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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 20:42   #1
Cochese
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r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Well, what does everyone think?
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 20:49   #2
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I think that, in general, PA team must want to not be bothered with this game anymore. Stats + alliance limit to 60, they really are trying to drive everyone away.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 20:52   #3
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

TBH it's easier to get fewer people into an alliance than 70.

Should have lowered it to 40.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 20:59   #4
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

lower you set alliance limits, the more people won't play. I Think that has been proven over the last 5-10 rounds. Also, the fewer people in 1 alliance, the more hardcore they will be, shutting out newbs and relegating them to the lower reaches of the universe, and thus more people won't play. i will be suprised if we see 1400 planets this round. We started last round with 1600.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:02   #5
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Uhm, the alliance limit has been 70 for three rounds now, and the amount of players have still gone down. Quite hilarious to blame the alliance limits for that.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:09   #6
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

There's not enough people left to support old, bulky alliances and that style of play.

Look at the alliance rankings, and how many have 60-70 members.

Subtract fly-by-night planets and BG's from that, and figure how many are "core" type people that play for the same alliance round after round.

I think you'll find the actual memberbase is closer to 50 than 70, and probably more like 40.


The days of "big" alliances are gone. The universe (playerbase) is simply too small to support it, and this transitional period between big and small (average) alliances leads to stagnated gameplay.

Having 20 40-man alliances has the potential for more interesting rounds--politically and militarily--than 11 70-man alliances...or whatever that difference equates to.


Anyways, back to stats...

I'm really not impressed in the trend of increasing xan initiatives, while also lowering initiatives of other races' ships to equal--or in the case of most of the Terran ships and Zik kill ships--or lower initiaves than Xans. Their FR fleet seems to be improving, comparatively speaking, but the backbone and foundation has always beein their Fi or Fi/Co fleet...which is becoming more and more obsolete with each increase in their initiative each round.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:13   #7
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

:crymeariver: my poor xans

etd and ter having lower init attacking co/de than xan fi are u shitting me

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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:13   #8
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Indeed Cochese. I advocated 50 members but the reducement was sadly down to only 60.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:34   #9
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

perhaps I am just not seeing it but I on my first look I dont see anything that helps prevent cathaar being the constantly bashed race... anyone care to enlighten me?
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:38   #10
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

yea they have low inits and emp, job done for cath
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:39   #11
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

50 members or 40 members or anything doesn't change shit, the amount of willing officers/hc's are still going to remain the same, what exactly will the people who will cut out from the original 70 do exactly? just be out of tag members like ct have had and so on. the people who will be cut out won't be the active ones; so hardly going to be ones likely to set up new alliances. stop looking out for your own alliances in terms of improving your own chance to challenge for #1, cutting down membersize doesn't actually help.
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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 21:56   #12
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
yea they have low inits and emp, job done for cath
did they not have low init and emp last round... however they were noticably the most often attacked therefore something was obviously going wrong... while emp is always going to mean some more attacks on them I dont think it should be to the extent that they were targeted last round.
tbh they look very similar to last round, the only difference I have found so far is more guns for BW and scorp, cant see this discouraging attacks.
might I pose the proposition that if cath is to be unbalanced as it apparently always is is it not better to have them too strong as it wont hurt anyone else

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Unread 1 Jan 2008, 22:23   #13
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

After a first look, in general I like the changes. I support lowering the alliance limit, because it helps prevent domination by 1 single alliance.

I also like the stat changes in general.

The Terran changes are in line with my own ideas.

The Cathaar changes might be a bit overdone. Probably a Cathaar will win next round. I don't think they will be powerfull enough to dominate the top 100 though.

The change to the Xan is minimal, but effective. One change (the Phantoms init reduced and at the same the Harpies init improved) can make a radical difference, but Xan still seem strong.

The Zik change is similar to that of the Xan. Removal of the Cutter's 3rd target again can have a major effect. I don't think it will be enough to stop Zik from being one of the best races though.

