Existance

[Tietäjä]

I'm halfway through understanding it. But I'm with some serious choices here. So I'll just shoot it.

So, IF everything was originated by a big bang, where did the mass that was released in big bang come from? If there was another universe before it, wich collapsed into a small point of extreme pressure and mass, and exploded causing a big bang, where did that universe come from? If there was a universe, was there intelligent life there?

If there was, is the meaning of the continuous 'heart beating' of the existance (bang, collapse, bang, collapse) just to see how long it takes for some highly developed race to appear and shut down the system and take control (in wich case I doubt humans are good enough)? Or is existance in general, or existance of intelligent life just a sum of random coincidences (lucky lucky), or a sum of a strict reaction that happens for each universe born and doomed to collapse?

If this direction is wrong, and the Universe was createn by some force beyond our understanding (God, A Spirit, or whatsoever), WHERE did it come from, and why did it decide to create something so meaningless, that would just bump and collapse? Just to have something to watch?

Or is it all just an illusion? In this case, I want my personal system to be rebooted ASAP.

How do you expect anybody to answer that ?

[W]

Originally posted by Tietäjä
I'm halfway through understanding it. But I'm with some serious choices here. So I'll just shoot it.

So, IF everything was originated by a big bang, where did the mass that was released in big bang come from? If there was another universe before it, wich collapsed into a small point of extreme pressure and mass, and exploded causing a big bang, where did that universe come from? If there was a universe, was there intelligent life there?

If there was, is the meaning of the continuous 'heart beating' of the existance (bang, collapse, bang, collapse) just to see how long it takes for some highly developed race to appear and shut down the system and take control (in wich case I doubt humans are good enough)? Or is existance in general, or existance of intelligent life just a sum of random coincidences (lucky lucky), or a sum of a strict reaction that happens for each universe born and doomed to collapse?

If this direction is wrong, and the Universe was createn by some force beyond our understanding (God, A Spirit, or whatsoever), WHERE did it come from, and why did it decide to create something so meaningless, that would just bump and collapse? Just to have something to watch?

Or is it all just an illusion? In this case, I want my personal system to be rebooted ASAP.

You don't even know what questions to ask, how do you figure we should provide answers?

If you're talking philosophy, metaphysics, then big bang won't help you. The big bang is what happened AFTER all the mass and energy existed (quite like evolution does not say anything about how life came about), and it's just a physical cosmology, not a metaphysical one.

On the "strict reaction" theme, you might look up something called determinism, then look up compatiblism, and see what you can dig up about "first causes".

[meglamaniac]

The concept of a Universe is a paradox.
If you have a Universe (which, by definition and name, contains everything there is) then what contains the universe? The universe does, if you follow the definition. So you end up with a problem.
So maybe there's lots of universes - contained in a Multiverse. Then what? What the hell contains the multiverse?
This is a problem which is not going to be solved in our lifetimes, or for a fair few generations after that, if at all - so the best advice is to think about something else before your brain implodes.
Whenever I try and think about it (I mean really think about it) I just end up in mess, given that our definition of the whole thing at the moment ends up stuck in a recursive loop. Either we lack the language to express it, or we don't know, or both.

As for the big bang theory - that holds good as far as numx10^-n seconds AFTER the big bang (ie, you can devide the periods of time after it into smaller and smaller bits and the thoery will still work) but the whole thing falls to bits when you try and express the start of the event or anything before it (if indeed there was anything before it). I believe this problem is known as the Singularity, from what I can remember of physics.

Have fun!

[W]

Originally posted by meglamaniac
The concept of a Universe is a paradox.
If you have a Universe (which, by definition and name, contains everything there is) then what contains the universe? The universe does, if you follow the definition. So you end up with a problem.
So maybe there's lots of universes - contained in a Multiverse. Then what? What the hell contains the multiverse?
This is a problem which is not going to be solved in our lifetimes, or for a fair few generations after that, if at all - so the best advice is to think about something else before your brain implodes.
Whenever I try and think about it (I mean really think about it) I just end up in mess, given that our definition of the whole thing at the moment ends up stuck in a recursive loop. Either we lack the language to express it, or we don't know, or both.

Nonsense. If you define the universe as everything that exists (or more accurately, that has any matterial existance) then the unverse IS the universe, it is not contained by itself any more than you're contained by yourself. If you accept this definition of universe, then there can be no "multiverse", as the universe by definition is just one.

[meglamaniac]

Perhaps I expressed what I meant badly (this is a subjective area anyway).
Attempt #2:
Some water is contained in a jug.
The jug is in the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is in the solar system.
The solar system is in the galaxy.
The galaxy is in the universe.
The universe is in....?

To me, the concept of there being a definitive "end" to what can be "in" something is a hard one to accept. I've heard all the "universe is curved" business (ie. has no edge/limit) and don't find that any easier to swallow.
Maybe I'm just limited in my ability to think about stuff like this (which is probably why I'm not taking philosophy or anything remotely related to it), but to me, everything has to have a limit. Which brings up the question of what is beyond the limit of the universe?

