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Unread 15 May 2010, 09:06   #51
Kaiba
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Re: Alliance player limit

i think it just comes down to where you have played the game - alaliance wise - the top allies want to take themselves further away from the smaller allys and the smaller allys wanna catch up and make things fairer. It has become a bit of a moot point now cos no matter how much the smally allays complain and petition for smaller allys the bigger allys hold more sway with the pa team and will get what they want anyway.

In reference to the lemons post and what Sun_Tzu is posting about headhunting - This is a game that should be fair for all its not The Apprentice!!!
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:14   #52
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Re: Alliance player limit

Dear lord, it's like you people don't read anything at all. You ignore logic, you disregard arguments, you fail to back up your position with arguments, you reject the objective data. You're like a bunch of ostriches with their heads in the sand.

This is the single worst topic I've read in the last year.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:18   #53
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Re: Alliance player limit

Gerbie2; just...no.
Tiamat; have you even read the posts?
Kaiba; I'm posting about headhunting? Wow, could you misrepresent my point any more even if you tried?

Now would any of you care to try and logically disprove my post or Jesters earlier which was linked to this thread?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:21   #54
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Re: Alliance player limit

well no its actually quite a good topic that shows the difference of opinion throughout the community. The veiw of the big allies who want to keep themselves isolated from the lower allainces and the lower allies who want to get closer and even things up a little.

The main problem with the 100 man limit is that in a game of 1k players (roughly) it would mean only 10 full tagged allys then all the players are used up leading to boring gameplay between the same old faces with very little change in places and ranks. Whereas with 50 man allys you could have 20 fully tagged allys which would lead to bigger changes and higher chances of improving your ally rank every round
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:28   #55
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Re: Alliance player limit

Sun_Tzu everything you have is comparing the allainces to businesses and same with Jesters lemon market bullshit.. the fundemental point is that PA is a game and should be treated as one. It should be as fair as possible evrytime a new round starts for every player and alliance to acheive #1 regardless of wether they have the potential to do so or not. 100 man tags do not support this idea as they produce an elitist clump at the top of the game that over half the community cant touch no matter how hard they try.

It is possible for most allainces to recruit 50 ppl into there ranks but as we saw last round only 2 or 3 allies got anywhere near 100 ppl and they were the allainces that finished at the top
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:32   #56
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
History has shown that we need alliance limits to increase the amount of alliances competing for the top ranks and prevent the creation of ever larger blocks.
No, it hasn't. Blocks have been around since the dawn of Planetarion and have not become more prevalent with either the increase or decrease of tag limits. The only thing that's happened (in the last 20 rounds, not just in the last 5) is that blocks have become more fluid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Higher alliance limits will kill some of the smaller alliances
No, it won't. This is not backed up by the data. Have you read my earlier post about it?

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
while reducing limits allows more alliances to be created.
No, it doesn't. Having at least one good HC and about 40 potential members allows an alliance to be created. The conclusion "lower alliance limits lead to more alliances" is not backed up by the data, as I've said before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
I think that what killed the smaller alliances this round was not alliance sizes, but private galaxies. This led to politics where all the larger alliances avoided each other. The smaller alliances were unable to protect their members in private galaxies.
I've been saying this for a while now, people underestimated how hard playing in a private galaxy would be. Hopefully, they've learned their lesson.

This is also the reason why I advocated another round of random/private galaxies, to see if people would take different decisions based on experience and better information. If the same problem occurs, the system is fundamentally flawed and should be replaced by something else for round 38.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
There are no downsides to filling your basket with as many lemons as you can fit in it. These lemons are free. We wanted the people in the top galaxies and recruited them. We couldn't even find 100 lemons.
Precisely. But if the alliance limit were (say) 50, you would be able to find enough members, and thus be less inclined to take risks. This has been covered in both Tzu's and Jester's posts.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:39   #57
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Re: Alliance player limit

At its heart, this seems to come down to a misunderstanding about how alliances work.

In essence, those arguing for lower alliance sizes seem to believe that an alliance is formed spontaneously whenever a given amount of free players exist. According to this way of thinking, an alliance is nothing but a number of players together in a tag. However, this completely disregards leadership.