I don't think the change to Etd will make much of a difference. The improvements to the Voyager, Vendor, Dealer and Broker are quite significant, but I don't think it will be enough to make this a popular race.
I do intend to try them out myself so I'm not realy a neutral here. I would have tried them even without a change to the stats: it's the only race I never tried. And this might be my last chance.

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Unread 2 Jan 2008, 00:52   #14
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

I would keep the alliances but would take out their eta bonus. The -1eta def I would give it to each race defending their own kind and to clusters.
- Alliances would be more about attacking than defending
- Defense would shift to cluster/gals/races (an advantage for Cath probably)...

As for stats, it's really something I learned not to care about. In earlier rounds I would push to have better stats for my beloved Xans, but now I just look at the final stats and pick whatever race I feel will fare best.
Obvious change for Ziks (I picked in r24) is:
- they can attack fellow ziks with DE as the cutter has lost his anti DE capacity and the only anti DE left is the Thief, being fired first at by the Clipper.
- stealing Pegs is even better now that both Xan FIs are init 6, stealing Voyager is another option to be protected vs Xan FI. Meaning building Corsair seems better than Cutlass coz stealing CO offers a better protection than stealing Xan FIs.
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Unread 2 Jan 2008, 03:22   #15
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Kargool: The biggest decrease in players happened when PA started charging. The second biggest decrease in players was when they limited alliances to 100. The first round they did that, we had barely 4k planets iirc. that was, close to 10 rounds ago. It keeps going down, and will continue to go down, and 1 big reason is that alliance limit. Sure, P2P and stats play a part in people not returning, but so does alliance size, and to discount that is absurd.

There will now be people who will have to decide if they want to pay for a round where they can't be in the alliance they want to be. 4-5 alliances this round had more than 60 players in it. Do you think those extras will be happy getting relegated to either being out of tag, or worse, being forced to join a sub-par alliance?

I mean, what makes this more silly is, they cut down the alliance limit, and than they'll close anyone caught outside that limit helping the alliance. So if you don't make the cut, you don't even get the option of being a random who helps them, you HAVE to go to another alliance, or just go solo. So many restrictions on a simple game, most of them completely illogical.
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Unread 2 Jan 2008, 16:10   #16
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

For those too lazy to read:
-Xan-fi now has to cope with Voyagers shooting first, and Harpies same init
-Cath got a bit more efficiency
-Etd Co/Cr got improved, Voyager shoots before Phantom, Broker shoots before Drake/Spectre

A little sum up of the changs:

Harpy 25% more Damage, Init down to 6
Syren 10% more Damage
Spider 20 % more Armor ~20% more eff
Viper 10% more Armor 20% -> Wyv, 40% -> Drag more eff
BW 10% less Armor ~10% more eff
Scorp ~10-20% more eff
Phantom Init 6
Wraith no more T2 FR
Cutter no more T3 DE
Voyager massive 15% Armor 20% Damage improvement
Vendor ~10% more eff
Dealer 15% Damage improvement T2 FI
Broker Init down to 6
Ranger 5% -> Wyv, 30% -> Drag more eff

Terran didnt change much, except a bit better Harpies, which shouldnt have a big impact.
Dragons now get freezed more effectivly, but that only adjusts the percentages stunned when attacking with a mix of ships.

Cath gained slightly more power, Spider, Viper, BW, Scorp got improved - will boost them a bit.

Xan lost their Init 5 Phantoms, they now shoot after Voyager(!) Peg and Nightmare, and same init as Harpie - this will give much more Options to defend against these, but FI shouldnt be underestimated.
I didnt play Xan, and didnt see lots of Incs on Xans, but i doubt that the Wraith T2 change will weaken Xan. (correct me if im wrong and you all loved the Wraith).

Zik lost their T3 DE Cutters, but as a Zik i can say i do not care at all.

Etd had the most changes. The Voyager is now able to stop FI fleets with ease, the Vendor getting more Power. A Generally improved CO-Fleet, able to do some nice roiding work.
Broker Init from 8 down to 6 also enables some nice attacks as it shoots before Drake and Spectre, which gives the Etd-CR fleet a nice boost combined with the slightly improved Ranger.

