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Unread 25 May 2007, 10:56   #101
Gio2k
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Incidentally, i'd say the reason CT and Angels are hitting Ascendancy at the moment is not because they are competing with you for 2nd place, but because some of your members have managed (once again ) to infuriate said alliances.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:00   #102
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

they are actually trying to secure 2nd place, they are the type of alliances to do so
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:01   #103
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Incidentally, i'd say the reason CT and Angels are hitting Ascendancy at the moment is not because they are competing with you for 2nd place, but because some of your members have managed (once again ) to infuriate said alliances.
Furious angels, the weaker generation.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:01   #104
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane
It's a retirement home for veterans .
who said anything about retiring? we've consistently had a lot of top rankers since our conception.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:13   #105
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Incidentally, i'd say the reason CT and Angels are hitting Ascendancy at the moment is not because they are competing with you for 2nd place, but because some of your members have managed (once again ) to infuriate said alliances.
Anyone infuriated by anything online should be donkey slapped.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:22   #106
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Angels aren't going to do very well securing 2nd place by hitting the alliance below them while they remain in 3rd.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:30   #107
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

They might outscore the contestant.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 11:48   #108
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Incidentally, i'd say the reason CT and Angels are hitting Ascendancy at the moment is not because they are competing with you for 2nd place, but because some of your members have managed (once again ) to infuriate said alliances.
I am amused. Seriously. Just because it's typical for those groups of gamers to not do whats best in their gameplay interest but what is needed to satisfy their hurt egos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
They might outscore the contestant.
No really, I rarely heard better jokes than this one.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 12:40   #109
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
who said anything about retiring? we've consistently had a lot of top rankers since our conception.
I know, don't really remember why I said that but nm.

As for Ascendancy itself it has a lot of top 100 members as we all know. My question is how does that come about, whereas Wp have a lot of top200 players and is the #1 alliance in score rather than the seemingly top heavy Ascendancy*. Did Ascendancy top scorers just get a lot of defence from a very active alliance this round, or were there members of the alliance who may not have been very active but 3 fleeted def most of the time?

*Could be completely wrong but I was under the impression most of your memberbase is in the top 100 or outside top 200.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 12:50   #110
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

9 t20, 20 t100, 24 t200. This actually pretty much corresponds to what I said earlier about 30 odd active planets who played most of the round.


Also I don't think we had a single player intag who could be classified as a def planet. If anything the higher your score the more likely to have sent more def fleets you are.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 15:30   #111
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
and i'm sure it wouldnt take three alliances to do that. just one with some organisation, if anybody can be bothered.
Someone's trying to teach Ascendancy how to do proper suicides right now, if that's what you mean.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 17:18   #112
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Someone's trying to teach Ascendancy how to do proper suicides right now, if that's what you mean.
Sorry, what, huh? Ct suicided 3 mln+ value on Asc planets today? Nah, Ct are pro! They would never do that!
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Unread 25 May 2007, 18:03   #113
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
It's actually the third night in a row or so, but if they targetted you guys the same way as us then I can understand why WP wasn't taken down
What? This is the first nite Angels have hit Asc since Game asked for that little 'avoidence' of not doing it again a few days back. Where the hell you got this conclusion ill never know. So to simply quote the title of this thread 'correct me if im wrong' i just did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Infact CT/Angels/Vengeance did a bit of teaming up last night. I find it so amusing that when Angels couldn't take us alone they had to turn to CT for help. And then when the two of them couldn't make a dent they had to ask Vgn to help. So now all 3 of them have given it a shot. Guys, are you not ashamed that it takes 3 of you? I mean, in all seriousness now, isn't this pretty embarrassing? There wasn't even this much effort put in to taking Wolfpack down. I suppose that alone says it all.
Now Achiles, you have amused me with some of your posts this round. Tbh we didnt have to try and take you on alone. Its strange how many alliances dont like the fact you come onto these boards (asc members) ranting all round and pissing people off. Tbh Angels played for first. We of course failed. Now i am having fun till the end of the round. I couldnt give a toss about second place. Why would Angels Attack with CT (whos above us) and hit you if we wanted second place? Amusing how so many in this thread claim we are hitting you for 'playing for second place' Its laughable. Simple answer is we (Angels) are hitting you becuase we have nothing left to gain other then fun. And as your on these boards every 5 mins crtisising us, i thought it would be fun to give you guys some 'fun' till the end of round. And according to your post above your having fun as your finding it amusing. So the mission is a success. As far as CT and VGN are concerned, they wanted to join probably becuase of their hatred for you. I doubt it has anything to do with all needing each other to take you guys on. And there was (as said above) more alliances hitting pack then this. So please use better intel Achiles. (Plus the fact the day before a lot of asc took angels roids, maybe thats why we have targetted you? Just a thought)
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Unread 25 May 2007, 18:20   #114
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm not bitching dude, I find it genuinely funny.
Who're you fooling? it was a poorly disguised whine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Gosu's only reason for landing the fleetcatch was to prevent Caj from winning the round and give a chance to Agony instead.