The real world equivalent would be to assume that any time a number of unemployed workers existed at any given place, a new company would be formed. Granted, this disregards the need for a business idea, however a business idea is needed for a company to succeed, not for it to form. For a company to form it is required that someone leads the formation, a person who is capable of convincing others to follow.

Now, further, even if we assumed that these new alliances were to be spontaneously created, or which is more likely, that some other alliances exist ready to take these players in, we are still making an assumption about what happens when the alliance size limit is lowered.

The assumption here is that the playerbase stays constant, and that these people are intent on playing the game because of the game, not because they are encouraged to do so by others. If however the decision whether to play or not is influenced by such motivating factors as the leadership of the alliance which a person would wish to play for, it is not a given that they will even consider playing if these leaders do not recruit them, or that they would wish to be transplanted into one of these smaller alliances if they could not fit into their first choice.

As I've stated before, I believe the intrinsic motivation for playing this game is not the game itself, but the community. As such, I do not believe (and the evidence tends to suggest something similar) that reducing the alliance size limit directly moves the same amount of players from the top alliances to the smaller alliances. In fact, my belief is that very few players will make this move, and those who do make it are either using the smaller alliance for their own gain, or have made a decision to return to playing at a more communal level, in which case they likely return to a previous alliance of theirs, and the move would have happened regardless of changes in the alliance size limit.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 10:40   #58
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Re: Alliance player limit

Here is the data I keep talking about, by the way:
Code:
Round Total_Alliances Total_Members Average_Members Alliance_Limit Total_Players Comments
   14              15          1050            70               99          2655
   15              16          1133            70.8             91          3043
   16              19          1122            59.1             83          4510 Free round
   17              16           958            59.9             79          3022
   18              14           856            61.1             75          2725
   19              12           778            64.8             79          2118
   20              14           840            60               70          2218
   21              13           823            63.3             70          2127
   22              15          1011            67.4             70          3475 Free round
   23              12           691            57.6             70          1689 New inactivity deletion mechanism
   24              12           750            62.5             70          1586
   25              13           747            57.5             60          1590
   26              12           683            56.9             75          1497
   27              14           943            67.4             75          2376 Free round
   28              10           614            61.4             75          1432
   29              11           731            66.5             75          1420
   30              12           830            69.2            100          1628 Supposedly the last round of PA
   31              12           755            62.9             90          1696
   32              12           733            61.1             70          1551
   33              12           683            56.9             70          1447
   34              12           680            56.7             70          1307
   35              11           632            57.5             70          1247
   36              10           664            66.4            100          1295
   37                                                          100
Total_alliances is the number of alliances who ended that round with 40 or more players.
Total_members is the total number of players in alliances in the alliances that ended with 40 or more players.
Average_members is Total_members divided by Total_alliances
Alliance_limit is the upper limit of what alliances can recruit to. "Counted members" is ignored here.
Total_players is the total number of players who had a planet at the last tick of the round, outside of cluster 200.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 15 May 2010 at 11:02.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 11:11   #59
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Sun_Tzu everything you have is comparing the allainces to businesses and same with Jesters lemon market bullshit.. the fundemental point is that PA is a game and should be treated as one. It should be as fair as possible evrytime a new round starts for every player and alliance to acheive #1 regardless of wether they have the potential to do so or not. 100 man tags do not support this idea as they produce an elitist clump at the top of the game that over half the community cant touch no matter how hard they try.

It is possible for most allainces to recruit 50 ppl into there ranks but as we saw last round only 2 or 3 allies got anywhere near 100 ppl and they were the allainces that finished at the top
Firstly, we use economics arguments because economics deals with people who use resources to try and accomplish goals. Most arguments of economics can be transplanted into games, and indeed much of the vocabulary of gaming is inherited from economics. Concepts such as how long it will take for a roidcap to pay itself back are directly derived from how long it takes for a investment to produce a return for the investor.

Further, economics is in fact a study of real human behaviour. As such it studies topics such as leadership or information flow, which are generally applicable concepts. When Jester brought up the Lemon Market, he referred to it as a framework for understanding situations of information asymmetry. Indeed, all interaction has elements of asymmetry, as no two people have the exact same knowledge. Their differing knowledge and their perceptions of these differences in knowledge influence their actions, and frameworks such as the Lemon Market help us understand how it does this.