I think the changes are well-done - will be an interesting round.
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Unread 2 Jan 2008, 17:14   #17
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizo
Wraith no more T2 FR
The T2 Fr is new for the Wraith, which makes Wraith a more viable option to use as anti-Co+Fr now that fighters are less usefull.

Quote:
Terran didnt change much, except a bit better Harpies, which shouldnt have a big impact.
Dragons now get freezed more effectivly, but that only adjusts the percentages stunned when attacking with a mix of ships.
Terran ships were made cheaper, more like other races’ ships. That makes it better possible for a Cathaar to attack a Zikonian who owns some Terran ships.
In general Terran ships emp resistance was reduced more than what they were made cheaper.

Quote:
I think the changes are well-done - will be an interesting round.
I agree.

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Unread 2 Jan 2008, 19:52   #18
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizo
For those too lazy to read:

Zik lost their T3 DE Cutters, but as a Zik i can say i do not care at all.
Youre aware that ziks only anti de now is their init 21 thiefs which will make them ****ed against zik de for quite some time.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 01:30   #19
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

If the stats are more balanced the deciding factor might be the universe composition.
Atm the ETD look a fun race to pick
I think it is clear than Xans are no more the race with fast initiative. The terran FI having the same initiative as the Xan FI sounds like an heresy... (imagine a xan FI with as much armour as a terran ship), I wish good luck to Xans in their favourite chicken games...
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 01:42   #20
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Where are the stats?
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 09:21   #21
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Oh, Zik got that useless Rogue again....
Why would a zik build a ship that can steal cr when you cant build your own?
Or is it me just being not drunk enough to see its benefits???
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 09:48   #22
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Its not you
I think theyve managed to create most races pretty equally shit to an extent now, ofc some are still marginally worse than others.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 15:29   #23
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Where are the stats?
i still haven't found the original link - but someone else pasted this in a public channel and it seems to be the rd 25 stats peeps are talking bout :

planetarion.com/Round25.htm
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 15:34   #24
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Youre aware that ziks only anti de now is their init 21 thiefs which will make them ****ed against zik de for quite some time.
Doesn't matter. It just means zik planets gain a lot of roids from themselves, which really has no impact other than XP, if you think about it (zik1 roiding zik2, zik2 roiding zik1, end result: no change).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
After a first look, in general I like the changes. I support lowering the alliance limit, because it helps prevent domination by 1 single alliance.
Lower alliance limits = less players in a decent alliance due to lack of capable officers/HCs = earlier stagnation (and less people willing to actually play!)
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 15:40   #25
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Doesn't matter. It just means zik planets gain a lot of roids from themselves, which really has no impact other than XP, if you think about it (zik1 roiding zik2, zik2 roiding zik1, end result: no change).

More like the inactive or smaller ziks will get waved to death early on while the ziks in good gals and alliances will benefit greatly from alliance def. This again might mean that ziks who tend to be slow starters might get the upperhand right away.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 16:11   #26
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

You're wrong. When ziks can easily roid each other small ziks can roid big ziks. When ziks have a harder time roiding each other only big ziks can roid small ziks. Defence has no impact here.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 17:40   #27
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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(and less people willing to actually play!)
Thank you! At least I wasn't the only one thinking this.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 18:09   #28
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

