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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:27   #151
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Ahhh Einstein lovers
I'm not into guys.

Also, this was never intended to become a discussion about Einstein so let's not make it so.

Tzu mentioned Einstein because you'd said that it was 'RETARDS' who were largely guilty of opposing quantum theory. Einstein is an example of one particular opponent to QT who could not be described as a retard.

Ergo, accusing us of being retards on the basis we disagreed with a particular notion/theory was proved to be faulty logic.

If you have something to contribute to the discussion on Alliance Limits then please, do share. Otherwise shut up and f*ck off.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:31   #152
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Re: Alliance player limit

I fullheartedly think the alliance cap should be 30-40.

May I ask, what the **** did your dismal apple analogy have to do with the topic of debate? Other than an imature attempt to patronise those that don't agree with you.

I would have stayed out, but when you start saying fancy phrases like "scientific theory" or whatever, to try and make yourselves look like big boys, urgh.

Furthermore, since you and tzu are bumchums, sprouting the exact same opinions (who's are they? his or your's?) - I would say there's more call for you to **** off. Or him. You're effectively double-posting constantly.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:36   #153
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Re: Alliance player limit

It ok BigGayAl we've all taken to just skipping over Sun Tzu waffle now - its funny you can ignore it and the thread still makes sense - its almost like hes not contributing at all.


The only thing that bugs me is not wether 50 man tags or 100 man tags or no tags would be better its the fact that the Asc members on this forum are soo against the lower tag limits. As people who play this game reasonably seriously i thought you would embrace changes to it and ways to improve it and increase the playerbase and the enjoyment levels or are you happy to sit there in your ivory towers sneering down on everyone else with a differing opinion to yours whilst the game dies??
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:36   #154
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
I fullheartedly think the alliance cap should be 30-40.
Perhaps we could talk more about this instead of letting you post random made up shit about the history of general relativity!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:37   #155
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The only thing that bugs me is not wether 50 man tags or 100 man tags or no tags would be better its the fact that the Asc members on this forum are soo against the lower tag limits. As people who play this game reasonably seriously i thought you would embrace changes to it and ways to improve it and increase the playerbase and the enjoyment levels or are you happy to sit there in your ivory towers sneering down on everyone else with a differing opinion to yours whilst the game dies??
I've already said I'm against that. I don't really think many people in Ascendancy have come out and said they are either. Most people are just saying it won't make a difference.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:41   #156
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
I fullheartedly think the alliance cap should be 30-40.

May I ask, what the **** did your dismal apple analogy have to do with the topic of debate? Other than an imature attempt to patronise those that don't agree with you.

I would have stayed out, but when you start saying fancy phrases like "scientific theory" or whatever, to try and make yourselves look like big boys, urgh.

Furthermore, since you and tzu are bumchums, sprouting the exact same opinions (who's are they? his or your's?) - I would say there's more call for you to **** off. Or him. You're effectively double-posting constantly.
Forgive me for having a mate with whom I happen to agree with on a number of issues. I realise having somebody like-minded to ascociate with can be confusing for some people, but I assure you it's almost entirely heterosexual.

Also, my apple relevence was illustrating to faults in the logic of the person with whom I was disagreeing with and consequently directly relevent to the argument.

Because you seem to have missed the point, I'll try and dumb it down for you scientist types...

"Despite the outcome of setting alliance limits to 50 with full score contribution being almost fully predictable, I think we should try it anyway just to be 100% sure"

then

"Despite knowing that if I drop an apple, its very predictable as to what will happen next - I still think we should drop the apple to just see if anything happens to stop it reaching the floor".

Surely you can see the error in the logic of both of the above, and how similar the apple analogy is to what Kaiba was suggesting we do?

Also, I don't remember using the phrase 'scientific theory'. I know we agree on a few things, but tzu and I are two seperate people so if you'd like to argue then please do so on an individual basis.

And, if you're going to do that, can I ask that you please do so in pm as to not further derail this conversation?

Thank you kindly.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:44   #157
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Ahhh Einstein lovers

Ok, lets drop QM and look at relativity. Einstein's theory was shunned, both at the theoretical level and because NOTHING backed it up in experiment. Or very nearly nothing if something did - I'm not a fan of relativity, bores me to death - so not 100% sure on my history here.

Einstein was totally ignored, and I dare say ridiculed about his hypothesis. I'll be amazed if he wasn't - as nice as the maths & hypothesis was, it was a little weird at the time.

Then was it 1919? or sometime, there was a solar eclipse - Einstein proven right, relativity replaces (or supersedes) the existing laws of physics.

Better analogy for you?

If there was never an experiment done to confirm relativity (nothing that had been observed uptil then suggested the current laws of physics were flawed), then relativity would be nothing more than an obscure theory - probably in a few textbooks here and there because of the nice maths used.
Well, I'll have to disagree with you on this again, and refer you to kuro5hin for the history of it: Introduction to the Theory of Relativity

There were issues with the nature and speed of light, which was actually where Einstein got his start, resolving the question of why light acts as it does.