You also present an argument that at the start of each round, each alliance should have the same ability to compete. You have chosen one parameter which you believe to represent this equal starting point, however it should be quite obvious that such a simplified view of things will not accurately represent reality. Indeed by focusing on alliance size, more relative power is given to those who have the higher average quality of players. If indeed the alliance size was not controlled for, smaller elite alliances would have to compete on a more equal footing with larger less elite alliances.

Wishing dearly that at the start of each round we would all be tabula rasa does not make it so. It is then meaningless to cling to alliance size as the magic bullet that would allow smaller alliances to compete for victory. In truth, victory is decided through leadership and execution, not the size of a tag.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 11:16   #60
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Re: Alliance player limit

i do actually agree or atleast see where ppl like you and Mz are coming from but i also beleive that the defpool of a 100 man tag vs smaller allies makes the big allainces unhittable - with 50 man tags you take away that unfairness making ppls chances of landing an atatck greater which in turn could even things up
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Unread 15 May 2010, 11:38   #61
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
i do actually agree or atleast see where ppl like you and Mz are coming from but i also beleive that the defpool of a 100 man tag vs smaller allies makes the big allainces unhittable - with 50 man tags you take away that unfairness making ppls chances of landing an atatck greater which in turn could even things up
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Unread 15 May 2010, 11:41   #62
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Re: Alliance player limit

**** economics, its the individual player who signs up to have a good time that matters. Being tossed into a 100man unorganized alliance just makes them a planet in the masses, with little sense of being anything else then a muppet.
I blame the HCs in the wannabe first tier alliances, they cant handle the masses but they recruit just about anything, and they dont care about their members. Thats not HCing, its called sitting on the top for a fancy title that means nothing in the modern PA.
With a 50man limit, those alliances would have no choice but to care for their 50 members, or they would simply die. If they cant care for their members, then perhaps they should die.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 12:05   #63
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
i do actually agree or atleast see where ppl like you and Mz are coming from but i also beleive that the defpool of a 100 man tag vs smaller allies makes the big allainces unhittable - with 50 man tags you take away that unfairness making ppls chances of landing an atatck greater which in turn could even things up
This assumption requires several other things to be true. The quality of the players in both tags needs to be more or less consistent, and each player in the larger tag needs to add to the greater value. Both alliances need to have equally skilled dc's. But most importantly, there is an assumption that the incomings an alliance with 100 members faces will be equal to that which a 50 member alliance faces.

Now, due to random incomings, having twice as many planets naturally exposes you to about twice the amount of incomings over time, disregarding explicit targeting. Further when you are being targeted, twice the amount of planets presents twice the amount of targets, again there is an increased chance of more incomings since you are likely taking up more space in any given galaxy etc. This has little bearing on specific planet targeting of course, yet it should be clear that the assumption that twice the planets equals twice the fleets against the same incomings is unlikely to be true.

I also stated that there needed to be an assumption that each additional member would increase the value over the smaller alliance. This is an important distinction, because simply having the same amount of value spread over twice the players means you need to get a hold of twice the players to cover the same incomings, whilst gaining you no advantage in staving off those incomings. However, even if we assume that there is a value advantage, there is an increasing "cost" to mobilize it, so long as the value is not twice that of the smaller alliance. If indeed the value is twice that of the smaller alliance, then you are correct, the larger alliance is clearly the harder one to hit. However, if the larger alliance is only 1,5 times the value of the smaller alliance, I would venture that the smaller alliance is actually harder to hit.

Take as an example Vision last round. With a small BG within ND, we were able to target and successfully roid multiple big vision planets. Similarly, Apprime were quite capable of taking on ND, even though ND had both greater value and more players. Apprime simply had an easier time to getting full utilization out of their value, and as such could both out-defend and out-attack ND.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 12:10   #64
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
**** economics, its the individual player who signs up to have a good time that matters. Being tossed into a 100man unorganized alliance just makes them a planet in the masses, with little sense of being anything else then a muppet.
I blame the HCs in the wannabe first tier alliances, they cant handle the masses but they recruit just about anything, and they dont care about their members. Thats not HCing, its called sitting on the top for a fancy title that means nothing in the modern PA.
With a 50man limit, those alliances would have no choice but to care for their 50 members, or they would simply die. If they cant care for their members, then perhaps they should die.
If indeed said alliances do not take care of their players, they are likely to lose said players over time, and even if they would retain those players, they would be unlikely to be able to utilize them, thus ensuring their downfall.

