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Unread 31 Mar 2008, 23:12   #1
ChubbyChecker
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Work place dilemma

Right, I have a little situation and I'm not sure what to do about it. First of all, let's introduce the characters in my little soap opera, in order of appearance:

The grizzled veteran: This girl has been working in my department since February 2007. Doesn't sound like a long time but of the five of us she's the old timer. She has also been given a promotion and will be leaving my department in 2 weeks time.

The dashing hero: This is me. I have been in the department since May 2007 and once the girl has gone that will make me the veteran.

The tortoise: This guy has been in my department since beginning of January 2008. He really had a slow start and really didn't seem to be going any where fast. Me and the grizzled veteran were telling my boss to sack him during his first two months here. Fair dues to him though, he really has improved over the last month and looks like he might be able to cling on long enough to finish his probation period.

Mr Dopey: He's been here since the beginning of March 2008, so almost exactly one month. He really is a bit thick but then the tortoise seemed thick during his first few weeks too. Of all the people this guy has the most reason to fear the chopping block. Luckily for him though he's too dopey to realise it.

The wide eyed doe: This is his second week here. He might be last off the starting block but he comes across as articulate and intelligent (something that the tortoise and Mr Dopey sorely lack). He also has the advantage of having worked in the food industry before. I work in the food industry by the way.

OK, so those are the players. As mentioned the grizzled veteran is leaving my department soon so there will only be 4 of us left. Problem though is that my boss has been told (and he has in turn told me, though nobody else) that 4 is unacceptable, 1 will have to be chopped to get us down to 3. The axe will have to fall some time within the next 2 months, that is the deadline.

You might be wondering why so many people were hired in the first place if one was going to be axed but let's just say that my company is not known for making intelligent decisions, especially with regards to recruitment.

Now, under normal circumstances I wouldn't be scared of being sacked. There is no way that I'd be got rid of when put up against this bunch of no hopers and dead beats. Also there is the convenient fact that all three of the Musketeers are still in their probation period (6 months) whereas I am not. For the benefit of those that don't know, you can sack someone easily while they are still in their probation period, once they've completed it things get a lot harder.

The real problem is that I plan to quit my job to go travelling at the end of July. So pretty much exactly 4 months from now.

So I guess the kindly thing for me to do would be to tell my boss that I plan to leave in 4 months anyway so he will only have 3 people left. Thing is though if he knows I'm leaving anyway he might not wait those 4 months and sack me now, or in 2 months time when the axe has to fall. I know I can't just get sacked for no good reason (employment laws and all that) but I guess he could make me redundant. I'm not too sure, haven't really studied it.

So, what do I do? Save the fresh meat from being put in the grinder or look after myself and make sure I don't get put out to pasture before the end of July? I'm not the kind of guy who would save someone's job at the cost of losing 2 months pay myself.

Legally I don't need to tell my boss anything until I hand him my letter of resignation and inform him of my 1 month's notice. Thing is though I like the guy and I want to help him plan ahead as well. He's a nice guy but he's also the kind of guy who would allow himself to be pressured by his superiors so I can't rely on him to look after my best interests either. I would also look a bit silly if he sacks someone and then pretty much exactly 1 month later I give him my resignation. Herein lies my problem.....
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Last edited by ChubbyChecker; 31 Mar 2008 at 23:33. Reason: typo
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Unread 31 Mar 2008, 23:19   #2
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Re: Work place dilemma

If they're incompetent it's in your bosses interest to get rid of them, therefore evaluate them and decide which one will not be as good for the company.

You do something for yourself and the company!
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Unread 1 Apr 2008, 01:07   #3
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Re: Work place dilemma

he won't sack you if you are out of your probation period when he has them that he doesnt need a reason to sack in case you make a fuss about it
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Unread 1 Apr 2008, 07:12   #4
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Re: Work place dilemma

Look after your own interests, unless you trust him enough to look after them for you. This is not the moral issue you make it out to be.
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Unread 1 Apr 2008, 12:46   #5
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Re: Work place dilemma

What is your job?
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Unread 1 Apr 2008, 14:00   #6
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Re: Work place dilemma

As somebody who is also thinking about a career break and traveling i would say - be selfish and don't tell your boss. You don't stand to gain anything but lose everything by being honest!

They are a business, not a friend or family so it's not like you are dropping a mate in it.

