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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 00:47   #151
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Well when i first saw JBG's stats i was like... NOOOO please dont!!

But when i think back about the first rounds i played the stats where pretty simple aswell. Just 1 race and just 1 podclass. It was more about numbers then clean landings. And back then we had thousands of players and i really enjoyed the game.

Maybe its a nice addition to add cargo ships again? But they should cap more res then just 1 astroid.
Maybe SK's should be made more expensive? It sucks when it takes ages to build all those constructions back :P It makes less people build them so less people will be hit by it. Or just lower the destruction rate. Now its 15% i believe. Maybe 5% should be better? But as a compromise give it more xp if buildings are destroyed.
And as last and least. I remember in R3 we had something like a T3 who targetted all ships. (just random fire) It did just a little bit of damage but its some extra fun .

Maybe these 3 things give some extra diversety in the shipstats but still keep them simple as they are
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 09:10   #152
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
Agreed, xan wasnt the worst of, but it was far from the best race and far from balanced.
Xan were mediocre, and in terms of actual balance they were decent-ok, but when comparing them to the 2 other non-shit races they were clearly way under par.
Considering that xan were under-represented precisely ****ing nowhere in relation to their signup numbers I'd say that pretty much defines balanced (unless you want to claim that if one race is stronger then nothing else is balanced in which case you're basically saying nothing). As I said, they clearly weren't that badly off.
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 15:50   #153
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Re: R32 Shipstats

xans don't really look overpowered.
xans are always weak against heavy ships, how many xans will actually consider building shadows?

last round i went xan cruiser and i had no problem landing on other xans. most will always go fi/co bomber, wich leaves them open for terran bs and cath cr and even zik.
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 19:44   #154
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Re: R32 Shipstats

interesting stat set, i like xan in particular, being able to fake, but not different ship classes (like fr/de or cr/bs). a positive set forwards i think.

fi class SK thou? i would prefer to see xan without SK rather than one fi/co class, but having looked at targetting better fi class than co class. de looks quite good as the best alternative to going co/fi like everyone else.

i believe JBG made the stats, grats 'mate', or if someone else did them, equal kudos to them.
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 20:08   #155
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Firstly I really like the stats (how they´re developing) and I don´t mind if we keep them pretty much as they are.
BUT
If we´re gonna pick a set to use to build on for future rounds without the stats hoping about all over the place wouldn´t the following be sensible?
Xan to have fi pods and a potential frig fleet.
Etd to have frigs and BS
Cath co and cruiser
Terran de and BS
Zik de and cruiser
Wouldn´t this be a better and low risk base to build from - kinda standard but we all have plenty of experience working with the races in these formats.

The universe would probably be more balanced with probably a swing to the larger ships (which I believe makes the game better)

I´ll say it again
I am happy with how they are looking BUT just throwing this into the mix.
P.S. no to fi SK - god I hate SK - never use them never will HATE being hit by them
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 20:43   #156
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Re: R32 Shipstats

The main complaints I've had over sks seem to be from people who'd prefer them not to exist at all and are just protesting over something they perceive will bring them into the game more. As such the complaints aren't really over the stats per se in my opinion.

As regards a consistent set I disagree really. What I would do is have a bunch of stats sets we could switch back and forth between. Take the four most balanced recent stats sets and use those in rotation maybe tweaking them all a bit.
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 21:05   #157
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Take the four most balanced recent stats sets and use those in rotation maybe tweaking them all a bit.
I couldnt agree more.

Round 27 and round 30 is a set of stats i would like to play again
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 21:09   #158
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Re: R32 Shipstats

OH! and i forgot to ask you the "oh btw!" question JBG.

Why are you saying that you would like SKs to be removed when you are making it to a contest in ASC for round 32 to destroy most structures?
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 21:30   #159
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I said I didn't really care (I'd appreciate it if you actually read my posts). Personally I'd prefer to see sks as a bigger part of the game, more depth is generally a good thing, but it's a relatively minor issue.

In terms of next round, considering the fact I'm not a complete moron, I imagine I can think up something else to spend my time doing.
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Unread 18 Jun 2009, 22:20   #160
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I just missed you in the pa-stats chan JBG, i actually have a few suggestion which i would like to discuss with someone who doesnt instantly shout at me and make me feel like im discussing with monkeys on speed. (#pastats)
Im not saying my suggestions are right, but perhaps a bright mind can elaborate on what i say and voila! we have a better solution.
power in communications!