[Cmdr_Cyrax]

I was under the impression that the mass forged in the big bang was converted from energy. This is of cource wrong cos of the law 'matter cannot be created ofr destroyed'

I HATE PHYSICS.

[Tietäjä]

Yes, it is quite funny.
It cannot have been born (matter does not born, nor does it disappear), so it MUST have always been. Because always MUST be able to be rewinded back to point when there was nothing, there is a paradox. Where did it come from? Why?

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
I was under the impression that the mass forged in the big bang was converted from energy. This is of cource wrong cos of the law 'matter cannot be created ofr destroyed'

I HATE PHYSICS.

I think the last sentence was unnecessary there, we pretty much worked that out from your gross misunderstanding of your first paragraph.

e=mc2 ring any bells?

[Tietäjä]

So Gayle, thinking about it better, it could have all been in 'well packed packets'. What I mean is, a large piece of matter could have very small mass if it's velocity is high enough?

Still doesn't help, as mass can't obviously be zero.

no doubt some of the children doing physics at uni will turn up soon and start shouting at you all

Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
I was under the impression that the mass forged in the big bang was converted from energy. This is of cource wrong cos of the law 'matter cannot be created ofr destroyed'

I HATE PHYSICS.

i believe you mean energy is neither created or destroyed

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Tietäjä
So Gayle, thinking about it better, it could have all been in 'well packed packets'. What I mean is, a large piece of matter could have very small mass if it's velocity is high enough?

Still doesn't help, as mass can't obviously be zero.

Don't ask me, I struggled through 'Beyond the Red Shift' once but I'm really not qualified to hold opinions on cosmology.

Commenting on someone claiming that making matter from energy is impossible however is a totally different thing

Why do people always need to know 'why' ?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by meglamaniac
Perhaps I expressed what I meant badly (this is a subjective area anyway).
Attempt #2:
Some water is contained in a jug.
The jug is in the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is in the solar system.
The solar system is in the galaxy.
The galaxy is in the universe.
The universe is in....?

Why does everything have to be 'in' something?

If the universe is taken to be the 'whole', then everything else can be taken to be an individual part of this whole. The galaxy is 'in' the universe, in that this particular section of space containing stars is what humans have decided to ascribe the noun 'galaxy' to. The space inside the jug is just another arbitary space within the universe, which we have decided to label 'jug'.

The whole concept of inside and outside (and space in general really) occurs because we are describing individual parts contained within the whole. When we take a more holistic view, theres no logical reason why the whole would need to be 'in' something.

Some water is contained in the universe
The jug is in the universe.
The atmosphere is in the universe.
The solar system is in the universe.
The galaxy is in the universe.

would be more holistic.

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Don't ask me, I struggled through 'Beyond the Red Shift' once but I'm really not qualified to hold opinions on cosmology.

Commenting on someone claiming that making matter from energy is impossible however is a totally different thing

matter is energy afaik

[Tietäjä]

So, Gayle, according to my wits too, to the law of relativity, you could have an object of 100 kg in 'normal' velocities (lower than c2) reduce mass if it had higher velocity (say 9, squareroot of wich would be 3, when the mass would be reduced to one third - but would it reduce size also?) dramatically decrease.


It's interesting to know why, so you could know how and what, and if it really has some goal to aim to.

Originally posted by Tietäjä



It's interesting to know why, so you could know how and what, and if it really has some goal to aim to.

But the answer almost invariably draws a 'but thats impossible!' comment from someone.
you can't -know- why.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Cocaine
matter is energy afaik

Pretty much. Throw the first law of thermodynamics in there and you're sorted

[W]

Do any of you actually wish to understand anything at all, or are you just interested in trading pretty words?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Tietäjä

It's interesting to know why, so you could know how and what, and if it really has some goal to aim to.

Why does life, or the universe, need justification or purpose other than that what it gives itself?

Originally posted by W
Do any of you actually wish to understand anything at all, or are you just interested in trading pretty words?

actually, I would enjoy learning nore of this.

What could you teach me, W?

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Tietäjä
So, Gayle, according to my wits too, to the law of relativity, you could have an object of 100 kg in 'normal' velocities (lower than c2) reduce mass if it had higher velocity (say 9, squareroot of wich would be 3, when the mass would be reduced to one third - but would it reduce size also?) dramatically decrease.


It's interesting to know why, so you could know how and what, and if it really has some goal to aim to.

I don't do relativity if I can possibly avoid it. My point was simply that if e=mc2 then m=e/c2.

[edit]Oh, and if the question is 'why?', the answer is almost invariably 'why not?'[/edit]

[W]

Originally posted by ÐiSCoRPoRaTioN
actually, I would enjoy learning nore of this.

What could you teach me, W?

Nothing.

Originally posted by W
Nothing.

That would be exactly what i'm looking for.
I'll have 3p's worth, please

Originally posted by W
Do any of you actually wish to understand anything at all, or are you just interested in trading pretty words?

you dont go to uni do you ?

[menth0l]

come on now, surely SOMEONE 'knows better' here?


I WANT TO SEE SOME DECENT FLAMING

God created all and has always been

[Cmdr_Cyrax]

Oh how easy it is to critisise. Right lets have the answer then.........