The stats seem to create a race dynamic depressingly similar to last round.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 18:22   #29
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Well etd certainly is a better option now, their co is quite nice. Xan is a fair bit weaker than last round, something which will hopen the game up more especially because their fake allydef hopefully wont be as big a hassle this round since more people will focus on fr instead of fi.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 18:39   #30
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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You're wrong. When ziks can easily roid each other small ziks can roid big ziks. When ziks have a harder time roiding each other only big ziks can roid small ziks. Defence has no impact here.
Well some people will some lucky\skilled\devious enough to steal proper anti de making them much harder to roid while they can still pick up free roids from the unlucky ones who dont steal. I know this is fairly usual, but it will be even more of this than normal.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 19:11   #31
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Well etd certainly is a better option now, their co is quite nice. Xan is a fair bit weaker than last round, something which will hopen the game up more especially because their fake allydef hopefully wont be as big a hassle this round since more people will focus on fr instead of fi.
Etd is a bit better, but it had good attack options on paper last round too. It remains critically vulnerable to single class wave attacks and will be in a similar position to caths again having great ships but having a hard time keeping asteroids to build them. Xans still look very strong and I would expect to once again see lots of cloaked ships of all kinds.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 19:35   #32
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Lower alliance limits = less players in a decent alliance due to lack of capable officers/HCs = earlier stagnation (and less people willing to actually play!)
The model of a small group of people doing a ton of work to try and keep everyone else playing is not sustainable or desirable. Reducing the size of groups at least holds out the possibility of making work easier to share instead of continuing to burnout the few people still crazy enough to take on the workload of a larger alliance.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 19:49   #33
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Etd is a bit better, but it had good attack options on paper last round too. It remains critically vulnerable to single class wave attacks and will be in a similar position to caths again having great ships but having a hard time keeping asteroids to build them. Xans still look very strong and I would expect to once again see lots of cloaked ships of all kinds.
The etd co fleet is quite a bit better than last round due to phantom being knocked back a init though. Their big weakness is ofc their anti bs which is pretty shit afaik.
The point with xans is that next round there "should" be more xans focusing on FR making less fi eta def available in the uni. Last round was rediculous that way.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 19:58   #34
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

reducing the size of groups may be helpful to the few HC's left, as they don't have to manage a large number (though if you are saying that our HC/BC's are growing weaker as rounds go on, I'd like to see your proof of this) but shrinking the size hurts the people who least need to be hurt, the pe0ns. Maybe 1 HC now has a less stressful round managing a smaller flock, but 10 of his flock just got kicked to the curb, and it's not like 1 of them will just spring up and become an HC for a new alliance, they will either leave, or be forced into a lower alliance, where they will wither and die.

As an aside, making stats less complicated would greatly lessen the stress on the officers of an alliance, far more so than giveng them less people to manage. Going back to single targetting makes calcing attacks/defs so much easier that the BC's/DC's can do twice as much with half the effort. Uncomplicate the stats, and the stress is lessened, but thats another topic all together.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 20:32   #35
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Originally Posted by isildurx
The etd co fleet is quite a bit better than last round due to phantom being knocked back a init though. Their big weakness is ofc their anti bs which is pretty shit afaik.
The point with xans is that next round there "should" be more xans focusing on FR making less fi eta def available in the uni. Last round was rediculous that way.
Etd is better than last round (where it wasn't as bad as it looked). If people play etd we will see some successful etd planets. Etd wasn't held back last round by its attacks however, it was held back by the fact that it was vulnerable to single class wave attacks like cathaar and relied partially on emp like cathaar. Cathaar btw had and still have the best ships in the game. Meanwhile Xandrathii and to a lesser extent terrans will face much less single class waving and much fewer solo attacks. Xans especially will have a massive head start in value as they face little early incoming in the round and etds get waved. Now you are facing an uphill battle to build enough vendors to face off against xan fr fleets.

As for xan defence, why won't they just fake wraiths against you instead of phantoms?
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 20:48   #36
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Wraith isnt anti fi so it wont affect xans atleast. And id assume since its not in their roidfleet it wont be around in nearly the same numbers as phantoms were last round. You have some valid points though, guess well have to see how it turns out.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 21:07   #37
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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reducing the size of groups may be helpful to the few HC's left, as they don't have to manage a large number (though if you are saying that our HC/BC's are growing weaker as rounds go on, I'd like to see your proof of this)
The proof is everywhere including your introduction, or do you not consider the fact that there are fewer of them around a sign of a weaker group?

I know way more ex-DC's than I know active DC's in PA right now.

Quote:
but shrinking the size hurts the people who least need to be hurt, the pe0ns. Maybe 1 HC now has a less stressful round managing a smaller flock, but 10 of his flock just got kicked to the curb, and it's not like 1 of them will just spring up and become an HC for a new alliance, they will either leave, or be forced into a lower alliance, where they will wither and die.
As opposed to when the 1 HC just goes inactive or quits because he is burnt out from doing all that work and the same people that wouldn't step up to form a new alliance won't step up and help the alliance. The result is the same either way because the underlying problem is that not enough people are willing to step up and do organizational work.

