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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 12:40   #1
Achilles
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Who watches the Watchers?

I should begin by saying that I am extremely reluctant to write this thread but I honestly feel as if I have been left with few options. Despite assurances from several members of PATeam on several seperate occasions I have been kept in the dark and generally ignored, presumably in the hope I would just go away.

Just this morning I received an email from Jolt asking if I disputed Remy's evidence. Not only did this happen after my planet had been deleted but I had already provided the very same Jolt representative with a full list refuting Remy's "evidence"* in a previous mail. Nice to see the paying customer get the respect he deserves eh

Having been closed for what I perceived to be biased reasons I took it upon myself to inquire a little more closely into Remy's motives. In the course of this investigation I came upon information that Remy does a large part of the tech for Conspiracy, a current top ranked alliance. This includes their intelligence database (I wonder if it's surprisingly accurate) and access to channels there under his own nick and another. This has been going on for quite some time.

I'm not sure how this can possibly be deemed acceptable by PATeam but when I reported it I was largely ignored. Promises to keep me informed went unfulfilled. The circle of wagons simply drew itself tighter. Protecting your own is admirable, as is loyalty, but these qualities are not absolutes existing in a vacuum. As far as I am concerned Remy is a cheat. He abuses his power to fulfill personal agendas and is not held accountable. This time it was me who took the hit, next time it could well be you.

To Jenova and Vengeance: I believe you have also had scanners closed. Perhaps you should inquire as to how many Conspiracy planets this has happened to. I could tell you but I'm sure the answer is obvious.


*lies

edit- I have made Jolt aware of this thread with a direct url and the following comment:
"Perhaps you would care to venture a response to the people you expect to pay for your product next round."

Last edited by Achilles; 16 Jul 2007 at 12:49.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 12:43   #2
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Given that the current MH-team is the biggest joke since Comical Ali from Baghdad, this doesn't surprise me at all.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 12:47   #3
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

remy is a piece of shit who needs to be removed from anything that have with pa to do. (mh,team etc)
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 12:52   #4
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

i'm not sure whether to laugh, or just shake my head in disbelief.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 12:54   #5
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Well this is what I have to say:

JOLT PLEASE PLEASE PULL THE PLUG ON PLANETARION

PLANETARION IS DYING AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO PLAY WILL BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT IT.

DONT MAKE ANOTHER ROUND

PULL THE PLUG

DEATH 2 PLANETARION

come on guys this game is like the shittest ever, EVERYBODY GET A LIFE!!

AHAHAHAH
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Round 17 - Rank 3 - Omen (Zik)
Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 28 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 83 - Rank 10 - #METOO (Zik)
Round 85 - Rank 3 - QQ (Etd)
Round 89 - Rank 2 - VGN (Zik)
Round 91 - Rank 9 - VGN (Zik)
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:07   #6
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
PULL THE PLUG

DEATH 2 PLANETARION
/me agrees
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:12   #7
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
In the course of this investigation I came upon information that Remy does a large part of the tech for Conspiracy, a current top ranked alliance. This includes their intelligence database (I wonder if it's surprisingly accurate) and access to channels there under his own nick and another. This has been going on for quite some time.
When I was NDA'd and became a MH I was told to drop all alliances ties, which meant I could only hang around my former alliances public channels and not do any coding work for them. If this is the case Remy should no longer be a MH as he has violated a rule which (should) still be on the NDA and makes him very biased from the neutral reader.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:18   #8
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
Well this is what I have to say:

JOLT PLEASE PLEASE PULL THE PLUG ON PLANETARION

PLANETARION IS DYING AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO PLAY WILL BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT IT.

DONT MAKE ANOTHER ROUND

PULL THE PLUG

DEATH 2 PLANETARION

come on guys this game is like the shittest ever, EVERYBODY GET A LIFE!!

AHAHAHAH
Caps fail.
Tbh, for the last 10-15 rounds (or more) everyone has been saying the game is failing.

