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Unread 15 May 2007, 13:25   #1
-Blue Moon-
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[Football] West Ham / Tevez

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...em/6652931.stm
^ Tevez legal bid

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...td/6652335.stm
^ pissed off Sheff utd boss

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...em/6657697.stm
^ fifa getting involved

Those links are for a quick reference...


Just wondering what everyones' thoughts and opinions are on this...
Just recently FIFA have stated that they will launch a probe into this whole mess, Sheff Utd boss Neil Warnock is going around gathering support (7 of 20 clubs so far) for a points deduction, and the English FA claim that any appeal will fail because the 20 Premiership sides all signed the agreement at the start ofthe season.

Seems like a bit of a farce to me.

Personally I want to see West Ham relegated to the Championship - not only because I support Arsenal (and they didn't deserve to beat us), but because they need to be consistent with previous cases (Leeds, Middlesbrough, AFC Wimbledon, etc...). People may claim that their form near the end of the season justifies they stay up - but Man Utd and Liverpool both had other things on their mind, the Arsenal game was absolutely ridiculous and if they hadn't had Tevez playing who knows if they would have beaten Wigan...

The £5.5m fine they handed West Ham was quite a lot considering clubs like them generally don't have that much laying around - but considering the cash the Premiership dishes out in prize money and tv royalties it's negligable... I feel as though West Ham should have been given a points deduction, perhaps along the same lines as past teams who had fielded ineligable players. Now many people can argue there was no official rule saying that points had to be docked but it does seem unfair that AFC Wimbledon for example had pretty much the same thing happen (fielding ineligable players) and were deducted 18pts (which they disputed and had reduced to 3pt - still keeping them out of a promotion place, so obviously destroying their season)... Then there was Boro a few years back who got deducted 3pts I think for their ineligable players

So... personally I want to see the resulting inquest come up with a West Ham points deduction, their relegation, and Sheefield United's place in the Premiership re-instated.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 13:39   #2
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

An official set of rules governing the type of penalities to be given out for various types of offences is the only rational solution to this sort of thing; its silly to have bodies pretty much making up punishments as they go along because its almost guaranteed to lead to accusations of favouritism. Liverpool should also have been hammered for match-fixing but thats another story - a 10 point deduction to knock them out of the European places would probably be fair because what theyve done is pretty despicable.

Having said that, when youve been relegated by getting beat at home by your nearest candidate on the last day of the season, theres only so much you can complain about.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 13:42   #3
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Boro got deducted for not fielding a team in a particular game when they had a lot of players out. Given that they all signed an agreement at the start of the season it's difficult to see their legal recourse. Plus the fact neil warnock is a bitter ****ing loser whose team played rubbish football all year and added nothing to the premiership makes me want to see them stay the hell out of top flight football.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 14:07   #4
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

I don't know about that but if FIFA were to see that they fielded players who were inelligable then surely they need to decide if the actions taken against West Ham have been sufficient or what kind of gains they made from breaking those rules.

Irregardless of whether Sheff Utd played good football for any part of the season I'm in favour of their cause saying that:

1) West Ham fielded inelligble players
2) West Ham most likely got points from the above

I think it makes sense that if they've broken the rules and have saved themselves from relegation as a result, that Sheffield United have a decent claim - rules are there as guidance, and they are never absolute. They have every right to dispute it, and if they have enough support and evidence something might come of this.

Besides...
Sheff Utd beat West Ham 3-0 at home, and lost 1-0 away. If you want to use the playoffs as an indicator who probably deserved to go down, use that as a good indicator. Some leagues use head-to-head scores rather than GD or GF (e.g. Serbia - obviously not a direct measure, so don't go comparing the SuperLeague to the Premiership lol) ... but on that basis you could claim that Sheff Utd shouldn't be in the position they are.

(although I will concede that by that logic West Ham should end above Arsenal and Man Utd having pillaged 6points from both this year - I just used it as an example like the Play-Offs / any 2 legged match)
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Unread 15 May 2007, 14:45   #5
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

WEST HAM DID NOT FIELD INELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

West Ham fiddled the documentation on two signings, both of which had clauses they were worried about the FA agreeing with in the space of time available.

The FA's finding was that they were in the wrong for fiddling the paperwork but given the other circumstances at the club this was not a points-docking offence. There was no precedent for the specific type of third-party agreement in place so the FA created one and said they'd void Tevez's registration if the agreement was not removed. West Ham satisfied this demand (nobody is entirely clear on what happened at this stage).

