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View Poll Results: Should structure killers be modified for R32?
Yes 56 38.10%
No 72 48.98%
I don't care 19 12.93%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 13:11   #51
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That said, a lot depends on there being a sufficient risk that using SKs against random planets will cost you in the long run, so perhaps it would be an interesting idea to raise the bash limit for fleets with SKs in them, or make it so that sending SKs reduces roid cap. Opinions?
I like it - at least it would make the use of SKs a conscious decision and would prevent them being included as the "default option".
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 13:12   #52
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Introduce salvage for lost constructions, more salvage the lower your output is (exluding pop to prevent abuse).

Lower the maximum amount destroyed in 1 tick to 5%.

And make them 50% more efficient (which still is pretty crappy) to make up for ^.


PS. Mz's idea is a good one too, reducing roidcap and/or raising bashlimit if you include SKs.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 13:39   #53
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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You should be happy about that
Talk to someone whos spoken to me legitimately for an hour or so. Theyll prolly hurt ur feelings with their assessment.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 15:52   #54
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Actually, it uses the factories of the shipclass. I was playing speedgame the other day, and while it told me it was going to use Heavy Factories, my Behemoths (De SK) were ordered with Medium Factories.
Like this
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 18:06   #55
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Making it a tactical option to include sk's but reduce roid cap would be a good idea as would getting salvage for lost con
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 18:25   #56
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

have voted no, because anything that isn't top 400 will lose every structure they have.

and if you really want to use SK you can always do so even if they are not part of an attack fleet, but they are probably easier to stop.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 18:48   #57
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

I still have no idea whether Yes means you're against the current "in-attackfleet" setup or if No does.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 19:02   #58
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
A Yes vote means they stay as they currently are in the beta stats (structure killers are in the same class as pods).
A No vote means JBG will put each race's sk in an eta class where they don't have a roiding fleet as they have been in previous rounds (bar for zik where JBG will make them bs class).
Its all so confusing isnt it Patrikc? If only it was explained in the first post.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 19:37   #59
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

If only the first 14 replies weren't made before Munkee's edit.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 20:07   #60
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Including a small amount of salvage for destroyed structures helps.

I say keep that allowing them in attacks fleets is ok, because if this was a brand new game no one would be any of the wiser.

1) As it stands you only kill 10% of a targets structures, so its not like you kill them all (even with multiple waves.

2) They are damn weak, if you get deffed your most likely to lose them (cost v effectiveness is basically nil) .

3) Suggestion: SK are like the torpedoes of old, they die upon hitting the target. So that could also be included into salvage.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 20:48   #61
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its all so confusing isnt it Patrikc? If only it was explained in the first post.
It is when the question itself isn't formulated properly at all. I'd like to see a fi/co Ter SK though, according Monroe's explanation.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 02:28   #62
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

SKs in pod class without rebalancing is what bothers me. There has been good suggestions to bring in more balance though
- reduced roid capping
- SKs dying on impact

I don't believe salvage is a solution, as the problem when you lose your constructions is the time you need to get them back.


atm I don't see why people wouldn't use them. Even if you're not a fan, as soon as you are hit by SKs, you'll build some and attack the same way.
How will react a semi active or an unlucky player losing his ships and the capacity to build them ? And the player with ships in prod for wave 3, losing a factory >>> ships can't be out of prod in time, defence is focked up...

Balancing the change would be the best option. Putting the SKs outside the class pods with this set of stats is like removing them from the game for Xan and Etd
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 04:28   #63
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
It is when the question itself isn't formulated properly at all. I'd like to see a fi/co Ter SK though, according Monroe's explanation.
My explanation is an edited version of what JBG gave me. If you have a better non biased explanation you wish to see I am willing to make changes. I appologize that the poll was initially unclear but I was responding to JBG's request for a poll and did not put much thought into the specific wording of the topic and question.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 07:11   #64
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
A fair point.

