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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 17:47   #1
mist
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the right to vote

most people seem to believe that it's their right to vote. however, i'm rapidly reaching the conclusion that this should not be the case.

anyone know of any previous occasions/institutions whereby people have to show a basic competence in order to be eligable to vote?

for example, in the uk i'd expect someone to be able to name the leaders of the three main political parties if they expected to be able to vote - otherwise is there really any point?
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 17:53   #2
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Re: the right to vote

probably the biggest problem of democracy.

to your first question - no.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 17:55   #3
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Re: the right to vote

A democratic meritocracy perhaps?
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 18:06   #4
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
for example, in the uk i'd expect someone to be able to name the leaders of the three main political parties if they expected to be able to vote - otherwise is there really any point?
Why? What on earth credibility does that give someone? If we're going to introduce some sort of testing system I'd prefer someone understand vaguely how our legal system worked, or how taxes were spent / raised. "Who is the leader of the opposition" might be an appropriate pub quiz question, but I wouldn't want political capacity judged on that. I am not going to vote for the Conservative Party, why would I care who their leader was?

There are numerous reasons to be against this type of testing, but let's stay with this one. You may think it is terribly important people memorise the dullards who make up the House of Commons, I do not. Likewise I'm sure the things I think are vital are probably of little or no importance to others. I have never seen an advocate of this kind of testing give an example of questions you could ask which weren't completely ridiculous.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:20   #5
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Re: the right to vote

i'd assume part of the the reason that you wouldn't vote for the conservativ party would be their political stance, a large part of which i'd expect to be determined by their leader. hence, knowing who their leader is would seem quite useful in deciding not to vote for them, and threfore for the political process. although, i agree that a knowledge of what tax is/would be spent on is also important
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:23   #6
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
anyone know of any previous occasions/institutions whereby people have to show a basic competence in order to be eligable to vote?
Ancient Greece, and pre-20th century 'most places', if by competence you mean 'being a male and not a peasant'.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:30   #7
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Even idiots should have a right to decide their own future
Isnt this an argument against democracy altogether?
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:32   #8
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Re: the right to vote

Been reading Robert heinlein have we?
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:55   #9
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Ancient Greece, and pre-20th century 'most places', if by competence you mean 'being a male and not a peasant'.
not quite what i had in mind :/
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 19:56   #10
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Re: the right to vote

Maybe the only person who should get a vote is the most intelligent guy in the world? Namely Comrade Stalin.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 20:00   #11
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Re: the right to vote

What about Dr. Zaius?
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 20:01   #12
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Re: the right to vote

Maybe in a few thousand years.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 20:06   #13
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Exclamation Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
for example, in the uk i'd expect someone to be able to name the leaders of the three main political parties if they expected to be able to vote - otherwise is there really any point?
Well, there's 85% of the population out of the running for starters.
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Unread 25 Jan 2005, 20:53   #14
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Exclamation Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
anyone know of any previous occasions/institutions whereby people have to show a basic competence in order to be eligable to vote?
There used to be a wide variety of literacy, constitutional and election tests that were administered throughout the southern United States. Officially, these tests were supposed to ensure a higher calibre of voter; in practice, their primary effect was to exclude blacks from voting.

I have no objection to voting requirements in principle, but how do you prevent them from being arbitrary?
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 10:35   #15
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Re: the right to vote

I think he's thinking about the UKIP and BNP support base more than the Conservative party.
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 11:24   #16
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
What's the difference?
You said
Quote:
I assuemd your point was that there were clearly too many people voting Conservative and given and thus there should eb soem sort of qualification against idiots (presumably they represent a large part of the Conservative vote).
And I was trying to simply say that the conservative party have less idiot base than the BNP and UKIP.
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 11:44   #17
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Re: the right to vote

I wasn't really being serious.
I'd say Labour have a bigger idiot base than the Conservatives as well at the moment.
In fact do the Conservatives have much support at all?

Most people vote for whoever the Murdoch papers tell them to.

This is a real conversation I've had with someone:
Them: "Ooh I don't like that Tony Blair"
Me: "Why not?"
"Well, he's a liar isn't he?"
"Do you know what he's lied about?"
"Well, no, but the sun said he's a liar so he must be."
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 16:25   #18
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Re: the right to vote

getting the thread back on track.

the answer is no. it would cost far too much money to administer such tests.
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 16:31   #19
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's not really an argument though is it. Surely democracy itself has its costs.

