Planetarion Forums

Nadval · 4 Jan 2005, 13:01

On course for Iraq's first REALLY democratic elections then...

What I'm amazed about is that Blair and Bush etc still maintain invading Iraq was the right thing to do.

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 13:08

That's so 2004

I've always maintained you can't bring Democracy to a country like Iraq.
It will simply split into smaller countries like it was before.

Mek · 4 Jan 2005, 13:09

*sigh*

you try to help and they shove it back in your face

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mek

*sigh*

you try to help and they shove it back in your face

If by try to help you mean invade whilst killing lots of civilians, you'd be right.

JammyJim · 4 Jan 2005, 13:15

i dont get why they dont drive around in armoured cars.....

and i dont mean poxy ones i mean proper range rover armoured stuff. ones which can withstand nuclear blasts upto 3inches away type thing.

Nadval · 4 Jan 2005, 13:15

Not to mention that most of the attacks aren't carried out by Iraqis

Nadval · 4 Jan 2005, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

i dont get why they dont drive around in armoured cars.....

and i dont mean poxy ones i mean proper range rover armoured stuff. ones which can withstand nuclear blasts upto 3inches away type thing.

Both Britain AND America have cut military spending since the Iraq war - you think they can afford that for all government officials? Well yes they can, but they're not likely to get them, the loss of life costs them less money.

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadval

Not to mention that most of the attacks aren't carried out by Iraqis

Its all those evul terrorists.
They could strike anywhere anytime.
and they could be anyone.
even you...

Let me see your ID card.

JammyJim · 4 Jan 2005, 13:18

sorry but youd think that giving 'top' government officials decent cars would be worth it tbh.

i wouldnt be at all surprised if a 'deal' couldnt be cut where range rover supply armoured cars free of charge but in return get full access to the marketplace with no government restrictions.

THATS WHAT ID DO!

Nadval · 4 Jan 2005, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

sorry but youd think that giving 'top' government officials decent cars would be worth it tbh.

i wouldnt be at all surprised if a 'deal' couldnt be cut where range rover supply armoured cars free of charge but in return get full access to the marketplace with no government restrictions.

THATS WHAT ID DO!

What you're forgetting is that they dont' actualy care if Iraq is a democracy or not, or atleast not on any grounds other than that of PR. They have the oil, they have the "war on terror"... They're set for the next 20 years.

Stew · 4 Jan 2005, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadval

What you're forgetting is that they dont' actualy care if Iraq is a democracy or not, or atleast not on any grounds other than that of PR. They have the oil, they have the "war on terror"... They're set for the next 20 years.

Bloody cynics

Boogster · 4 Jan 2005, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadval

What you're forgetting is that they dont' actualy care if Iraq is a democracy or not, or atleast not on any grounds other than that of PR. They have the oil, they have the "war on terror"... They're set for the next 20 years.

I don't believe you.

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster

I don't believe you.

Because God is on their side. Am I Rite?

Boogster · 4 Jan 2005, 13:51

No. You Are Rong.

JonnyBGood · 4 Jan 2005, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

That's so 2004

I've always maintained you can't bring Democracy to a country like Iraq.
It will simply split into smaller countries like it was before.

Before what? Islam?

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Before what? Islam?

Before we made Iraq. It hasn't always been that way you know!

JonnyBGood · 4 Jan 2005, 17:30

I'm not some kind of ****ing clueless drooling spastic. My point was that Iraq has been part of the Ottoman empire since the sixteenth century and it doesn't have to fall apart at the first sign of democracy.

Phang · 4 Jan 2005, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not some kind of ****ing clueless drooling spastic. My point was that Iraq has been part of the Ottoman empire since the sixteenth century and it doesn't have to fall apart at the first sign of democracy.

no, but it will the second you remove an iron first from atop it. whether the ottoman empire, the british empire, the ba'athists or the americans, iraq's nearly always been controlled firmly. now that the americans are trying to be peaceable and withdrawing, the democratic government, sham or no, is being attacked ruthlessly.

Kurashima · 4 Jan 2005, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not some kind of ****ing clueless drooling spastic. At least not until i finish my 17th pint of Guinness.

Fixed for Great Justice and Accuracy!

JonnyBGood · 4 Jan 2005, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

no, but it will the second you remove an iron first from atop it. whether the ottoman empire, the british empire, the ba'athists or the americans, iraq's nearly always been controlled firmly. now that the americans are trying to be peaceable and withdrawing, the democratic government, sham or no, is being attacked ruthlessly.

Many countries have had problems with their transition to democracy. The general idea is to encourage people to be more like us westerners (as we're great) and respect each other despite their differences. It's pretty difficult to get started on the old road towards being a great society if you've got some genocidal totalitarian nutcase in charge killing people who don't like his policies on middle class taxation. Anyways even if they choose greater devolution it's hardly the end of the world. Saying "bringing democracy to Iraq" will be a difficult task is stating the truth, saying you can't bring democracy to Iraq is just silly. They're not sub-human savages genetically incapable of forming a democratic government.

PS I only drool over pictures of your mother kura.

Phang · 4 Jan 2005, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Many countries have had problems with their transition to democracy. The general idea is to encourage people to be more like us westerners (as we're great) and respect each other despite their differences. It's pretty difficult to get started on the old road towards being a great society if you've got some genocidal totalitarian nutcase in charge killing people who don't like his policies on middle class taxation. Anyways even if they choose greater devolution it's hardly the end of the world. Saying "bringing democracy to Iraq" will be a difficult task is stating the truth, saying you can't bring democracy to Iraq is just silly. They're not sub-human savages genetically incapable of forming a democratic government.

