_Finally_ the round gets interesting

[Eol]

Originally posted by Hardin
My God...I had to go the whole way back to Page 1 to find out what you were responding too EoL

Slightly out of date stupidity is as provoking as contemporary stupidity. Sorry.

[Psi_K]

Originally posted by Kileman

In your opinion Scouse, in this round, has Titans had greater odds stacked against them than Fury?

In your opinion Kileman, in this round, has Fury obviously make themselves out to be the top contender for the winning alliance?

[K-W]

Originally posted by Scouse


Slighty ironic coming from a Fury exec, when Fury have done everything possible to avoid a fair war in previous rounds. You have only ever fought wars you knew you'd win.

Thats just blatently untrue. We entered rd 8 with no allies, even though we knew that several groups were already forming, we could have gotten allies to try and only fight wars wed know wed win, but we didn't.

In rd 7, we tried desperately to make an even war. We even turned down allies that others in the block wanted. We could have had a stronger block, and only faught a war we knew we could win, we didn't.

rd 6, we went in to a war that was vastly not in our favor

rd 5, we tried to form generally even blocks, but vastly overestimated our enemy, and didn't realzie alliances that were srong the round before would crumble.

rd 4, do I need to even say

rd 3, maybe this is the only round youd have that point

[K-W]

Originally posted by Psi_K

In your opinion Kileman, in this round, has Fury obviously make themselves out to be the top contender for the winning alliance?

hed have to be pretty out of touch to think that

[Psi_K]

Originally posted by K-W


hed have to be pretty out of touch to think that

He must be pretty out of touch thinking Titans had all numbers stacked in our favour this round too ... or do you also share a similiar thought?

lol, I must ask how anyone thinks ViruS/LDK/Titans can win against Fury/FAnG/NoS/WP/Ely/Madcows/hirr and the rest.

Face it, Titans pissed off too many people and regardless of what's fair and what's not, they're gonna finally get bashed like they deserve.

Originally posted by Darklight
lol, I must ask how anyone thinks ViruS/LDK/Titans can win against Fury/FAnG/NoS/WP/Ely/Madcows/hirr and the rest.

Face it, Titans pissed off too many people and regardless of what's fair and what's not, they're gonna finally get bashed like they deserve.

I agree totally, evhul titans, EVHUL!

Originally posted by Psi_K

He must be pretty out of touch thinking Titans had all numbers stacked in our favour this round too ... or do you also share a similiar thought?

Kile didnt say that, he said (implied) that Fury had the odds more stacked against them than Titans, which is true.
Fury obviously brought it on themselves with their actions end of r7, but the point still stands. Fury went into r8 as the scum of the universe, the evil FuRaH powerblockers ('we must all best fury then the rest of the universe can have fun!!1' etc). Titans in most people's eyes were the hard done by ones of last round, which always helps..

And Scouse, as you say Fury have been getting away with fighting easily winnable wars for ages, what on earth makes you think they wouldnt notice you guys doing the same, and wouldnt try to stop you?

[Da_F]

Originally posted by Darklight
lol, I must ask how anyone thinks ViruS/LDK/Titans can win against Fury/FAnG/NoS/WP/Ely/Madcows/hirr and the rest.

Face it, Titans pissed off too many people and regardless of what's fair and what's not, they're gonna finally get bashed like they deserve.

this is so true,

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Xavier March


Kile didnt say that, he said (implied) that Fury had the odds more stacked against them than Titans, which is true.
Fury obviously brought it on themselves with their actions end of r7, but the point still stands. Fury went into r8 as the scum of the universe, the evil FuRaH powerblockers ('we must all best fury then the rest of the universe can have fun!!1' etc). Titans in most people's eyes were the hard done by ones of last round, which always helps..

And Scouse, as you say Fury have been getting away with fighting easily winnable wars for ages, what on earth makes you think they wouldnt notice you guys doing the same, and wouldnt try to stop you?

As soon as Titans held agreements with LDK, and rough relationships with other anti-Fury alliances (such as ViruS) they held a serious ace card for this round.

The politics HAS been in favour of Titans rather than Fury. I am biased to some degree - but in all rounds, where you have the propaganda in support of you its a serious advantage. Round 5 showed this in the persecution of NoCeX, and in Round 6 to a variety of degree.