.......Unless after you finish traveling you intend to go back to this place and your area of employment is particularly hard to get back into?

Even then i would still say be selfish and put yourself first.
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Unread 1 Apr 2008, 22:50   #7
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
What is your job?
Like I said I work in the food industry. I don't really want to go into more detail about what type of company it is (I don't want to "do a horn" after all). I work in the Purchasing department, which means that we buy all the ingredients that go into our products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by r2baz
.......Unless after you finish traveling you intend to go back to this place and your area of employment is particularly hard to get back into?
It would be good if I could come back to my job. It's not a particularly good company but it would be nice to have something lined up for when I come back. And no, it's not hard to get back into this type of employment.

I would also like to get a good reference from my boss, something that he might not give me if I don't play my cards right.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 01:08   #8
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
It would be good if I could come back to my job. It's not a particularly good company but it would be nice to have something lined up for when I come back. And no, it's not hard to get back into this type of employment.
I can understand this. I asked my manager (as nonchalantly as i could ) how the company looked at long term "career break" time off. Their response was along the lines of - "well we can't stop anybody, and we don't like it, BUT we would look on it on a case by case basis depending on how you were as an employee and how long a break you were considering." Basically they won't promise squat. See if anybody in any part of the company has done it in the past? I don't know how long you intend to go for so it's hard to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I would also like to get a good reference from my boss, something that he might not give me if I don't play my cards right.
Maybe somebody better qualified than me could chip in here but i am not sure as to what actual information employers are asked for or (allowed to?) put in a reference. My employers basically asks for confirmation of dates of employment and sickness record. I don't think they are allowed to put stuff like "he dropped me right in the **** that one!" If you apply for another job you could always be up front and say look my old employer is unlikely to give me a good reference because X, Y, Z.

A mates sister recently did the round the world thing ,went back to her old job , but went back as the manager of the department she left! Basically because after she had traveled she was much more confident, experienced, outgoing, and knew the job well etc. So what you want to do is possible. Although she was obviously pretty lucky too working at a good place and keeping in touch as she traveled.

Unfortunately however, employers can be pretty pants in these situations and quite blind to the fact that if they supported you they may also benefit in the long run when you go back :/
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 09:33   #9
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Re: Work place dilemma

burn the building down
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 11:52   #10
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Re: Work place dilemma

Smudge is right. You either inconvenience your boss or cause the unnecessary unemployment of one of your colleagues. If you set the place alight the company will gain the insurance money, your colleagues will be made redundant, or at least they'll have something to talk about while the company rebuilds. Everyone loves a bonfire, too.

But personally I'd assess my boss's moral worth and if I find him lacking I'd fleece him and the company for all I could.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 15:01   #11
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by r2baz
Maybe somebody better qualified than me could chip in here but i am not sure as to what actual information employers are asked for or (allowed to?) put in a reference. My employers basically asks for confirmation of dates of employment and sickness record. I don't think they are allowed to put stuff like "he dropped me right in the **** that one!" If you apply for another job you could always be up front and say look my old employer is unlikely to give me a good reference because X, Y, Z.back :/
Employers can not say anything negative about you officially in an reference but something worded right or an outright refusal can be as bad as a negative reference.


On the issue, I would say tell your boss. I have done a fair bit of temping in my time and in pretty much all the longer term placements something like this has cropped up in the department. When people haven't told their superiors of their plans its become pretty bitter when it comes out and its potentially where you burn your bridges with the company for good. Those that have given warning to their superiors have actually found they become even more important to the company and I would say it pretty much guarantees you that your jobs safe (and your fellow workers jobs too, if ofc their work is good enough). The reason it makes you more important is you are removing the companies safety net, no matter how inexperienced the rest of the staff are theres little worry to push them on while your there, if they know your leaving they know they have 4 months to ensure you have passed on all your experiance and the others are ready to step up when you leave. It will also increase the liklyhood you will leave on good terms
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 17:37   #12
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Re: Work place dilemma

What exactly are your priorities here?
1) Get a good reference?
2) Get the possibility of getting the job back when you get home? (for how long will you travel?)
3) Something else?
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 19:34   #13
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Employers can not say anything negative about you officially in an reference but something worded right or an outright refusal can be as bad as a negative reference.
what?
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 20:46   #14
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
what?
What cant you simple little brain comprehend, or is it once again a case of your constant attempt to abuse me.