Lots of valid points
Cochese just convinced me into saying yes and keep them in main attack fleet classes.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 07:49   #65
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

what ever class youy make them, i'll still built SK's to piss you lot off
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 10:55   #66
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Wont having sk in a Xan attack fleet just make more people play Xan?
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 11:11   #67
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Wont having sk in a Xan attack fleet just make more people play Xan?
Yes, when choosing which race to play.. the primary concern is always "Where is my SK".
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 13:34   #68
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

No, but now with the added option of sks in attackfleets surely xan fi is a more viable and interesting option because of the only 1 tick of alliance defense. In all honesty I think that is one of the reasons why it will be stupid.

Come on, this is a change that is NOT needed, nobody NEEDS to have structurekillers in their attackfleets, and as I've said, it will alienate a lot of players whom prefer not to use structurekillers and dislike it being used. I honestly don't understand why people want this in if half the community dislike it greatly. For the community, and for the game, please drop the idea. In addition, the scanners for smaller alliances that only play to scan for their alliance will more or less be severly hit by this.

As proven before when sk's have been used in wars, when the wars end, and people go back to galaxy raids, they usually don't use the sk's if they're in a seperate shiptype, now with them in the main attackshiptype, people will have to chose not to attack with them in, thus a lot of independent and less active planets will get hit with sk's.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 13:55   #69
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Yes, when choosing which race to play.. the primary concern is always "Where is my SK".
I didn´t say it was a primary concern - just an influence.

Alliances might make sure they have Xans to attack with

AND some individuals might think fi SK might be fun - thus trying Xan

It may lead to too many Xans (which aint good)
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 14:52   #70
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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what ever class youy make them, i'll still built SK's to piss you lot off

this is the point of many people who build them, they dont need them placed neatly for attack fleets, they build them anyway !
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 20:29   #71
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
No, but now with the added option of sks in attackfleets surely xan fi is a more viable and interesting option because of the only 1 tick of alliance defense. In all honesty I think that is one of the reasons why it will be stupid.

I honestly don't understand why people want this in if half the community dislike it greatly.
Obviously I wont take this literally as 700 people havent voiced against the idea. But if 50% dont like the idea, 50% do (or dont care).

There are a few reasons why people say SK in main fleet are a bad idea.

Xan Fi/Co get unfair advantage when using SK due to ETA
1) Welcome to the fact FI/CO always have had an advantage over large ships.
2) You dont hear many people complain that 1 tick defence when roids/fleet are concerned.

Adding SK to main attack fleets will mean smaller people have a harder time.
Time to remove pods then, so no one losses roids.

"its not about cost of losing structures, but the time rebuilding them"
Not many people attack more than once a day, so losing roids is a big deal and getting the roids back could take a while.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 22:30   #72
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Have you listened to the arguments at all?
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 01:30   #73
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

voted i don't care,

never can be bothered building them, untill i get hit by it myself.
then its all about payback.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 01:53   #74
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
There are a few reasons why people say SK in main fleet are a bad idea.

Xan Fi/Co get unfair advantage when using SK due to ETA
1) Welcome to the fact FI/CO always have had an advantage over large ships.
2) You dont hear many people complain that 1 tick defence when roids/fleet are concerned.
I actually have to say I agree with this response. The fact remains, if we're deciding whether or not to put them in the roiding fleets, Xan has to have low ETA structure killers because of their roiding fleets. It's pretty simple really, if you are against them in fi/co fleets then you're obviously going to be against them in roiding fleets at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Adding SK to main attack fleets will mean smaller people have a harder time.
Time to remove pods then, so no one losses roids.

"its not about cost of losing structures, but the time rebuilding them"
Not many people attack more than once a day, so losing roids is a big deal and getting the roids back could take a while.
Admittedly, I don't really understand why people are comparing asteroids to structures. It is possible to get back a large number of asteroids in one day. It's not uncommon to get 100-200% increases in asteroids during a particularly good day roiding (and potentially initiating). Structures are much more difficult to regain. Yes, I understand that nearly everyone has brought up the time issue, but it's obviously a large impact. I don't see how you can tell me that someone with 120 constructions, maybe 10 days from round end, isn't impacted by 5 waves of SKs landing, leaving him suddenly with 70-75 constructions with no way to recover that. It costs you resources rebuilding, along with the lost resources (or production, security, etc) that you would have gained without it.