Thus this, and the fact Titans is a newer alliance than Fury (thus doesnt have the same turnover rate between rounds) gave Titans a good advantage.

People who believe Titans are crushed due to recent political movements are fooling themselves - do not be 'taken in' by that nonsense. The war will result in whichever side has the will and dedication to win.

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Eol


You have absolutely no clue.

Well then Eol, if you think Titans DOES deserve respect from Ely, give me one good reason. As far as I can tell, you people think Ely should just step aside and let Titans win the round, because if they don't let you do it, than OBVIOUSLY they are just going to serve as flak for the EVIL Fury, who will then win the round....and obviously Ely should prefer a Titans victory to an Ely or a Fury one. I repeat....give AD one good reason why they should respect Titans. Feelings of affection and sympathy from your members who did nothing to help Ely in r5 don't constitute such a reason.

[Axis_WLF]

Respect for any alliance has really been a forgone conclussion since r3, I however respect all that put up a fight and do not whine about it. I have not seen alot of Fury whining tbh I see them putting up a fight tho and coming on here to stir things up but I like that.

Alliance respect does not hardly exist personal respect is all that remains.

[rnd|One]

LDK/Titans(DTA)/Section/ViRuS have the required top10 planets and roids to back up a secure victory this round.

[BetrayerOfHope]

Originally posted by K-W
In rd 7, we tried desperately to make an even war. We even turned down allies that others in the block wanted. We could have had a stronger block, and only faught a war we knew we could win, we didn't.


rd 5, we tried to form generally even blocks, but vastly overestimated our enemy, and didn't realzie alliances that were srong the round before would crumble.

your post is entertaining

r7 u formed a block which was impossible for newx to fight with the chance of victory (at last no real one) for that some alliancess in the newx block were to crapy and n00b containg (no i wont say NoS here or something)

r5 even blocks lol?
the universe vs 3 alliancess that u call even blocks?

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Darklight
lol, I must ask how anyone thinks ViruS/LDK/Titans can win against Fury/FAnG/NoS/WP/Ely/Madcows/hirr and the rest.

Face it, Titans pissed off too many people and regardless of what's fair and what's not, they're gonna finally get bashed like they deserve.

Wrong. You have no clue of who holds what positions in the universe atm if you think that. You're just another of them "You're gonna get owned" trolls whose knows next to nothing about the game atm.

We've been fighting with Fury/FAnG/WP/Ely/NoS for 5 days already and we are still + 10k(roughly) roids a day, for Titans/LDK/Virus.

On my last count there was 20 hostiles in the top 100 on roids. As much as I want this round to end, I'd like it to continue so we could prove, to people like you, how wrong you are, because we do have the 'dedication' and 'skill' left to beat all of them alliances.

You were saying the same thing not long after the round began, "Titans and LDK bit off more than they could chew and now FAnG/Fury/ToT/Adelante are gonna own them". And you were wrong about that.

Originally posted by Obfuscator
Well then Eol, if you think Titans DOES deserve respect from Ely, give me one good reason. As far as I can tell, you people think Ely should just step aside and let Titans win the round, because if they don't let you do it, than OBVIOUSLY they are just going to serve as flak for the EVIL Fury, who will then win the round....and obviously Ely should prefer a Titans victory to an Ely or a Fury one. I repeat....give AD one good reason why they should respect Titans. Feelings of affection and sympathy from your members who did nothing to help Ely in r5 don't constitute such a reason.

We don't expect anything from Elysium, you're entitled to think what the hell you like for all I care. This round you were never going to be contenders, you hold very little top planets and from what I've seen your organisation in planning raids is lacking.

If we had left Legion mid round 5, we'd have been called unloyal and been given hell for that, and now you're dissing us because we didn't leave. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You've had it tremendously easy this round compared to Titans/LDK/FAnG/Fury etc who have been at war basically all round.

[Kileman]

Originally posted by Scouse

Because we do have the 'dedication' and 'skill' left to beat all of them alliances.

In your current form and position only.

Start the round with those 'blocks' and we may have seen some fair competition.