The idea that we should hang onto large alliances so we can maximize our exploitation of the few remaining HC/Officers ignores the fact that the number of HC/Officers is shrinking partly because of how exploited they are by an inactive and unmotivated player base and partly because they are members of that inactive and unmotivated player base.

Quote:
As an aside, making stats less complicated would greatly lessen the stress on the officers of an alliance, far more so than giveng them less people to manage. Going back to single targetting makes calcing attacks/defs so much easier that the BC's/DC's can do twice as much with half the effort. Uncomplicate the stats, and the stress is lessened, but thats another topic all together.
It would also reduce the stress on peons and the demands they place on officers.

The problem with your reasoning here is that you are treating HC/Officers as a static group that will be the same size and do the same amount of work regardless of what alliances are like. This is not the case. When HC/Officer work is hard and thankless less people will do it. Likewise if you make HC/Officer work easier/more rewarding, more people will be willing to do it. Simplifying the stats would make the work easier, so would reducing the sizes of alliances.

I think current and long history of battegroups and galaxy groups shows that plenty of people are happy to do the easier/more rewarding work of organizing a smaller closer group who aren't willing to take on the burden and responsibility of 50-70 people.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 21:15   #38
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Wraith isnt anti fi so it wont affect xans atleast. And id assume since its not in their roidfleet it wont be around in nearly the same numbers as phantoms were last round. You have some valid points though, guess well have to see how it turns out.
Right, I was talking about the Etd CO fleet that we were discussing. And since wraiths fire with your voyagers with a better efficiency, they won't need that many of them to really screw up your calc. But yes, Etd CO is a bit better than last round because of the change in phantom initiation. I disagree that this change will significantly effect the overall balance of races. Etd was playable last round too, people just didn't want to deal with the incoming.
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 22:54   #39
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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The proof is everywhere including your introduction, or do you not consider the fact that there are fewer of them around a sign of a weaker group?

I know way more ex-DC's than I know active DC's in PA right now.
No, thats not a sign of a weaker group, it's simply a sign of people leaving the game. I know many ex-everythings as well, The problems don't lie in the numbers tho. Urwins had 3 HC's this round. With 70 players. In the "good ol days" 3 HC's could comfortably run a 100+ man alliance. DC's are proportional, as the less planets you have, the less inc you get, but the less def you can work with, so no matter the numbers, you're going to stress them equally. Politics can honestly be far more of an impact on DC's than numbers. Stats are also far more of an impact on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
The idea that we should hang onto large alliances so we can maximize our exploitation of the few remaining HC/Officers ignores the fact that the number of HC/Officers is shrinking partly because of how exploited they are by an inactive and unmotivated player base and partly because they are members of that inactive and unmotivated player base.
The reason to hang onto the larger alliance #'s is done for the benefit of the alliance as a whole. Do you think it's going to be better, than, for alliances to be reduced to 30 when the player base is 700? I have yet to see any evidence to show that the reduction of alliance size has had any positive impact on the game thus far, rather I have seen the negative impact it has caused.

Quote:
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It would also reduce the stress on peons and the demands they place on officers.

The problem with your reasoning here is that you are treating HC/Officers as a static group that will be the same size and do the same amount of work regardless of what alliances are like. This is not the case. When HC/Officer work is hard and thankless less people will do it. Likewise if you make HC/Officer work easier/more rewarding, more people will be willing to do it. Simplifying the stats would make the work easier, so would reducing the sizes of alliances.
HC's and BC/DC's has always been a thankless job. If those who choose to do such jobs do not understand that going into it, they had no idea of the job they were applying for. Haveing 30 people be not thankful to you, or having 100 people be not thankful to you makes no difference, it's still a thankless job. And no, it's not a static # of people, technically it should fluctuate, but your argument is that making smaller alliances is the solution, but aren't you just causing more HC/BC's to be needed that way? Explain the logic there.