An alliance which is likely to fail will fail regardless the alliance size limit.

Oh, and economics is all about the individual having fun. If your input (effort) does not result in sufficient output (fun), then the individual will regard the enterprise as unrewarding and not take part in it longer. Therefor the goal of individual enjoyment is very much at the heart of both mine and Jesters arguments.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 12:48   #65
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Dear lord, it's like you people don't read anything at all. You ignore logic, you disregard arguments, you fail to back up your position with arguments, you reject the objective data. You're like a bunch of ostriches with their heads in the sand.

This is the single worst topic I've read in the last year.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 14:29   #66
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
If indeed said alliances do not take care of their players, they are likely to lose said players over time, and even if they would retain those players, they would be unlikely to be able to utilize them, thus ensuring their downfall.

An alliance which is likely to fail will fail regardless the alliance size limit.

Oh, and economics is all about the individual having fun. If your input (effort) does not result in sufficient output (fun), then the individual will regard the enterprise as unrewarding and not take part in it longer. Therefor the goal of individual enjoyment is very much at the heart of both mine and Jesters arguments.
To play this game you need to enjoy it, but how can you enjoy the game having 5-8 waves with only 300 roids on your planet being gangbanged by an alliance of 100 members knowing that you can't defend against it.

Reducing the tag limit will let quality come out on top.

Even things out or just let the game die like it has been doing for these past 10 rounds.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 14:44   #67
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Re: Alliance player limit

I havent read the last 3 or 4 essay responses from Sun_Tzu, because everything he has said in this thread has been right... yet redundant, since he has to keep explaining the same thing to some of you thick ****s.

I think it's being overlooked how difficult it is to operate an alliance, let alone start one.

It requires tools: a website, a bot, a sms client, a server to run it all on, + a whole crapload of stuff. These aren't free, unless you either have the skills to make them, or are lucky enough to have a friend willing to do it for free. (Unless of course you steal the code or use some TERRIBLE stock code)

It requires a core group of friends: Lets face it, no one is going to join your alliance if its just you sitting in a channel with P running interviews. People hop into #newdawn or #vision and see a community. Perrty neat!

This is all OBVIOUS obvious stuff, and this is ignoring what Sun_Tzu and others have repeated in regards to leadership and such.


The sole point of having a higher limit is to hope for new members to join the game. ND was more willing than EVER to bring in brand new faces last round, whether or not it was their first time logging into IRC. We were able to take that risk.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 14:46   #68
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Donar View Post
To play this game you need to enjoy it, but how can you enjoy the game having 5-8 waves with only 300 roids on your planet being gangbanged by an alliance of 100 members knowing that you can't defend against it.

Reducing the tag limit will let quality come out on top.

Even things out or just let the game die like it has been doing for these past 10 rounds.
That's a very strange assumption, that bashing small players has anything to do with alliance size.

I also very much doubt you can present an example where one alliance sent 5-8 waves on a small target, nor do I see how the size of the alliance factors into this equation. The implication is that because of the number of players in the tag, the impact of the amount of waves and value of fleets sent at the a player increases. Plainly, this is not true.

If however you intend to make the argument that larger alliances are more likely to send more waves and value to attack smaller planets, then I would like to see how you justify this assumption. Clearly, this is a waste of fleets, and not something the implicitly feared top alliances tend to engage in, regardless of the size of their tag.

If your argument in fact was that larger alliances have fewer targets available to them, then this argument is somewhat true, assuming no political actions are taken throughout the round, in which case NAP's and co-operation may reduce the number of targets for a smaller alliance below that of a bigger one. And besides, doubling alliance size from say 50 to 100 in a 1k player universe only reduces the available targets for the alliance by about 5%, hardly enough to force them to double the amount of waves on the very worst targets.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 14:53   #69
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Donar View Post
To play this game you need to enjoy it, but how can you enjoy the game having 5-8 waves with only 300 roids on your planet being gangbanged by an alliance of 100 members knowing that you can't defend against it.A

Reducing the tag limit will let quality come out on top.B

Even things out or just let the game die like it has been doing for these past 10 rounds.C
I have seperated your post in 3 parts, A, B and C.