History of general relativity

Now with actual relativity, we're stepping on the toes of Newton, but this is not actually a problem, as this quote shows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Within a century of Newton's formulation, careful astronomical observation revealed unexplainable variations between the theory and the observations. Under Newton's model, gravity was the result of an attractive force between massive objects. Although even Newton was bothered by the unknown nature of that force, the basic framework was extremely successful at describing motion.
So there were problems known even during Newtons day with his theory. In reality, Einstein attempted to resolve these problems, not by ignoring Newton, but by standing on his shoulders. Special and General relativity are therefor natural results of the further refinement of Newtons laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In the early years after Einstein's theory was published, Sir Arthur Eddington lent his considerable prestige in the British scientific establishment in an effort to champion the work of this German scientist. Because the theory was so complex and abstruse (even today it is popularly considered the pinnacle of scientific thinking; in the early years it was even more so), it was rumored that only three people in the world understood it. There was an illuminating, though probably apocryphal, anecdote about this. As related by Ludwik Silberstein,[4] during one of Eddington's lectures he asked "Professor Eddington, you must be one of three persons in the world who understands general relativity." Eddington paused, unable to answer. Silberstein continued "Don't be modest, Eddington!" Finally, Eddington replied "On the contrary, I'm trying to think who the third person is."
This quote further shows how few quite understood the theory, however this is not the same as stating that he was ignored or ridiculed. In fact I seem to remember there being held competitions during the early years for who could best explain the theory of relativity.

Naturally, before it was proven it was simply that, an elegant theory. And indeed had it not been proven, it would have stayed an elegant theory. However, the 1919 experiment you allude to concerning the bending of light was in fact based on the classical tests laid out by Einstein during 1916:
Tests of general relativity

As the article on the testing of general relativity states in the opening paragraph, special relativity was already held to be true at this point, and general relativity was seen as a good philosophical explanation unifying Newtons laws and special relativity:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
At its introduction in 1915, the general theory of relativity did not have a solid empirical foundation. It was known that it correctly accounted for the "anomalous" precession of the perihelion of Mercury and on philosophical grounds it was considered satisfying that it was able to unify Newton's law of universal gravitation with special relativity. That light appeared to bend in gravitational fields in line with the predictions of general relativity was found in 1919 but it was not until a program of precision tests was started in 1959 that the various predictions of general relativity were tested to any further degree of accuracy in the weak gravitational field limit, severely limiting possible deviations from the theory.
I hope this was at least somewhat interesting to someone reading this, which I suppose is the only real point of this thread at this point
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:49   #158
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Re: Alliance player limit

OMG hes using wikipedia as a source - FANTASTIC it must be real now!!!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:50   #159
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
OMG hes using wikipedia as a source - FANTASTIC it must be real now!!!
It's rather hard to link to an actual science textbook online. Suffice it to say that in this case wikipedia did not get the basic facts of the history of relativity wrong.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:53   #160
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Re: Alliance player limit

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OMG hes using wikipedia as a source - FANTASTIC it must be real now!!!
Actually he was using it as a reference. Learn the difference please.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:56   #161
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Re: Alliance player limit

a reference and a source are the same thing wikipedia is full of bullshit so if he is referencing to prove a point then he fails cos its wikipedia the most unrealiable thing in the world bar the pa team !!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:56   #162
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Re: Alliance player limit

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It ok BigGayAl we've all taken to just skipping over Sun Tzu waffle now - its funny you can ignore it and the thread still makes sense - its almost like hes not contributing at all.
That's because others tend to re-iterate my points, because they agree with them.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:01   #163
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
a reference and a source are the same thing wikipedia is full of bullshit so if he is referencing to prove a point then he fails cos its wikipedia the most unrealiable thing in the world bar the pa team !!
No, it isn't. If you're looking for cutting edge research or in-depth analysis wikipedia is a poor place to look. If however you are looking for the history of a, by now, widely known and accepted theory, wikipedia is a fairly good place to look. If you want to criticise the specific articles linked I'd advise that you find something in there that isn't actually true and start posting about it. Otherwise, no.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:04   #164
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Re: Alliance player limit

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a reference and a source are the same thing wikipedia is full of bullshit so if he is referencing to prove a point then he fails cos its wikipedia the most unrealiable thing in the world bar the pa team !!
Firstly, a reference is not the same as a source:
Merriam Webster: Reference
Merriam Webster: Source

One refers to a source, to this extent you are correct. However, a reference does not have to be to the actual first hand material. Indeed, wikipedia itself includes references to the actual sources, thereby making it a secondary source.

As to the reliability of Wikipedia, there have been studies made on this subject:

BBC: Wikipedia survives research test

A more complete history of fact checking Wikipedia is found, where else, but on Wikipedia:
Reliability of Wikipedia
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:07   #165
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
a reference and a source are the same thing wikipedia is full of bullshit so if he is referencing to prove a point then he fails cos its wikipedia the most unrealiable thing in the world bar the pa team !!
A source is somewhere from where information is first presented. You're assuming tzu learned the things he's talking about from wikipedia. Quoting wikipedia (which is largely a composition of information derived from actual sources) was simply an easy-access route to delivering the information required without, as JBG said, citing original scientifics texts/journals which aren't commonly available to the masses.

Seriously kid, encyclopedias aren't where information comes from - its where information is collected and presented for ease of access. All the contents come from information gathered elsewhere. Hence, quoting an encyclopedia cannot be considered quoting a source - it's simply referencing information.

Have you never noticed the "citation needed" comments spread across wikipedia?
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:09   #166
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Re: Alliance player limit

Damn, beaten by both JBG and Tzu.