PS I only drool over pictures of your mother kura.

i phrased my original point badly. what i meant was that the only thing stopping iraq splitting into its component parts has been dictatorial rule. Without it, civil unrest is going to continue until either the country is divided up or massive massive bombs get dropped on the entire region

JonnyBGood · 4 Jan 2005, 21:01

Let each area vote on whether or not they want to become their own country or join up with some of their equally cool neighbours then. No reason to say you can't bring democracy to Iraq though. Perhaps after the elections support for the terrorists will die out (mostly) if the "normal" people who are currently supporting them feel that someone in power understands their views and really works on their behalf. To state the glaringly obvious most situations in life start out shit, it's only through putting in effort that they improve.

Anyhow I'm off to the pub now (what a surprise

) so cowabunga dudes!

Ste · 4 Jan 2005, 21:05

i'm sure Turkey and Iran would love Kurdistan to break away.

In fact didn't Turkey threaten to invade if they did?

JonnyBGood · 4 Jan 2005, 21:15

People threaten lots of things. Invading one of the most heavily western-backed countries in history is probably not one of the threats that will be followed through on.

Yahwe · 5 Jan 2005, 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

People threaten lots of things. Invading one of the most heavily western-backed countries in history is probably not one of the threats that will be followed through on.

he didn't mean kurdistan even though that's what he wrote.

he meant the kurdish held territories in northern iraq. they're to the east of turkey.
kurdistan is not backed by the uk, but china, russia and the us want it safe to preserve pipelines. so that's pretty heavy backing.

the little kurds in northern iraq aren't backed by anyone, but nevertheless we all say "wasn't it a terrible thing that saddam gassed them". that is, until we meet one.

Phang · 5 Jan 2005, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

he didn't mean kurdistan even though that's what he wrote.

he meant the kurdish held territories in northern iraq. they're to the east of turkey.
kurdistan is not backed by the uk, but china, russia and the us want it safe to preserve pipelines. so that's pretty heavy backing.

the little kurds in northern iraq aren't backed by anyone, but nevertheless we all say "wasn't it a terrible thing that saddam gassed them". that is, until we meet one.

what in the eighty-six menstruating christs are you talking about? do you even know?

Veil05 · 5 Jan 2005, 07:26

Off topic:
4 Jan 2005, 18:36 #18
Phang
UEFA Cup 05-06

Hi, i notice u have a picture of a Liverpool player as your avater. surely liverpool are in the champions league this year? also, Middlesbrough will win tbfh.

Phang · 5 Jan 2005, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veil05

Off topic:
4 Jan 2005, 18:36 #18
Phang
UEFA Cup 05-06

Hi, i notice u have a picture of a Liverpool player as your avater. surely liverpool are in the champions league this year? also, Middlesbrough will win tbfh.

you will take that back and you will crawl into whatever hole you came from.

Nadval · 6 Jan 2005, 04:34

It's late so can't be bothered finding the quotes.

Iraq is simply too divided already between various religous groups. It contains too many extremists for democracy to be effective. Imagine putting half the Middle Eastern Muslims in America, equal to the amount of fundamentalist christians over there (i.e. a lot). Then imagine getting the same amount of Jews from Israel and putting them there aswell. Do you really expect to maintain a functioning democracy (let's pretend it's a functioning democracy at the moment) and avoid conflict and civil war? These factions in Iraq hate eachother and the only thing to keep them all together is an oppressive dictator which favours one and targets others. This is, afterall, what the 'democracy' will turn into as soon as it's given the chance. In this respect I see the logic in splitting Iraq into smaller states (with effective UN protection of course). It worked for Pakistan and India (did it not? Not 100% sure on this topic). However being the idealist I am I'd like to believe that by appealing to the better nature of many of the citizens a stage could be reached whereby they all tolerate and live with one another peacefully. There's a similar problem, if I understand it correctly, with the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Veil05 · 6 Jan 2005, 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadval

It's late so can't be bothered finding the quotes.

Iraq is simply too divided already between various religous groups. It contains too many extremists for democracy to be effective. Imagine putting half the Middle Eastern Muslims in America, equal to the amount of fundamentalist christians over there (i.e. a lot). Then imagine getting the same amount of Jews from Israel and putting them there aswell. Do you really expect to maintain a functioning democracy (let's pretend it's a functioning democracy at the moment) and avoid conflict and civil war? These factions in Iraq hate eachother and the only thing to keep them all together is an oppressive dictator which favours one and targets others. This is, afterall, what the 'democracy' will turn into as soon as it's given the chance. In this respect I see the logic in splitting Iraq into smaller states (with effective UN protection of course). It worked for Pakistan and India (did it not? Not 100% sure on this topic). However being the idealist I am I'd like to believe that by appealing to the better nature of many of the citizens a stage could be reached whereby they all tolerate and live with one another peacefully. There's a similar problem, if I understand it correctly, with the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Yes, atm its like having 6 starving dogs and throwing a steak in between them all. there tearing each other apart to stop one another from getting leadership. spliting it onto fractions would be the most logical thing to do.

btw Nad, keep in touch. *kiss kiss*