And if there is a new round (with private gals ?) ... Titans wont have a chance in hell of winning
________
Chevrolet Task Force

[Ferox]

Calm down before I go

[Psi_K]

Originally posted by Kileman
In your current form and position only.

Start the round with those 'blocks' and we may have seen some fair competition.

And if there is a new round (with private gals ?) ... Titans wont have a chance in hell of winning

hrm, by your theories then, a fair war would consist of 4:1 odds vs Titans/LDK ... damn, that makes me proud

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Kileman
In your current form and position only.

Start the round with those 'blocks' and we may have seen some fair competition.

And if there is a new round (with private gals ?) ... Titans wont have a chance in hell of winning

with such odds your implying, even a army of n00bs would win..
tnx for coming out of the closet mr. n00bie

[Bongdage]

same ****, different thread...

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Scouse
We don't expect anything from Elysium, you're entitled to think what the hell you like for all I care. This round you were never going to be contenders, you hold very little top planets and from what I've seen your organisation in planning raids is lacking.

Speak for yourself Scouse, not for Eol, with whom you clearly have something of a disagreement. Eol claimed I had no clue what I was talking about when I said that Titans deserves zero respect from Ely, which essentially means that he thinks they DO deserve some respect. I understand your noble mission to make Titans look like they have some semi-intelligent posters, but the bottom line is that no one could possibly accomplish this goal.

As for me never being a contender this round, I'm not sure to what alliance you are referring. I don't even play this game any more, so your attempt to discredit me by associating me with a failing alliance is rather pointless.

Originally posted by Scouse
If we had left Legion mid round 5, we'd have been called unloyal and been given hell for that, and now you're dissing us because we didn't leave. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You've had it tremendously easy this round compared to Titans/LDK/FAnG/Fury etc who have been at war basically all round.

If you had ever appealed to anyone in mid round 5, explaining that the betrayal of Ely was your reason for splitting from Legion, you would have found most of the Universe rising up to welcome you to the fold of people who hated Furgion. Instead you chose to sit safely in large Legion galaxies and keep your high scores and roids. As for the hell you would have caught, are you trying to tell me that you weren't branded as traitors and given hell for splitting ANYWAY? I would wager that Titans would have been an infinitely more popular alliance in its PA career if it had EVER taken a stand on ANYTHING.

We're told that Titans was deeply opposed to the mistreatment of Ely in r5. But did Titans, or the people who would make up Titans in the future, since Titans did not yet exist, do ANYTHING to stop it? No.

In fact, even after Titans had become its own alliance, you STILL fought with Legion, AGAINST those poor, mistreated Ely players in r6, whom you had ever so much sympathy for. Also, you managed to alienate 1/2 of FoS with your pre-round shenanigans.

You can justify it to yourself however you like Scouse, but please don't expect anyone else to buy into your drivelous excuses for your alliance's history.

As for my having it tremendously easy this round, see my earlier comments about my status as a non-player.

[BLACK_OPPS]

Originally posted by KoRnNut

And RaH are tiny, says some frustrated RaH members.....

ho hum

can say the same about Nos tho

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
I understand your noble mission to make Titans look like they have some semi-intelligent posters, but the bottom line is that no one could possibly accomplish this goal.

Straight in with an insult. Go you.

As for me never being a contender this round, I'm not sure to what alliance you are referring. I don't even play this game any more, so your attempt to discredit me by associating me with a failing alliance is rather pointless.

By 'you' I was referring to Elysium, not you personally.

If you had ever appealed to anyone in mid round 5, explaining that the betrayal of Ely was your reason for splitting from Legion

Show me where we said that? You probably have no idea why we left Legion, but the mistreatment of Elysium wasn't the main one. It was just one of many reasons as to why we decided to leave eventually.

We're told that Titans was deeply opposed to the mistreatment of Ely in r5. But did Titans, or the people who would make up Titans in the future, since Titans did not yet exist, do ANYTHING to stop it? No.

Yes we did. We told HC that we were not happy with their choice of Fury (nap'd) over Elysium (allies). There wasn't anything else we could do but actively fight for Elysium (be kicked from Legion for betraying them) or leave Legion, and why we didn't do that has been over a thousand times.

In fact, even after Titans had become its own alliance, you STILL fought with Legion, AGAINST those poor, mistreated Ely players in r6, whom you had ever so much sympathy for. Also, you managed to alienate 1/2 of FoS with your pre-round shenanigans.