Either grow up or piss off
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 20:53   #15
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Employers can not say anything negative about you officially in an reference but something worded right or an outright refusal can be as bad as a negative reference.
well my only questions lie with the words highlighted above. To my eye you seem to be asserting that an employer (i am assuming here that you meant previous employer) is in some way (i am not sure how) stopped/constrained/'not allowed to' say anything negative about the (ex)employee.

I found your statement interesting because I find all new ideas interesting and by asking "what?" I had hoped you would explain what you meant.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 21:35   #16
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
What exactly are your priorities here?
1) Get a good reference?
2) Get the possibility of getting the job back when you get home? (for how long will you travel?)
3) Something else?
My primary objective is to not get sacked so that I have as much money as possible by the time I quit.
My secondary objective is to get a good reference.
My tertiary objective is to have a job lined up for me (in this company) for when I get back.

Way I see it the best way to complete my primary objective is to act as if everything is normal and then slap them with my special move (Super Upper Cut Resignation Letter Of Destruction) in three months time, by which time one of the newbies will have been sacked. Not that I care about them as such but it will probably piss my boss off as he will then have to go through the process of hiring someone new to replace me.

However taking this route will make my secondary and tertiary objectives harder to achieve, possibly impossible to achieve. Although I admit that the chances of achieving my tertiary objective are incredibly slim no matter which way I play it.

I'm going to be travelling for a year by the way.

I'm still not sure what to do. At the moment I'm leaning towards telling my boss but I'm still not sure if that's the best course of action. What I think I'll do is leave it til the end of this month then try to gauge it from there. I still have some time before he has to sack someone.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 21:54   #17
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Re: Work place dilemma

your leaving anyways so tell your boss your going , with plenty of notice he can find a suitable replacement so he should give you a good reference and there remains the possibility of re-employment with the same company
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 22:06   #18
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I'm going to be travelling for a year by the way.
(i'm so jealous - let us know your plans! hehe)

A lot could happen in a year. You may not want to go back and may try a change of career instead.

In a years time "all might be forgiven". There may be another boss by then?

From what you have said some of your priorities may be irreconcilable as you really don't seem confident that they will take your news well.

Another option would be to tell your current employer and if things go bad walk straight out of that office into a temping agency and say "I'll do anything for the next X months, i don't care i need the money". I have said that and i did a quick "keyboard test" and started temping within days. It was data entry but still it was money and it's not like you will be making a long term career out of it anyway.

That way you have solved your money (although maybe slightly less) and solved your ethical dilema by giving them months of notice.

On a last note, bosses sometimes make threats like this "I have to sack somebody" nonsense just to keep the troops in line I hope it is 100% that somebody will go....
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 22:06   #19
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Re: Work place dilemma

Are you sure your boss can fire you, if you tell? I don't the the british rules for such, but over here in Norway you could sue him to death if he did.

If he isn't stupid (or if you arent a bad worker) he most likely won't fire you. But you will come across as a mature and responsible worker who helps him out.
So Im with gzambo on this one.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 22:50   #20
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
well my only questions lie with the words highlighted above. To my eye you seem to be asserting that an employer (i am assuming here that you meant previous employer) is in some way (i am not sure how) stopped/constrained/'not allowed to' say anything negative about the (ex)employee.
I was under the impression that employers/ex-employers weren't supposed to say anything negative, too. They were just allowed to brush over the positives, and whoever read the reference had to read between the lines.
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Unread 2 Apr 2008, 23:05   #21
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
well my only questions lie with the words highlighted above. To my eye you seem to be asserting that an employer (i am assuming here that you meant previous employer) is in some way (i am not sure how) stopped/constrained/'not allowed to' say anything negative about the (ex)employee.

I found your statement interesting because I find all new ideas interesting and by asking "what?" I had hoped you would explain what you meant.
I did some work for a while at Citizens Advice an alot of people would come in about negative references and the advice given was almost always to take action against them. Data Protection laws mean both parties have to disclose what was said about you and in 99.9% of cases what can be said about you is little more than hearsay. I guess its not totally true that they cant say anything officially negative as you may have an official warning or simerlar on record that you would have signed but without something like that they cant prove the truth in what they are saying and even if something like is on your file most employers make the warnings null and void by following the wrong procedure so you can often argue that you were forced into signing it anyway so they probably won't raise it in most cases anyway as its not worth the hassle

Now I also worked in a HR department for a while and when it came to handing out references they for the very reasons above wouldn't say anything but confirm the person was employed and the dates because if they did and the references content then counted against the person the company would then be open to being sued on the basis of negligent misstatement'.