Quote:
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I think current and long history of battegroups and galaxy groups shows that plenty of people are happy to do the easier/more rewarding work of organizing a smaller closer group who aren't willing to take on the burden and responsibility of 50-70 people.
These are 99% of the time that way simply because it's a communal thing. Ask anyone if they were the only one organizing def for their galaxy, if they would be happy with that. Answer is no. Smaller groups, in essance, eliminate the BC/DC position in favor of a simple group mentality. If that is your desire, than do away with alliances alltogether and go back to nothing but random galaxies and para/cluster wars.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 01:16   #40
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
These are 99% of the time that way simply because it's a communal thing. Ask anyone if they were the only one organizing def for their galaxy, if they would be happy with that. Answer is no. Smaller groups, in essance, eliminate the BC/DC position in favor of a simple group mentality. If that is your desire, than do away with alliances alltogether and go back to nothing but random galaxies and para/cluster wars.
Of course nobody wants to be the only one organizing defense for their galaxy, just like nobody wants to be the only one organizing defence for a full alliance, the latter being massively more work. So why is it that on the galaxy level people chip in and take over some of the load so it doesnt fall on one person while in alliances it is considered ok to call yourself a peon and demand that other people do all the work?

Perhaps its because at the galaxy level there is much less work to be done so people are more willing to chip in as chipping in means doing much less work. Perhaps it is also because smaller groups of people have a closer camaraderie and find doing work more fufilling. Either way it completely supports my contention that more people volunteer in smaller groups so there is no reason to think people wont step up in smaller alliances just because they don't step up in 70 person alliances.

Nothing would make me happier than taking alliances out of the code. The environment you describe where it is just planets and galaxies in clusters is exactly the environment where alliances naturally formed and thrived in the first place. PA should never have gotten into the alliance business.

Our discussion has gotten very off topic so we really should wrap it up. I do not know for sure if lower limits would create more alliances. I think it would but you might be right and you might not. What I do know for sure is that very few groups in PA right now are anywhere near 70 and reducing the alliance limit at least holds out the possibility of more competition and smaller more manageable groups leading to better organization. The status quo has only brought decline.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 04:35   #41
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Back on stats now.

Ok, I admittedly know sweet **** all about playing Zik. I've never tried them until a couple days ago with the r23 stats in speedgame.

Now, I'm trying them in the beta and quite like them...other than the fact their ability to steal Fi/Co seems...well, non-existant. Unless you have a ****ton of Corsairs/Cutlasses or teamup with a Fr Cath--or if you're very lucky, steal some BW.

Unless I'm just not getting it, I don't see the point in having a Co-roiding fleet if you can't effectively steal different Co and/or Fi. Again, this is new to me--I'm usually worried about killing ships, not trying to steal them. The Cutter is good enough for that purpose.

Their De fleet, coupled with Theives, rocks though. De-Terrans stand no chance whatsoever, especially once you start capping Pegs with which to dispatch their Harpies, thus saving more Theives from being shot at.


*Edit* I've capped some Dealers, and that has filled in the gap a little better for stealing Fi/Co. Still, it sucks to have to rely on a third-party ship, especially one that isn't very populous.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 08:03   #42
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Originally Posted by K-W
Of course nobody wants to be the only one organizing defense for their galaxy, just like nobody wants to be the only one organizing defence for a full alliance, the latter being massively more work. So why is it that on the galaxy level people chip in and take over some of the load so it doesnt fall on one person while in alliances it is considered ok to call yourself a peon and demand that other people do all the work?

Perhaps its because at the galaxy level there is much less work to be done so people are more willing to chip in as chipping in means doing much less work. Perhaps it is also because smaller groups of people have a closer camaraderie and find doing work more fufilling. Either way it completely supports my contention that more people volunteer in smaller groups so there is no reason to think people wont step up in smaller alliances just because they don't step up in 70 person alliances.

Nothing would make me happier than taking alliances out of the code. The environment you describe where it is just planets and galaxies in clusters is exactly the environment where alliances naturally formed and thrived in the first place. PA should never have gotten into the alliance business.