Jolt leave most of the decisions up to us, the PA Team.
And what will the people do without Planetarion? Spend 10x as much on WoW? :P
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:25   #9
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

er so appoco what about the other stuff? you picked the wrong person to respond to

bit crazy achi being deleted for scanning and it was pretty obvious remy was biased, MH is losing a bit of respect/effectiveness here
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:28   #10
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Caps fail.
Tbh, for the last 10-15 rounds (or more) everyone has been saying the game is failing.

Jolt leave most of the decisions up to us, the PA Team.
And what will the people do without Planetarion? Spend 10x as much on WoW? :P
DONT FORCE ME TO PLAY WOW, I'll RATHER CONSIDER HAVING SEX WITH NADARS MUM
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:30   #11
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
When I was NDA'd and became a MH I was told to drop all alliances ties, which meant I could only hang around my former alliances public channels and not do any coding work for them. If this is the case Remy should no longer be a MH as he has violated a rule which (should) still be on the NDA and makes him very biased from the neutral reader.
To my understanding, remy became a MH because CT didn't want him as a coder in the first place (iirc, Bashar was coding).
I believe that more recently they've used some of his old code, which I think he sometimes updates, but he isn't involved in using it actively. Whilst he has or had access to one of their private channels, I've been told that no one actually saw him in them. Having consulted Cservice legitimately, I've discovered that his accesses certainly predate this round.
In terms of the cases he's made, the support planet rule is still in the EULA, and the only issue I can see is that previously scanners were, in practice, not always clamped down so hard on. Having personally read many of his cases, I know that he's gone through several planets to take the 2-3 scan planets (out of 15+ investigated) who seemed to be seriously breaching the rule.
I know, working as I do occasionally as a MH, that he often puts in quite a lot of time and effort to each case and has persistently been the most active MH this round. He also discusses as much as possible with other multihunters to try and remove discrepencies in enforcement of rules.
I've enough spent time with him as he went through each scan made, tracking planets across exiles.
In terms of bias, I've also looked at the cases he's made. I cannot see any bias, and I've looked at the tools which he uses and drawn the same conclusions about more regular support planet rules that he has drawn.
Of course, many of the cases come from community input, but if fewer people are reporting CT planets with evidence of cheating then it's hard to justify the fact that he's closed fewer of them than others.
In conclusion, he has my full support and I personally do not have any issue with him continuing to be part of the department as a fellow multihunter.
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 16 Jul 2007 at 13:52.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:30   #12
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

remy isnt a cheat, but he is extremely bias. its ridiculous, hes even the GC in 1:1. what kind of role model is he setting to new players?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:35   #13
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

it is a blatent piss take!

blatent and the sooner remy is out of the pa team then the sooner we can all return to normal,

pa team why are u letting sh!t like this happen... look after ur own yea...
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:46   #14
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
remy isnt a cheat, but he is extremely bias. its ridiculous, hes even the GC in 1:1. what kind of role model is he setting to new players?
"The moon is made of blue cheese".
I'd welcome you, and others, actually giving a reason as to why he's biased. Unless you're referring to Achi's post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achi
I should begin by saying that I am extremely reluctant to write this thread but I honestly feel as if I have been left with few options. Despite assurances from several members of PATeam on several seperate occasions I have been kept in the dark and generally ignored, presumably in the hope I would just go away.
Not the case. As I just posted, I have investigated in the last couple of days. I was trying to finalise a few minor points, but apparently I spent too long trying to do that instead of informing you of the reliability of remy immediately.

Quote:
Just this morning I received an email from Jolt asking if I disputed Remy's evidence. Not only did this happen after my planet had been deleted but I had already provided the very same Jolt representative with a full list refuting Remy's "evidence"* in a previous mail. Nice to see the paying customer get the respect he deserves eh
This is a free game, you're not a paying customer.
Also, you neglected to mention exactly when you e-mailed him. I'm sure it was immediately after you were closed?