Besides, T2 rankrace -> LOL.
To be fair, it was on the 2nd last day or so, on the last day Destiny finished only a couple of million behind CT, so the FC gave Destiny more of a chance at the #1 spot.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 18:40   #115
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Who're you fooling? it was a poorly disguised whine.


To be fair, it was on the 2nd last day or so, on the last day Destiny finished only a couple of million behind CT, so the FC gave Destiny more of a chance at the #1 spot.
who cares about that now? its bygones by a mile now
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Unread 25 May 2007, 19:54   #116
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
What? This is the first nite Angels have hit Asc since Game asked for that little 'avoidence' of not doing it again a few days back. Where the hell you got this conclusion ill never know. So to simply quote the title of this thread 'correct me if im wrong' i just did.
Afaik this is right. We were having a little mutual planet targeting with Angels until Game and Assassin spoke and we let off eachother.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 21:03   #117
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Tbh Angels played for first. We of course failed.
Well you will fail with that attitude. If you really stretch your imagination, could you imagine Ascendancy coming close enough to Pack to fight for it? If so, surely you can see that it's not impossible for CT or Angels to win. Obviously that's only true if either alliance goes a little out of their way to manipulate it so.

Playing for first isn't only about taking the win if it's laid on a ****ing plate for you. It's about seeing opportunities like that and taking them.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 21:46   #118
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Defence was acknowledged to be of far greater utility this round than last. As such, because we don't like getting out of bed at 3am that much the idea of ascendancy-heavy galaxies was reused. (
I hope you are not saying that you were some of those people who set up 20 planets till you land in one of the "right" gals - kinda having private gals there..
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Unread 25 May 2007, 21:56   #119
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

No, we exile a lot and time it so slots in galaxies with ascendancy bps are open.
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Unread 25 May 2007, 22:42   #120
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, we exile a lot and time it so slots in galaxies with ascendancy bps are open.
poor pig..
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Unread 26 May 2007, 00:16   #121
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane
I know, don't really remember why I said that but nm.

As for Ascendancy itself it has a lot of top 100 members as we all know. My question is how does that come about, whereas Wp have a lot of top200 players and is the #1 alliance in score rather than the seemingly top heavy Ascendancy*. Did Ascendancy top scorers just get a lot of defence from a very active alliance this round, or were there members of the alliance who may not have been very active but 3 fleeted def most of the time?

*Could be completely wrong but I was under the impression most of your memberbase is in the top 100 or outside top 200.
this isn't just 'this round' - ascendancy had the most planets in top 100 in the last round too, as well as r16. in r19, only exilition had more top 100's than us i believe. keep in mind: r16 47 members, 24 t100. r17/18 we barely had over 3/4 player. r19 20~ members, 8 t100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kila
To be fair, it was on the 2nd last day or so, on the last day Destiny finished only a couple of million behind CT, so the FC gave Destiny more of a chance at the #1 spot.
stop talking about things you don't have a clue about, yet again.
1/ the fc was by gosu/vgn on a destiny - nothing to do with CT
2/ the fc was purely based on desire to give agony the win as a planet
3/ the fc resulted in both destiny and vgn dropping enough score to drop them off #1 race
4/ ct lost score via cardinal leaving tag due to ct hc not letting cardinal hit caj / 2.5
5/ then, destiny recruited a couple of TINY planets to try and get as close as possible but to no avail
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Unread 26 May 2007, 00:33   #122
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Tbh Angels played for first. We of course failed. Now i am having fun till the end of the round. I couldnt give a toss about second place. Why would Angels Attack with CT (whos above us) and hit you if we wanted second place? Amusing how so many in this thread claim we are hitting you for 'playing for second place' Its laughable. Simple answer is we (Angels) are hitting you becuase we have nothing left to gain other then fun. And as your on these boards every 5 mins crtisising us, i thought it would be fun to give you guys some 'fun' till the end of round.
That's a shit attitude. You will never win because you think like this. Learning to accept criticism from some of the actually great tacticians in PA such as Rob, Jester, bwtmc et al. could only help your alliance. Actually taking people like chika seriously is only testament to total idiocy. But go on, crash your fleets on us in petty vindictiveness instead. You guys will go far that way.

