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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 21:15   #1
Gate
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r29 shipstats

People were unhappy with the 'rush job' of last round, so it might be a good idea to start talking about now.

My stats don't seem very popular, but in the interest of giving options I've modified the current set, and put it here. I'd hope some more people will put in effort for next round (or OMAC will announce something), but it can't hurt to have this option open.



I looked at current race performance on sandmans and made changes based on that.

Out of interest, at this stage the ratio by race of % of t100 divided by % of ppl picking that race is currently 0.25/1.31/1.34/1/1.35. To me, this says that etd/zik look about ok, xan overpowered, cath possibly underpowered and terran underpowered.


Various things I'd considered but can't be bothered to do right now are:
- change etd CO to cloak or both their fleets to a cloak/EMP mix. OR make the lancer a stealer.
- move cath DE to CO
- move etd BS to DE

Just to shake stuff up.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 22:40   #2
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Out of interest, at this stage the ratio by race of % of t100 divided by % of ppl picking that race is currently 0.25/1.31/1.34/1/1.35. To me, this says that etd/zik look about ok, xan overpowered, cath possibly underpowered and terran underpowered.
Sorry, but this is utter bollocks.

As for the changes you suggest, you might as well make a new set if you're going to shift roiding fleets around. Not that that would necessarily be a bad thing, but frantically holding on to this set while at the same time completely changing them seems a bit strange to me.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 22:41   #3
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Re: r29 shipstats

i have so many ideas im not bothered to write down until its a topic in an irc-chan where pa-team or omac has taken the initiative to show the community they will let us help them develop the game..

then ill discuss the topics set in there, but not on the forums ever again. its a wall to complain on and it doesnt lead to anything.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 22:43   #4
Mzyxptlk
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Re: r29 shipstats

Sounds good to me.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 22:45   #5
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Re: r29 shipstats

lets just sit down and wait then. my chair is pretty comfy though and i can just write /life and come back in a few years if nothing happens
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 23:09   #6
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Sorry, but this is utter bollocks.
Want to explain why? I'm basing that mostly off the figures on sandmans, and it seems a reasonable conclusion based on that evidence.

Quote:
As for the changes you suggest, you might as well make a new set if you're going to shift roiding fleets around. Not that that would necessarily be a bad thing, but frantically holding on to this set while at the same time completely changing them seems a bit strange to me.
I'm not going to bother changing roiding fleets around unless I'm really bored.

As for holding onto this set; I always find it a lot easier to start from one set and modify to another. This round's set is based on last round's. r17 was based on r16. Starting from scratch takes a lot more effort for my brain.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 23:14   #7
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Re: r29 shipstats

if someone pays me about £47 (i need new shure canalphones) i'll make the best shipstat set involving 5 races this game has seen
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 23:17   #8
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Re: r29 shipstats

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if someone pays me about £47 (i need new shure canalphones) i'll make the best shipstat set involving 5 races this game has seen
I'll contribute my share if every other person signed up does the same.

That's four shiny pennies from me.
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Unread 31 Aug 2008, 23:30   #9
Mzyxptlk
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Want to explain why? I'm basing that mostly off the figures on sandmans, and it seems a reasonable conclusion based on that evidence.
If the evidence were any good, sure.

It's tick 364.
People aren't objective.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 00:18   #10
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Re: r29 shipstats

To be quite honest, I hope Appocomaster does as he said, and would make r29 stats himself.

Im sorry Gate, but your stat making ability is quite shit.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 01:48   #11
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
To be quite honest, I hope Appocomaster does as he said, and would make r29 stats himself.

Im sorry Gate, but your stat making ability is quite shit.
If you can do any better mate then lets see them.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 05:41   #12
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
If you can do any better mate then lets see them.
Moronic argument.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 07:27   #13
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
I'm not going to bother changing roiding fleets around unless I'm really bored.

As for holding onto this set; I always find it a lot easier to start from one set and modify to another. This round's set is based on last round's. r17 was based on r16. Starting from scratch takes a lot more effort for my brain.
I think this kind of sums up the problems with shipstats. People think it's easier to modify an existing set, since all they have to do is modify the things they want to modify. Unfortunately, any modifications have a tendency to set off rolling needs for balancing throughout the stats, so you end up hunting them down, finding solutions, and then seeing what the solutions broke and fixing that. It's a near endless process really seeing as how you're working with a set based on some given principles and trying to impose a different set of principles on them.

On the other hand, creating a new set means you can base everything on the same principles and the same design core to begin with, and thus the ripples of changes from balancing things tend to be smaller.

It's like chess, the better player sees deeper into the game, to a point where the weaker player doesn't realize his plays still have an effect.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 09:54   #14
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Moronic argument.
I disagree, if a person complains there is a problem with such complex stats. Then this person must at least have an insight into what makes GOOD stats. If they know what makes good stats then they can produce better stats.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 10:26   #15
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I disagree, if a person complains there is a problem with such complex stats. Then this person must at least have an insight into what makes GOOD stats. If they know what makes good stats then they can produce better stats.
I'll vouch for Mz on account of his understanding of the subject. However, just because someone is capable of doing something does not mean they have to, as any such endeavor would be a strain on their personal time it is not reasonable to expect them to automatically do so.