Quote:
Having been closed for what I perceived to be biased reasons I took it upon myself to inquire a little more closely into Remy's motives.
That is your opinion, as you stated.
As I have stated, having gone over the scans with remy, there were a fair few scans that you were doing for Asc. The motives he had, as far as I can see, where that in his view you were in breach of the support planet rule, as defined by the EULA, which I think you were, fairly undeniably.
Quote:
In the course of this investigation I came upon information that Remy does a large part of the tech for Conspiracy, a current top ranked alliance.This includes their intelligence database (I wonder if it's surprisingly accurate) and access to channels there under his own nick and another. This has been going on for quite some time.
I believe actually he hosts it. There's a big difference between hosting something and actively being involved in running it. For example, I know that Laze used to run many of the private servers for alliances.
As for the alliance thing, there's again a difference between having access to something and actively using it.
You appear to be mistaking the fact that he potentially has access with him actively using it, unless a member of CT, preferably a HC, is willing to comment?
In effect, it's the same as calling all women prostitutes and all men rapists.

Quote:
I'm not sure how this can possibly be deemed acceptable by PATeam but when I reported it I was largely ignored. Promises to keep me informed went unfulfilled.
I didn't ignore you; I spent quite some time talking to you. If you see above about being kept informed, I was willing to give you a summary after I'd done something that I was going to sort out today (ish). Unfortunately, I've got an essay to write for tomorrow morning and my computer monitor broke on saturday, and part of sunday we had a powercut, which has obviously delayed me.

Quote:
The circle of wagons simply drew itself tighter. Protecting your own is admirable, as is loyalty, but these qualities are not absolutes existing in a vacuum. As far as I am concerned Remy is a cheat. He abuses his power to fulfill personal agendas and is not held accountable. This time it was me who took the hit, next time it could well be you.
You're welcome to your opinion, but I continue to disagree with you. You've not shown any evidence of him cheating nor abusing his power. The burden of proof is on you (as it is generally on MH in cases) to justify your claims.
Indeed, why would he want to close you for personal reasons?

Quote:
To Jenova and Vengeance: I believe you have also had scanners closed. Perhaps you should inquire as to how many Conspiracy planets this has happened to. I could tell you but I'm sure the answer is obvious.
As far as I know, all of CT's scanners are actually in tag. This seems to be a minor oversight on your comments, i.e. planets closed for being out of tag because they're out of tag can't happen if the planets are in tag in the first place.
I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong

Quote:
edit- I have made Jolt aware of this thread with a direct url and the following comment:
"Perhaps you would care to venture a response to the people you expect to pay for your product next round."
I'm sure biffy will be delighted to hear from you again.



And in reply to the title of the thread: I do.
I watch me too, but I'm sure Cin and Lunar keep an eye on me just incase I start cheating.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:56   #15
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
the support planet rule is still in the EULA, and the only issue I can see is that previously scanners were, in practice, not always clamped down so hard on.
I’m not going to comment on anything else you have put as clearly I am not aware of all the information that you are, so I’ll trust your actual statements on this as I believe you actually are a good guy and wouldn't lie.

However my main question is why over the last 3 rounds have the multihunters suddenly gone so crazy and politically correct closing planets left, right and centre. I mean christ; people used to get away with blatant swear words in their names, gal banners with skaddly clothed women and so forth. It just seems over recent rounds there has been a sudden surge to warn/close as many planets as possible, in many cases with little common sense applied at all.

If planetarion really is to survive and possibly grow, Pa Team should be looking after their current membership, and not seemingly alienating them from the majority. On a personal note I've never felt so frustrated by developments in PA as i do now.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:57   #16
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

To be honest, if you want to criticise anyone for remy still being around, criticise me.
I convinced him not to quit and refused to remove his access.

For the record, he's the only one who's actually actively done anything against CT planets this round.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 13:58   #17
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
I’m not going to comment on anything else you have put as clearly I am not aware of all the information that you are, so I’ll trust your actual statements on this as I believe you actually are a good guy and wouldn't lie.

However my main question is why over the last 3 rounds have the multihunters suddenly gone so crazy and politically correct closing planets left, right and centre. I mean christ; people used to get away with blatant swear words in their names, gal banners with skaddly clothed women and so forth. It just seems over recent rounds there has been a sudden surge to warn/close as many planets as possible, in many cases with little common sense applied at all.