Ultimately you and cochese makes the decission, but there is nothing wrong with taking feedback.

So how can we make this happen?
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 08:54   #161
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Yo JBG,

i had a real good look at the stats last 2 days and I must say, they are pretty damn balanced. Every fleet/race has its ups and downs like it should be. Dont listen to all the bitching from everyone else and keep the stats thisway!

Even though it brings some action into the game, i am afraid for the xan fi SK

Anyway, good job JBG
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 09:00   #162
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanzi
So how can we make this happen?
I'm in #pastats a fair bit (whenever I'm on irc and remember to join the channel).
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 10:30   #163
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I feel that the stats with structurekillers in the attackfleets will just alienate a lot of the players who dislike structurekillers even more than before. Structurekillers have been the issue of huge debates before, and have also been the discussion for much pa team interventions.

Last time structurekillers got modified down to 10% since cov-ops were far more dangerous against structures, and there has also been debates before about structurekillers in attackfleets.

Everyone was happy with how structurekillers were not put in attackfleets before, but now you put them back in, thus causing a lot of people to even contemplate not playing a round with them as it is now.

Now, you can argue the merits of the structurekillers till your face turns blue and Light starts to look attractive, but the end of the line is that there are many players who clearly dislike them, and don't want them to be an "active" part of the gameplay. Before, if you want to use structurekillers it requires something extra of you to use them. And people were atleast content with that situation. So please reconsider instead of alienating people with this suggestion and put it back to the way it has been.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 10:37   #164
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Re: R32 Shipstats

The situation has barely changed at all. You still have to research hulls 3 and thanks to multi-targetting most attacks the last few rounds were composed of both classes, fr/de or cr/bs and therefore there was no logical reason to exclude sks. People didn't build them because lots of people just don't build sks. To me this is just another hilarious example of people's ability to make mountains out of molehills when it comes to the stats.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 10:48   #165
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
The situation has barely changed at all. You still have to research hulls 3 and thanks to multi-targetting most attacks the last few rounds were composed of both classes, fr/de or cr/bs and therefore there was no logical reason to exclude sks. People didn't build them because lots of people just don't build sks. To me this is just another hilarious example of people's ability to make mountains out of molehills when it comes to the stats.
But do you _really_ think that planetarion can afford making a change like that? The other reason why people don't build structurekillers is because they've been in a secondary shiptype that with losses the structurekillers most likely have no effect, now we will see compact one type attackfleets. In addition to that summer rounds tend to be low defense rounds and with the structurekillers avaliable to people to build in primary attackfleets they will build them. Some alliances will encourage their members to in war time, and when those war ends, and people go back to normal gal raiding, do you think they will leave the structurekillers out of their attackfleets?

I honestly think you're on the wrong path here JBG, but I know that you wont change your mind, and that the real deciders in this matter have to be the PA team, and to them I can only say that there will be a lot of people disliking the stats as they are now.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 11:03   #166
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I would change my mind. I specifically said that this was something I'd go with the flow on. I've seen as many, if not more, people saying it's a good thing or at least something worth trying out as I have seen saying it's a bad thing. Given that sks have before been part of attack fleets and hundreds of people didn't quit I don't think it'll be that relevant. The only thing likely to make people even think about them more is posts like yours insisting that they'll destroy the game!
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 13:56   #167
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Re: R32 Shipstats

ok well atleast make 1 change immediately please.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uukizznb3shks6p

You cant seriously have given ETD only 1 anti DE/FR with that in mind.



what i meant with small fleets is that they have to choose between losing value and losing roids.
if they keep 10k tycoons home to defend against 20k tycoons it will cover it, but you will lose some roids.
It most likely will be totally worth it for the attacker to lose 20k tycoons for those roids in XP.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=c7wxx24qeqzpyb8


Ofcourse this will be easily defended by a fleet from a different planet (not etd), but it still waste a fleetslot, so i think etd could have a second ship targetting de/fr
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 14:07   #168
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
ok well atleast make 1 change immediately please.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uukizznb3shks6p

You cant seriously have given ETD only 1 anti DE/FR with that in mind.

Though it might make me consider being ETD, steal some Demeters and 3 fleet attack other ETDs all day long with small fleets.

vultures die, but demeters will live and steal roids
lol quite a funny bcalc, looks like defending vs ETD will be really easy.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 14:25   #169
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Yet again I will state that unify all etas to Frig based eta, will cut out the "lets go xan because of quick eta" idea.