Also been over before and if you don't know the story yet you're either ignorant or 'slow'.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
Well then Eol, if you think Titans DOES deserve respect from Ely, give me one good reason. As far as I can tell, you people think Ely should just step aside and let Titans win the round, because if they don't let you do it, than OBVIOUSLY they are just going to serve as flak for the EVIL Fury, who will then win the round....and obviously Ely should prefer a Titans victory to an Ely or a Fury one. I repeat....give AD one good reason why they should respect Titans. Feelings of affection and sympathy from your members who did nothing to help Ely in r5 don't constitute such a reason.

we weren't the ones actually roiding you?

off the top of my head........

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
we weren't the ones actually roiding you?

off the top of my head........

I have never been roided by Titans. I have never been in Ely. I frankly have no clue why you think either of these things.

[Edit]MAdnRisKy: In addition to the above, I would argue that your restraint in roiding Ely is hardly an admirable trait, especially considering that in future rounds, this restraint was not shown. Not roiding Ely in r5 alongside Fury merely shows that like the rest of Legion, those that would become Titans wanted to "stay friends" by not breaking their word to Ely entirely. The backstab was still rather thorough though, as any Ely member would be glad to relate, I'm sure. Not roiding them was the LEAST you could do while still clinging to even a shred of your dignity as an alliance.[/Edit]

[Editx2]Scouse: You have done an admirable job obfuscating what we are discussing, but in the end, you are still simply side-stepping my question. Why should Ely respect Titans in any way? Since you don't seem to think that they should, I propose you don't waste both of our time answering, and leave it for Eol to answer, since it was directed at him in the first place. [/Editx2]

[Psi_K]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
[Editx2]Scouse: Why should Ely respect Titans in any way? Since you don't seem to think that they should[/Editx2]

Originally posted by Scouse
We don't expect anything from Elysium, you're entitled to think what the hell you like for all I care.

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Psi_K

I'm so proud of your ability to edit my words and take them out of context. You truly have proven yourself a tribute to the Titans propaganda effort. I yield to your blatant superiority.

[Norseman]

Never hurts to start a new alliance with some moral backbone, nicely used indeed

the feelings back in r5, most of us didnt really care. or that was my feeling atleast, as far as i can recall

ofc, it made the fight in the name of propaganda even easier, but apart from that...regard it as a nice gesture that served for nothing, nothing at all

[Buly The Great]

rofl...this thread is very very funneh. Is it just me or did these last 2 replies put a grin on your face?

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
I'm so proud of your ability to edit my words and take them out of context. You truly have proven yourself a tribute to the Titans propaganda effort. I yield to your blatant superiority.

and I congratulate you to have kept this now uninteresting thread going for alot longer than necesary...

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by G.K Zhukov
and I congratulate you to have kept this now uninteresting thread going for alot longer than necesary...

I would argue that it was the refusal of certain individuals to admit to my being correct that kept it alive this long, but you're entitled to your views.

[Eol]

Obfuscator, you misunderstand me - I am not claiming that Ely should respect us as an alliance, I'm just contesting the general logic of your argument, which if I have not totally misunderstood you goes as such:

1. Titans were part of Legion and 'did nothing' when Furgion dumped its allies. This is rubbish to start with - you didn't know our situation intimately, our thoughts or our aspirations. The time had not come, and could not have come - the point was not yet reached where our tolerance levels had been stretched to the point where Titans became inevitable, and remember - the break with Ely was a symptom of why Titans was started... NOT the cause.

2. Though we claimed to sympathise with Ely (which we did) we did not stand by them in the next round. The reasons for *this* is very VERY thoroughly documented in this thread. It should make it apparent for you that we again were (or felt) powerless to change politics enough to make us able to do what we wanted to do.

3. We did nothing to change our stance in round 7. Dunno, not my table - my impression was that the Titans HC who decided this were quite happy to continue working with Fury at the point when these decisions were made - times change. That changed though (quite predictably, I might add).