With this particular question the "it just wouldn't work" thing seems to ultimately miss the point, however I guess it depends on your overall objectives for democracy.

no.

it would cost 'too much money'. there is little point in perfecting democracy to the point were it bankrupts the nation.
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Unread 26 Jan 2005, 16:56   #20
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
How exactly would a test bankrupt the nation? You may not have noticed but there is extensive use of standardised testing throughout the UK yet some the machinery of Government manages to stutter forwards despite the back-breaking burden.

In any case surely no price is too high to pay for the glorious utopia Mist is presumably advocating by imposing voting restrictions.
clearly the price can be too high.

do please remind me of the standardised tests which are conducted on the entire population who are over 18. i must have forgotten which one you mean.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 02:48   #21
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
this is an interesting point, but it goes deeper than that. Its not just that the media tells us what to vote but as our main source of information it forms many of our opinions as well, which is what ultimately insualtes the political process. Its not just the Sun though, the BBC and The Guardian and the FT do the same thing.
The thing is, Most people who read the Guardian and the FT are generally intelligent enough to form their own opinion. In fact, seriously - Which political party do you actually think the Guardian will back (openly or not) in the next general election? I really have no clue!
It all depends on the amount of media you base your political knowledge on. I guess I'm lucky as I read/watch many different news sources.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 02:56   #22
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Re: the right to vote

ofcourse theres always that right not to vote, and that right to blame and bitch at the retards who voted for the one who might presumably start another world war - when restricting voting to only eligible literates with a minimum IQ of 48 then voting becomes a priviledge and its not democracy anymore
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 03:05   #23
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Re: the right to vote

This is an ultra-serious question guys but can people who are medically defined as mentally disabled vote? I always presumed that it fell under the whole children being unable to vote due to not being considered fully mentally competent or whatever (or maybe they're just being oppressed by the system ) but someone told me they (mentally disabled people that is) could the other day and I was all like "what the ****?"
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 03:59   #24
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Re: the right to vote

-just 18 and over, and be a citizen - as far as mentally retarded individuals, as stated by court, can be able to register to vote under direct supervision of a guardian, also as stated by court if the individual's cognitive impairment doesn't impair decisioning skills (however unintelligent decisions may be) can vote under supervision - convicted felons do not have voting rights
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 05:59   #25
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Re: the right to vote

i assume that's in the us demigod?

would a joke about those laws being neccessary so people in the south can vote be bad?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 06:58   #26
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Even idiots should have a right to decide their own future.
Doesn't necessarily mean they should get to decide mine. :)
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 07:00   #27
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Re: the right to vote

Why we (should) have constitutions.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 07:05   #28
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i assume that's in the us demigod?

would a joke about those laws being neccessary so people in the south can vote be bad?
yea it is.. dont know if its something bad because it gets abused a lot, but at the same time, everybody i think should have voting rights
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 07:21   #29
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
clearly the price can be too high.

do please remind me of the standardised tests which are conducted on the entire population who are over 18. i must have forgotten which one you mean.
they manage the census every 10 years.

although, i suppose that an open test like this would only excluse those to stupid to cheat, but that would at least be a start \o/
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:09   #30
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Re: the right to vote

I believe it would be better to teach some form of UK politics in school. teach people about Democracy, Fascism, Communism etc so people have at least a basic of the system they theoretically have power over.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:10   #31
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Exclamation Re: the right to vote

They're already proceeding in that direction with Citizenship classes.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:23   #32
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Re: the right to vote

Isn't that just for immirents though to make it appear they are cracking down without actualy doing anything?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:28   #33
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Exclamation Re: the right to vote

Err, no. It's also for Secondary School pupils.

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachin...8-591f8aef326d
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:38   #34
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Err, no. It's also for Secondary School pupils.
Even though I am for the idea that website doesn't fill me with confidence. It just seems like some form of brainwashing or something. I think it has something to do with morals being taught in the classroom that gives me the chills. Maybe it's because of the whole Nazi thing on tv at the moment.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:41   #35
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I believe it would be better to teach some form of UK politics in school.
I think it'd be better to teach people how to acquire their own knowledge, and understand, say, statistics and sources, rather than teaching them anything topically specific.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:56   #36
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think it'd be better to teach people how to acquire their own knowledge, and understand, say, statistics and sources, rather than teaching them anything topically specific.
dont give them the fish, teach them how to fish.. i agree, but human nature demands spoonfeeding on things (that are trivial in their minds) that do not motivate them but with full awareness of the importance of these to attain a goal i.e. graduation
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 17:57   #37
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Re: the right to vote