However a person who is not willing or able to sacrifice of his own time to take on such a project can still contribute through critique of the work, and at times that critique may have to be quite stern. If there is a fundamental design flaw then it is most often easier to start over from scratch than to try to work around it. And the results are better.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 10:37   #16
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Re: r29 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
Im sorry Gate, but your stat making ability is quite shit.
Is this because of balance, or because you don't like terran FI and xand CR?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's tick 364.
People aren't objective.
This was accounted for - zik/xan should be weaker at this point whilst the EMP races should be doing better to take account of their different late round performance. I also tried to account for some other factors too.

It's not particularly good evidence, but it's the only place we have to start, and people whined about the rush job last time. Ignoring this evidence would be irresponsible, as would overestimating its reliability...
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Last edited by Gate; 1 Sep 2008 at 10:45.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 12:45   #17
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Re: r29 shipstats

gate is still better than appocomaster who is a complete jackass when it comes to understanding design; as nice a faggot he may be
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 13:27   #18
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Re: r29 shipstats

r14 stats were cool, yo.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 14:04   #19
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Re: r29 shipstats

we've been going the wrong way every round since then though
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 14:06   #20
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Is this because of balance, or because you don't like terran FI and xand CR?
I don't like Xan CR. Terran have been shit for several rounds, so a drastic change was probably needed if for nothing else than to try something different.

Maintaining some of the principle qualities of a race's main attributes is important, especially in keeping with the (now seemingly lost) storylines and race characteristics. Xan initiatives are finally back on track, but they simply shouldn't have anything bigger than a Destroyer. A Fighter and Fr or De roidfleet was quite good I thought. I can't see a race that is historically "small, light, cloaked" ships with a Cruiser roidfleet.

My general feeling is that making drastic changes to ships' targetting and roidfleets each round is just a pain in the ass. I can't look at a unit scan right now and tell you what targets what, or what def ships to send against a certain fleet. New ships with new names don't help this either.

I don't play PA for shiny new stats every round that I have to try to memorize. It makes me less and less interested in trying to play, for that matter. If something isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

The stats aren't "shit" or anything, I just don't care for the changes made since last round, and the general direction they've taken in the past few rounds.
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 17:36   #21
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Re: r29 shipstats

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<complaint about me not reading the suggestions forums>
I've replied to most of the recent suggestion forum threads, often with "I've just coded this".

I've just sent out a mail to the top 15 or so alliances asking for feedback on ideas for the next couple of rounds, with both short answers and explanations.

I've also got a few people on the dev forum discussing new ideas (some of which feeds back to here).

I've also taken lots of feedback from covert ops and changed some fair part of it (with more pending0.

What more do you want me to do?
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 21:47   #22
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
What more do you want me to do?
You could try asking god for some little help (-:
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Unread 1 Sep 2008, 23:39   #23
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Re: r29 shipstats

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I've just sent out a mail to the top 15 or so alliances asking for feedback on ideas for the next couple of rounds, with both short answers and explanations.
as much as I respect many of the alliance HC's I fail to see why they should be more entitled than many other players who care about pa. This obviously depends whether they consult with others within their alliances before replying so it could turn out to be nicely democratic with the alliance HC's acting as their alliance MP for the members of the alliance - However I have my doubts that many alliance HCs will do this, did you suggest in your mail that they do so?
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Unread 2 Sep 2008, 10:40   #24
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
as much as I respect many of the alliance HC's I fail to see why they should be more entitled than many other players who care about pa. This obviously depends whether they consult with others within their alliances before replying so it could turn out to be nicely democratic with the alliance HC's acting as their alliance MP for the members of the alliance - However I have my doubts that many alliance HCs will do this, did you suggest in your mail that they do so?
I asked their opinions on things like alliance limits, tactics and tools which, to be fair, they're generally more concerned about than your average member (and sometimes more knowledgable about!)
Also, a member may not know how changing alliance limits would affect their recruitment procedures; however, an alliance HC for recruitment would!