Quote:
And according to your post above your having fun as your finding it amusing. So the mission is a success. As far as CT and VGN are concerned, they wanted to join probably becuase of their hatred for you. I doubt it has anything to do with all needing each other to take you guys on.
Despite the presence of spastics like kila who seem to think they know me well enough to claim otherwise I have enjoyed this round of PA more than any other for a long time. It's been hard fought and I'm only sorry it's not longer so that Ascendancy had a chance to catch WP on our own. We would all* still have a chance if it wasn't for the fact that you guys lack either lack the bottle to keep on fighting or are too proud to work with Ascendancy cause we upset you on AD.

*By this I really mean Asc/Angels. The only thing CT are good for now is the headless chicken dance and crashing fleet like FCrew (no offence intended to FCrew - standard PA analogy).
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Unread 26 May 2007, 15:03   #123
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Gentlemen, have we not had this discussion before? Is it not wildly offtopic?

This thread is about r21.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 15:08   #124
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
Ascendancy seems to suit its members. Its members (the ones I know are of a certain type; the type that really dont like being told what to do, but they actually do well for themselves playing as THEY want to play. Which, no matter which way you look at it, is fair play. Its an alliance full of intelligent roid whores.
Putting this thread back on track before it's fagged up completely by the jer/kila tiff.

When I was Ascendancy (I'm still around and chat there, but haven't played for a couple of rounds due to work and stuff) the main thing I noticed was that defence wasn't obligatory. You did it because you wanted to.

In other alliances, the incentive to defend is to get defence (through defence points). The motivation to defend others is incredibly Taylorist and quantitative. You had no knowledge of who you were defending, and if they'd ever defend you in return. You hoped that what went around would come around, but it often wouldn't and you'd find yourself uncovered and feeling bitter about it.

In Ascendancy you trust everyone and chat and know them. There aren't enough people for it to be anonymous, and it isn't just a case of "defend 1:2:3 eta 7 please" it is "hey jer send me some of your viper please you little faggot" "ok". You know you'd send defence as they'll do the same in return.

In terms of motivation to play the game (psychologically speaking) it's incredibly impressive and broke out of the mould* which alliances had been following since the days of Fury and Synthetic_Sid. He was a pioneer, but the game has changed and people have changed. Ascendancy adapted.

Having said this, and circle-jerked Ascendancy to hell, I think their members should stop bigging themselves up on these forums. Noone likes a bad winner. Be humble, guys.



*elvis and his crew have also followed this pattern but as they always were members of other alliances it wasn't as noticeable (except that those players consistently did well)
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Unread 26 May 2007, 15:09   #125
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

wow i sure like bold fonts
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Unread 26 May 2007, 18:29   #126
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Having said this, and circle-jerked Ascendancy to hell, I think their members should stop bigging themselves up on these forums. Noone likes a bad winner. Be humble, guys.

The entire point of this thread was not to "big up" the win. It was simply to put it out there that "hey, you actually have accomplished **** all. It was us."
Sadly it only takes half of a disagreement for me to do a full-frontal "IN YOUR FACE", as some people need that for things to sink in.*
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Unread 26 May 2007, 18:51   #127
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Having said this, and circle-jerked Ascendancy to hell, I think their members should stop bigging themselves up on these forums. Noone likes a bad winner. Be humble, guys.
In the Alliance Rankings, the only winner is the one that gets #1. No offence to Ascendancy, but doesn't look like they're going to get that.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 18:55   #128
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

in one way it's a real shame that the round was short and ascendancy ended up spurning a second round they should have won. nevertheless, nothing to detract from a reasonably comfortable win for wolfpack to be honest.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 18:58   #129
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
The entire point of this thread was not to "big up" the win. It was simply to put it out there that "hey, you actually have accomplished **** all. It was us."
Sadly it only takes half of a disagreement for me to do a full-frontal "IN YOUR FACE", as some people need that for things to sink in.*
I think i speak for 3 quaters of this community if not maybe all when i tell you to shut the hell up. Now i know some say of course your having your usal fun chika, but tbh your now just becoming anoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That's a shit attitude. You will never win because you think like this. Learning to accept criticism from some of the actually great tacticians in PA such as Rob, Jester, bwtmc et al. could only help your alliance. Actually taking people like chika seriously is only testament to total idiocy. But go on, crash your fleets on us in petty vindictiveness instead. You guys will go far that way.
How is that a shit attitude? There was no way in hell Angels as Ass said were going to catch Pack in that lengh of time. Hes been realistic and decided to obviously do somthing for what was left of the round. And learning to take cricism from some of the great tactions of the game? Now ill admit they are great players. And maybe even great leaders at the current state of the game. (what i mean by that statement cleary is that at the moment they are saw as the best tactions, mainly because there simply isny anyone around now else that sticks out, same with general players) In the old days these guys wouldnt of stuck out so much. As i beleive their were a lot more quailty HC and a lot more quailty players back in the day. But the simple fact is no alliance HC likes to be told where they are going wrong in a fashion which insults them. Especially not from people who dont lead by example themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Despite the presence of spastics like kila who seem to think they know me well enough to claim otherwise I have enjoyed this round of PA more than any other for a long time. It's been hard fought and I'm only sorry it's not longer so that Ascendancy had a chance to catch WP on our own. We would all* still have a chance if it wasn't for the fact that you guys lack either lack the bottle to keep on fighting or are too proud to work with Ascendancy cause we upset you on AD.

