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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 03:36   #1
GeenPorem
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support planet issue??

it wuld be nice to settle the support planet issue once and for all. when is a support planet a support planet? theres no rules on it. even multihunters cant give a straight answer on this, while they are judging on these issues. so that means we are left in the dark. in fact, they can close whole alliances if they like. while the rules are vague.

so how to solve it? forbid all def to out-of ally/gal/cluster all together? wuld be a shame not to be able to def friends, no? whats ur thoughts on this? shuld there be strict rules on this issue? or shuld we be left at the mercy of #multihunters?

1 idea is that ppl can def up to number of times out-of ally/gal/cluster, but not beyond that number, or theyll get closed

2nd idea is that ppl can state/report up to a certain number of friends that they can def out-of ally/gal/cluster at netime and ne number of times, without probs.

3rd idea is that ppl can create defgroups of out-of ally/gal/cluster ppl and that deffing within this group is allowed, but all other def out-of ally/gal/cluster/defgroup is not allowed

in the case of #2 and #3 an eta bonus might be considered.

just a thought. the idea is to kill the support planet issue, while keeping friend-def alive. as deffing friends is imho is one of the things that helps this game in being a community game.
ne other thoughts?
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 05:39   #2
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Re: support planet issue??

I have yet to hear any valid argument whatsoever against dropping the support rule completely, and until I do, I'll keep supporting that side.

By limiting the number of times someone can defend OOGOOA, or by limiting it to a specific group of players, you're basically saying "Yeah, people should obviously be able to defend friends out of tag, but for some vague undistinguished reason we need to limit it so they can't do it anytime and anywhere". Why?
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 09:48   #3
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Re: support planet issue??

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Originally Posted by Talin
I have yet to hear any valid argument whatsoever against dropping the support rule completely, and until I do, I'll keep supporting that side.
The short summary of the support planet rule could be interpreted as follows. Until the very beginning of Planetarion, and of a plethora of other online games, people have cooperated. In some games, like Planetarion, the history comes down to support through holding multiple planets (naughty), and the "regular" support in the form of scanplanets, poor Lithuanians playing as defence whores, and so on. The latter, which doesn't necessarily involve account sharing or holding multiple planets, was very long interpreted as normal and the usual way to act. All of the sudden, it went upside down, and what was previously considered normal and within the rules became naughty and wrong. Why did this ever happen?

First, there's some ideal about "equal competition". This is where people step in to defend that an alliance should be limited to an amount of people, to provide equal competition. Some find this idea nice, some find it blatantly ridiculous. Then there's the group of players that will go around it, inevitably. It's forever been vaguely determined, whether you're actually limited to a given amount of players, or whether that's just what your tag can hold. Either way, it wasn't perceived until a very influential faction was being nailed by another faction in the equal competition pitch, used it's influence to gain the favour of a multihunter that can be perceived as friendly-minded towards them (see him joining the given faction within days after ending his multihunting career, and returning to the multihunting instantly as the faction dissolves). Technically, a mid round change was issued to alter the way of play that had been normal since forever. This was done because an accusedly biased multihunter felt like it.

After that, it's gone downhills. Again, certain factions (hint hint) have been allowed to bypass the rules written mainly to bash certain factions (hint hint) and the support planet rule has thereafter remained the prior number one rule which has been used because of it's vaguety and interpretatibility to mash people you just don't like. Given the feeble evidence under which people have gotten closed, given the solid evidence under which people haven't been closed, there are very valid grounds for such claims.

The rule is bland. The rule is difficult to enforce, and apparently even tougher to enforce (as perceived) unbiased. It has resulted in a lot of hassle and accusedly biased descisions by several (faction affiliated?) multihunters through rounds. There's really little reason not to just completely abolish it - making it more complicated will probably just resolve in what it's asking for, more complications.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 11:15   #4
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Re: support planet issue??

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
There's really little reason not to just completely abolish it - making it more complicated will probably just resolve in what it's asking for, more complications.
Essentially, yes.

The question now is, how are these decisions brought about? You just said how the support rule came to be, and the motivation behind it is pretty clear as well.

But what conditions need to be met, and what needs to be done for the rule to be abolished, at least for one test drive round?

We've had quite complex argumentation over a couple of months on over a hundred pages of text, going into psychology and whatnot, and yet rather blunt arguments ("equality", "fairness", "we do not want 300-people alliances", "we do not want alliances losing members to other alliances", etcetra) are apparently enough for the PA Team to insist on keeping the rule (and alliance limits).

Direct question is, who is being listened to, and is anyone being listened to at all? And if so, what is the PA Team's actual argumentation for listening to one "side", and sticking to the rule?

Normally, I'm not in favor of democratic player-ran decisions in running the game. But it's a whole different perspective when we consider the manner that support planet rule came to exist in the first place, and the (political?) motivation behind it.

On one side, we have a person who wrote and rooted for the rule and got it implemented midround while it was in the direct interest of a certain faction, without any prior debate whatsoever. On the other side, we now have dozens of people throughout the community with detailed argumentation which has addressed every issue over and over again, and yet they are being constantly ignored.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 01:04   #5
GeenPorem
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Re: support planet issue??

tnx for ur replies.

so, i plead for clear rules on support planets.

* support scanners are impossible to detect imho. letting scanners scan from ally fund is imo the best way to tackle this prob. also, i think transcendancy, shuld not be punnished for thinking of new ways to get intel, and a new way of playing the game.

* support cov-op. let them covop from ally fund. encourage them to get intag.

* support-defence. if u dont want this, either hardcode it into the game, so no1 can, or think of some system like i described in my 1st post, or change the eta bonusses, so it wuld be impossible.