If planetarion really is to survive and possibly grow, Pa Team should be looking after their current membership, and not seemingly alienating them from the majority. On a personal note I've never felt so frustrated by developments in PA as i do now.
From the development point of view, which developments?

From the MH perspective, I'd prefer to allow Fiery to comment
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:08   #18
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Just at a tangent - Are multihunters monitored to check they're doing their jobs (ie: closing people)?

I remember that I was part of #support but was removed after my probation period, as it was deemed that I wasn't answering enough questions. In truth, I often was there but only bothered to answer questions when noone else was around. Being removed was fair enough, as there obviously were enough other support staff without me being needed.

In terms of MH though, do they feel they have to meet some sort of quota of closed planets, just to prove that they're doing their job? If so, that isn't right - but then is there any way of changing this?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:13   #19
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
all his posts
I agree completely!

Remy is the only MH actually trying to do something about the blatently exploiters, cheaters and barriers pushing pa corrupters.

/me Supports Remy
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:14   #20
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
From the development point of view, which developments?
Do ship stats count as 'development'?

I was also very frustrated with the developments Cin was doing, while in the future they may be a step in the right direction in other peoples views, they aren't really achieving a whole lot in the short term.

Bugs that have existed for rounds still do, and suggestions that were basically universally agreed would be good for the game seem to be put on the back burner, while 1 person's view of how it should work is developed, mainly because he is the one developing it. (not that I don't appreciate he is doing all this for free, but it is still frustrating).

We are also in the middle of a free round which has seemed to be the worst round for PA since round 10.5.

There just simply seems to be a complete lack of common sense. I mean seriously, the support planet rule. There is a SIMPLE way to sort this problem, and that is simply to remove the alliance limit completely, allowing alliances to have as many members as they want in-tag, meaning no need for 'support' planets.

If an alliance wants to have 300 planets, fine let them, its possibly 230 more planets than the game would have otherwise.

The whole reason for having an 'open' alliance ranking system where everyone can see their own alliances standing is to allow alliances in the main the opportunity to take actions as required, and to be able to determine their own future.

Kargool and Wakey may argue that the alliance limit should stay as is, but the simple question is WHY? Alliances strength isn't just determined by the amount of members they have. Besides if an alliance had 300 members (not a chance I know but hey lets dream), I'm sure quite a few alliances would actually help each other to take them on. This is what we used to call politics, and used to be an important part of the game...


Quote:
From the MH perspective, I'd prefer to allow Fiery to comment
I'm asking you, as you seem to be the person with overall 'control'.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:20   #21
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Just at a tangent - Are multihunters monitored to check they're doing their jobs (ie: closing people)?

I remember that I was part of #support but was removed after my probation period, as it was deemed that I wasn't answering enough questions. In truth, I often was there but only bothered to answer questions when noone else was around. Being removed was fair enough, as there obviously were enough other support staff without me being needed.

In terms of MH though, do they feel they have to meet some sort of quota of closed planets, just to prove that they're doing their job? If so, that isn't right - but then is there any way of changing this?
get a clue....

ofcourse they are monitored, just read apoccos post

:waves:
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:26   #22
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
DONT FORCE ME TO PLAY WOW, I'll RATHER CONSIDER HAVING SEX WITH NADARS MUM
You already did that, dad.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:30   #23
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

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You already did that, dad.
I am your father Nadar.

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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:32   #24
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
To my understanding, remy became a MH because CT didn't want him as a coder in the first place (iirc, Bashar was coding).
I believe that more recently they've used some of his old code, which I think he sometimes updates, but he isn't involved in using it actively.
Your not seeing the point Appoco, if a MH has ties to an alliance and is also involved with high level administration and being able to look up user data then from the average player how is that meant to look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Having consulted Cservice legitimately, I've discovered that his accesses certainly predate this round.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is a free game, you're not a paying customer.
This is a totally null and void comment. This is not the first cock up from the MH Team and I certainly know it won't be the last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I believe actually he hosts it.
If he's hosting it then ofc he has full access to all the data, as well as being able to add/edit/delete information, which again probably wouldn't happen but still, look at it from the average joe.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:34   #25
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appoco
Not the case. As I just posted, I have investigated in the last couple of days. I was trying to finalise a few minor points, but apparently I spent too long trying to do that instead of informing you of the reliability of remy immediately.
I have already waited 11 days. Which is something close to 1/5 of a whole round. How long am I meant to wait?