Our discussion has gotten very off topic so we really should wrap it up. I do not know for sure if lower limits would create more alliances. I think it would but you might be right and you might not. What I do know for sure is that very few groups in PA right now are anywhere near 70 and reducing the alliance limit at least holds out the possibility of more competition and smaller more manageable groups leading to better organization. The status quo has only brought decline.
The only reason gal def works as you're saying, and it doesn't for allys, is not because the pe0ns don't do anything, it's because in galaxies, it's much harder to screw things up. 60 people trying to organize def for themselves at the same time is insta fail. 10 people conversing over def organization is pretty simple.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 20:31   #43
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Well some people will some lucky\skilled\devious enough to steal proper anti de making them much harder to roid while they can still pick up free roids from the unlucky ones who dont steal. I know this is fairly usual, but it will be even more of this than normal.
How is skilled people doing better than idiots a bad thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
The model of a small group of people doing a ton of work to try and keep everyone else playing is not sustainable or desirable. Reducing the size of groups at least holds out the possibility of making work easier to share instead of continuing to burnout the few people still crazy enough to take on the workload of a larger alliance.
No one is making them lead a full size alliance. You're perfectly free to start an alliance of 50 people, or 30 people, or as much as you (and your fellow HCs, if you wish) think you can handle.
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 17:54   #44
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Originally Posted by Cochese
Now, I'm trying them in the beta and quite like them...other than the fact their ability to steal Fi/Co seems...well, non-existant. Unless you have a ****ton of Corsairs/Cutlasses or teamup with a Fr Cath--or if you're very lucky, steal some BW.

*Edit* I've capped some Dealers, and that has filled in the gap a little better for stealing Fi/Co. Still, it sucks to have to rely on a third-party ship, especially one that isn't very populous.
due to the big efficiency and xans low armour, your co fleet attacks xan, mostly in team up.
and if you have xan pods, in theory you can with corsairs attack ziks, with stolen banshees even more.
that is if co is your main attack fleet ofc...
if not, cutters are a def ship, rest is useless
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 23:28   #45
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Ziks usually have the trade off of either stealing nicely or capping roids. Of course it can happen that you accomplish both at the same time, but whenever I played zik I usually went for steal ships as defense mainly, and only used them on attack if it was newbie farming or fleet catches.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 02:08   #46
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Well some people will some lucky\skilled\devious enough to steal proper anti de making them much harder to roid while they can still pick up free roids from the unlucky ones who dont steal. I know this is fairly usual, but it will be even more of this than normal.

strange that its always the same dudes that are lucky round after round


but yeah you need skill to be that lucky hehe
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 11:56   #47
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
How is skilled people doing better than idiots a bad thing?


No one is making them lead a full size alliance. You're perfectly free to start an alliance of 50 people, or 30 people, or as much as you (and your fellow HCs, if you wish) think you can handle.

still leading even a small 30 man alliance takes alot of time and dedication, not many ppl are up for that
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 13:00   #48
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

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Originally Posted by Foxman
still leading even a small 30 man alliance takes alot of time and dedication, not many ppl are up for that
This is going off-topic, but: I disagree. It is up to the way the alliance is structured. A traditional, lienar-hierarchy style alliance certainly requires that dedication. An alliance that uses a scattered hierarchy does not really have trouble there, as responsibilites for success is shared between all members of the alliance.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 14:02   #49
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
still leading even a small 30 man alliance takes alot of time and dedication, not many ppl are up for that
But it should be clear that leading a 30 man alliance is less time consuming than leading a 70 man alliance, assuming they use the same system of leadership (because Heartless is right, leading a 30 man traditional alliance is probably more time consuming than "leading" a 100 man Ascended alliance).
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 14:40   #50
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Re: r25 Stats: Your Thoughts

Well it all depends on how complex the environment the alliance is in. If its napped to a bunch of alliances and has numerous pnaps, following up on friendly planets, getting players to pull and sorting out the mess that comes with such debacles ofc is timeconsuming.

On the other hand I wouldnt think running a midlevel stable alliance without much say politically and with the 'usual means of communication(i.e irc\webbie\bot) all set up shouldnt be TOO timeconsuming.
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