or perform other computatoinally intensive tasks (eg image processing, rendering etc).
Yeah but now you can dual boot windows and OS X without having to use an emulator running the latest games and other intensive tasks won't be a problem. A big argument for many people against buying a mac is that you can't play all the latest games on them, and now this will no longer be the case.
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Unread 8 Apr 2006, 11:15   #26
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Did you read the post I was replying to? I was talking about dda's virtual PC emulator.
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Unread 8 Apr 2006, 11:48   #27
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Did you read the post I was replying to? I was talking about dda's virtual PC emulator.
Yeah, I know. And I was saying now there'll be no need for emulators anymore.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 02:27   #28
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

I recently "upgraded" to MAC. For textbook reasons I may add (bought an iPod friend had a Mac, got interested). The only thing I miss about windows is the games. Mac, is far mor reliable, user friendly, and you can't really comment on it if you never used one, because hands down its better, but a hardcore internet gamer would not like it.

This is where the boot camp comes in, now the people who know better, will go Mac, and use bootcamp to play games and test web stuff etc. Thus being a power move for Mac overall. Besides, anyone keeping up with Apple knows that they only released bootcamp because 2 dudes figured out how to run windows in a few days after they recieved a Macbook Pro.

Apple simply embraced the idea, and released bootcamp as an official marketing tool.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 02:44   #29
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
The only thing I miss about windows is the games. Mac, is far mor reliable, user friendly,
now i am ignorant about these things. (i grant)

but here i am on my trusty little laptop.

it runs windows xp. it's run that since the day i bought it.

so it's been pretty reliable.

'user friendly'? well i can use it but i doubt that lady r could.

I don't find my xp running laptop unfriendly.

It let's me have the ultrasound scans of my god daughter as a backdrop. it does what i expect a computer to do.

I don't see how a mac could be friendlier or more reliable :/
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 07:24   #30
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
now i am ignorant about these things. (i grant)

but here i am on my trusty little laptop.

it runs windows xp. it's run that since the day i bought it.

so it's been pretty reliable.

'user friendly'? well i can use it but i doubt that lady r could.

I don't find my xp running laptop unfriendly.

It let's me have the ultrasound scans of my god daughter as a backdrop. it does what i expect a computer to do.

I don't see how a mac could be friendlier or more reliable :/
Is funny that you said "It does what I expect a computer to do"

My initial note to my friend that started me using Mac was "Mac is to simple"
His reply was " I does what you need it to do"
You really have to try one out first. My wife being the bar in this example, she knows **** all about computers. She is one of those people that take Microsoft Exel classes. Who takes those right. I bought her a Windows Laptop a while back, and up until the day it finally took the big shit, I was still explaining how to use it to her. I bought her an Apple computer, and right out the box she hooked it up herself. She didn't know the computers were from different companies or anything. Now she uploads photos, burns CD's and even Movies without asking me.

The ease of doing things and the speed makes Mac a lot better. We bought her aptop about 2 months ago now, and its never been turned off, and the battery lasts about 5 hours. Much betetr than a high end dell/windows xp laptop.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 08:10   #31
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
You really have to try one out first.
Using a Mac has been one of the most infuriating experiences of recent times, for me. At least when Windows does something retarded that you don't want it to there's generally a way of stopping it doing it any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
She didn't know the computers were from different companies or anything. Now she uploads photos, burns CD's and even Movies without asking me.
You may have other problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
We bought her aptop about 2 months ago now, and its never been turned off, and the battery lasts about 5 hours. Much betetr than a high end dell/windows xp laptop.
Of course it's much better than a high end Dell/Windows laptop, because the high end Dell/Windows laptop will be much more powerful and until technology advances that requires a lot more juice than an iBook which runs at 1.2GHz.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 08:23   #32
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Using a Mac has been one of the most infuriating experiences of recent times, for me. At least when Windows does something retarded that you don't want it to there's generally a way of stopping it doing it any more.
Which Mac did you try? I Just went Mac in erm, November of last year. I am an Informations System Technician. I have my job because of windows users I must add.
I am not one of the "Steve Jobs is my Dad!" people. I tried Mac, as a normal person, and its just better.