Quote:
This is a free game, you're not a paying customer.
I have spent over £100 paying for credits for this game, for myself and others. But you're right of course, that means nothing. Good point, well made.

Quote:
Also, you neglected to mention exactly when you e-mailed him. I'm sure it was immediately after you were closed?
I mailed within 3 days of being closed when you made it quite clear you didn't want to talk to me about it. Infact you gave me the email address.

Quote:
As I have stated, having gone over the scans with remy, there were a fair few scans that you were doing for Asc. The motives he had, as far as I can see, where that in his view you were in breach of the support planet rule, as defined by the EULA, which I think you were, fairly undeniably.
That rule in it's current form can be used to close almost anyone for almost any reason, which I think you'll agree is fairly undeniable.

Quote:
I believe actually he hosts it. There's a big difference between hosting something and actively being involved in running it. For example, I know that Laze used to run many of the private servers for alliances.
As for the alliance thing, there's again a difference between having access to something and actively using it.
You appear to be mistaking the fact that he potentially has access with him actively using it, unless a member of CT, preferably a HC, is willing to comment?
What? You think I just guessed and ran to Cservice hoping I'd get lucky? I doubt that person will comment publicly but I can assure you he was active in those channels. Also, this does not explain the fact that he used his own nick for #ct-tech and another, fake nick, for other channels. I'm sure it's all above board though. Really.

Quote:
As far as I know, all of CT's scanners are actually in tag. This seems to be a minor oversight on your comments, i.e. planets closed for being out of tag because they're out of tag can't happen if the planets are in tag in the first place.
Heh.

Quote:
And in reply to the title of the thread: I do. [police the police]
Quote:
[20:10] <AppocoNap> I don't have the authority to fire remy, or review fiery's team
So now it's come down to you lying to protect the team aswell. Care to clarify for everyone which time you were telling the truth? Just so that at least we know.

Quote:
I'm sure biffy will be delighted to hear from you again.
I'm sure he doesn't give a shit. I doubt he knows about it anyway, the email you gave me was for some dude called "bigfoot".
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:38   #26
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
"The moon is made of blue cheese".
I'd welcome you, and others, actually giving a reason as to why he's biased. Unless you're referring to Achi's post?
Lies. moon is made from some sort of non-delicious substance.

I was referring to Achi's post yes.

It is my personal opinion that he is biased. It is you're opinion that he isn't. However, he is an active key member in a major alliance, surely a breach of "NDA" rules?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:40   #27
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

How come so many people can do spying using members of c-service?

I mean ffs - stop abusing c service for your intel.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:44   #28
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
How come so many people can do spying using members of c-service?

I mean ffs - stop abusing c service for your intel.
Make a new thread, stop trying to derail this one.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:50   #29
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I believe that more recently they've used some of his old code, which I think he sometimes updates
Sounds like doublespeak to me.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:51   #30
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I believe actually he hosts it. There's a big difference between hosting something and actively being involved in running it. For example, I know that Laze used to run many of the private servers for alliances.
Laze was never a multihunter or PAteam. He provided a paid hosting service which included tools that he had coded. I really don't see how the situation is in any way comparable.

But when JBG was asked to choose between PAteam and Ascendancy, he was told he would have to break all ties. I don't understand why development is classed as different from having access to admin tools.