So basically unless they have documented evidence that will stand up in court of anything negative they say they are simply unable to say anything negative.
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 00:40   #22
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Re: Work place dilemma

You can tell your boss that you MAY be going to leave in four months. That you thought he ought to know that. That you won't be turning in your notice until the 1 month required as your plans could change. You don't have to go into great detail about WHY you MAY be (regretfully) leaving. It isn't really any of his business WHY you are leaving. Be mysterious if necessary.

They can't really dump you because you MAY leave. It isn't a lie because a lot can happen in 4 months and you MIGHT not be able to travel.

The boss gets the opportunity to see if he can extend the deadline to get rid of someone until the point where you make up your mind. Or, more likely, they may decide that one of the others aren't going to make it even if they could have ten people.
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 07:55   #23
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I did some work for a while at Citizens Advice an alot of people would come in about negative references and the advice given was almost always to take action against them. Data Protection laws mean both parties have to disclose what was said about you and in 99.9% of cases what can be said about you is little more than hearsay. I guess its not totally true that they cant say anything officially negative as you may have an official warning or simerlar on record that you would have signed but without something like that they cant prove the truth in what they are saying and even if something like is on your file most employers make the warnings null and void by following the wrong procedure so you can often argue that you were forced into signing it anyway so they probably won't raise it in most cases anyway as its not worth the hassle

Now I also worked in a HR department for a while and when it came to handing out references they for the very reasons above wouldn't say anything but confirm the person was employed and the dates because if they did and the references content then counted against the person the company would then be open to being sued on the basis of negligent misstatement'.

So basically unless they have documented evidence that will stand up in court of anything negative they say they are simply unable to say anything negative.
I think you've just proved my argument against a level law (or in your case 'a little law').

I'm glad that you now accept your original statement was wrong. Any chance of an apology for being rude to me?
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 10:38   #24
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Like I said I work in the food industry. I don't really want to go into more detail about what type of company it is (I don't want to "do a horn" after all). I work in the Purchasing department, which means that we buy all the ingredients that go into our products.
So you don't actually work with an real foods then?
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 12:33   #25
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I think you've just proved my argument against a level law (or in your case 'a little law').

I'm glad that you now accept your original statement was wrong. Any chance of an apology for being rude to me?
My original statement isn't wrong per say though, they are not allowed to just say anything negative against you for the sake of it or because of some grudge. And actually you say I have proved that A-Level law is pointless however I don't believe I have, even with a wirtten warning on file they have to provide a balanced reference however most people make it easy for the employer because they don't know their rights and as such allow the employer to force them into signing the warning without following the guidelines for warnings and not allowing them a chance to put a response on file. If people had a better idea of the laws relating to employment the employers wouldnt be able to be completely negative, infact if you have disputed the warning they probally won't even raise it.

Its certainly not wrong either based on what ChubbyChecker has said, he has basically stated he is a good employee, doesnt seem to have warnings and as such by quitting he cant then legally receive a negative referal

Oh and your get a apology when you stop harrashing me on posts, rep, pm's and ingame. Your a rude and obnoxious jerk , not just to me but to others also and you dont deserve an apology off anyone till you stop being so
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 14:50   #26
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Re: Work place dilemma

Ingame? lol.
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 19:31   #27
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by r2baz
(i'm so jealous - let us know your plans! hehe)....
The countries I will be going to are, in order:

Ecuador
Peru
Bolivia
Paraguay
Brazil
Argentina
Possibly Uruguay
Chile
New Zealand
Australia
China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Thailand
India

Quote:
Originally Posted by r2baz
Another option would be to tell your current employer and if things go bad walk straight out of that office into a temping agency and say "I'll do anything for the next X months, i don't care i need the money". I have said that and i did a quick "keyboard test" and started temping within days. It was data entry but still it was money and it's not like you will be making a long term career out of it anyway.