Anyway, I think you get the point.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:11   #167
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Re: Alliance player limit

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I would have stayed out, but when you start saying fancy phrases like "scientific theory" or whatever, to try and make yourselves look like big boys, urgh.
The talk of "scientific theory" was largely me, and was in reference to my own field, Economics, more specifically my specialized field of study which is leadership and organization, including human resource management. It touches largely on Psychology and Game Theory. You'll have to excuse us, but our means of proving things tend to be rather different, as you can't usually simply line up a mass of people and force them to live according to your theories, and as such we rely on statistical observations and data to create hypothesis which are then tested against observations in other randoms samplings of data. As it holds up, the theory is said to be scientifically sound.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:18   #168
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Re: Alliance player limit

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As people who play this game reasonably seriously i thought you would embrace changes to it and ways to improve it and increase the playerbase and the enjoyment levels or are you happy to sit there in your ivory towers sneering down on everyone else with a differing opinion to yours whilst the game dies??
You are artificially limiting the optional outcomes. Here are the actual outcomes:

1. Care for playerbase and game + Agree that means proposed will produce the wanted result.
2. Care for playerbase and game + Disagree that means proposed will produce the wanted result.
3. Lack of care for playerbase and game + Agree that means proposed will produce the wanted result.
4. Lack of care for playerbase and game + Disagree that means proposed will produce the wanted result.

I believe I've already stated that I am firmly in the second category, and as a former contributor to the development of this game, I and others, such as at least Theam and JBG, have clearly proven that we are willing to work to make this game better for all.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:20   #169
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Re: Alliance player limit

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are you happy to sit there in your ivory towers
It does get a bit drafty, but the view is fantastic...
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:21   #170
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Re: Alliance player limit

quite interesting tzu - like I said, I wasn't sure on my relativity knowledge - just going off the general impression I'd gathered over the years. I'm very surprised I'm that wrong though... but lack inclination to read up on the boring area. Your article is also highly biassed which makes me question it's authenticity in some areas. Similarly I could para-phrase a quote from Richard Feynman - something like: "anyone can understand relativity - no on understands quantum mechanics.". And I can assure you he did understand relativity And its certainly a viewpoint I agree fully with, though I never did the proper hardcore general relativity at a high level.

Oh, on a minor sidenote, "So there were problems known even during Newtons day with his theory." - those are almost theological problems with the theory. Sure they existed, but sure as hell weren't motivation for a new theory, or any indication that the theory was wrong.

I want 30-40 man tags based on my 9yr experience of pa. I have no inclination to discuss it though: I understand that you chaps have thought about it far longer and harder than I have (does not make you right). There isn't a single point I could make where you wouldn't angrilly mock it and paste a link to some relatively flimsy data to back you up. You are also all extremely one-sided on the issue, and are almost ganging up on anyone that thinks differently. Finally, I also don't fancy being patronised by the likes of kenny, when I can't physically reach out and smack him about.

Aye, think I'll leave you all to..... erm, continue going round in circles. Have fun patronising the people who haven't penetrated your intimate circle kenny! Good luck kaiba!

(ps. the posts by tzu and jester were pretty great, for what its worth... but just because you go to that effort to discuss your point, doesn't mean kaiba/etc are to be ignored+ridiculed just because they won't do it themselves)
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:23   #171
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
I want 30-40 man tags based on my 9yr experience of pa. I have no inclination to discuss it though:
Perhaps you failed to see the title of this forum on your way in...
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:28   #172
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Re: Alliance player limit

I did! Twice. Think appoco needs to be told it says planetarion, not ascendancy & friends.

I would discuss my logic if it hadn't already been mentioned previously. It has, it was dismissed. What exactly can be gained by me repeating it? Pretty sure I'm still ok to post my opinion though....?

I dunno, you're the forums God, you tell me.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:35   #173
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Re: Alliance player limit

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I'm very surprised I'm that wrong though...
I applaud you for being big enough to admit that; you don't see it on the forums very often. Good show.

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
There isn't a single point I could make where you wouldn't angrilly mock it and paste a link to some relatively flimsy data to back you up. You are also all extremely one-sided on the issue, and are almost ganging up on anyone that thinks differently. Finally, I also don't fancy being patronised by the likes of kenny, when I can't physically reach out and smack him about.
Such is your inability to sufficiently argue your point, you vent your frustrations in the form of theoretical violence? Interesting...

Also, by way of example on the page prior to this one (I think, I'm not going to check) HeimdallR made a very well structured post which explained the reasoning behind his opinions which you'll find was actually well-received by myself at least. I did go on to disagree with him, but I did so in a manner that was respectful of the merit of his own argument.

I honestly don't mind somebody having an opinion that differs from my own, and if they take the time to explain themselves I can even empathise with their opinion. The reason I've taken heed to some posters on this forum more than others is simply due to the manner in which they've opted to do so. I took issue with Kaiba because he either couldn't be bothered to listen to what was being said, or on some level was unable to comprehend what was being said. In your case, I only singled you out for attention because you came in to the discussion calling me (amongst others) a retard without any direct provacation.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:35   #174
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
I did! Twice. Think appoco needs to be told it says planetarion, not ascendancy & friends.

I would discuss my logic if it hadn't already been mentioned previously. It has, it was dismissed. What exactly can be gained by me repeating it? Pretty sure I'm still ok to post my opinion though....?
Sure. But getting all angry at people for pointing out that the data doesn't support your conclusion is pointless. It doesn't. Of course it's not 100% reliable, what on earth could that even mean in this context anyways, but if you're going to be discussing something and not just posting about what you like you have to start somewhere.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:39   #175
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
I did! Twice. Think appoco needs to be told it says planetarion, not ascendancy & friends.

