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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 14:01   #1
GReaper
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Hidden production and value

Until a few rounds ago it wasn't really possible to hide a production over a long time, however the new constructions with the possibility to have insanely long production times has changed things. I think this has caused a few problems.

Stockpiling and surprising your attacker with a large hidden production. A legitimate tactic maybe, however for the attacker this could become an absolute disaster with the loss of an entire attack fleet if the defender pulls this one off right. Attackers don't get salvage, so I'd say this is quite cruel on anyone who attacks and loses most of their fleet. Before it was fairly obvious, a planet scan before an attack and just before landing made it clear what they were spending resources on.

The other problem is the fact that the stockpiles are hidden and don't contribute to value. Players can hide a rather large amount of resources which normally contribute to value/score, reducing their score allows them to get more XP on attacks. Personally I'd say this is cheating the system a little bit, it's designed to allow small planets to attack larger targets.

Two possible suggestions include the previously suggested ability to view your targets production in some way, another one I'd recommend is to add production value into the value formula in some way. Maybe the value of the production which has been produced so far counts as fleet value (fleet cost /100), the part which remains to be produced could be counted as resources (resources/150).

At the moment it seems to me like that production system was changed a few rounds ago, yet the value/score system was never changed to compensate for it.
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 14:33   #2
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Re: Hidden production and value

There have been several other solutions suggested, such as:
- make factories produce part of their order each tick
- no more adding ships to existing orders
- recalculate the 'Production units' each tick based on total resouces spent for the total order
The problem is that whoever has to fix this apparantly doesn't see it as a problem worth solving.
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 14:46   #3
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Re: Hidden production and value

make each resource held by a planet, regardless in what capacity be held for the same value in terms of score points. so no more res/150 = score, it'd be /100. make prod count for score also for the same /100 etc. so when ships come out, the bonus is that it actually gives you something to use there and then; no more artificial use/abuse of bashlimits, xp gains and so forth. though, feudalism people will of course still get a nice gain in score over others of course (but so will unification) but don't let it be possible to let it be known what exactly is in prod because that just takes away an extra option of fun.
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 15:59   #4
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Re: Hidden production and value

I like that idea jer.
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 18:06   #5
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Re: Hidden production and value

speaking of rum, have you tried sailor jerrys?
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 18:44   #6
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Re: Hidden production and value

Nope, I stick with Cruzan dark for mixing, or Barbancourt (Haiti) for sipping (the 15 year, of course!)
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 19:14   #7
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Re: Hidden production and value

jer is right (this time), do what he says.
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Unread 24 Dec 2007, 19:46   #8
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Re: Hidden production and value

I find it retarded how an advanced unit scan on a planet is able to show what isn't there (e.g. on a mission), but can't detect what is (e.g. in production).
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Unread 25 Dec 2007, 15:10   #9
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Re: Hidden production and value

An alternative to jer's suggestion but in a similar vein and with similar results is; make the score from production get added once you've placed the order, not when the ships have been produced. thus, there is no benefit to having ships held in production as you've already incurred the score "penalty". But, you could still have held resources (ie, unspent) worth less, so stockpiling can continue to be a possibility and a strategic option; however you eliminate the stupidity over production (which i think should be the point).
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Unread 29 Dec 2007, 02:48   #10
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Re: Hidden production and value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
An alternative to jer's suggestion but in a similar vein and with similar results is; make the score from production get added once you've placed the order, not when the ships have been produced. thus, there is no benefit to having ships held in production as you've already incurred the score "penalty". But, you could still have held resources (ie, unspent) worth less, so stockpiling can continue to be a possibility and a strategic option; however you eliminate the stupidity over production (which i think should be the point).
You're an idiot. That IS what jer said.
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Unread 29 Dec 2007, 03:07   #11
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Re: Hidden production and value

tone it down a bit eh
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Unread 29 Dec 2007, 10:21   #12
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Re: Hidden production and value

Its not Kenny, well not all of it. I actually like UNs idea better(though its basically the same as jer), making it so that you have to beef up on sec centers and population on cov ops aswell as the long prod time is a good penalty for keeping your value lower by having resources stocked.
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Unread 29 Dec 2007, 11:32   #13
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Re: Hidden production and value

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Originally Posted by isildurx
Its not Kenny, well not all of it. I actually like UNs idea better(though its basically the same as jer), making it so that you have to beef up on sec centers and population on cov ops aswell as the long prod time is a good penalty for keeping your value lower by having resources stocked.
The bit I highlighted in bold was.

If you read what jer said, it was exactly what UN said, but put more (dare I say it) intelligently.

And stockpiling would still have the benefit of having a bucketload of resources to spend on specific ships, depending on what inc you get. That'd be the purpose of stockpiling, none of that 'keeping your value lower' nonsense. So given that there'd still be a point to stockpiling, what jer said didn't remove the need for security centers or the option under population. If you want your value to be lower, go out and enjoy the sunlight more often.
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Unread 30 Dec 2007, 02:25   #14
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Re: Hidden production and value

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
speaking of rum, have you tried sailor jerrys?
I have, and its great

Anyways vaguely on topic but a different point, if you are smart and attacking a planet you may suspect has hidden prod then a quick look through their tick history on sandmans will tell you what you need to know..
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Unread 30 Dec 2007, 02:54   #15
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Re: Hidden production and value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
You're an idiot. That IS what jer said.
Yes, i am an idiot. However, there is a difference between what jer said and the alteration to his idea that i suggested.

Essentially, the difference is that he held all resources to be the same; stockpiled resources = spent resources. However, you can spend your resources on things other than ships, plus my suggestion still permits you to stockpile if you so desire; however there is no benefit to holding ships/score in perpetual production.

So, very similar, but they'll work a little differently. I think, anyway, given that i'm an idiot.
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Unread 30 Dec 2007, 11:06   #16
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Re: Hidden production and value

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElAlan
I have, and its great

Anyways vaguely on topic but a different point, if you are smart and attacking a planet you may suspect has hidden prod then a quick look through their tick history on sandmans will tell you what you need to know..
Why should sandmans be a necessity to play planetarion? Your method is flawed anyway, if for example a planet crashed and spent in the same tick, and had that value hidden for a long time. This is assuming its more than 72 ticks away and you can't news scan.
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Unread 30 Dec 2007, 11:33   #17
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Re: Hidden production and value

Crashing is optional. Spending the tick before you cap roids works equally well.
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Unread 30 Dec 2007, 15:10   #18
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Re: Hidden production and value

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Why should sandmans be a necessity to play planetarion? Your method is flawed anyway, if for example a planet crashed and spent in the same tick, and had that value hidden for a long time. This is assuming its more than 72 ticks away and you can't news scan.
because PA sux and it doesn't have more or less necessary tools incorporated into the game
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