That way you have solved your money (although maybe slightly less) and solved your ethical dilema by giving them months of notice.
I have a good relationship with a couple of temp agencies in my area (I have worked for them before) but there is always the chance that they wouldn't find me anything for a while. Every day not working would be a day not earning. Also the money would most likely be quite a lot less than what I'm earning now. So temping really would not be a good move at this stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Are you sure your boss can fire you, if you tell? I don't the the british rules for such, but over here in Norway you could sue him to death if he did.
If he worded it as "He told me that he was going to quit soon anyway so I sacked him before he jumped" then yes, I could sue him to death, even here in Britain. He could make me redundant though , citing the fact that there are too many people in my department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
So you don't actually work with an real foods then?
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're asking if I actually touch the food then no, I don't. I leave that to the peasants.

I spoke to my boss today, and he said that he can hold off til the middle or possibly the end of May. So I told him not to make any decision before consulting me first and that we should talk about it at the end of this month, So I guess I now have a deadline to make up my mind about what to say.

Another thing, we have a new Factory Manager (my boss's boss) who I haven't met yet. So if I tell my boss what my plans are he might tell the Factory Manager. I don't know what he'd have to say about the whole thing. I will have to talk to him at some point before the end of the month to try to see what he's like.
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 23:15   #28
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
My original statement isn't wrong per say though, they are not allowed to just say anything negative against you for the sake of it or because of some grudge.
No one has to do anything. Because IF an employer makes a negative statement which is not factually true and that statement leads (causatively) to economic loss of the employee THEN that employer might be sued does not mean that the employer can't do it.

You missuse concepts left right and centre and accordingly you make mistakes. You do this because you only know a little law.

This is why you are living proof of my point on a level law.

Your crude attacks at me are simply embarrassing.

P.S. for the last time it is you're because you are conjoining two words 'you' and 'are'
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Unread 3 Apr 2008, 23:25   #29
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Re: Work place dilemma

How long are you going for and what are the projected costs?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 01:45   #30
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
No one has to do anything. Because IF an employer makes a negative statement which is not factually true and that statement leads (causatively) to economic loss of the employee THEN that employer might be sued does not mean that the employer can't do it.

You missuse concepts left right and centre and accordingly you make mistakes. You do this because you only know a little law.

This is why you are living proof of my point on a level law.

Your crude attacks at me are simply embarrassing.

P.S. for the last time it is you're because you are conjoining two words 'you' and 'are'
You are a complete and utter idiot aren't you. Pretty much every law we have is can be broken and even got away with if the person chooses and others let them. Yes the employee has to take action but the law is present to protect the employee and to prevent this tactic to be used. Its much like the way that you could go out and rape someone, an act which is clearly illegal and an act which you would do knowing full well it was illegal and wrong but if they choose not to report it then you would get away with it.

Just because people are stupid enough to listen to people like you that unless you are a qualified law professional that its a waste of time knowing your rights and as such let their rights be stomped over way too often doesnt change the fact there are laws in place to prevent negative references being handed out. And no matter how many times you try and claim otherwise that fact won't change,you don't need a law degree and the jumped up attitude that comes with the piece of paper to know that.

And you are living proof as to why more people need A-Level Law as we need more people knowing their rights rather than the blood sucking law professionals who will try and argue that black is white if it means sucking more money out of clients. The world would be a much better place if most people with a law degree could be rounded up and shot in the head rather than being allowed to stroll around making everything so much more complicated thus allowing more and more of the scum of the community to remain walking the street
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 01:50   #31
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Re: Work place dilemma

So angry.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 01:58   #32
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You are a complete and utter idiot aren't you. Pretty much every law we have is can be broken and even got away with if the person chooses and others let them. Yes the employee has to take action but the law is present to protect the employee and to prevent this tactic to be used. Its much like the way that you could go out and rape someone, an act which is clearly illegal and an act which you would do knowing full well it was illegal and wrong but if they choose not to report it then you would get away with it.

Just because people are stupid enough to listen to people like you that unless you are a qualified law professional that its a waste of time knowing your rights and as such let their rights be stomped over way too often doesnt change the fact there are laws in place to prevent negative references being handed out. And no matter how many times you try and claim otherwise that fact won't change,you don't need a law degree and the jumped up attitude that comes with the piece of paper to know that.