There is no precedent from previous points-docking offences from the English FA and thus none from relevant case law for Sheffield United to use. If FIFA do take a look at it, however, there is obvious precedent from the SPL in the form of Hassan Kachloul - despite technically being illegally registered and deliberately so, this was due to a bureaucratic ...misunderstanding rather than his having not been able to legitimately sign at the time.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 18:46   #6
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
Personally I want to see West Ham relegated to the Championship - not only because I support Arsenal (and they didn't deserve to beat us), but because they need to be consistent with previous cases (Leeds, Middlesbrough, AFC Wimbledon, etc...). People may claim that their form near the end of the season justifies they stay up - but Man Utd and Liverpool both had other things on their mind, the Arsenal game was absolutely ridiculous and if they hadn't had Tevez playing who knows if they would have beaten Wigan...
You must be kidding me.
  1. Should we relegate Fulham while we're at it? Liverpool put out a reserve side against them thus we should relegate them, since if they'd lost like they probably would have then they would have finished on 36 points and been relegated.
  2. Claiming that West Ham shouldn't stay up because they didn't deserve to beat Arsenal is completely retarded - and I'm an Arsenal fan. They scored, we didn't - this wasn't exactly uncommon for us this season. The same applied to their match against United on the last day of the season - in fact, should we just get a bunch of staticians in a room and get them to work out each result instead of actually playing it?
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Unread 15 May 2007, 18:50   #7
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
n fact, should we just get a bunch of staticians in a room and get them to work out each result instead of actually playing it?
that, or you could play a season of FM.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 18:55   #8
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
that, or you could play a season of FM.
Don't get me started on that. FM has enough of its own bugs and overpowered players.
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Unread 15 May 2007, 21:49   #9
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You must be kidding me.
You must have missed the argument of that paragraph.

Not that there isn't a large amount of misinformation in this thread anyway.
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Unread 16 May 2007, 05:47   #10
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Sounds like a bit of a sticky wicket, eh what?

Ooops. wrong sport.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 13:41   #11
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

What happened with the MK dons this season with their fielding of an 'ineligible' player?
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Unread 17 May 2007, 13:57   #12
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
WEST HAM DID NOT FIELD INELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

West Ham fiddled the documentation on two signings, both of which had clauses they were worried about the FA agreeing with in the space of time available.
Surely if you haven't got the right paperwork, you can't be eligible to play.

Quote:
The FA's finding was that they were in the wrong for fiddling the paperwork but given the other circumstances at the club this was not a points-docking offence. There was no precedent for the specific type of third-party agreement in place so the FA created one and said they'd void Tevez's registration if the agreement was not removed. West Ham satisfied this demand (nobody is entirely clear on what happened at this stage).

There is no precedent from previous points-docking offences from the English FA and thus none from relevant case law for Sheffield United to use. If FIFA do take a look at it, however, there is obvious precedent from the SPL in the form of Hassan Kachloul - despite technically being illegally registered and deliberately so, this was due to a bureaucratic ...misunderstanding rather than his having not been able to legitimately sign at the time.
The point is that some of the circumstances are actually related to things that are irrelevant such as West Ham's fanbase and status. For a lot of the smaller clubs in the premiership this is potentially a dangerous precedent - simply because it means the premiership can save it's more established members from a points deduction yet apply things to the letter of the law whenever they want to too. West Ham deceived the league in a way that if things were properly disclosed, would have led to Tevez and Mascherano's ineligibility, so if anything it's worse than your regular fielding of an ineligible player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Plus the fact neil warnock is a bitter ****ing loser whose team played rubbish football all year and added nothing to the premiership makes me want to see them stay the hell out of top flight football.
No doubt that on football alone, Sheff United deserved to be relegated, as since they've lost Hulse to injury, they simply haven't been able to cope. However to say they added nothing to the prem is a bit harsh, I thought some of their home matches were fantastic blood and thunder stuff.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 14:02   #13
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/mihirbose/

this is also a good reference point
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Unread 17 May 2007, 16:50   #14
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Surely if you haven't got the right paperwork, you can't be eligible to play.
But if the paperwork was right, he could have been. There is a difference between this and fielding a fifth domestic loan signing or whatever which is unavoidably a breach of the rules.



Quote:
The point is that some of the circumstances are actually related to things that are irrelevant such as West Ham's fanbase and status.
Yeah, this was a stupid thing to mention in the press release. With that said, neither of the things you mention were actually what was said rather than iirc something to the effect of 'it would be unfair to punish the players and fans for something utterly beyond their control or knowledge' - still shite, but different shite with different and less alarming precedent.

Quote:
West Ham deceived the league in a way that if things were properly disclosed, would have led to Tevez and Mascherano's ineligibility
Not really true. The ruling was not clear at the time of the signings and was only clarified when the fine was given out - if there had been full disclosure at the time (last day of the season), from everything I've been told the most likely scenario is - as happened recently - West Ham would be asked to have the relevant clauses removed once the Premier League reached a decision, but with no retroactive penalty.