*By this I really mean Asc/Angels. The only thing CT are good for now is the headless chicken dance and crashing fleet like FCrew (no offence intended to FCrew - standard PA analogy).
I have to admit it has been an interesting round. Although it seems there is a clear cut winner tbh in pack, there have been some great activity with many alliances etc. Havent saw that in a while. But whats this about? We have come to the same situation again me and you had in another thread. I havent saw once where your HC team have offered on these boards to help Angels and CT take down pack. Although you have claimed several times they have. Where? Fact is, Angels or CT are not to proud to work with Asc, its the fact Asc still claim to hit what they want when they want attitude and dont offer to work with them. What was it assman said in another thread? Game offered to help by taking one pack gal? Please. I know a lot of members in Asc well. Ill admit myself your full of quality members there is no doubting that at all, dont make it look like im taking digs at you as an alliance as im not i have all respect. What im anoyed about is how your blaming everyone else around you for allowing Pack to win, but didnt do anything yourselves to prevent it either.

But amusingly im in CT. But according to members of pack, they have even admitted the toughest alliance this round for them (giving them incoming) Was Angels which im quite suprised about. So respect to them in that sense then. But overall yes its been a good round.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 19:01   #130
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
"hey, you actually have accomplished **** all. It was us."
So you're trying to say that even though you've managed to dominate WP you've still managed to lose the game? Yeah stand up and be proud. Really, congratulations.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 19:11   #131
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

You probably should have talked to more than just game Assassin. While he's perfectly free to talk to other alliances you're equally free to come and talk to someone else. This is how we ride and this is how we're different to other alliances.

The point about great tacticians is largely mindless inaccurate pedantry and some sort of bizzare ad hominem but even if they're merely qualified for membership in the ranks of "great tacticians left in PA" instead of "great tacticians of PA" you'd probably still be doing well to listen to what they have to say.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 19:14   #132
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
So you're trying to say that even though you've managed to dominate WP you've still managed to lose the game? Yeah stand up and be proud. Really, congratulations.
I wouldn't say Ascendancy have dominated wolfpack. I doubt we've hit them much this round and on not a single night did we planet-target them. Realistically in military terms I doubt either wolfpack or ascendancy would fight it that easy to defeat the other. Then again it's not a wargame is it? It's a game of score accumulation.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 19:21   #133
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willzzz
But according to members of pack, they have even admitted the toughest alliance this round for them (giving them incoming) Was Angels which im quite suprised about. So respect to them in that sense then. But overall yes its been a good round.

Angels first without a doubt. Then ameth and vgn next i guess and ct a lot further down list part from maybe one night
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Unread 26 May 2007, 20:45   #134
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I wouldn't say Ascendancy have dominated wolfpack. I doubt we've hit them much this round and on not a single night did we planet-target them. Realistically in military terms I doubt either wolfpack or ascendancy would fight it that easy to defeat the other. Then again it's not a wargame is it? It's a game of score accumulation.
It's not something I necessarily believe, I was just looking into what Chika seemed to be saying and that seems to be his conclusion. I'd say there was no domination. Although of course, WP had no need to dominate Ascendancy.

I think we have to view war in terms of score accumulation. In pa, it's a tool to that end.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 20:46   #135
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willzzz
How is that a shit attitude? There was no way in hell Angels as Ass said were going to catch Pack in that lengh of time. Hes been realistic and decided to obviously do somthing for what was left of the round.
I'm afraid that you are factually wrong. By definition the attitude of Assassin/Angels is one of cynicism. A realist would hold the view of it being tough to win the round at this point but still possible. I am a realist, Angels are cynics (I mean it kindly guys) and you are a voyeur with a vague half notion of what is happening. Oh sorry, I forgot, you have a co-ords list. You must know every political nuance of the round in that case.