And you are living proof as to why more people need A-Level Law as we need more people knowing their rights rather than the blood sucking law professionals who will try and argue that black is white if it means sucking more money out of clients. The world would be a much better place if most people with a law degree could be rounded up and shot in the head rather than being allowed to stroll around making everything so much more complicated thus allowing more and more of the scum of the community to remain walking the street
wakey wakey wakey wakey wakey
wakey wakey stop being such a dick
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 02:05   #33
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You are a complete and utter idiot aren't you. Pretty much every law we have is can be broken and even got away with if the person chooses and others let them.
well it depends. you see some things are laws (as you see them), proscriptions I would prefer to call them, definate statements of "you can" or "you can't". We enforce these rather more vehemently.

But some other 'laws' (as you see them) are very much circumstance specific.

that is what I was trying to get you to see.

There is no ogre with a club standing next to employers saying "thou shalt not write a negative reference" and I feel that you understand that. What I wanted you to do was to push a little bit further. To ask questions. To try to tease out the complexity of simplicity.

I have enjoyed teasing you a little "all times I have enjoyed greatly, have suffered greatly". What I want to do, what would make me happy, is to make you think just a little bit (need only be a tiny bit) more.

P.S. darling please use you're.

PP.S - [23:56] <yahwe> who is this wakey chap? he seems rather fun, [00:09] <yahwe> i feel like adopting him, [00:10] <yahwe> to be fair he shows more resilience and actual passion than most of the undergrads i taught at (XXX)

(i mean you no harm)
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 11:23   #34
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Re: Work place dilemma

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Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The countries I will be going to are, in order:

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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 13:05   #35
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Re: Work place dilemma

I got bored of the yahwe-wakey argument but is the gist of it just that wakey said "employers can't write negative statements" when he should have written "employers shouldn't write negative statements"? Answers on a postcard to WHO THE **** ARGUES WITH YAHWE DON'T YOU KNOW IT'S LIKE PULLING TEETH?!, Surrey, United Kingdom.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 13:36   #36
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I got bored of the yahwe-wakey argument but is the gist of it just that wakey said "employers can't write negative statements" when he should have written "employers shouldn't write negative statements"? Answers on a postcard to WHO THE **** ARGUES WITH YAHWE DON'T YOU KNOW IT'S LIKE PULLING TEETH?!, Surrey, United Kingdom.
that would be okay if wakey hadn't spent the entire thread insisting that the former was actually correct and yahwe was a conceited fancy out-of-town lawyer type, the type we don't like
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 19:27   #37
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Re: Work place dilemma

I haven't read the wakey-yahwe arguement. I've not read any of yahwe's posts for about 2 months and I stopped reading wakey's posts after his second since he returned to the fore. I feel about 400% more virile than all of you.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 19:39   #38
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Your a rude and obnoxious jerk , not just to me but to others also and you dont deserve an apology off anyone till you stop being so
So that's pretty much a no then?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 19:41   #39
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Re: Work place dilemma

I wish I had a higher education like dda so I could read between the lines too :s
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 19:42   #40
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
.

P.S. [B}{U}for the last time[b][u] it is you're because you are conjoining two words 'you' and 'are'
I bet it isn't!
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 19:48   #41
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And you are living proof as to why more people need A-Level Law as we need more people knowing their rights rather than the blood sucking law professionals who will try and argue that black is white if it means sucking more money out of clients. The world would be a much better place if most people with a law degree could be rounded up and shot in the head rather than being allowed to stroll around making everything so much more complicated thus allowing more and more of the scum of the community to remain walking the street
Who would then be the living proof of the adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?
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Unread 11 Jun 2008, 20:43   #42
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Re: Work place dilemma

I figured that now's as good a time as any to revisit this thread. First I shall reintroduce the cast (see post 1 for clarification) :

The tortoise: A little bit older, not a lot wiser. He means well but I think it's fair to say that he isn't really up to the job. Fair play to him though, he's managed to get on my boss's good side which is part of the reason he's lasted this long. The main reason he's lasted this long is....

Mr Dopey: When I wrote the first post I really didn't realise how thick this guy really is. I don't just think he's inbred, I think the three previous generations of his family were too. He made a couple of stupid mistakes that made my boss decide to get rid of him. He didn't put up much of a fight though, he handed in his notice like the condemned man asking for his final cigarette. He left a couple of weeks ago.

The wide eyed doe: I had high hopes for this guy and he's lived up to them. He's not flawless by any means but I have faith that he will at least partially fill the large pair of shoes that I shall leave behind in my departure.