Quote:
I didn't ignore you; I spent quite some time talking to you. If you see above about being kept informed, I was willing to give you a summary after I'd done something that I was going to sort out today (ish). Unfortunately, I've got an essay to write for tomorrow morning and my computer monitor broke on saturday, and part of sunday we had a powercut, which has obviously delayed me.
Unfortunately good customer service is completely unrelated to how much you tried to do. It's how well you actually serve the customer that matters. In this case, you failed. It's up to you and Jolt to decide whether to change anything as a consequence of this, but Achi is the judge of whether or not you have successfully served him. (But that doesn't mean he's right to claim that something must change.)

In my opinion it seems you did what PAteam so often does, you overpromised and then failed to deliver.

Quote:
Indeed, why would he want to close you for personal reasons?
No one likes us Ascendancy people, and especially not the multihunters.

Here's an example:

Quote:
21/06/2007 17:29 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] who of you gits sent those stupid mails to alliances
21/06/2007 17:29 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] sniborp?
21/06/2007 17:29 [msg(remy|afk)] I don't know
21/06/2007 17:29 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] cos this way, you ae already on a bad start with the MHs
Quote:
30/05/2007 03:00 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] i hope asc never wins another round
30/05/2007 03:00 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] good players, but a lot of your players have attitude problems
30/05/2007 03:00 [remy|afk(~me@remy|afk.users.netgamers.org)] id rather not have ppl like them winning
I don't really believe in arguments of bias, but to me it seems all too likely that the MHs saw Rob and/or Achi as an opportunity to "finally" nail some of those annoying Ascendancy players. We have had a lot of people closed and reopened throughout our existence, and we even had one guy deleted for self-exiling too much*. The MHs complain to us that our behavior is annoying, time wasting and as seen above we have 'attitude problems'.

Was it incorrect to close them? I think so, but I'd say that in any case where a person was closed for interacting oog/ooc/ooa. Do I think the multihunters victimize Ascendancy more than other alliances? Not really. I've seen them re-open too many abusive whiners to be able to believe that.

To me, the multihunters have turned into a bunch bullies that run around enforcing arbitrary law for no good reason.

*IIRC he didn't contest the closure.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:52   #31
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Seriously.

You complaint over Remy and accuse him of stuff.

But how on earth did you get a hold of alot of Cservice information?

And its not like the first time is it.

Both Alki and Archi is supposed to have abused Cservice info this round (Alki to map his galaxy for fakenicks and Archi everyone can read for themselfes).

Who on Cservice clearly shoulndt be part of Cservice?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:54   #32
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Both Alki and Archi is supposed to have abused Cservice info this round (Alki to map his galaxy for fakenicks and Archi everyone can read for themselfes).
Alki is in a galaxy with 9 people from Asc/Desc?!
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:55   #33
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester

To me, the multihunters have turned into a bunch bullies that run around enforcing arbitrary law for no good reason.
A bloody GREED
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:56   #34
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

What is it with you and cservice?

The "information" (I presume you mean the log with Remy) is either from a PM or a public channel, I'm guessing.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 14:59   #35
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
What? You think I just guessed and ran to Cservice hoping I'd get lucky? I doubt that person will comment publicly but I can assure you he was active in those channels. Also, this does not explain the fact that he used his own nick for #ct-tech and another, fake nick, for other channels. I'm sure it's all above board though. Really.
Amongst others - Getting regged p nicks for channels - Checking IPs to pnicks saying Remy got 2 P nicks registered to some channels.

All this info has to come trough C-service right?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:15   #36
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Wrong. With enough access, regular users can view the accesslist on www.netgamers.org.

As for the IPs to the nicks, it can also be done using /dns command if the person doesn't have +x mode set. I don't think this was actually used, I would guess the information game via non-technical methods, so to say.

So you don't need "assistance" from NG staff or their powers to do either of the above.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:18   #37
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin
Wrong. With enough access, regular users can view the accesslist on www.netgamers.org.
Yeah but i wonder how many people has access to #ct-tech channellist...

Would anyone trying to fakenick not use +x ?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:19   #38
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

The issue at large is the information that was gathered, not how it was gathered.

If you want to discuss that Red start your own thread, else stay out of this one.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:25   #39
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

But isnt the accusations against Remy that hes Biased and abusing powers etc.? Id call this post biased and a result of abuse of powers.