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
Oh how easy it is to critisise. Right lets have the answer then.........

Especially when you drop yourself in it that deeply

As for the answer, ask a theologian or a metaphysicist, anyone but me

you cannot know what a box is like from the inside.

we cannot discover the true nature of the universe from inside it.

[meglamaniac]

Good god, I go house hunting for a couple of hours and look what this turns into...

Thus is the fate of all meaningful discussion on GD.

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by Tietäjä
Where did it come from? Why?

Humans have a limited mind and cannot grasp the concept of infinity particularily well.

The hubris of humanity is, if we cannot grasp it, and it makes us uncomfortable, then it must NOT be so.

Before anyone answers where it comes from and why, you will have to explain to me why it needs to have come from somewhere, and why it needs to have a reason.

The standard answer "Well it HAD to start somewhere!" is not an answer.

we shouldnt really concern ourselves with such things. There are more important things to be done in life!

[acropolis]

Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
Oh how easy it is to critisise. Right lets have the answer then.........

You haven't asked a question yet. Anyway, I feared this thread was doomed from the moment it was entitled "existance". I like the subject tho.

Originally posted by Cocaine
we shouldnt really concern ourselves with such things. There are more important things to be done in life!

*cocaine goes back to wanking*

Originally posted by Tietäjä

So, IF everything was originated by a big bang, where did the mass that was released in big bang come from? If there was another universe before it, wich collapsed into a small point of extreme pressure and mass, and exploded causing a big bang, where did that universe come from? If there was a universe, was there intelligent life there?

wrong, all existance popped into place because they had too much magic in the uni so they decided to do the round world project
[quote]
If there was, is the meaning of the continuous 'heart beating' of the existance (bang, collapse, bang, collapse) just to see how long it takes for some highly developed race to appear and shut down the system and take control (in wich case I doubt humans are good enough)? Or is existance in general, or existance of intelligent life just a sum of random coincidences (lucky lucky), or a sum of a strict reaction that happens for each universe born and doomed to collapse?[quote]

it has been proven that the universe is god, and he dont even notice us, furthermore, he created us because he is us, thus we exist at his whim

[b]
If this direction is wrong, and the Universe was createn by some force beyond our understanding (God, A Spirit, or whatsoever), WHERE did it come from, and why did it decide to create something so meaningless, that would just bump and collapse? Just to have something to watch?[b]

my my, someones pretentious today arent we

Or is it all just an illusion? In this case, I want my personal system to be rebooted ASAP.

i think u need to be tested for drugs

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by Vermillion Jnr

I am not sure wheither to be flattered or horrified. I am currently working on a subtle mix of the two, leaning more towards the latter, with pinch of unnerved and a side dish of confused...

[starmog]

it all comes down to one thing...............




























































































WHICH CAME FIRST?






The chicken or The egg??? huh huh???

[W]

SNAP OUT OF IT!

[Tietäjä]

Vermillion, your junior version is adorable. He hasn't yet learned how to quote properly - better say, how to use vB codes properly, but he'll eventually catch it. I do think the lack of your wits makes him appear retarded though - he isn't yet at your level.


Btw, I'm very insulted at your jr version stuffing words into my mouth. I appear to have said something I really haven't when I read him quoting me. Go spank him now.

[Cyp]

UNN - Universal News Network

Large Conspiracy Uncovered! - Where is the wool? Textile company feeling sheepish.

A race of aliens once saw a planet full of adorable sheep. They started mining the sheep planet for wool. The previously only alien textile company was worried, because the new wool industry was undermining it's previous monopoly on textiles, so to prevent further damage to it's economy, it anonymously launched a big bang-class missile at the sheep planet, effectively shutting down the new competetive wool industry, and creating the big bang that we know of.

Clothing industries are not attempting an inquiry as to whether the textile company may be responsible, as they don't want to risk sanctions from the textile company. There are rumours that some clothing companies had smuggled some sheep for experimentation, prior to the big bang destroying the sheep planet, and may therefore be able to recreate the wool industry that was beginning to emerge, although it would be expected that the clothing industries would then retain a monopoly on wool production.

-Source: Conspiracies revealed
-©2002, UNN Universal News Network

Textile industry destroys wool.

[quote]
Vermillion, your junior version is adorable. He hasn't yet learned how to quote properly[quote]
however you may think you validate your own theories that i cannot as yet use the ability to quote, it is all in ur head, that dumbass theory, the leaning town of pisa, ignorance you name it.. its in there.

[quote] I do think the lack of your wits makes him appear retarded though - he isn't yet at your level.[quote]
does it make you feel as superior as Mister Ikari does to Shinji Ikari? as you sprout wings and fly with the faries so you can use words beyond your grasp, i refer of course to the word level. and its meaning in the oxford dictionary as: buttons on a telephone, most commonly called mice

Btw, I'm very insulted at your jr version stuffing words into my mouth. i am also homosexual and i would like a visit from dace

well i know where you get it form

[Fyodor]

I thought this fit
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all its contents. We live in a placid island of
ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant
that we should voyage far.The sciences, each straining in its own
direction,have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing
together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of
reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go
mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace
and safety of a new dark age."




H. P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu (1926)