A: Can you explain to me why a 100 member alliance would 5 to 8 wave a planet on 300 roids? I know planets with 300 roids get those waves, but this usually occurs when they have a shit fleet, worthless galaxy, clueless alliance or a combination of the aforementioned. This attracts incoming and there is nothing orchestrated about. There is no logic to spend 8 waves on a 300 roid planet. Therefore, I consider this to be a non-argument, supporting exactly nothing.

B: Can you please explain this? If anything, it would suggest that elite groups will form and that 'smaller' alliances will die harder because of the inate gap in quality between a 'recruiting' alliance and a 'hardcore' alliance. You will die like flies, because I think homogene groups will form according to quality and playing style. This idea is supported by this article.. Because of this I refute this as an argument (you did not only not back it up, at the moment you have to counter my argument too)

C: The number of players has been roughly the same the last 10-15 rounds (mz's data backs this up). Knowing the interactions in the community it suggests that there is a larger pool of players that occasionally play the round and some who just sign up every round. The community itself is a bit bigger then the number of players per round. You can refute this statement by going to the PA history page and datamining all the nicks of the players that played the previous 10 to 15 rounds and show this hypothesis wrong.

I think I have just shown your post is utter nonsense and you should actually read stuff people post on here or shut your mouth for the sake of a healthy discussion.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:01   #70
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
**** economics, its the individual player who signs up to have a good time that matters. Being tossed into a 100man unorganized alliance just makes them a planet in the masses, with little sense of being anything else then a muppet.
I blame the HCs in the wannabe first tier alliances, they cant handle the masses but they recruit just about anything, and they dont care about their members. Thats not HCing, its called sitting on the top for a fancy title that means nothing in the modern PA.
With a 50man limit, those alliances would have no choice but to care for their 50 members, or they would simply die. If they cant care for their members, then perhaps they should die.

Although the quality of a 100 man tag is low at the bottom of the ladder, I do think that these people have a statistically better chance of forming a lasting community because some will have quality and can enhance the experience for eachother. While they can also attract limitless other players than when you have say a 50 or even smaller tag. Although bad alliances, players and so forth should not be rewarded, you are not really suggseting an alternative here.

Having no choice but to care is a fallacy. They can chose not to care, die and leave the game. This game is what it is, a game. And we should have mechanics in place that lock people into the game and make it accessible, not push people away.

I really do not know if you are making a point for high/no limits or smaller limits. While I say this I also think you should disconnect the idea of 'counted score' versus alliance limit. The discussion is here about the tag limit.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:04   #71
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Re: Alliance player limit

Size of an alliance does matter.

lets say 2nd tier alliance (40 members) wants to hit a private gal of a 1st tier alliance (full tag). How many fleets do you expect to land when they have more then twice the fleets available for def.
and lets see if it happened the other way around? only half the fleets available for def against twice the attack fleets.

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It requires tools: a website, a bot, a sms client, a server to run it all on, + a whole crapload of stuff. These aren't free, unless you either have the skills to make them, or are lucky enough to have a friend willing to do it for free. (Unless of course you steal the code or use some TERRIBLE stock code)
i agree with bot and sms client, all other things are redundant.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:07   #72
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
**** economics, its the individual player who signs up to have a good time that matters. Being tossed into a 100man unorganized alliance just makes them a planet in the masses, with little sense of being anything else then a muppet.
I blame the HCs in the wannabe first tier alliances, they cant handle the masses but they recruit just about anything, and they dont care about their members. Thats not HCing, its called sitting on the top for a fancy title that means nothing in the modern PA.
With a 50man limit, those alliances would have no choice but to care for their 50 members, or they would simply die. If they cant care for their members, then perhaps they should die.
So at a 100 member limit... App only cares about.. what 6 of their members? Set it at 50... and you'll only be escorting/defending 2 or 3?