So why should Ely prefer Titans to win over Fury? Note, why would they prefer, no question about respect - that was not your original query, but rather what you twisted it into when you saw that I had largely ignored a sentence in one of my replies to you. This is what I was contesting:

If the betrayal of Ely was half as important to Titans as they say it was, they would have done something about it at the time. Instead they went along with Legion and Fury like the good little lap-dogs that they are.

Anyhow, why should Ely prefer Titans to win over Fury? They don't have to. They obviously don't. Maybe even they shouldn't - mind you, Fury was probably more instrumental in their r5 drop than anyone in Titans. And their alliance was created to fight Fury. These are however all past reasons, and times do change.

Most importantly (really, most importantly) though my responses in this thread have been tainted by and trying to express my endless amusement at the ease with which Fury whispers have taken a hold of some HCs that were previously rather opposed to them. Clearly they do not understand that what we want to do is pummel Fury. And then some more. And then some more. We want to stagnate an alliance - not the universe, unless that universe happens to move in the way. That is their choice though.

So... Respect? That is besides the issue. I'm really not talking about who Ely should respect, I'm talking about your cluelessness regarding our attitudes towards certain events in our pasts. We did not like Ely being dropped, but did not even exist then. We did not like being forced back to Furgion in r6, but we felt we had no choice. And please do not come to us and tell us what we felt - I believe we know best ourselves. You criticize our inaction regarding those events - but as I said. The first time we didn't exist, the second we felt compelled to do what we did due to reasons meticulously explained in a thread I've linked in this post, and the third we did (I believe) because basically times had changed. Are these reasons why Ely should respect us? No.

It's not about respect or anything - it's about a foolish perception sold to them by Fury Inc. that they'll be next, when in reality there is no 'next' - there's just whoever gets in between, and Fury.

Scouse and I disagree on some things, but on the issue of whether Titans deserves any respect from Ely, we certainly don't.

Oh, and BTW:

[01:23] 11/24/2001 <Gabrielle> heya
[01:23] 11/24/2001 <Gabrielle> you wanted to join Ely? heh
[01:23] 11/24/2001 <Eol> Hello
[01:23] 11/24/2001 <Eol> Yes

[Eol]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
I would argue that it was the refusal of certain individuals to admit to my being correct that kept it alive this long, but you're entitled to your views.

Just restoring this for posterity. I don't believe you are correct - I believe you misunderstand my argument, or that I must be.

[MAdnRisKy]

Go Eol, go Eol, it's your birthday...

(take your clothes off)

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Allfather
Moral backbone?
ahem, i doubt you will find any alliance with a socalled "moral" backbone in pa,heh.

point being; Titans gained a portion of cheap moral backbone to start with, because of their oh so noble words

empty meaning, but nice to have when recruiting for a new alliance

[Eol]

Originally posted by Norseman
point being; Titans gained a portion of cheap moral backbone to start with, because of their oh so noble words

empty meaning, but nice to have when recruiting for a new alliance

If you think that our sympathy towards Ely (though not put in practical terms) is what our moral backbone is, then you are fairly ignorant of what Titans aimed to be, and what it has become. Principally we wanted a Legion without the twats running it at the time, with some principles in terms of allies, some principles in terms of numbers, some principles in terms of the acquisition of those numbers, etc. That is the backbone of Titans.

Our disgust with Legion's attitude towards Ely was a symptom of our formation, not the cause. We wanted a good alliance, not a good statement.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Eol
Loads

I have to point out you are automatically assuming Fury was behind Elysiums political move and that Fury was 'feeding lies' (that is your implication. Im just putting it directly into english rather than your skirting around the bush dear Eol)

Elysium (since r4) never really truely despised Fury. Elysium r5 from what I can tell respected Fury and had 'expected' a Fury vs them at some point no matter what. One of the main reasons Elysium and Fury were on opposite sides from then on once more is more due to game balance than any bitterness between the alliances or such.

You can 'claim' all you want about Titans intentions - you wished to win the round, that much is obvious so attempting to cover this up with a 'destroy Fury' objective is useless.

Regardless, seems like this round was futile anyway. Shockingly I did predict this round would be a sham overall . It is a pity for all sides involved. We'll never know what would have happened now (even if PA restarts again within the next week or so). An endless war...