Remy has allways been nice and welcoming and one of the most levelheaded and friendly MHs ive talked too - And on top of that he actually tries to do something about abuse, exploits and cheaters protecting PA's integrity as a game.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:25   #40
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I have already waited 11 days. Which is something close to 1/5 of a whole round. How long am I meant to wait?
On the 11th you asked me when you were being deleted. On the 13th I talked to you about some of the things you mentioned in your post and promised to get back to you, which I assume is what you were referring to. Today is the 16th.

Quote:
I mailed within 3 days of being closed when you made it quite clear you didn't want to talk to me about it. Infact you gave me the email address.
You asked me for his e-mail address. I gave you his e-mail address. Towards the beginning of when you were closed, I was more keen for remy and Fiery to have their say.

Quote:
What? You think I just guessed and ran to Cservice hoping I'd get lucky? I doubt that person will comment publicly but I can assure you he was active in those channels. Also, this does not explain the fact that he used his own nick for #ct-tech and another, fake nick, for other channels. I'm sure it's all above board though. Really.
Yes, I've heard from cservice about the services you've 'gained'.
Apparently this fake nickname is a bot nickname, which is of course a 'fake' nickname. So I assume you weren't being sarcastic.

Quote:
So now it's come down to you lying to protect the team aswell. Care to clarify for everyone which time you were telling the truth? Just so that at least we know.
Just because I watch doesn't mean I have the authority to do anything. I can always advise other members of the team on their department, or even biffy. I'm a slightly paranoid sort of person - ask my housemates.

Or if I wanted something done I could just write threads on here

Quote:
I'm sure he doesn't give a shit. I doubt he knows about it anyway, the email you gave me was for some dude called "bigfoot".
"Heh".
bigfoot already exists on this network, so he had to abbreviate his nickname. He's therefore known as biffy to Planetarion, but bigfoot in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
However, he is an active key member in a major alliance, surely a breach of "NDA" rules?
Unfortunately, so far no evidence has been given to show anything of this nature. I believe the technical term is "alleged". I can state that allegedly you said the moon is made of chese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
Your not seeing the point Appoco, if a MH has ties to an alliance and is also involved with high level administration and being able to look up user data then from the average player how is that meant to look?
See above.

Quote:
This is a totally null and void comment. This is not the first cock up from the MH Team and I certainly know it won't be the last.
Indeed. You yourself were a member of the MH team.

Quote:
If he's hosting it then ofc he has full access to all the data, as well as being able to add/edit/delete information, which again probably wouldn't happen but still, look at it from the average joe.
At least you're doing better than you first statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin
Wrong. With enough access, regular users can view the accesslist on www.netgamers.org.

As for the IPs to the nicks, it can also be done using /dns command if the person doesn't have +x mode set. I don't think this was actually used, I would guess the information game via non-technical methods, so to say.

So you don't need "assistance" from NG staff or their powers to do either of the above.
Achi has no access to CT channels and has assured me he asked a member of the Cservice administrative staff to check this. He also assured me he used it to get detailed information about the number of people added to each of the top alliance channels.
To quote him, "I'm sure it's all above board though. Really."
Remy always uses +x, but cservice administrators can see the real IP addresses and the last used IP address of the person logging in.

Rob, an IRC operator, also has access to some of these things - certainly the IP addresses, and apparently some access to cservice commands.
He was one of the people that jester mentioned above.
Edit:
I'm just trying to explain that it may not strictly speaking be a CService administrator, but it must be someone with a certain degree of access.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:26   #41
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

From the evidence presented to me by the MH team I think the correct decision was taken in this case, though I must emphasise that I'm very much a lay person when it comes to MHing.

The case does highlight some of the challenges the MH Team & PA Team face in dealing with the support planet issue and I'm sure they will be looking at ways of improving this and preventing the issue through more clearly defined rules.