I don't get your point, as it is a terrible one. Sorry, other alliances DON'T "wannabe" like yours. We have applicants leaving your alliance to come to ours to find a place that DOES care. Whats up with that?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:12   #73
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Size of an alliance does matter.

lets say 2nd tier alliance (40 members) wants to hit a private gal of a 1st tier alliance (full tag). How many fleets do you expect to land when they have more then twice the fleets available for def.
and lets see if it happened the other way around? only half the fleets available for def against twice the attack fleets.
Ofcourse it matters, but can you explain to me why this should be possible? Why should a small group of 2nd tier players be able to succesfully hit a private galaxy of a large group of 1st tier players?
I understand that it is pretty awesome for the first group, but the reward for the second group is just silly. Their activity and better 'skills' are not rewarded in any way.
What is wrong with the second situation? I know that the second group loses out in that situation, but there is absolutely nothing to stop them from organizing themselves better or increasing their defpool. In game terms I also see nothing wrong with 'small, bad quality group loses against big, high quality group'.

You are implicating, proof me wrong, that a larger tag makes for more efficient value. I beg to differ. Good organized groups prefer to be a bit smaller to organize their value more efficient and not waste it on 'dead weight'. The bigger your tag will be, the more inefficient its value. The key point is to organize your value in an efficient way.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:17   #74
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Re: Alliance player limit

Yes but an alliance with 100 members will most likely have more then twice the inc so thus the extra fleets used in def already

Quote:
Size of an alliance does matter.

lets say 2nd tier alliance (40 members) wants to hit a private gal of a 1st tier alliance (full tag). How many fleets do you expect to land when they have more then twice the fleets available for def.
and lets see if it happened the other way around? only half the fleets available for def against twice the attack fleets.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:37   #75
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Size of an alliance does matter.

lets say 2nd tier alliance (40 members) wants to hit a private gal of a 1st tier alliance (full tag). How many fleets do you expect to land when they have more then twice the fleets available for def.
and lets see if it happened the other way around? only half the fleets available for def against twice the attack fleets.
You make the assumption that these two alliances would be throwing everything they have against each other and operating in a complete vacuum. These do not, yet again, seem like reasonable assumptions to me.

And if such an situation would arise, the game has in place means for the 2nd tier alliance to seek help by allying themselves with another alliance. This is called politics, and is generally considered a necessary tool for playing well as an alliance.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:38   #76
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Re: Alliance player limit

Well it does matter cause we all are supposed to start on a level playing field.

but when the full tag alliance can send out double the attack fleets to the 2nd tier alliance, that level playing field is blown away after the first week.

Oh well, we'll just see what happens i suppose, doubt anyone in PA team feels like listening to what we (2nd tier alliances) have to say.
pretty much getting ignored by them.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:48   #77
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Well it does matter cause we all are supposed to start on a level playing field.
The playing field is leveled you idiot. All rules apply to everyone in an equal fashion. I really do not see what you are 'argueing', if that is what you would want to call it.
You have failed to address issues raised by us. Failed to back up your statements by arguments and/or data. Basically you have failed to present your point.

It very much like you are holding your fingers in your ear while running around screaming 'LOWER TAG LIMITS LOWER TAG LIMITS LALALALALA'.
This does and should not convince anybody.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 15:58   #78
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Well it does matter cause we all are supposed to start on a level playing field.
Where does it say that this level playing field is supposed to extent beyond each planet having the same resources at the start and each player and alliance being bound by the rules of the game?

If indeed the requirement would be to level the playing field, then any experience what so ever would be against this sentiment. In fact, being in an alliance gives you an unfair advantage over a new player who signs up for the very first time.

Who's to say when the field is level? What measurements are to be used to determine this? Who benefits from this? And why should those for whom the solution is not tailored be made to suffer?

Why should your alliance, with your style of play, be nurtured above all others?

Would not the best option, from a competitive standpoint, be to allow as great a selection of tools and capabilities to be used in order for alliances and players to try and gain an advantage, so that the alliance which wins the game is the one which has played the best overall round?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 16:35   #79
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
A: Can you explain to me why a 100 member alliance would 5 to 8 wave a planet on 300 roids? I know planets with 300 roids get those waves, but this usually occurs when they have a shit fleet, worthless galaxy, clueless alliance or a combination of the aforementioned. This attracts incoming and there is nothing orchestrated about. There is no logic to spend 8 waves on a 300 roid planet. Therefore, I consider this to be a non-argument, supporting exactly nothing.
You forgot about double or triple booking.