I would discuss my logic if it hadn't already been mentioned previously. It has, it was dismissed. What exactly can be gained by me repeating it? Pretty sure I'm still ok to post my opinion though....?

I dunno, you're the forums God, you tell me.
BGA, tbh that's a quite weak response.
As JBG has told before there were just 3 Asc people posting and Sun_Tzu... although his rhetoric is a bit... authocratic perhaps :P he IS making sound and valid points. Oh and Kenny, handpuppet of Sun_Tzu although he claims different, is posting.

I would like to invite you to show or rephrase your arguments of why alliances should be 30-40 people. Then we can further discuss.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:39   #176
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
quite interesting tzu - like I said, I wasn't sure on my relativity knowledge - just going off the general impression I'd gathered over the years. I'm very surprised I'm that wrong though... but lack inclination to read up on the boring area. Your article is also highly biassed which makes me question it's authenticity in some areas. Similarly I could para-phrase a quote from Richard Feynman - something like: "anyone can understand relativity - no on understands quantum mechanics.". And I can assure you he did understand relativity And its certainly a viewpoint I agree fully with, though I never did the proper hardcore general relativity at a high level.

Oh, on a minor sidenote, "So there were problems known even during Newtons day with his theory." - those are almost theological problems with the theory. Sure they existed, but sure as hell weren't motivation for a new theory, or any indication that the theory was wrong.
I'll confess my main interest in relativity is that there are areas of it which I never quite felt at ease with. Even so, you imply that Einstein simply replaced Newton, which is a misrepresentation of the facts. He refined and unified previous theories, and although the outcome looks new and strange, the process reveals the actuality of it. After all, science is hardly ever about giant leaps but small, incremental improvements which over time shift the perspective. The idea of great revelations is simply a misconception because the public isn't aware of the gruntwork in between each step.

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
There isn't a single point I could make where you wouldn't angrilly mock it and paste a link to some relatively flimsy data to back you up. You are also all extremely one-sided on the issue, and are almost ganging up on anyone that thinks differently.

...

(ps. the posts by tzu and jester were pretty great, for what its worth... but just because you go to that effort to discuss your point, doesn't mean kaiba/etc are to be ignored+ridiculed just because they won't do it themselves)
I would gladly hear your arguments, and I for one would not be inclined to dismiss them without first considering them. If I did so, I'd be a hypocrite for expecting others to try and take in and understand my arguments.

I believe that largely what you have identified as "angry mocking", "ignoring" and "ridicule" is due to the stated attitude of Kaiba and others. They have not only failed to even attempt to address the points made by myself and others, but have also out right stated that they disregard these posts because of the origin of the argument or an unwillingness to try and understand the opposing arguments.

As long as someone is willing to honestly debate me on a subject, I will oblige to the best of my ability. If proven wrong, I will accept that. However, when I encounter people who are intellectually lazy and either do not wish to engage in real, meaningful discussion or who wish to have all the answers handed to them, my tone changes. Put simply, such an unwillingness to learn and comprehend, and such a disregard for scientific theory as has been displayed by Kaiba and others when at their worst, disgusts me.

I hope this is of some use to explain my actions, as you don't seem wholly unreasonable, even if you do study quantum theory :P

ps. String Theory is bullshit
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:51   #177
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
BGA, tbh that's a quite weak response.
As JBG has told before there were just 3 Asc people posting and Sun_Tzu... although his rhetoric is a bit... authocratic perhaps :P he IS making sound and valid points. Oh and Kenny, handpuppet of Sun_Tzu although he claims different, is posting.
Oh, I'm very much a complete a-hole, or at least I'm happy to let people think as much I actually received pm's from Mz earlier during this thread expressing his surprise as to how patient I was being in arguing my point. Needless to say, that patience wasn't endless.

As for mr. Muppet, i.e. Kenny my dear <3 Even though we're good friends and do tend to agree on things, that isn't always the case, and he does tend to come at things from a slightly different point of view than I do. Case in point, his further explanation of how different tiers of alliances source their members. Also, the only post I've discussed with Kenny beforehand was my rant to him on MSN about physics. His post on alliance tiers was posted 2 minutes after mine, showing he was clearly independently on the same track as I was, regardless of my influence.

What can I say, great minds think alike. And fast minds get to scream "FIRST!" in every topic.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:54   #178
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
As for mr. Muppet
I'm fairly sure he said 'puppet'.

edit:

Membrivio, wouldn't a puppet master be the one you couldn't see that was pulling the strings with almost full anonymity? If I were you, I'd perhaps say a ventriloquism act was a more apt analogy.

Either way, pay no attention to the man behind the curtains...
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Unread 16 May 2010, 20:57   #179
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Re: Alliance player limit

can someone skim through the 4 pages we have so far and see what points/arguments are still standing, which are not backed up? would make it easier to present some form of conclusion.

also, maybe we should get the people from #alliances to discuss on this as well, so at some point, anyone actually had a read in this.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 21:43   #180
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
As long as someone is willing to honestly debate me on a subject, I will oblige to the best of my ability. If proven wrong, I will accept that. However, when I encounter people who are intellectually lazy and either do not wish to engage in real, meaningful discussion or who wish to have all the answers handed to them, my tone changes. Put simply, such an unwillingness to learn and comprehend, and such a disregard for scientific theory as has been displayed by Kaiba and others when at their worst, disgusts me.
So lets say kaiba is like CBA, and actually lacks the intelligence to debate on your level ... does that make his opinion wrong? Let me ask you ... honestly ... before you sat down and thought about this deeply, were you for or against a 30-50man alliance cap? Do you honestly think you have thought about everything impartially? Would you agree it is almost impossible to prove you wrong without actually testing it in practise?