Speaking of departure, I've now booked my ticket and I shall be going off on my year long holiday on the 7th of August. I haven't decided for sure yet but my final day at work will probably be the 1st of August. I told my boss this two week's ago, so I have given him more notice than I legally needed to.

The company's now playing silly buggers though. They want me to hand my notice in now, even though I don't legally need to for another 3 weeks. The reason they are giving is because in order to find a replacement for me they need to have it in writing that I'm leaving.

My gut reaction is to say no and I'll give my notice in on the first of July. I am 100% sure that I want to go but if something happens over the next three weeks that means I can't go (like I break my leg for example) they've already got it in writing that I'm leaving. So should I buckle to the demands of the corporate oppressors or should I stand and fight to the last?
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 09:37   #43
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Re: Work place dilemma

No. Hand in your notice in the required timeframe as specified in your original contract.

Inform them that if they cannot find a replacement for you in a month, finding a replacement in 6 weeks is similarly silly.

Let them stew in their own juices, but be polite and do not irk them.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 19:17   #44
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Speaking of departure, I've now booked my ticket and I shall be going off on my year long holiday on the 7th of August. I haven't decided for sure yet but my final day at work will probably be the 1st of August. I told my boss this two week's ago, so I have given him more notice than I legally needed to.

The company's now playing silly buggers though. They want me to hand my notice in now, even though I don't legally need to for another 3 weeks. The reason they are giving is because in order to find a replacement for me they need to have it in writing that I'm leaving.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean.

You use the word 'legally' in an utterly incomprehensible way.

Have you resigned?

IF you haven't then your notice period hasn't started ticking down.
IF you have then your notice period will time out whenever the contract says it will time out and you will not be employed any more from that date (hence you will not be entitled to be paid)

Telling someone "I have a holiday booked" is not resigning.

IF the company is asking you to resign now because they suspect you are leaving then be very careful that they don't sack you.

I can not for the life of me understand why you would tell an employer that you are going to be leaving some time in the future.

Either resign or don't.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 20:19   #45
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Have you resigned?
Not yet. The issue is that they want me to hand my resignation in now stating that my last day will be the 1st of August (or possibly the 5th of August, I haven't decided yet). My contract states that I have to give 1 month's notice so they are asking me to give them more notice (in writing) than I am supposed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
IF the company is asking you to resign now because they suspect you are leaving then be very careful that they don't sack you.
On what grounds could they sack me now? You can't just sack someone because you want to sack them before they decide to quit.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 20:29   #46
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Not yet. The issue is that they want me to hand my resignation in now stating that my last day will be the 1st of August (or possibly the 5th of August, I haven't decided yet). My contract states that I have to give 1 month's notice so they are asking me to give them more notice (in writing) than I am supposed to.
Your contract will also state that they only have to give you one months notice period.

A letter from you stating your last day is as useful as a chocolate teapot.

They appear to be asking you to resign, which of course they can not do, unless of course they have grounds to sack you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
On what grounds could they sack me now? You can't just sack someone because you want to sack them before they decide to quit.
... I do not know what you have said to them, I however (unlike you) am conscious that there are legitimate reasons to sack people in this scenario.

You seem to be labouring under the illusion that you can never be sacked. Allow me to assure you that such an illusion is suicidal.

You may not be sacked.

But my question is why on earth have you put yourself in this situation in the first place?

Please see below for reference on how you should have done this:

Man A wishes to leave present job for year long holiday. Holiday is booked to start 7th August. Man A has contractual notice period of 1 month. Therefore Man A resigns (orally or by letter) on July 6th (to allow time to pack)
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 20:57   #47
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
But my question is why on earth have you put yourself in this situation in the first place?

Please see below for reference on how you should have done this:

Man A wishes to leave present job for year long holiday. Holiday is booked to start 7th August. Man A has contractual notice period of 1 month. Therefore Man A resigns (orally or by letter) on July 6th (to allow time to pack)
Thank you very much for your input Mr "I could have said this two months ago but I was too busy arguing with wakey to bother". As for why I told them before I needed to, I've mentioned my reasons in previous posts.

The point's pretty moot anyway seeing as the cat is out of the bag now. I think I'll just tell them that I'm not putting anything in writing until it's time to give them my one month's notice and let them suck on those apples.