Quote:
And learning to take cricism from some of the great tactions of the game? Now ill admit they are great players. And maybe even great leaders at the current state of the game. (what i mean by that statement cleary is that at the moment they are saw as the best tactions, mainly because there simply isny anyone around now else that sticks out, same with general players) In the old days these guys wouldnt of stuck out so much.
JBG has already addressed this quite well but I am also curious to know how you can claim this given the fact that you have never worked with any of the people I mentioned? People speak of the ego of Ascendancy but we don't seem to have a patch on you man. Why don't you sign up for the free round and show us how it's done then?

Quote:
I haven't saw once where your HC team have offered on these boards to help Angels and CT take down pack. Although you have claimed several times they have. Where? Fact is, Angels or CT are not to proud to work with Asc, its the fact Asc still claim to hit what they want when they want attitude and don't offer to work with them.
Again you are stuck in a simplistic mindset and not at all aware of how Ascendancy works. You also display great ignorance about what actually happened. There are people here that could have been approached that would have helped. I have stated clearly, several times, that I was prepared to put in considerable time to any effort to take WP down. Relevant people knew that and chose not to ask. They gave various reasons but the truth is that even a week and a half ago they had given up. You didn't know any of this because you are not relevant. Important things happen on irc, not these forums, that's why you don't see them posted here either.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 21:11   #136
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm afraid that you are factually wrong. By definition the attitude of Assassin/Angels is one of cynicism. A realist would hold the view of it being tough to win the round at this point but still possible. I am a realist, Angels are cynics (I mean it kindly guys) and you are a voyeur with a vague half notion of what is happening. Oh sorry, I forgot, you have a co-ords list. You must know every political nuance of the round in that case.
It still amuses me you claim you have to have a planet to know the pollitical status of a round Achiles. Anyone with a brain, keeping in touch with people inside of every alliance and of course an understanding from playing PA many times in the same sort of situations. For example, in your one post a few days back you claimed Angels and co put more effort into one nites targetting into asc then into pack. Although i knew every alliance that was involved in hitting pack. Does that mean my intel without playing the game is superior to yours? No it doesnt. Just means i have eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
JBG has already addressed this quite well but I am also curious to know how you can claim this given the fact that you have never worked with any of the people I mentioned? People speak of the ego of Ascendancy but we don't seem to have a patch on you man. Why don't you sign up for the free round and show us how it's done then?
Did you not read my post at all? Never once did i claim they wasnt good tactions. Not once did i claim they were not good players or good leaders. And i said i have respect for a lot of the members within Asc. I think your taking some of my posts quite wrong. I was simply making a statement which a lot of made in previous rounds. Fact is in the past we had a lot of top alliances, alliances such as Fury, VtS, Xanadu (the list goes on) But now we dont. we have one semi good alliance, and several which are saw as average. That isnt meant to be insulting, as we still have a lot of the old harcore players, especially of course a lot in asc. (hence why i said in my post previous i have a lot of respect for them) Im just saying they can now stand out more with a playerbase which is falling away. Has that cleared this up or do i have to post another reply shortly with the same points again? And Achiles i dont have an ego. I was one of the shittest HCs in VtS there ever was. I was idle, ill openly admit that myself. But i like to think i have an open mind when it comes to certain situations. And i dont like to see people dictating stuff and claiming stuff like 'do as we say but not as we do' Hope ive made myself a little clearer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Again you are stuck in a simplistic mindset and not at all aware of how Ascendancy works. You also display great ignorance about what actually happened. There are people here that could have been approached that would have helped. I have stated clearly, several times, that I was prepared to put in considerable time to any effort to take WP down. Relevant people knew that and chose not to ask. They gave various reasons but the truth is that even a week and a half ago they had given up. You didn't know any of this because you are not relevant. Important things happen on irc, not these forums, thats why you don't see them posted here.
Again. 'People could of been approached' Achiles the first ever post i posted to Asc was the fact all i ever hear is you guys critising alliances for 'allowing' Pack to win. But the simple question then which is what i put forward was 'why doesnt asc lead by example?' Your a group of old and experienced players. You have even said yourself your lead by some of the best tactions left in PA. So why not use that experience and organise somthing. Why do you have to wait to be approached? You keep throwing this back at me about the fact you guys were there ready to strike if somone came to you. Why not go to them and strike by leading? We are now going back in circles as i said all this in my first ever post addressing Asc and i got spammed by the usal forum people with riddles. And yes im full aware of how irc works also. Forgive me for apparently been seen as not knowing how pollitics works.. i must be a noob. Reason why i mentioned the forums was in one of your posts you openly stated several people from asc had oppenly posted on the forums you were ready for people to approach you. I have only ever saw yourself say this. No one else. hence why i mentioned the forums bit. But anyway. I can see me and you can post like this all day. Simple fact i think people who are old skool players, who critise others on how they work should of put more effort in themselves. Is that so hard to understand as i feel i am not speaking in riddles surely?