I don't care much for mz's graphs either (long time since I actually saw them, skipped over that bit today) - I do remember thinking "interesting", followed by "data set is too small to actually legitimise the results". Of course, nothing can be done about that, its the only data available - but to use it as "proof" to "help win" an argument isn't really on, and would get laughed out of physics, hopefully economics too - or maybe not, based on the past few years Then again, I'm not a statistics expert - just going off my intuition built up over the years talking to experimentalists - could be the results are quite legitimate. Don't think I'll call in any favours to find out, but feel free to insist that they are if you know otherwise! I will succumb to an expert's view on this point quite hapilly without getting my knickers in a twist

This debate is like politics for me - it all more or less comes down to your fundamental philosophy on life (pa) - which depends strongly on your upbringing (what alliances you've been in). Your opinions+proof are all built up around that, for most people. If any of you chaps that are against small tags can honestly say that you started out pro-small tags, but have since been dissuaded by these arguments.... I might eat my own words Otherwise this thread is like watching tories (mostly, sophisticated with good educations and grammar) battling it out with labourites (mostly, the opposite ). Or if hcs of more varied alliances all came in going "i agree with tzu" I may eat my own words as well!

And I know I've dodged posting my own ""logic"" again, really can't be bothered since its all gonna be repeats - may well do it though. Though I like to think I've posted for the last time for a few years \o/ Sorry to disappoint you membrivio.

Basically, all my posts have been one long-winded version of "I think these forums are pretty bad (though amusing in areas) and don't encourage proper debate or discussion at all, whatsoever - so I won't bother contributing, whilst still posting instead of ****ing off and leaving you to it"
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Unread 16 May 2010, 21:55   #181
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Oh, I'm very much a complete a-hole, or at least I'm happy to let people think as much I actually received pm's from Mz earlier during this thread expressing his surprise as to how patient I was being in arguing my point. Needless to say, that patience wasn't endless.

As for mr. Muppet, i.e. Kenny my dear <3 Even though we're good friends and do tend to agree on things, that isn't always the case, and he does tend to come at things from a slightly different point of view than I do. Case in point, his further explanation of how different tiers of alliances source their members. Also, the only post I've discussed with Kenny beforehand was my rant to him on MSN about physics. His post on alliance tiers was posted 2 minutes after mine, showing he was clearly independently on the same track as I was, regardless of my influence.

What can I say, great minds think alike. And fast minds get to scream "FIRST!" in every topic.
I tried to make a funny, Mr. Serious Science.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 21:59   #182
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
I'm fairly sure he said 'puppet'.

edit:

Membrivio, wouldn't a puppet master be the one you couldn't see that was pulling the strings with almost full anonymity? If I were you, I'd perhaps say a ventriloquism act was a more apt analogy.

Either way, pay no attention to the man behind the curtains...
I said handpuppet :P

Also: heh.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:03   #183
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
This debate is like politics for me - it all more or less comes down to your fundamental philosophy on life (pa) - which depends strongly on your upbringing (what alliances you've been in). Your opinions+proof are all built up around that, for most people. If any of you chaps that are against small tags can honestly say that you started out pro-small tags, but have since been dissuaded by these arguments.... I might eat my own words
I've been in an alliance which had 20 members and an alliance which had 120 members. I'm not against small tags though. I'm against talking out of your ass.

Quote:
Basically, all my posts have been one long-winded version of "I think these forums are pretty bad (though amusing in areas) and don't encourage proper debate or discussion at all, whatsoever - so I won't bother contributing, whilst still posting instead of ****ing off and leaving you to it"
You sure have made an awe-inspiringly shit contribution from your initial appearance in this thread insulting people to your lack of historical knowledge to your unwillingness to discuss things. Seriously, if you don't like it, don't post.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:08   #184
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Re: Alliance player limit

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And I know I've dodged posting my own ""logic"" again, really can't be bothered since its all gonna be repeats - may well do it though. Though I like to think I've posted for the last time for a few years \o/ Sorry to disappoint you membrivio.

Basically, all my posts have been one long-winded version of "I think these forums are pretty bad (though amusing in areas) and don't encourage proper debate or discussion at all, whatsoever - so I won't bother contributing, whilst still posting instead of ****ing off and leaving you to it"
I now challenge you to transform into a new mode of BigGayAl! (I just watched Transformers and I liked it )

I am just curious what your logic is. Too bad I'll never know. You could pm me though, I won't bite you :P
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:10   #185
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
You sure have made an awe-inspiringly shit contribution from your initial appearance in this thread insulting people to your lack of historical knowledge to your unwillingness to discuss things. Seriously, if you don't like it, don't post.
Unlike your mate ellonweb who wandered into the thread and discussed it well He definitely didn't show signs of anger like I did, that you felt compelled to point out for me.

edit #2: if I do post my own wonderfully awesome logic that I must have, being a theoretical scientist and all, it'll be an essay of perfection like tzu's, and I'll take my time over it! Make sure the grammar is perfectemondo.