Quote:
No doubt that on football alone, Sheff United deserved to be relegated, as since they've lost Hulse to injury, they simply haven't been able to cope. However to say they added nothing to the prem is a bit harsh, I thought some of their home matches were fantastic blood and thunder stuff.
So were some of Wigan's. Both were appalling to watch though because it was sloppy route one stuff - technical and defensive (Bolton, Chelsea, Spurs from time to time) is okay, hoof and hope doesn't deserve respect.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 22:37   #15
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Yeah, this was a stupid thing to mention in the press release. With that said, neither of the things you mention were actually what was said rather than iirc something to the effect of 'it would be unfair to punish the players and fans for something utterly beyond their control or knowledge' - still shite, but different shite with different and less alarming precedent.
Even if this is true, what about justice for other fans and players of clubs who didn't break the rules? West Ham's fans are not the only fans in the premiership. The fact that a points deduction would have condemned West Ham's premiership status should have been irrelevant also. Were West Ham in midtable security or deep in the relegation zone, I have no doubt that there would have been a points deduction. League position should be irrelevant to punishment.

Furthermore, there is another example of favouritism by the board towards larger clubs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihir Bose
And the Premier League commission feared a possible backlash from Chelsea had West Ham entered the final fixture at Old Trafford already relegated because of a points deduction
Any fan of the less established clubs in the premier league has every right to be alarmed by this ruling. I was not surprised when Middlesbrough lent their support to the legal action, for example.

A lot of people's arguments (not necessarily yours) boils down to the motivation that they enjoy watching Carlos Tevez and will do anything to justify his presence in the premier league. I enjoyed watching him too, but as a fan of a premiership club, this isn't just about entertainment, it's about having a properly run league, where my club gets a fair crack of the whip. This decision doesn't lend anything towards that and just further goes to show up the incompetence of the English footballing authorities.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 23:58   #16
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Even if this is true, what about justice for other fans and players of clubs who didn't break the rules? West Ham's fans are not the only fans in the premiership. The fact that a points deduction would have condemned West Ham's premiership status should have been irrelevant also.
Or rather, relegation was decided on the pitch

Quote:
Were West Ham in midtable security or deep in the relegation zone, I have no doubt that there would have been a points deduction. League position should be irrelevant to punishment.
Why do you have no doubt? I've restated exactly why the punishment fit the crime a couple of times now, do you feel like factoring that in at any point? Or reading it, even?

Quote:
Furthermore, there is another example of favouritism by the board towards larger clubs:
It's someone else's conspiracy theory on their blog. Don't give it more weight because of where its published.

Quote:
A lot of people's arguments (not necessarily yours) boils down to the motivation that they enjoy watching Carlos Tevez and will do anything to justify his presence in the premier league. I enjoyed watching him too, but as a fan of a premiership club, this isn't just about entertainment, it's about having a properly run league, where my club gets a fair crack of the whip.
If this was relevant to the discussion I'd understand why you spent so much time phrasing it so nicely.

Quote:
This decision doesn't lend anything towards that and just further goes to show up the incompetence of the English footballing authorities.
Justify this claim.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 01:32   #17
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
Or rather, relegation was decided on the pitch....Why do you have no doubt? I've restated exactly why the punishment fit the crime a couple of times now, do you feel like factoring that in at any point? Or reading it, even?
Why we have points deductions in football

The point of points deductions is that it stops cheating off the pitch that results in gaining an advantage on it. In an era where fines are largely meaningless to a lot of clubs you have to hurt teams on pitch performance by taking points off them because it's the only way to stop teams from cheating. If you want to give a grand defence about why we shouldn't have points deductions, go ahead.

The logic of the decision

West Ham decided to get players of exceptional quality by their standards which they couldn't get without them being subject to third party contracts and hid this fact so they got registered. Tevez couldn't even be registered properly after the tribunal without these contracts being cancelled, which suggests that had the FA known about them initially, registration would never have taken place. West Ham are thus guilty of fielding ineligible players. The decision simply focusses on West Ham's deceit and the fact that this MSI contract exists and stops there, yet at the same time insisted that for Tevez to be eligible play again, the MSI contract had to be cancelled.

So the decision is quite simply, a fudge. On the one hand it dismisses player ineligibility, yet at the same time insists action is taken for the players to become eligible to play football. So they must have been ineligible previous to the decision being made.

The context of the decision and the punishment that fits the crime

I think it's widely accepted that there is a history in the football league and football in England/Britain in general that fielding ineligible players leads to points deduction. As i have shown above the player was clearly ineligible,so this punishment should apply.

And the crime be it in the lower leagues by AFC Wimbledon or in the premier with West Ham it is no different, if anything the lower league team should be given more leeway as they are not even a professional setup.

The decision by the panel clearly refers to West Ham's relegation being an issue and that any points deduction which would cause relegation be excessively harsh on the club and their fans. To display such sentiments is plain favouritism in my view. Middlesborough were relegated due to a points deduction not so many years ago and teams like Bury have lost out on lucrative cup ties which for them really are life or death. Previous cases have shown that where you are in terms of success for your club is largely irrelevant, yet apparently West Ham have been allowed to get away with this.