I don't care if they know anything or not, at least they wouldn't be taken in so easily by the popular press.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:08   #38
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think it'd be better to teach people how to acquire their own knowledge, and understand, say, statistics and sources, rather than teaching them anything topically specific.
I agree. thankfully I had two good histroy teachers who taught us how to do that but not until either GCSE or A-Level. Before that we were just told stuff and taught how to regurgitate it. thinking should be taught from a young age, although in the real world it often helps to be a mindless spewer of garbage.
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:08   #39
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Even idiots should have a right to decide their own future. Any such test would be culturally biased and would favour the participation of a certain group of people. The problem for politicians seems to be at the moment that a lot of people aren't voting, at least 30% in General elections.

In any case no matter who you vote for the Government always wins.
Not in my country.

I do believe that the government will lose the coming election
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 18:31   #40
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Not in my country.

I do believe that the government will lose the coming election
I think you've misinterpreted the witticism. Who, after the election, will have won the election?
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Unread 27 Jan 2005, 19:42   #41
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Re: the right to vote

oh dear

woosh!

I thought it was the usual rant "nobody cares about my vote anyway" etc.
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 00:40   #42
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Re: the right to vote

I don't appreciate my "right" to vote. In fact, I would like to point out that I don't really look upon it as a right at all, more a gesture. "Hey pesants, you can vote if we or the other guys are going to oppress you the next few years!" I would much rater have the right to live out my own life.

You people might be afraid of the BNP (I don't know if you are, but maybe you should). But look at poor me, who live in a country where the fascists (They don't label themselfs that, of course, and nobody else in Norway dares exept fools like me. And we get beaten up by cops ) get like 25% of the vote, or at least in the recent polls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In any case no matter who you vote for the Government always wins.
Quoted for truth, even if he does not mean it
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 00:42   #43
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Re: the right to vote

wich party is that?
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 00:50   #44
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Re: the right to vote

FRP. Carl I Hagen and them boys'n'girls.
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 09:19   #45
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i'd assume part of the the reason that you wouldn't vote for the conservativ party would be their political stance, a large part of which i'd expect to be determined by their leader.
Not really. In all but a few cases the leader merely reflects the party more than anything else.

I mean, I was born in 1980 and one of the first political memories I have was someone saying that we could have had free milk at school but some evil woman named Thatcher and the Tory Party had taken it away some years before.

And then my next memory was my uncle who worked for a guy named Rupert Murdoch getting involved in this strike and him blaming the Tory Party for the police beating people up etc etc.

And then, the GLC (which gave us cheap bus fares and other cool stuff) was going to be abolished and there were these demonstrations to "Save the GLC" and I didn't really understand what was going on, but once again someone saying the Tories were to blame.

And then later on the Tories were bombing other countries and that didn't seem so cool.

And then there was the poll tax which people told me was going to fall hardest on the poor and people had to go onto the streets of London and get beaten up by the police again. And again apparently it was these dudes called the Tories who were behind that too.

And then I remember my mum being on benefits and the Tories saying they were going to change Housing Benefit rules so single adults couldn't claim HB for a whole property anymore, which would have possibly meant us losing the housing association flat we had.

So I guess my point is that I don't need to know which particularly ****wit is currently running the Tory Party. They've always been shit and I don't need to know who their current leader is to know I don't want to vote for them thank you very much.
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 10:50   #46
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Like what?
PAMIS, The Guardian, The Telegraph and the Beeb here.
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 11:21   #47
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Like what?
Zmag, National Vanguard, Capmag, BBC, al Jazeera, Fox News, KCNA and the Feminist Weekly News. Must keep prevent one's prejudices from influencing which sources you use right?
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 12:48   #48
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Like what?
GD helps
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 13:19   #49
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So I guess my point is that I don't need to know which particularly ****wit is currently running the Tory Party. They've always been shit and I don't need to know who their current leader is to know I don't want to vote for them thank you very much.
Your post seemed to read more like 'clueless people keep telling me the tories are evil so they are evil'

On a sidenote, surely even you recognise the absurdity of 'free milk for schoolchildren' .
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Unread 28 Jan 2005, 13:22   #50
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Re: the right to vote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Your post seemed to read more like 'clueless people keep telling me the tories are evil so they are evil'
Quite a lot of the understanding of politics is based on what others tell us. Nobody really has time to keep up with everything.

Quote:
On a sidenote, surely even you recognise the absurdity of 'free milk for schoolchildren' .
What's so absurd about it?
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