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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:32   #186
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Unlike your mate ellonweb who wandered into the thread and discussed it well He definitely didn't show signs of anger like I did, that you felt compelled to point out for me.
ellonweb's posting could certainly be described in this thread as angry. However he has actually posted some arguments and made some points. You have not. In fact you've gloried in the fact that you're not posting arguments. Great contribution

Quote:
edit #2: if I do post my own wonderfully awesome logic that I must have, being a theoretical scientist and all, it'll be an essay of perfection like tzu's, and I'll take my time over it! Make sure the grammar is perfectemondo.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Or much of your previous post. Maybe a couple of more poor quality jokes will liven this thread up!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:37   #187
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
This debate is like politics for me - it all more or less comes down to your fundamental philosophy on life (pa) - which depends strongly on your upbringing (what alliances you've been in). Your opinions+proof are all built up around that, for most people. If any of you chaps that are against small tags can honestly say that you started out pro-small tags, but have since been dissuaded by these arguments.... I might eat my own words Otherwise this thread is like watching tories (mostly, sophisticated with good educations and grammar) battling it out with labourites (mostly, the opposite ). Or if hcs of more varied alliances all came in going "i agree with tzu" I may eat my own words as well!
I can hand-on-heart say that I used to be pro-small tags. While I'd ask that you take my word for it rather than force me to find the proof, I can honestly say that 10~ rounds ago I was very much in favour of 50-man tags with full player score contribution.

At the time I was just starting my own alliance and the logic was that if I could get 50 people in a tag I would be able to compete with other 50-man tags on an even playing field. I didn't get my wish, the limit was set to 75 with t60 contributing.

So yes, you're right. I agree with the whole 'perspective' thing you're referring to, but I'd be keen to stress that now I'm not trying to build an alliance that can numerically compete with other alliances, my judgement is no longer 'clouded' by perspective.

At the end of the day this comes down to a 'bigger picture' argument. People of habitually smaller tags would like some kind of system in place that would help put them in a position whereby at least in theory they'd be able to compete by restricting the size of their opposition. In reality this will never work and in practise will be bad for the game.

So yes - my mind was changed through a combination of logically sound posts made on the forums, many of which from people with whom I don't see eye to eye with personally, and personal experience.

Seriously - can anyone put their hand on their heart and say that limiting the alliance tags to 50 will mean a 50-man NewDawn is any more likely to beat a 50-man Asc? Or will that, if anything, ensure the dominance of the alliance with the highest average skill level? Can anyone explain to me how forcing NewDawn to lower their member base to 50 is going to be any better for NewDawn when it comes to competing against other alliances?

I think in PA anyone who wants to lead an alliance, does. If you're capable of leading an alliance then you do so. You get your HC team together, recruit the people for your alliance you want and then play the round out as an alliance. At times when you can't get enough people to form a full tag then perhaps that's more a reflection on your leadership abilities than any malfunctioning game mechanic?

I wouldn't mind starting a new alliance again at some point but I wouldn't want to do so knowing that people are joining simply because the game wont let them play with their friends. If I started a new tag I'd play with the people I wanted to play with, and the people who wanted to play with me. Tag limit wouldn't stop me starting a new tag. Or at least it didn't in R26.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:44   #188
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by jbg
I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Or much of your previous post. Maybe a couple of more poor quality jokes will liven this thread up!
that was to membrivio. By the way, I'm reading several articles agreeing with what I said about relativity...

"The Reception in the U.S.

As a result, the early response to the theory of relativity in the U.S. before 1908 was to ignore it......... After 1908, scientists began to respond to Einstein. The majority ridiculed relativity theory as nonsense ...... The climax of these kinds of remarks came at the 1911 meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science when W. F. Magie, in his presidential address, called for a return to Newton ........ Later, as the theory became accepted, especially after the dramatic confirmation in 1919, physicists stressed that it had been empirically proved."


"Relativity in Great Britain

Up until 1919, many British scientists opposed relativity theory, largely because they believed in the existence of an ether. It was Sir Arthur Eddington, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge, who pushed British scientists to discuss Einstein’s theories. In 1918 ..."

"The French Response

At the very least, the reception of relativity in France can be described as “mixed”. Within the scientific community as a whole, the concepts of relativity made slow headway and initially encountered either indifference or hostility ........ Almost overnight Einstein became an international celebrity and Einstein’s fame was such that the opposition to his theories was considerably reduced. Throughout the 1920’s relativity theory was established in Britain."

"Canada:

... Between 1911 and 1916 there were a few discussions in the journal concerning relativity theory but no mention of Einstein by name until 1916. Over the next few years a number of hostile letters were published in the journal. ..."

And so forth. Just from http://www.arts.yorku.ca/huma/kateya.../Reception.doc - first majorly appropriate google result I found, that was seemingly researched as opposed to ... wikipedia.

Not that the article is right, but it certainly agrees 100% with everything I said on the matter its nice to know I'm not the only idiot out there!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:46   #189
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
So lets say kaiba is like CBA, and actually lacks the intelligence to debate on your level ... does that make his opinion wrong? Let me ask you ... honestly ... before you sat down and thought about this deeply, were you for or against a 30-50man alliance cap?
I can't tell you exactly what my thoughts were, since for me this goes back about 6-7 years. However, it stems from a conclusion we (me, LordN, some others) came to back during the middle years of PIA, which was that there simply wasn't enough leaders and officers around at that time to support the recent expansion of alliances wanting to compete for top ranks. As a result, the better lead Dragons steamrolled them.