With regards to Remy I leave that decision up to PA Team and they seem to back him fully so that's good enough for me.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:26   #42
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
But isnt the accusations against Remy that hes Biased and abusing powers etc.? Id call this post biased and a result of abuse of powers.
The idea is to debate the information as it has been set out infront of you. Not to totally ignore it because you don't agree with how it has been obtained.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:29   #43
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Unfortunately, so far no evidence has been given to show anything of this nature. I believe the technical term is "alleged". I can state that allegedly you said the moon is made of chese.

Unfortunately for remy, the discussion at hand isnt about what the moon is made from, its about his some what dubious approach to his job. From what you've just said "Allegedly", im assuming remy is denying any position in CT?
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:30   #44
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffy
The case does highlight some of the challenges the MH Team & PA Team face in dealing with the support planet issue and I'm sure they will be looking at ways of improving this and preventing the issue through more clearly defined rules.
Oh goodie, more things that we won't be allowed to do anymore, I can't wait.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:36   #45
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

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Originally Posted by Game^
The idea is to debate the information as it has been set out infront of you. Not to totally ignore it because you don't agree with how it has been obtained.
Whichever CService staffer gave Achi the info about Remy was most likely way out of line, I can't imagine IRC ops are allowed to give out information about users to outsiders. And in a court of law, illegally obtained evidence is discarded. I realise the forums are not a court of law, not even close, but it's something to keep in mind.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:39   #46
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Whichever CService staffer gave Achi the info about Remy was most likely way out of line, I can't imagine IRC ops are allowed to give out information about users to outsiders. And in a court of law, illegally obtained evidence is discarded. I realise the forums are not a court of law, not even close, but it's something to keep in mind.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:40   #47
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

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Originally Posted by Red-
But isnt the accusations against Remy that hes Biased and abusing powers etc.? Id call this post biased and a result of abuse of powers.
This is a discussion about whether a MH in Planetarion is abusing his powers, not if someone in Netgamers is abusing powers, which by the way is completely irrelevant for this forum as Netgamers and Planetarion are two different entities. If you want to discuss Netgamers' staff, I suggest you start a thread on their forum (if they have any).
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:42   #48
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Achilles, you were on a pretty righteous crusade until this silly post trying to make this into a CT conspiracy. Starting a new tag resembling another tag is asking to have the multi-hunters take a look at you. Everyone everywhere in PA was trying to figure out what you guys were up to and thanks to the Asc mystique a lot of them figured it was some sneaky tactic to help Asc win. At the very least it looked like a surprisingly blatant attempt to setup support planets out of tag.

That is why you attracted attention and you got closed because of the bad decision to make scanning an illegal support activity. Which is what we should really be talking about here.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:42   #49
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Whichever CService staffer gave Achi the info about Remy was most likely way out of line, I can't imagine IRC ops are allowed to give out information about users to outsiders. And in a court of law, illegally obtained evidence is discarded. I realise the forums are not a court of law, not even close, but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm fully aware of that.

However this isn't a court of law, and as such the evidence is fine to be debated upon.

How the evidence was gathered, and whether it was right he got this information is a completely different subject and is doing nothing else than derailing this thread.

Id actually ask a mod to split these posts off this thread into a new thread if possible. Then Red is free to debate what happened where all he wants. Id prefer to keep this thread about the MH's as a whole, their application of the rules and whether it is acceptable as a whole.
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Unread 16 Jul 2007, 15:45   #50
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
Achilles, you were on a pretty righteous crusade until this silly post trying to make this into a CT conspiracy. Starting a new tag resembling another tag is asking to have the multi-hunters take a look at you. Everyone everywhere in PA was trying to figure out what you guys were up to and thanks to the Asc mystique a lot of them figured it was some sneaky tactic to help Asc win. At the very least it looked like a surprisingly blatant attempt to setup support planets out of tag.

That is why you attracted attention and you got closed because of the bad decision to make scanning an illegal support activity. Which is what we should really be talking about here.
I don't actually believe it is Achi's intention to actually accuse CT as a whole of anything, so I wouldn't take it as that. The reason it was brought up i'd imagine was to show that bias from remy may/could exist.
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