I'm not saying SKs in the roid fleets would completely ruin the game, like some people feel, but I do think that it's pretty obvious that it's not helping player growth. I'm not one for an easier game per say, I'd rather see it get harder and more tactically difficult. However, at this point in time, I'd rather see some pro-new player implements along with Pete's supposed marketing that helps grow the player base.

I'm just not sure why we're doing/arguing over things like this that, in the end, don't really improve the game, instead of new ideas that can actually evolve the game and game play, especially for new players.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 02:13   #75
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Holy **** it's a war game. Every bit of damage I do to anyone who isn't me or someone who can help me is beneficial for me.
true that.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 09:51   #76
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

I think SKs should be made extremely effective for round 32.

This would possibly give the game the real "shake up" that it is obviously desperate for. Finally people who haven't been moaning about SK's for the last 22 rounds will have something to moan about that isn't a.) ascendancy, or b.) the stats of all of the other ship types.

Perhaps more importantly people who /have/ been moaning about structure killers for the last 22 rounds will finally be able to be taken seriously instead of being condemned within the community as the whiny bitches they have been up until now (whereby now I mean a hypothetical round 32 where structure killers are actually quite ace!).
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 10:03   #77
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

if u put SKs in the attack fleets then add 100% salvage for the lost contructions as well so that planet loses expensive time rebuilding them(if he chooses so) tho at least dosent lose resources just cause someone wants to gangbang on someone.. 10 waves of xans with SKs would b ridiculous
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 12:15   #78
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

I do love how people have suddenly arrived at the decision just because there is a fi SK that everyone in the game is going to build them, that would imply that the same people would all jump of a cliff if the option was there to do so, not because they were all suicidal but because there was the option to.

OK my analogy might have been a little harsh but you get the picture, its a concious decision to build SKs no matter what class they are the fact they have lower armour etc than most other ships surly means that they will be actually useless when there is defence around and actually cost u value to land. ( i believe JBG pointed this out earlier). To take another analogy we did not see the USA choose not to use the latest military technology in iraq just because the iraqi people didn't have it advocating the removal of the fi SK is pretty much saying "Oh no i am gonna take a bit more losses if i fail to get defence, this game is unfair!!" however i suspect the moment an SK fleet lands on your planet you will not hesitate to return the favour.

PA is a war game for christs sake enough of the "arrrrgh im gonna lose some of my precious stuff lets change it so i don't" bullshit if you wanted to play roidswap and roidrace then i suggest that you do so, but the large majority of players want to play PA because it is a war game in war u expect to have loses etc so why not here?

The point is SKs always are and always will be a conscious decision by the player just because they are there does not automatically mean everyone will build them. Any other ship that was less effective would be dropped so since the SK has obvious weaknesses and it really does add nothing to a pure roiding fleet i really fail to see the problem?
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 12:55   #79
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

majority of ppl will now build SKs even if they didnt like them in earlier rounds.. why? cos now they got the ability to use em without losing in ETA while attacking(cos they are same class as the main att fleet) and basicly everyone needs em to at least try to retal the SK senders if needed.. or sth. like that..
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 12:56   #80
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Sebos u will see the problem when u get waved to death with SKs :P

Leave the Sks in the game, do not remove em or nething, they add quite alot to the gameplay.. but its still insane to have em in att fleets.. :S
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 13:04   #81
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
PA is a war game for christs sake enough of the "arrrrgh im gonna lose some of my precious stuff lets change it so i don't" bullshit if you wanted to play roidswap and roidrace then i suggest that you do so, but the large majority of players want to play PA because it is a war game in war u expect to have loses etc so why not here?
People don't care about losing constructions if they have the possibility to rebuild them fast enough. The problem of SKs used on every attack is that you lose your constructions much faster than you can rebuild them, and it's in no way of problem of resources. I'm against a salvage for lost constructions, the benefit for the attacker destroying your buildings should be to make you lose money, not to prevent you from rebuilding.

I had a fight in a speedgame with a planet, we kept hitting each other with SKs... It takes as little as 5 waves to ruin a planet. The buildings you rebuild between 2 attacks are wipped out with more on the next landing. Before long you're naked. And it was just one on one... We're not only talking of Scanners losing their amps or Dist whore losing their distorters, but everybody, especially early losing his ships factories and not having the time to rebuild them.