Now, firstly I'd like to note that these alliances sprang up without the need for alliance size limits. Secondly, most of them collapsed quite soon after, because they weren't able to sustain themselves due to the lack or leadership.

They did not fail because they were outnumbered, we simply had the better leaders and the better players, and if they had created fewer alliances, they could have better given us a run for our money with more players and more competent leaders.

In effect, more alliances made it easier for the best alliance to win, and made it all quite boring for us at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Do you honestly think you have thought about everything impartially?
Well, obviously my viewpoint is affected by my experiences and what I know, so just as everyone I have a cognitive bias. However, I am very aware of this, and I do try to go out of my way to control for it, to try and gather as much information as possible from various different viewpoints before I make any direct statements.

In this particular case I even stated my bias early on in my first post. I said that for me, it's about what is good for new players, as I believe strongly (and always have) that this game needs to integrate new players for it to survive and flourish. My bias in this case doesn't lie with the best alliances, and I have a long history of promoting solutions for problems that many top players were abusing, amongst them newbie bashing. Mz or someone from old PIA forums can back me up on this one.

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Would you agree it is almost impossible to prove you wrong without actually testing it in practise?

I don't care much for mz's graphs either (long time since I actually saw them, skipped over that bit today) - I do remember thinking "interesting", followed by "data set is too small to actually legitimise the results". Of course, nothing can be done about that, its the only data available - but to use it as "proof" to "help win" an argument isn't really on, and would get laughed out of physics, hopefully economics too...
As for the testing, I believe that it's in fact impossible to prove anything through testing. That's kind of how "soft sciences" work, you can't really prove it as you do in physics, you can simply say that you have a theory and it fits the data. More data only makes it more likely to be true. Having a theory which fits all the data perfectly is essentially impossible in economics and other related fields.

However, as for the data we have on this issue, I believe it reasonably supports the conclusions that have been made, but is not conclusive. It doesn't however seem to support the opposing theories well at all. There is a large variance, but this seems to me to be more likely a result of other factors which are not controlled for. Mz did make an effort to explain some of the major discrepancies, and I believe he did a good job of it.

Now, it would be possible for the data to support our conclusions, or indeed as Gerbie2 argued, we might have gotten some of our causality mixed up. This seems unlikely to me, as the logic behind the causality seems solid and so does the conclusions. In fact the conclusions, at least in my case (and since I know my rants in the past have been read by many of those who now agree with me, I believe this is true for them as well), predates the data. This means the data fits the prediction, not the other way around.

Now usually if a conclusion is wrong it stems from being made after the fact. In such a case, people end up trying to fit their explanations to their conclusion, rather than creating a proper logical framework. This all becomes a bit hard to explain, but a good example is recounted in the book Freakonomics by Levitt. It concerns how statisticians made assumptions about the cause of the sudden drop of the crime rate during the 90's in the U.S.A. They basically fell for the proximity fallacy, in that they assumed whatever actions had been taken most recently caused the drop (in this case, being tough on crime). In reality, Levitt and Donohue later showed that these causes were out of sync with the change, and that the real cause was legalized abortion 10+ years earlier.

Legalized abortion and crime effect

So anyway, the data isn't perfect, but good logic supported by reasonable data, especially when the logic came before the data, to me makes a relatively strong case.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:49   #190
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
I tried to make a funny, Mr. Serious Science.
It's ok, I know you did, I just couldn't pass up the chance to call Kenny a muppet :P
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:52   #191
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
It's ok, I know you did, I just couldn't pass up the chance to call Kenny a muppet :P
As if you need presented with an opportunity...
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Unread 16 May 2010, 22:59   #192
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
So anyway, the data isn't perfect, but good logic supported by reasonable data, especially when the logic came before the data, to me makes a relatively strong case.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 23:05   #193
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Not that the article is right, but it certainly agrees 100% with everything I said on the matter its nice to know I'm not the only idiot out there!
It wasn't perfectly smooth, but Einstein did have important people backing him, especially in England. As said, very early on the problem was as much that people did not quite comprehend it. Those who did tended to come down in favor of Einstein. It seems rather unlikely that the theory would have been accepted across the board as soon as one experiment propped it up if in fact there had not already been a broad acknowledgement of its merits beforehand.

When writing history, you can always find the naysayers, and if that is someones interest, it's always rather easy to make out that there existed a huge controversy. Sort of like when Galileo pointed out that the sun was at the center of the galaxy, not the earth. The public account on this subject has become quite distorted, and it was less of an revelation than it was an affront to the Catholic Church. Heck, even the Church didn't really oppose it, they just opposed him saying it in a way which detracted from their power.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 23:08   #194
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Later, as the theory became accepted, especially after the dramatic confirmation in 1919, physicists stressed that it had been empirically proved."
Oh look it was being accepted before 1919.


Quote:
"Relativity in Great Britain

Up until 1919, many British scientists opposed relativity theory, largely because they believed in the existence of an ether. It was Sir Arthur Eddington, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge, who pushed British scientists to discuss Einstein’s theories. In 1918 ..."
Ah yes, the famous "many". Surely a clear indication that nobody believed him and he was ridiculed at the time.