I'd be very surprised if they did sack me now, not only would it be petty I am also pretty much indispensible at the present time (there are parts of my job that nobody else can do right now and there's no way I'd be in a sharing mood if I was sacked and working my notice period). Besides, they'd have to give me one month's notice (as Yahwe says, and as I have checked by rereading my contract) so I'd only miss out on a couple of weeks pay. Would give me time to chill out and organise my trip.
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 21:02   #48
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Re: Work place dilemma

the original post was rather long

besides you seemed to know what to do. the more important lesson is why didn't you do it?
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 21:41   #49
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the original post was rather long

besides you seemed to know what to do. the more important lesson is why didn't you do it?
I personally think I have done the right thing up til now. I will try to explain myself further than I have done even if it's only for my benefit:

My main concern when creating this thread was that by giving the game away they would have got rid of me seeing as the department was overstaffed and they needed to get rid of 1 person anyway. What changed though was that soon after this thread died it became abundantly clear that 1 of the people in my department was less than useless (Mr Dopey, for those of you keeping track) and he was got rid of a couple of weeks ago. So after he left the danger to me was greatly reduced seeing as getting rid of me at this point now means hiring (and training) a suitable replacement.

I also want to keep a good relationship with my current boss. Telling him before I need to means that he is more likely to remember me favourably. Best case scenario he offers me a job when I come back (he's already said that if he is still at the company when I come back he will try to make sure there is a job for me), failing that at least I can get a reference out of him.

I am also good mates with a number of people at my company and it's become increasingly difficult to keep this a secret from them. Not only that but the two guys in my department were talking about booking holidays in August, further piling on the pressure.

I have also been getting hot and heavy with a girl at my company and I felt I had to tell her before things get too serious. The only downside is that telling her would have meant that the whole company would have known about it within days (I actually told her last to make sure that people heard it from me first).

So the reduced risk of me being sacked as well as the professional / semi personal reasons I had for spilling the beans means that in my mind at least I have done the right thing. I can live with the worst case scenario of what happens next (even though it won't happen) and if anything I feel I have the moral high ground now and ultimately isn't that the most important thing?
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Unread 12 Jun 2008, 21:50   #50
Yahwe
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Re: Work place dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I personally think I have done the right thing up til now. I will try to explain myself further than I have done even if it's only for my benefit:

My main concern when creating this thread was that by giving the game away they would have got rid of me seeing as the department was overstaffed and they needed to get rid of 1 person anyway. What changed though was that soon after this thread died it became abundantly clear that 1 of the people in my department was less than useless (Mr Dopey, for those of you keeping track) and he was got rid of a couple of weeks ago. So after he left the danger to me was greatly reduced seeing as getting rid of me at this point now means hiring (and training) a suitable replacement.

I also want to keep a good relationship with my current boss. Telling him before I need to means that he is more likely to remember me favourably. Best case scenario he offers me a job when I come back (he's already said that if he is still at the company when I come back he will try to make sure there is a job for me), failing that at least I can get a reference out of him.

I am also good mates with a number of people at my company and it's become increasingly difficult to keep this a secret from them. Not only that but the two guys in my department were talking about booking holidays in August, further piling on the pressure.

I have also been getting hot and heavy with a girl at my company and I felt I had to tell her before things get too serious. The only downside is that telling her would have meant that the whole company would have known about it within days (I actually told her last to make sure that people heard it from me first).

So the reduced risk of me being sacked as well as the professional / semi personal reasons I had for spilling the beans means that in my mind at least I have done the right thing. I can live with the worst case scenario of what happens next (even though it won't happen) and if anything I feel I have the moral high ground now and ultimately isn't that the most important thing?
I never intended to attack you at all. And I apologise without reservation if it ever seemed from my posts that I did so. I am sorry.

You seem to be a very nice guy (i gather 'guy' is the modern term, i would rather call you a 'nice chap').

Because you are nice I think you have been caught up too much in trying to make the world as good as you are. My fear is that it won't live up to those expectations.

I am happy that whatever the outcome in practical terms of these events that you will not suffer in any real way.

All I would ask is that you indulge me, an old and no doubt useless buffer, and take some of my paranoia with you. May it protect you in the future when more may be at stake.

You knew the 'right' thing to do all along, although you felt unease with it. Let go of that unease for next time.
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