Correct i dont know how you work. Ive heard you dont like to organise things etc. But simple fact is if you guys dont want to bring everyone togther to hit Pack, then dont tell people they needed to come to you guys or critise the pollitics in how they played the round.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 21:49   #137
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

It's like I said above, I think you simply lack an understanding of how Ascendancy works. We're not like any of the other PA alliances. While I suppose Jester/Rob/JBG and whoever else is actually HC (I honestly don't know, I often wonder if they do) are our spiritual leaders they don't give orders. If someone in Asc wants something done they either do it themselves or they may aswell forget about it. That goes for attacks, defence, politics, everything.

While this is an awesome way to play PA on an individual level it does have weaknesses as regards our political coherency. Simply put we don't have any, which is probably why we spent the round retaliating against whichever alliance had tried to hit us last. For the record though more people than myself made the effort to reach out but there was simply more interest in hitting our fat galaxies than in working with us.

p.s. It was never my intention to imply that you are, as you put it, a 'noob' but I do feel that you are unaware of many attempts made by various people in Ascendancy to change the political situation this round. The simple truth is that Angels and CT had chosen a track to ride along and for whatever reason found themselves either unable or unwilling to get off.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 22:01   #138
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Now that post i thank you for. I thank you for making it clear to myself of how Asc work. And now i can go back to my usal idling

But i do agree although i didnt play it (Which will be strange for me to say tbh) it looked to be an interesting round. So well done to all alliances this round etc.
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Unread 26 May 2007, 23:20   #139
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
When I was Ascendancy (I'm still around and chat there, but haven't played for a couple of rounds due to work and stuff) the main thing I noticed was that defence wasn't obligatory. You did it because you wanted to.
What I wonder about is at what point this becomes unfeasible? How many people before this doesn't work? 50? 100? 200?

I want the alliance limit removed, but I'm not sure my alliance would survive it if it recruited past that critical point. Maybe cliques would form that defended eachother. Maybe the system would fail as the group became so large that people wouldn't know who else was a regular defender anymore. Or maybe people would figure out a new way to do things that would work.

One of the interesting things about being in Ascendancy is watching these things play out. Our hierarchy never imposed any sort of defense system on the alliance, people started sending eachother defense when defending was a better strategy than attacking. So in rounds like 16 or 20, no one really bothers sending defense, because attacking is so much more beneficial and people realize that. Whereas in rounds like 19 or 21 (this round), people realize that defense is a valuable commodity and adjust their play accordingly.

I realize I'm crawling up our collective anus a bit here, and I'm not trying to say that other alliances are shit with their defense systems, I'm just saying that it's interesting how this contradicts the assumption that defense point systems, procedure and hierarchies are necessary. You may say that this is due to our exceptional players, but not all our players are named players. There are not a few people who have joined from being galmates that Ascendancy members felt would be good recruits*. Some are new players, who have only been in one or two alliances, others have been around longer and find a home with us.

*By whatever criteria they decided. Personally, I don't consider how much score a player's planet will generate when deciding whether to sponsor someone for Ascendancy. I don't consider their potential to learn in future rounds. I just consider whether they're fun to be around. That's it. Other people in Ascendancy have other standards, but mine are ridiculously low.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 03:10   #140
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Other people in Ascendancy have other standards, but mine are ridiculously low.
That's why I got in right?
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Unread 27 May 2007, 08:56   #141
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I want the alliance limit removed, but I'm not sure my alliance would survive it if it recruited past that critical point. Maybe cliques would form that defended eachother. Maybe the system would fail as the group became so large that people wouldn't know who else was a regular defender anymore. Or maybe people would figure out a new way to do things that would work.
Without meaning to derail the thread or anything there is actually a very interesting book entitled 'The Wisdom of Crowds' which covers this topic pretty extensively, if not quite directly. Can't remember the author offhand though.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 15:27   #142
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
chances for taking down the #1 are rather slim atm, but why not teach another ally with a seriously oversized ego a lesson instead?
and i'm sure it wouldnt take three alliances to do that. just one with some organisation, if anybody can be bothered.
I know I quoted this before, but after tonight I feel urged to add something:
If you want to "teach another ally with a seriously oversized ego a lesson", why do you guys keep donating score to us?
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Unread 27 May 2007, 15:47   #143
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
What I wonder about is at what point this becomes unfeasible? How many people before this doesn't work? 50? 100? 200?
150, apparently.