Quote:
"The French Response

At the very least, the reception of relativity in France can be described as “mixed”. Within the scientific community as a whole, the concepts of relativity made slow headway and initially encountered either indifference or hostility ........ Almost overnight Einstein became an international celebrity and Einstein’s fame was such that the opposition to his theories was considerably reduced. Throughout the 1920’s relativity theory was established in Britain."
I like how the French response took place in Britain.

Quote:
"Canada:

... Between 1911 and 1916 there were a few discussions in the journal concerning relativity theory but no mention of Einstein by name until 1916. Over the next few years a number of hostile letters were published in the journal. ..."
I'm going to post the whole quote in its full context here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by That article you've quoted so hilariously selectively
In Canada, Einstein’s 1905 paper on special relativity received very little attention. But this is no surprise since Canada was a scientific backwater during the period of Einstein’s critical work. Canada’s astronomical community numbered about a dozen professionals and there was only one observatory of note, the Dominion Observatory in Ottawa. There was one department of astronomy in Canada at the University of Toronto that consisted of one professor. There was a Royal Astronomical Society of Canada with some hundreds of members, many amateurs, and a journal. Through the journal the progress of Einstein’s theory became known to astronomically-literate Canadians. Between 1911 and 1916 there were a few discussions in the journal concerning relativity theory but no mention of Einstein by name until 1916. Over the next few years a number of hostile letters were published in the journal.

Seriously, I know special and general relativity were initially coldly received in many places. However this is not an exception to the rule in terms of paradigmatic changes in physics over the centuries. Einstein was certainly not almost universally dismissed until 1919 as you claim. And posting a few pages from an introduction to relativity undergrad course proves about as much as me slapping my dick on my keyboard.

Reposting your original comment

Quote:
Einstein was totally ignored, and I dare say ridiculed about his hypothesis. I'll be amazed if he wasn't - as nice as the maths & hypothesis was, it was a little weird at the time.

Then was it 1919? or sometime, there was a solar eclipse - Einstein proven right, relativity replaces (or supersedes) the existing laws of physics.
I'd like for you, if you're going to continue this line to find someone that claims that Einstein was totally ignored, or ridiculed, prior to 1919. And then once the Eddington experiment happened (you can actually work out from the fact that it's not called the Einstein experiment that someone else found general relativity credible) relativity went from being ridiculed to supplementing (replacing is a bad word) Newtonian physics. Nothing about that is true. Special and general relativity initially got little time, for a variety of reasons, from most people. Got more as the years went on. Got a lot more after the Eddington experiment obviously but wasn't universally accepted until well after that.
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Unread 17 May 2010, 01:23   #195
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Re: Alliance player limit

where'd BGA's post go?
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Unread 17 May 2010, 01:31   #196
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Re: Alliance player limit

Apprime
Ascendancy
ASS
Conspiracy Theory
DLR
Euphoria
Evolution
Excessum
F-crew
Howling Rain
Newdawn
ODDR
Omen
Orbit
P3nguins
ROCK
Subh
VGN
Vision
xVx

This is my list of 20 alliances that i think can operate in the same round if tags are only allowed 50 people. In this imaginary world, having all those tags on 50 members will certainly change this game a lot, especially politically. I am convinced that each individual will be nursed and treated more as a community member rather then one of the masses.

So many posters here forget what really matters. You need the customers to like this game enough to stay for another round, and currently the game is all about the metagame (communities and irc)

I therefore suggest a user-friendly approach to the alliance limit.
- Tag limit of 50
- Announce it as soon as possible so alliances have a lot of time to prepare.
- Increase the tag limit with a certain size every round, for instance allowing 55 members the following round. Given there are 20 functional alliances, everyone like it enough to stay in their tag, and noone gets kicked out, 100 new spots will be open for new or returning players.

The reason i believe in this system is because Planetarion is a business, depending on how much each individual wants to keep paying to play. No business get new customers, or keep their old ones, unless they get something in return. In this case they will leave if they are bored or bullied out. In a business, the most important thing is to expect an increase in customers, or keep all of your current ones. Changes has to be made according to the current amount of players, and then adjusted as the game grows.

A final point though, if any large changes are done at all, plan to stick with the changes for atleast 3 rounds so the playerbase can adapt.
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Unread 17 May 2010, 01:34   #197
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Re: Alliance player limit

Wait. What? What are you suggesting and why? Not only is your data flawed (much of the command of various of those alliances are duplicates) but some of those are just not around.
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Unread 17 May 2010, 01:53   #198
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Wait. What? What are you suggesting and why? Not only is your data flawed (much of the command of various of those alliances are duplicates) but some of those are just not around.
My suggestion is crystal clear
Why i suggest it is because i believe it will lead to growth
I removed some alliances because they had the same command structure
The point was that those alliance COULD exist, i am fully aware of that some are currently not existing, they couldnt with 100 man limit.
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Unread 17 May 2010, 02:00   #199
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Re: Alliance player limit

As ellonweb pointed out, and mz too, you think that if you randomly kick 176 planets out of the tags we have at the moment, alliances will pop up magically?
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Unread 17 May 2010, 02:22   #200
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
As ellonweb pointed out, and mz too, you think that if you randomly kick 176 planets out of the tags we have at the moment, alliances will pop up magically?
The top 15 alliances in round 36 held approximately 600 members.

if every "top" alliance held 50 each, it would make room for 12. Just to make the math easier for you.
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