From this, it's easy to conclude that were West Ham out of a position of controversy, they would have been deducted points because the board would have had no issue with them being relegated as their status would have been certain either way.

Quote:
It's someone else's conspiracy theory on their blog. Don't give it more weight because of where its published.
It comes across as though he's heard something from someone about how the decision came about and he's the BBC's sports editor, so he's got some kind of reputation to look after in terms of him speculating. Not saying they aren't capable of sensationalism like the tabloids but it's somewhat less likely.

Quote:
Justify this claim.
What I wrote above

Wembley - in every aspect

Anything to do with Sven Goran Eriksson from the day they decided to give him a contract extension

Steve McLaren

The lack of a decent academy system in this country

Charging WBA and Derby fans £70 for tickets behind the goal at the play off final, disgusting.

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons that people can name but I felt this was a good start. They are incompetent in every way in my opinion.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 01:34   #18
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
Justify this claim.
One of the stated reasons for a fine, rather than a points deduction, was that it was unfair on West Ham's fans.

That goes some way towards supporting the "large clubs bias" and "incompetence" charges.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 02:17   #19
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
There was no precedent for the specific type of third-party agreement in place so the FA created one and said they'd void Tevez's registration if the agreement was not removed. West Ham satisfied this demand (nobody is entirely clear on what happened at this stage).
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Not really true. The ruling was not clear at the time of the signings and was only clarified when the fine was given out - if there had been full disclosure at the time (last day of the season), from everything I've been told the most likely scenario is - as happened recently - West Ham would be asked to have the relevant clauses removed once the Premier League reached a decision, but with no retroactive penalty.
Three times now lok, in increasing depth and with more examples, you have made an argument I've already replied to. Please now take the time to read the two above paragraphs, or this one-sentence summary: The Terry Brown-era board obviously acted like ****s over the whole thing but it was not obvious at the time that the two players were ineligible given the wording of the contracts and of the rules.


With regards to the 'harsh on the fans' thing: This was an odd and hugely flawed inclusion in the list of seven reasons, but other entries such as 'the rules weren't clear' and 'the culprits aren't there' are rather more sound and rather more important so I can understand why nobody is spending much time talking about them.


Oh and if you are trying to say BBC Sport avoid sensationalism and never offer speculation as fact then christ knows what you're reading. Did you know Scott Brown definitely moved to Rangers on the 11th of January? I can imagine Keith Lamb was upset, seeing how Boro definitely tabled a £5.5 million bid a few days ago. I can imagine his assertion - after Brown's agent confirmed the £4.4m signing for Celtic a few hours after the BBC announced Lamb's definite bid - that Southgate was merely looking at signing the player was born out of a desire to save face.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 02:58   #20
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
said they'd void Tevez's registration if the agreement was not removed
How is this any basis to say that Tevez would have been validly registered had West Ham not concealed it? They clearly demand that for a valid registration to happen, the agreement should not exist. So he can't have been validly registered at any point.

Quote:
Not really true. The ruling was not clear at the time of the signings and was only clarified when the fine was given out - if there had been full disclosure at the time (last day of the season), from everything I've been told the most likely scenario is - as happened recently - West Ham would be asked to have the relevant clauses removed once the Premier League reached a decision, but with no retroactive penalty.
Then why couldn't they do that to register Tevez after the decision and instead were compelled to tear up that contract? It seems that this contract isn't acceptable in any form and is a clear barrier to any registration. There is no consistency here.

If you're in doubt, refer it to the premier league. If you act like ****s, hide it because you are afraid you might have broken the rules and then get nailed as a result, tough shit. That's West Ham's fault and no one elses, not even the Premier League's.

The whole decision goes back on itself. It's a complete fudge. Your argument is rubbish because it's in line with the way the decision was made.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 12:00   #21
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

But at the end of the day, will football in the Premiership be of a higher quality?
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Unread 18 May 2007, 12:11   #22
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
But at the end of the day, will football in the Premiership be of a higher quality?
Irrelevant.

This season has been a terrible premiership anyway. A team without a goal scorer finished 9th as defences don't count on this forum. In the grand scheme of things we're pretty rubbish yet finished top half.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 12:19   #23
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Re: [Football] West Ham / Tevez

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Irrelevant.

This season has been a terrible premiership anyway. A team without a goal scorer finished 9th as defences don't count on this forum. In the grand scheme of things we're pretty rubbish yet finished top half.
tell me about it! We finished second in the league and with only a maximum of two cups in the trophy cabinet. Plagued with injuries and our manager was arrested for hiding his dog!

Can things possibly get any worse? :crymeariver:
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