P.S. I'm going to shoot the next person to use the word "fair".
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Unread 15 May 2010, 16:39   #80
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Re: Alliance player limit

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You forgot about double or triple booking.
Would not larger alliances decrease the frequency of double/triple booking, if indeed as these fine gentlemen here like to claim, the number of alliances would subsequently diminish?

Fair day today, is it not, Mzyxptlk old chap?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 16:45   #81
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Re: Alliance player limit

Fewer alliances equals less chance of double booking, yes.

I've seen better, before the War.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 16:57   #82
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Fewer alliances equals less chance of double booking, yes.
Then, indeed if said problem is a true issue for these here fine gentlemen, surely they should be advocating the abolishment of any and all limitations, on the size of alliances? It is, after all, in their interests as they have portrayed them.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 18:49   #83
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Re: Alliance player limit

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The playing field is leveled you idiot. All rules apply to everyone in an equal fashion. I really do not see what you are 'argueing', if that is what you would want to call it.
You have failed to address issues raised by us. Failed to back up your statements by arguments and/or data. Basically you have failed to present your point.

It very much like you are holding your fingers in your ear while running around screaming 'LOWER TAG LIMITS LOWER TAG LIMITS LALALALALA'.
This does and should not convince anybody.
i've stated enough points, in this thread, but you have to be willing to see them.
But hey looks like PA team will give you what you want, we'll see if the game improves or not.
doubt your data will help much.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 19:05   #84
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Re: Alliance player limit

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i've stated enough points, in this thread, but you have to be willing to see them.
But hey looks like PA team will give you what you want, we'll see if the game improves or not.
doubt your data will help much.
Can you please state your non-refuted points? Maybe even some backed up with data and logic?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 19:45   #85
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Re: Alliance player limit

Well let me put it in ascendancy forum terms i know you'll get.

YOU ARE NOT GETTING OUR POINT (and im not the type like Sun tzu to keep repeating myself)

there i used caps, this will surely make me look cool.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 20:08   #86
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Re: Alliance player limit

The only things you've said so far are "people are leaving our alliances in search of better ones", "you don't understand" and "I don't want to explain this". I am not impressed.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 22:48   #87
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Re: Alliance player limit

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A load of crap
Did you actually bother to read the post you quoted? Or any of the others previous? It completely destroys your argument.



You bunch of morons continue to astound me. Time and time again, posts are made with clear logic, backed up with evidence and data, forming objectively correct conclusions. But it doesn't match your subjective opinion so you just completely disregard it, failing to even start to explain your opinions, let alone back them up.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 23:55   #88
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Re: Alliance player limit

None of you provided data from how much a said group like the game, how much they want to stay?, what do they feel about alliance limits?, how does it feel to be the new guy in the game, looking for an alliance?, how does it feel like after one round? After all, thats the only relevant data when it comes to treating every paid account as a customer.
Call it a poll, though a poll on these forums does not represent the playerbase. It will certainly vote in favor of the only alliance in modern PA who has successfully had over 120 players.

What i am trying to say here. Just face it, these forums are biased, and none of you are actually wrong, still some of you get told you are wrong. Funny shit. This discussion can go on forever, so make a change that lasts for 3 rounds minimum so the alliances can adapt. Whether its unlimited or 40 i dont really care, though my subjective opinion is 50.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 00:40   #89
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Re: Alliance player limit

this discussion gets funnier with each sip of my coconut rum
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Unread 16 May 2010, 01:01   #90
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Read this and try to debate that using logical arguements.

Stop posting anything else. This post goes out to everyone. Stop posting. Read the aforementioned.
i started from the beginning, got to this post and wondered why a 3 year old post is even relevant.

Are you implying that PA is the same as it was three years ago? the player base is? It would be nice if you elaborated on the opinions expressed in the post and stated how they are relevant to current affairs tbh.

[still reading the rest btw, did skim through and noticed there was no answer to what i was looking for so yeah] :P
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Unread 16 May 2010, 01:11   #91
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
None of you provided data from how much a said group like the game, how much they want to stay?, what do they feel about alliance limits?, how does it feel to be the new guy in the game, looking for an alliance?, how does it feel like after one round? After all, thats the only relevant data when it comes to treating every paid account as a customer.
Call it a poll, though a poll on these forums does not represent the playerbase. It will certainly vote in favor of the only alliance in modern PA who has successfully had over 120 players.