Quote:
One of the interesting things about being in Ascendancy is watching these things play out. Our hierarchy never imposed any sort of defense system on the alliance, people started sending eachother defense when defending was a better strategy than attacking. So in rounds like 16 or 20, no one really bothers sending defense, because attacking is so much more beneficial and people realize that. Whereas in rounds like 19 or 21 (this round), people realize that defense is a valuable commodity and adjust their play accordingly.
This is a good example of spontaneous order. It's certainly very interesting to watch this work in practice, and to watch how the community manages to organise without any real leadership as such. One very good thing about this system is that it avoids the possibility that a misguided leader could force an alliance to follow an incorrect strategy; if we tried that in Ascendancy, people would simply ignore us and follow a better strategy.

Quote:
I realize I'm crawling up our collective anus a bit here, and I'm not trying to say that other alliances are shit with their defense systems, I'm just saying that it's interesting how this contradicts the assumption that defense point systems, procedure and hierarchies are necessary. You may say that this is due to our exceptional players, but not all our players are named players. There are not a few people who have joined from being galmates that Ascendancy members felt would be good recruits*. Some are new players, who have only been in one or two alliances, others have been around longer and find a home with us.
I think similar effects would occur elsewhere. What I find interesting is that people have no trouble in figuring out who defends and who doesn't, without a points system to do it for them. The complete laissez-faire approach has actually produced an efficient system whereby those who contribute a lot tend to get more back, and those who contribute least also receive the least. The non-hierarchical nature of the alliance means that it's impossible for anyone to get special favours, for example by friendship with the officers or HC. I think this generally leads to a healthier, more active community where people are much more proactive and do not require leaders to tell them what to do. Other alliances seem to stop functioning entirely once their officers/HC give up (which is what seems to have happened to CT and Angels this round).

The reputation-based system also has the benefit of utilising tacit knowledge, things that individuals are aware of but cannot express in a systematic way. If I know that someone is a good defender, I will defend them; if they merely have high defence points, I am not so sure that they deserve defence. This was always a problem in 1up, because certain people could cheat the system slightly by only sending defence during the day, when recalls would happen early. Often a person could attack with 2 fleets and still get 3-4 defence points per day by sending/recalling during off-peak times, especially if they happened to be an officer or HC (mentioning no names, of course ). In comparison, the people who would wake up at 4am just to send defence got one point. A reputation-based system ensures that people can make subjective measurements of the behaviour of others, which can make use of a lot more information than a simple def point system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Without meaning to derail the thread or anything there is actually a very interesting book entitled 'The Wisdom of Crowds' which covers this topic pretty extensively, if not quite directly. Can't remember the author offhand though.
James Surowiecki (amazon link). Richard Dawkins covered some similar ground in The Selfish Gene, and the concept of decentralised organisation has been around for a long time within liberal-leaning philosophy (Hume, Smith, Mill etc.) and economics (Hayek, Friedman, Mises etc.).
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Last edited by ComradeRob; 27 May 2007 at 16:02.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 16:48   #144
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I know I quoted this before, but after tonight I feel urged to add something:
If you want to "teach another ally with a seriously oversized ego a lesson", why do you guys keep donating score to us?
i would like to dirrect your attention to my value history. ive been crashing since week two this round, due to lack of time to play for real. my playing style does not represent the CT standard for this round. and my opinions are my own, and don't include any other individuals or alliances.
the message i wanted to convey is that you would not be immune to incs or being roided to the ground, if anybody would show interest in it.
it seems though that the only people willing to get anything going that wouldnt necessarely result in an immediate gain for their planet are actually in your tag.
so unless someone influential enough and with a lot of spare time on his hands finds out that he has a personal aggenda with asc, its sad to say you ppl will most likely cruise through the round with no real problems just with the value and the stockpiles you hoarded during the angels/ct/wp wars + efficient ingal def.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:15   #145
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

well asc didnt really cruise throu the round m8 we have had tons with incommings so far, the only diffent is that you guys lands on def more often than f-crew even
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:16   #146
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob

This is a good example of spontaneous order. It's certainly very interesting to watch this work in practice, and to watch how the community manages to organise without any real leadership as such. One very good thing about this system is that it avoids the possibility that a misguided leader could force an alliance to follow an incorrect strategy; if we tried that in Ascendancy, people would simply ignore us and follow a better strategy.