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You may have other problems.
Where were you on June 16th 2004!!!1132 I so needed this bit of advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Of course it's much better than a high end Dell/Windows laptop, because the high end Dell/Windows laptop will be much more powerful and until technology advances that requires a lot more juice than an iBook which runs at 1.2GHz.
ibooks was introduced about maybe erm, 3 years ago I believe. Its fairly shit by now. Powerboks are still a better deal than and Dell laptop, and I searched hard with a $1800 budget. The ONLY thing that Dell/windows has on Apple is PocketPC. And thats mainly because Apple doesn't have one.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 08:41   #33
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Which Mac did you try?
Several iterations of iMac. Trying to find programs which work on a mac is infuriating as the much-praised lack of back-compatability makes finding unpopular tools next to impossible unless by chance someone has chosen to update it this month rather than last summer. Trying to get iTunes to work in a logical manner is more than infuriating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I am not one of the "Steve Jobs is my Dad!" people. I tried Mac, as a normal person, and its just better.
Each to their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
ibooks was introduced about maybe erm, 3 years ago I believe. Its fairly shit by now. Powerboks are still a better deal than and Dell laptop, and I searched hard with a $1800 budget. The ONLY thing that Dell/windows has on Apple is PocketPC. And thats mainly because Apple doesn't have one.
Yeah, whatever. $2,499.00 is the cost of the 17" Powerbook. It costs £300 more than a laptop with (partially) superior specification that I bought two years ago, it's no surprise that those two years have brought a couple of hours of battery life.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:54   #34
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

$2500 for a computer is hilarious, especially one thats shit for gaming.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:15   #35
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Macs seem to be pretty good as beginners computers if you're (a) reasonably wealthy and (b) don't mind staying a beginner (in terms of computer repair, upgrading, etc)
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 00:21   #36
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
It's pretty simple, if you want to game/typical pc users, then go windows + ibm compatible machine.
If however you need extra power for: graphic design, music production, ... go mac.
I've been using a pc at home and mac at school for the last 2 years and tbh i'm leaning towards mac more than pc nowadays. They work faster, crash less often, the os is also very handy once you've gotten the hang of it.
I welcome this bootcamp with open arms and now might throw out my home-pc and get me a mac.
Ok, I have to use a mac when I'm doing work in the physics department at uni (don't ask me why scientists of all people would run OSX) and I can honestly say that they are the most infuriatingly shit peice of software I have ever used, and the hardware is appaling too. The cooling is woefully inaduquate (this is on those little screens with computers inside them), so that if you do anything too taxing they crash, and ruin that lovely sleek image they have by sounding like a V2 taking off when the fan starts to spin.

Also, regarding the battery life of real laptops, i'm running an AMD64 3400+ and I get 4 hours battery life with ubuntu, so I'm not really that fussed about making the change to a mac laptop.

The next thing would be why would you really want windows anyway? run linux (if you're on a mac you can use either of these).

Another thing to note is that the mac uses an american keyboard layout with (as far as I can recall) no | button. That may not seem like a big deal to you, but it bloody well is to me.

Yet more joys in the web browser department. I'm an opera user (or at a push firefox), and used to think that IE was the worst available web browser. I was wrong, safari is probably one of the biggest peices of crap known to man. Yes I know proper web browsers are available for a mac but that's not the point. Surely they could at least show that they are better than bill in this area, but apparently they're not.

At this point (before I choke on my own rage at the mac) I should acknowlage that any idiot can use them, but is that really such a good thing? Do we really want more idiots (and we have plenty) invading the world of computers? Should it not stay the world of the at least vaugely competent, ie those intelligent enough to breathe?

I should also mention that the mac's OS, although pretty enough I suppose, has a huge defect concerning maximising and minimising windows. As it turns out the maximise button on a window does not maximise the window, as one using, oh, I don't know, any other operating system would expect, but just changes the size of the window in question. Is it just me or is that not a little bit retarded?

One final thing to say about macs, of all the things I hate about them, and they are plentiful, the one that is by far the worst is that there is no bloody right mouse button. Why the hell would I want to hold down the apple button (or sometimes control) to make up for the fact that they want to be different? Individuality is good in a competative market but there's a damn good reason that button is there! Not to mention the scroll wheel.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 00:40   #37
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

You're using an out-of-date mac. All macs nowadays come with a two-buttoned mouse and a scroll wheel. Also, my mac keyboard has a | key. It's shift + \

Safari isn't great, but it's better than IE. If you don't like it just use firefox for mac.

I don't have any problems with heat or fan noise. Again, I think your uni must have out-of-date computers.

I have to agree with you about the maximising windows thing though, I honestly can't understand why it just changes the size. Still, not exactly a huge problem really is it? :
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 02:07   #38
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Re: A 2nd reason to buy a mac

Why Macs Suck
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