And think of races with slow construction like Caths... if you introduce SKs in pod fleets, then all the races have to start with the same construction bonus or at least not such a big difference betweem Ter and Cath.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 13:12   #82
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Well, the thought of someone having all their constructions destroyed by SKs and not being able to retaliate effectively for whatever reason does concern me. For that reason I would advocate making the havoc covert op much more effective than it has been up until now.

That will give the victims of SK attacks another option to avenge themselves, esp. those who find the whole notion of SKs distasteful.

I think this is the way forward tbh.

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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 13:58   #83
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

You realise that we have long been able to send SKs without losing 1 tick of travel? This "change" is barely worthy of the name.

In fact, it would appear that you idiots haven't even noticed that SKs utterly suck now. Here's what'll happen if you hit people who fail to run or who get the tiniest bit of defence
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 14:24   #84
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
I do love how people have suddenly arrived at the decision just because there is a fi SK that everyone in the game is going to build them, that would imply that the same people would all jump of a cliff if the option was there to do so, not because they were all suicidal but because there was the option to.

OK my analogy might have been a little harsh but you get the picture, its a concious decision to build SKs no matter what class they are the fact they have lower armour etc than most other ships surly means that they will be actually useless when there is defence around and actually cost u value to land. ( i believe JBG pointed this out earlier). To take another analogy we did not see the USA choose not to use the latest military technology in iraq just because the iraqi people didn't have it advocating the removal of the fi SK is pretty much saying "Oh no i am gonna take a bit more losses if i fail to get defence, this game is unfair!!" however i suspect the moment an SK fleet lands on your planet you will not hesitate to return the favour.

PA is a war game for christs sake enough of the "arrrrgh im gonna lose some of my precious stuff lets change it so i don't" bullshit if you wanted to play roidswap and roidrace then i suggest that you do so, but the large majority of players want to play PA because it is a war game in war u expect to have loses etc so why not here?

The point is SKs always are and always will be a conscious decision by the player just because they are there does not automatically mean everyone will build them. Any other ship that was less effective would be dropped so since the SK has obvious weaknesses and it really does add nothing to a pure roiding fleet i really fail to see the problem?
Yes PA is a war game that 200 (sometimes including me) or so players take very seriously and the majority play for fun.

We need reasons to keep players not reasons for players to leave.

FACT = fi SK will lead to more SK in round 32 and this will lead to more SK in attack fleets.
With possibly more Xans next round this will mean MORE SK than ever before which will lead to many of the players that play for fun being hit.
Which aint FUN.

More players will leave if this decision is passed
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 14:26   #85
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by Zoro View Post
More players will leave if this decision is passed
I personally have no intention of playing next round, but I promise you this:

If they create high armor SKs with the same classes as pods, and massively increase the effectiveness of the havoc covert op, then WILD HORSES (tm) will not stop me from signing up a planet!

That would be more fun than a barrel of monkeys with dynamite strapped to their backs!
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 14:28   #86
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

If many people go xan than most people, as you state, will use SK, thereby everyone attacks everyone and everyone wins/losses.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 15:56   #87
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
If many people go xan than most people, as you state, will use SK, thereby everyone attacks everyone and everyone wins/losses.
And we'll all end up with 5 fiancence centres, 1 factory of each type and a res lab. Billions of stocked resources because we can't get production out fast enough.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Not directed at MrLobster

Seriously now Comparing structures to Asteroids?

You must really be out of valid points you can make. The moment I can get 25-30 constructions back in a matter of days, I might agree on the analogy you guys put forward.
It's annoying to loose roids, i'll give you that. But if I loose half my roids i can get those back in a matter of days (5-600 roids is more then possible to do in 1 week). if i loose 40 constructions it would take me 6 * 40 /24 = 10 days to get those back. (100 structures, 5 landing ticks = 40 structures gone at 10%) (Technically this means that the round will almost have ended by the time I manage to get my structures back.(6*100 + 6 * 4 = 840 ticks)

Killing off structures can actually be quite fun, and I actually think they could bring in some new dynamics into the game, the current idea just hasn't had enough consideration and is imo only good for players in top alliances (like 1 or 2 maybe) that can manage to cover every wave on them.