I think similar effects would occur elsewhere. What I find interesting is that people have no trouble in figuring out who defends and who doesn't, without a points system to do it for them. The complete laissez-faire approach has actually produced an efficient system whereby those who contribute a lot tend to get more back, and those who contribute least also receive the least. The non-hierarchical nature of the alliance means that it's impossible for anyone to get special favours, for example by friendship with the officers or HC. I think this generally leads to a healthier, more active community where people are much more proactive and do not require leaders to tell them what to do. Other alliances seem to stop functioning entirely once their officers/HC give up (which is what seems to have happened to CT and Angels this round).

The reputation-based system also has the benefit of utilising tacit knowledge, things that individuals are aware of but cannot express in a systematic way. If I know that someone is a good defender, I will defend them; if they merely have high defence points, I am not so sure that they deserve defence. This was always a problem in 1up, because certain people could cheat the system slightly by only sending defence during the day, when recalls would happen early. Often a person could attack with 2 fleets and still get 3-4 defence points per day by sending/recalling during off-peak times, especially if they happened to be an officer or HC (mentioning no names, of course ). In comparison, the people who would wake up at 4am just to send defence got one point. A reputation-based system ensures that people can make subjective measurements of the behaviour of others, which can make use of a lot more information than a simple def point system.
You are putting way to much into your theory. First of all, players in an alliance are mostly known as being good based a lot on their activity, TGV who has been operating with extra points for being called at nights to send def for example, and we have also tried to give bonus points for being up at odd hours at nights. The problem with a "reputationsystem" like the one you show, is that in an environment where you are new, you don't tend to be shouting the loudest, ergo you get less def. Having a dc department that handles defensecalls and prioritizes the defense in a efficient way has and will always be an important backbone of an alliance, and then there is always the classical comment: What might work for you, might not work for others. There are no real good answers to how to define how an alliance should act, as alliances are as different as night and day, and some more than others.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:39   #147
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
i would like to dirrect your attention to my value history. ive been crashing since week two this round, due to lack of time to play for real. my playing style does not represent the CT standard for this round.
Actually I think you'd find it rather does.


Like all alliances we are of course not immune to roid loss and I don't think anyone in Ascendancy has claimed otherwise.
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Unread 27 May 2007, 17:42   #148
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
You are putting way to much into your theory.
I would not be so vain as to call it my theory; far smarter people than I thought of these things.

Quote:
First of all, players in an alliance are mostly known as being good based a lot on their activity, TGV who has been operating with extra points for being called at nights to send def for example, and we have also tried to give bonus points for being up at odd hours at nights.
How about bonus points for people who cancel an attack to send defence? Or use their last fleet slot? Or sacrifice roids lost at their own planet to defend someone else? There are too many possibilities for them to be reduced down to a single number.

Quote:
The problem with a "reputationsystem" like the one you show, is that in an environment where you are new, you don't tend to be shouting the loudest, ergo you get less def.
Nonsense. Shouting loudest just gets you a reputation as a loud-mouth . Most people in a healthy community will be welcoming to newcomers - they are the people that you want to be defending you tomorrow.

Quote:
Having a dc department that handles defensecalls and prioritizes the defense in a efficient way has and will always be an important backbone of an alliance
That's a universal statement, falsified by the existence of at least one alliance which doesn't have a DC department. The idea that a DC system is always the best way to run an alliance is wrong (though it might still be the best way for some alliances).

You might say that some people are not capable of running defence effectively. This is probably true, but the only solution is to involve them more in running defence. If you treat the ordinary members like children, incapable of managing their fleets, then they are unlikely to improve. And I've seen plenty of disastrous defences run by supposedly good DCs; in fact, the authority of the position might make them overconfident in their own abilities (it is often said that 90% of drivers think that they are above average in their driving ability; the same must be true for DCs), and the position also shields them from scrutiny and criticism.

Quote:
and then there is always the classical comment: What might work for you, might not work for others. There are no real good answers to how to define how an alliance should act, as alliances are as different as night and day, and some more than others.
True. But I think most alliances would benefit from experimenting a little
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Unread 29 May 2007, 08:25   #149
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

Hello all
<3
Great day isn't it?
Great ****ing day to see ascendancy top 2 overall score, which supports the fact that
"they" won the round.
Don't be mad, be happy.
Its also great that 2 alliances seem to be fighting them for top 2. But without success!
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Unread 29 May 2007, 09:33   #150
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Re: Correct me if I am wrong.

You got a speshal statspage not showing fenix #1? :|
|edit|Nm, thought you meant planets,not alliances
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