What i am trying to say here. Just face it, these forums are biased, and none of you are actually wrong, still some of you get told you are wrong. Funny shit. This discussion can go on forever, so make a change that lasts for 3 rounds minimum so the alliances can adapt. Whether its unlimited or 40 i dont really care, though my subjective opinion is 50.
surely the forums should be integrated into the game itself or at least the polls should?
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Unread 16 May 2010, 01:35   #92
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
i started from the beginning, got to this post and wondered why a 3 year old post is even relevant.

Are you implying that PA is the same as it was three years ago? the player base is? It would be nice if you elaborated on the opinions expressed in the post and stated how they are relevant to current affairs tbh.

[still reading the rest btw, did skim through and noticed there was no answer to what i was looking for so yeah] :P
Jesters post is still relevant. Information asymmetry will always be relevant. And no, the playerbase has not changed significantly in that period.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 02:36   #93
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Re: Alliance player limit

I'm not really in the mood for interjecting something that by itself is useful, as most of my opinions have already been stated.

I'll just encourage people to bring actual arguments to the table instead. They're good for two reasons; they help you explore the problem(s) you're trying to fix, and they may actually be convincing.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 09:14   #94
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Re: Alliance player limit

There's no arguing forever, with specialists pilling up tons of BS and blablabla to "drown the fish" as we say in France.
Try a 50 alliance limit for a round, and then let discuss how it was for everybody... not only the top 3 alliances expressing themselves here.
Or are the big ones too scared ?
"oh no i can't play without my 99 foreverfriends..."
"do you mean I could be under attack and lose a roid next round ?"
"what ? I won't be able to join my usual bashing party on those small/stupid alliances/gals/planets ?"
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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:12   #95
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
There's no arguing forever, when one side has arguments and the other does not
Fixed that for you.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:21   #96
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Fixed that for you.
MZ every is just opinion cos we havent had a 50 man tag round ofc you and your cronies have data to say why you think 100 man or no limit is better but there is no data for us to show you that 50 man is better cos it seems that the the bigger players in this game are hellbent on stopping it ever happening. Which leads nicely to Mikhail point of are u scared??

Lets just try it for a round or 2 and then we will have the answer conclusively - like we are doing currently with priv gals
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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:25   #97
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
MZ every is just opinion cos we havent had a 50 man tag round ofc
Which is why we use logic to extrapolate from the rounds with a tag limit of 60, backed up by arguments and reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
you and your cronies have data to say why you think 100 man or no limit is better but there is no data for us to show you that 50 man is better
You have data, you just can't use it because it doesn't corroborate your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
cos it seems that the the bigger players in this game are hellbent on stopping it ever happening. Which leads nicely to Mikhail point of are u scared??
Pointless ad hominem. In any case, my alliance is not the one that'll get hurt by a low tag limit, plus I'd rather play in a small elite alliances than recruit every player and their dog.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:29   #98
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Re: Alliance player limit

but 60 isnt 50- especially 50 with 50 counting meaning everyone counts towards your score. Wheres the harm in trying it?? Plus as im sure you'll agree when it was 60 the best allainces were at the top and everyone was in order of ability roughly whereas with 100 you can just out recruit for the win
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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:32   #99
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Re: Alliance player limit

Do you know what extrapolating is?
Quote:
1. (transitive) To infer by extending known information.
2. (transitive, mathematics) To estimate the value of a variable outside a known range from values within that range by assuming that the estimated value follows logically from the known ones
Do you have a good reason to believe a tag limit of 50 will work, that does not also apply to a tag limit of 60?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:36   #100
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Re: Alliance player limit

the keyword there would be 'assuming' i guess. Which means your making an assumption based on data you have. Which is fine but still isnt conclusively reason not to try.. everything else in this game is tried out and tested properly from priv gals and 100 man tags to single targetting so why not 50 man tags. If it had enough support from players with the game regardless of what the top 5 allys want. If it had over 50% approval then we should try it yes? like everything else?
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