I've left it up to the alliance HCs as to how they discuss the answers they give - different alliances have different amounts of openness as to how they run things
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Unread 3 Sep 2008, 03:16   #25
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Re: r29 shipstats

If etd is supposed to be a mix of everything , pls do give them atleast one steal ship
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Unread 3 Sep 2008, 12:06   #26
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Re: r29 shipstats

Any stats available to view yet?
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Unread 3 Sep 2008, 12:50   #27
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Re: r29 shipstats

The OP contains a link to a set.
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Unread 3 Sep 2008, 16:17   #28
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Re: r29 shipstats

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The OP contains a link to a set.
Funny i didnt see it the first time

Gate I see you have paol 3.8.4 stored on your server :P
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Unread 4 Sep 2008, 01:17   #29
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Re: r29 shipstats

what round was it when all races had 1 Fr pod + 1 pod of another class ?
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Unread 4 Sep 2008, 14:26   #30
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Re: r29 shipstats

When races were introduced; r6 - 9.5
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Unread 4 Sep 2008, 20:13   #31
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Re: r29 shipstats

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You could try asking god for some little help (-:
Sorry, a bit busy at this time with uni and such, I hope you all understand.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 15:23   #32
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Re: r29 shipstats

So.. R29 stats anyone?
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 17:13   #33
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Re: r29 shipstats

Haven't heard anything yet.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 19:49   #34
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Re: r29 shipstats

Appoco said he was doing them iirc.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 20:41   #35
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Re: r29 shipstats

so probably another complete change?
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 22:34   #36
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Re: r29 shipstats

Which can't be a bad thing? Otherwise I can see alot more people choosing Xan.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 23:31   #37
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Re: r29 shipstats

a round of cathbiased stats then eh!
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 19:45   #38
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Re: r29 shipstats

I dont think stats makers should be too wary if they end up slightly over powering Cathaar. Early in a round they attract alot of incs (often heavily piggied) so they have to work to get in a position where they are hard to break down.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 10:19   #39
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Re: r29 shipstats

Problem with overpowered cath is still that it makes for untouchable top players whilst smaller players will still suffer because EMP is broken.

As for these stats, I think xand overpowering is easy enough to deal with.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 10:33   #40
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Re: r29 shipstats

btw I think the locust was a mistake - their T3 anti fr is not as useful as it looked as there are so many xan players who send banshees with their fr makes it worthless keeping em home in an attempt to kill incs as they will quite often die to no effect.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 10:43   #41
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Re: r29 shipstats

T3 is never useful.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 12:43   #42
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Re: r29 shipstats

the r26 tulla t3 de was good imo, it often saved me!
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 13:56   #43
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Re: r29 shipstats

A recluse/orbweaver T3 of CR could have proved useful IMO. A way of directly stunning things like rogue & broadsword without having to go through the associated BS fleet, and providing extra stunning against the CR fleets.

My change to xands would be to cut some of their a/c, d/c and e/r. Possibly remove shadow t3 (or reduce its E/R and init to same as cerb). Move banshee to CO/DE targetting and make the revenant a CO that targets FR/DE after the pillager/peg/locust fire. Fireblade would be changed so that the mantis is the only zero loss DE killer.

I'd also play around with etd to try and get a mixed EMP/kill attack fleet and beef up the smaller terran ships a lil.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 14:41   #44
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Re: r29 shipstats

I think you'd be moving in the wrong direction there. Xan weren't all that overpowered this round, selection bias has played a huge part in their prevalence in the T100. Also, it was much more their racial cloaking ability which made them powerful rather than any stat advantage.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 15:20   #45
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Also, it was much more their racial cloaking ability which made them powerful rather than any stat advantage.
So what do you suggest? Removing their cloak? I think changing their stats makes more sense.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 16:01   #46
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Re: r29 shipstats

I was simply pointing out that the issue of balance needs to be looked at in a broader sense.

If I did have a suggestion it would be to to have ship development done with a racially interwoven tech tree, allowing for different races to get different technologies at different points with just a small selection of unique ships per race but this is hardly the place to discuss that.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 07:22   #47
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
selection bias
28 of the 54 Xans in the top100 are in Ascendancy.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 08:41   #48
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Re: r29 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
I think you'd be moving in the wrong direction there. Xan weren't all that overpowered this round, selection bias has played a huge part in their prevalence in the T100. Also, it was much more their racial cloaking ability which made them powerful rather than any stat advantage.
The changes I suggested aren't severe, they'd be an attempt to offset cloaking which seems fair enough to me. I'm not sure selection bias is a good enough excuse, the balance looks ****ed...

The hope would be to give terran and cath a small boost in comparison and encourage etd to go for a more balance kill/emp mix.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 10:19   #49
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Re: r29 shipstats

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I'm not sure selection bias is a good enough excuse, the balance looks ****ed...
We have 42 of the top100 planets, of course selection bias on Ascendancy's part is a huge factor. Not only does our own planet selection weight Xan's our targetting does too, as Xan vs Xan is impossible.

In truth JBG wanted Asc to be mostly Xan as it was best for the alliance as a whole. You could 'weaken' the Xan alot more if you wished and we would have still gone mostly for it. Given that you have a high % of the better skilled players being told to go a particular race it will of course inbalance the whole affair.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 10:58   #50
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Re: r29 shipstats

Actually i think you are all quite incorrect, the main problem this round was the simple fact Xan could not hit Xan... if Xan could hit Xan it would of been a different ball game.
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R21-Randy Dandys Winners R21
1:9:5 -SoClose- -YetSoFar-

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