* support-attack. it has come to my attention that attacking with the same person from another gal/cluster/ally, regularly, culd be considered as support. (ofc then the question is: who supports who?) This info comes from multihunters, tho im not gonna quote here. Isnt this the end of battegroups? Are we allowed to do nething outside gal/cluster/ally boundries?

Make the rules CLEAR!! Stop this subjective bias stuff!!

The support planet issue is closely related to the alliance limit issue, which is related to the ally score rules. and if im correctly informed on the alliance score rules, theres a loophole in it. after all the attempts to make the game more fair, theres still loopholes. i wont say here, what these loopholes are tho.
But my conclusion is that more rules is more/different loopholes.

so make the rules. make em clear. and simple. and accept that there will always be allies supporting other allies, in some way, for some reason. thats called politics. and thats what makes this game great. and all this multihunter crap solves nothing.
and if u want more ppl playing this game, make simple rules, and make em clear, while keeping the game itself complex, with lots of tactics that are allowed. in stead of killing every tactic that pops up.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 01:14   #6
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Re: support planet issue??

support scanners are perfectly easy to detect, with a little bit of analysis work
Scanners usually are busiest around when attacks are being planned, or an attack is happening on the alliance they 'belong' to.
The basic logic of detecting it is :
When an alliance member attacks a planet, check to see if it was scanned by someone outside of that alliance within the last 12-24 hours, and that they scanned others in that galaxy. If so mark a flag. Repeat for a number of other alliance attacks and if a certain threshold of flags is reached - mark a red flag for further investigation.
When an alliance member is attacked - check to see upon either recall or landing if that person was scanned by someone not in the alliance upon which they attacked or belong. If so - mark a flag. Similarly accumulate flags for other alliance members being attacked and if a certain threshold is reached - redflag them.
When a scanner who does not belong to a tag performs a certain threshold of scans for a specific alliance tag - redflag them.
similarly for a scanner belonging to a different tag.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 02:56   #7
GeenPorem
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Re: support planet issue??

1st. if the rules on support scanners are easy to enforce, then what stops u from closing transcendancy for being a support ally? since they give scans out to all other allies.

2nd. if u wanna kill the support ally issue, how are u gonna counter the fact that transcandancy is giving their intel (gained from the scans) to ascendancy?
is this fair? i think its smart. transcendancy is a support ally, and no mutihunter will ever be able to stop this.

with issues like this going on, i really really do not want to get closed, for deffing a friend out of gal/ally/cluster. the rules suck. and pa community is far too advanced, so every rule will get exploited before they are even enforced.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 05:58   #8
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Re: support planet issue??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeenPorem
1st. if the rules on support scanners are easy to enforce, then what stops u from closing transcendancy for being a support ally? since they give scans out to all other allies.
Because the whole mess is so damn retarded it makes people's anals bleed?
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 07:47   #9
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Re: support planet issue??

We dont ally with anyone, there is no point as we give the same info to everyone. Want my planetarion overview pasted in pm on irc cause you want to attack me?

Then just pm me, and I will gladly share information.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 13:17   #10
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Re: support planet issue??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeenPorem
2nd. if u wanna kill the support ally issue, how are u gonna counter the fact that transcandancy is giving their intel (gained from the scans) to ascendancy?
Personally, I never even look at the scans I do. Though of course, you can't take my word for it, nor be certain all Transc scanners do the same.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:06   #11
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Re: support planet issue??

Quote:
if u wanna kill the support ally issue, how are u gonna counter the fact that transcandancy is giving their intel (gained from the scans) to ascendancy?
Realistically it happened the other way. And this round I gained a good chunk of intel from jenova's own website. Maybe we could close jenova as being an ascendancy support alliance, ascendancy for supporting transcendancy by giving them the intel at the start and transcendancy for supporting everyone else. And maybe everyone else for using support alliances?


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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:57   #12
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Re: support planet issue??

GeenPorem: (retarded?)
1st: learn to read the actual passage about support planets
2nd: every alliance, if capable, can put a bot in #transc and let it autoadd the scans pasted in the channel ... the intelvalue of those scans is pretty slim anyways o.O
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:18   #13
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Re: support planet issue??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeenPorem
2nd. if u wanna kill the support ally issue, how are u gonna counter the fact that transcandancy is giving their intel (gained from the scans) to ascendancy?
...and every other ally that has members in that channel. omg close EVERYBODY!!

theres all kinds of people from different allies in that channel - all adding intel, requesting scans, talking about attacks, asking for defense (rarely but i've seen it happen). so what if the actual bot in the channel is Munin. i don't see Jenova or CT offering to put their bot in the channel for public use. But maybe Asc and Trans should be closed for being support alliances, but then something should definitely happen with Jenova who showed what, over 100 members in their arby this round?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 01:18   #14
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Re: support planet issue??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
...and every other ally that has members in that channel. omg close EVERYBODY!!
thats exactly my point, Zaejii, the rules are so broken, and culd be interpreted in so many ways, that ne1 culd get closed.

and no, im not retarded, and i dont think transcendancy shuld be closed at all. I just want to get the rules clear on these issues. For some reason, MH does not like support allies/planets. To enforce it, they focus on defence/attacks/scans in a subjective manner, while ignorring the whole *scendancy stuff of sharing scans/intel/officers and who knows what.
My point is NOT to bring down *scendancy, cus i like their innovative spirrit. But im deffing ne friend out of tag who needs it, and if MH wants to close me or my friends for being a support planet/ally or whatever, they are retarded!! Look around and open ur eyes! I doubt that ne rule will ever be able to tackle the support planet/ally issue. Allies are too far advanced for that. So make the rules clear and simple, and enforce them objectively.
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