[Psi_K]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Regardless, seems like this round was futile anyway. Shockingly I did predict this round would be a sham overall . It is a pity for all sides involved. We'll never know what would have happened now (even if PA restarts again within the next week or so). An endless war...

Fury's responce to losing the round?
Yes, I am a ****, no need to point that out.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Zh|l
I have to point out you are automatically assuming Fury was behind Elysiums political move and that Fury was 'feeding lies' (that is your implication. Im just putting it directly into english rather than your skirting around the bush dear Eol)

Elysium (since r4) never really truely despised Fury. Elysium r5 from what I can tell respected Fury and had 'expected' a Fury vs them at some point no matter what. One of the main reasons Elysium and Fury were on opposite sides from then on once more is more due to game balance than any bitterness between the alliances or such.

You can 'claim' all you want about Titans intentions - you wished to win the round, that much is obvious so attempting to cover this up with a 'destroy Fury' objective is useless.

Regardless, seems like this round was futile anyway. Shockingly I did predict this round would be a sham overall . It is a pity for all sides involved. We'll never know what would have happened now (even if PA restarts again within the next week or so). An endless war...

ROFL

[Eol]

Originally posted by Zh|l

Loads

Regardless, seems like this round was futile anyway. Shockingly I did predict this round would be a sham overall . It is a pity for all sides involved. We'll never know what would have happened now (even if PA restarts again within the next week or so). An endless war...

Originally posted by Eol

You realize that no matter what happens they'll claim to have done so anyway?

Round 8 went down before its announced end, and is not coming back up. In my books, therefore, this round is over, and the song you hear now is the fat lady singing.

Care to count up, Zh|l, or are you and the rest of Fury going to cling to your last straw and claim that the entire round is invalid due to the premature end of it?

[Eol]

I liek Scouse's new sig

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Eol
lots

Two ships passing in the night Eol. Perhaps we have both misunderstood each other a fair bit. My initial responses on the Titans/Ely relationship on this thread were addressed to people like LaNiCoR and MAdnRisKy, who claimed that the betrayal of Ely was one of many reasons for the Titans/Legion split, in the case of the former, and that it was the "principle reason" for the Titans/Legion split, in the case of the latter.

My statements reflect my belief that this is not the case, a perception which you are supporting wholeheartedly when you say

Originally posted by Eol
1. Titans were part of Legion and 'did nothing' when Furgion dumped its allies. This is rubbish to start with - you didn't know our situation intimately, our thoughts or our aspirations. The time had not come, and could not have come - the point was not yet reached where our tolerance levels had been stretched to the point where Titans became inevitable, and remember - the break with Ely was a symptom of why Titans was started... NOT the cause.

Furthermore, your words here reinforce my statements that the feelings of the future Titans were not all that strong on the matter. They contributed to the disillusioning of the Legion mystique, or whatever you want to call it, in the minds of those who would become Titans in r6, but nothing more. So in other words, when I hear Titans and others claiming that the betrayal of Ely was their major motivation, I know that this is not the case. I know that if members of any alliance I have been an HC of disagree THAT strongly with anything the HC have agreed on, they will make it extremely well known, attempt to change it, and usually quit over it if need be. So your telling me that the betrayal of Ely did not put Titans at the breaking point completely confirms what I am trying to say. The Ely incident was simply not as important to the development of Titans as we are led to believe by the statements of those individuals I already mentioned.

In short, my point all along has been that Titans DOESN'T deserve any respect from Ely, and that had Ely had no reason to prefer a Titans victory in r8 to one by Fury, or one by themselves (obviously). You confirm these points well here:

Originally posted by Eol
Scouse and I disagree on some things, but on the issue of whether Titans deserves any respect from Ely, we certainly don't.

and here:

Originally posted by Eol
Anyhow, why should Ely prefer Titans to win over Fury? They don't have to. They obviously don't. Maybe even they shouldn't - mind you, Fury was probably more instrumental in their r5 drop than anyone in Titans. And their alliance was created to fight Fury. These are however all past reasons, and times do change.

You obviously think that Ely should have prefered a Titans win to a Fury one, but as long as you are willing to concede that the only reason to do so is their drop in r5, I will agree to disagree with you on that point. We will simply never settle whether or not that should be a factor in Titans/Fury/Ely relations, because it is purely a matter of opinion.