First a question:
Does killing structure gain a planet anything? EG. do i get xp if i ruin a planets structures.

Will I be able to get any form of retall when someone lands on me and kills my structures? Will killing their structures reward me?

If you really want SK's to become a part of this game. Fiddle around with some ideas and make it a worthwile tactic. Just like xp whoring, covopping, value playing, ...

Don't set up a round where everyone will include SK's in their fleet, it'll be total chaos:
People that can not get defense will be destroyed into oblivion. (Consider this: those people are the ones not in an alliance, are not one of those 50 lucky people that end up in a top gal or new players that decided to give planetarion a chance)
Scanners will be targetted 24/7. I'm sure the bigger alliances can have the spare fleets to cover 3-4 scanners, I know from experience that fleets for 3-4 planets can dry out a big BG easily)

Ideas to implement SK as an extra dynamic.
1)
Having sk's that can not be a part of a normal soloing attack fleet is the most crappy feature anyone ever came up with. As suggested: provide SK 's for every roiding fleet in every race.

2) Give planets a chance to rebuild lost constructions. (eg: structure xxx has received damage, do you want to repair this?)

3) Reward SK's (small planets getting xp when killing big planets structures)

4) Make SK's utterly expensive + destroyed after a successfull kill.

5) When a factory gets destroyed, is it normal that the ships are suddenly transferred into an other factory? I can see how it could be fun to kill ships in production of a topplanet, even tough as it came at a high cost for your team also (see point 4)

6) As suggested: Higher the bash limit. Maybe even make it as high as 80% of your own value. What is the point of killing structures of a planet 1/5 your value? he's clearly no threat to you.

7) ...
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 15:57   #88
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

how does them being in an attack fleet mean everyone will have them? Did terran/zik/cath/anyone with a bs-cr fleet at some stage/your mum have sks in all their fleets all the time?
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 15:59   #89
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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how does them being in an attack fleet mean everyone will have them? Did terran/zik/cath/anyone with a bs-cr fleet at some stage/your mum have sks in all their fleets all the time?

I'd have taken this post serious, but I fail to see how my mom has anything to do with this.

Clearly tough, we are changing the entire SK thing here, can't compare a game where SK 's were just another fleettype to a game where SK's might actually become a viable tactic?
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:17   #90
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

View Poll Results: Should structure killers be modified for R32?
Yes 49 38.58%
No 63 49.61%
I don't care 15 11.81%

And in the spirit of being an arbitrary dick I'm declaring that sks will stay as they currently are in the stats. Anyone wishing to express their anger at me I would advise to try and structure kill me ingame. I will not be fake-nicking and my r/p will be painfully unsubtle. Good day gentlemen.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:29   #91
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

You utter idiots!
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:29   #92
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

More SKs mean people will need to pay attention to how attractive their planet looks to attackers, which means we're bringing a long-since dead aspect of PA's strategy back to the game.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:30   #93
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Seriously - how long did you have to wait until the "Nos" dropped below 50%? (I notice that they're now back up to 50%).

2 days ago, Cochese posted this...
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Stats look good, sk's will get changed whenever JBG sobers up!
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:36   #94
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Seriously - how long did you have to wait until the "Nos" dropped below 50%? (I notice that they're now back up to 50%).
Well, I had to sign up a few extra forum accounts first....
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:41   #95
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

LOL

BTW - sorry about the insult. I (temporarily) forgot that this was the strategy forum.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:45   #96
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Good. A decent reason not to play this round. Good luck all.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:47   #97
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Dear Diary,

Victory commenced early this round....
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:48   #98
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Unfortunately, there's too much truth in that for comfort.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:52   #99
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Dear Diary,

Victory commenced early this round....
I sure hope that Cochese follows Appocomasters recommandation because this is just another tragic decision that is totally uneeded.
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 17:53   #100
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Re: Should SKs be changed for R32?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post

And in the spirit of being an arbitrary dick I'm declaring that sks will stay as they currently are in the stats.
Somehow I thought Cochese had the final decision.
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