Would that screw over the current stats? Maybe, but then the Xan FI ST Killer is viable in that class.

EDIT: And wtf is the haunt doing with ZERO EMP resistance?
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 14:33   #170
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
EDIT: And wtf is the haunt doing with ZERO EMP resistance?
Go over this thread and point out anybody else who spotted that.. then ask yourself 'have all these people that are arguing about balance or SK's even looked at the stats?' As you're the only person to spot that so far

P.S. Its due to the way EMP works
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 15:11   #171
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
Yet again I will state that unify all etas to Frig based eta, will cut out the "lets go xan because of quick eta" idea.
What would be the point of that? The whole idea behind xan is having fast ships, with light armor, high damage and cloak. Take away one of those and xan won't be xan anymore.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:11   #172
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Re: R32 Shipstats

i like how you took stealing away from marauder and gave them a lower init. hated when i lost marauder in stealing fri/de heh.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:19   #173
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I have to say, these are probably the most interesting stats I've seen in a long time. I love it. I wasn't sure whether to play this round, but after having looked at the stats I don't think I can't!

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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:22   #174
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
ok well atleast make 1 change immediately please.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uukizznb3shks6p

You cant seriously have given ETD only 1 anti DE/FR with that in mind.



what i meant with small fleets is that they have to choose between losing value and losing roids.
if they keep 10k tycoons home to defend against 20k tycoons it will cover it, but you will lose some roids.
It most likely will be totally worth it for the attacker to lose 20k tycoons for those roids in XP.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=c7wxx24qeqzpyb8


Ofcourse this will be easily defended by a fleet from a different planet (not etd), but it still waste a fleetslot, so i think etd could have a second ship targetting de/fr
That's awesome. I actually had no idea the combat engine worked that way and assumed that the ships that would die stealing on def would be the same ones that got stolen by the attacker. I could switch the armour/damage on the tycoon and that should address the problem with tycoon+pods only "suicides". I don't think that's that big a problem though. The idea that if I manage to send my 50k coons against your 100k coons I only lose 10k and you lose 200k value if you don't run your ships is pretty ****ing retarded though.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:24   #175
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Go over this thread and point out anybody else who spotted that.. then ask yourself 'have all these people that are arguing about balance or SK's even looked at the stats?' As you're the only person to spot that so far

Since I stopped posting because I figured I'd just let you fools have your fun and exploit the crap out of the stats for the real round instead of trying to improve balance:

Session Start: Wed Jun 17 15:56:31 2009
[16:04:21] <Psii> looks like very minor changes to ships and SK's changed a lot
[16:05:44] <Psii> haunt have 0 emp'r, so bad
[16:05:50] <Psii> why are they letting him do stats
[16:07:27] <*****> !eff 1k def
[16:07:28] <*****> 1,000 Defender (3,380) freeze -Haunt 8,000 (72,000)

Quote:
P.S. Its due to the way EMP works
P.S. No, that's not the way EMP should work.

I was fine with the insane costs to move people off them.
I was fine with the extremely low armor to make them unwanted
But at least give them 10 or 15 EMPr, I can see why you thought 0 was fine, but if the other ships are 90/80/80/80 you're doing it an injustice for Xan.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:31   #176
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
But at least give them 10 or 15 EMPr, I can see why it's 0, but if the other ships are 90/80/80/80 you're doing it an injustice for Xan.
Heh, this is utterly irrelevant. So utterly irrelevant you clearly don't have a ****ing clue what you're talking about. Giving them an e/r of 10 would just mean they're 10% less likely to get frozen. An e/r of 20 means they're 20% less likely to get frozen. Their e/r is like that so in the actual game it won't be excessively hard to emp them. I could raise it back to like 30 or 40 or something but in reality this really doesn't make that much difference.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:39   #177
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Heh, this is utterly irrelevant. So utterly irrelevant you clearly don't have a ****ing clue what you're talking about. Giving them an e/r of 10 would just mean they're 10% less likely to get frozen. An e/r of 20 means they're 20% less likely to get frozen. Their e/r is like that so in the actual game it won't be excessively hard to emp them. I could raise it back to like 30 or 40 or something but in reality this really doesn't make that much difference.
Man I'm going to love the end of this round.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 16:41   #178
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
Man I'm going to love the end of this round.
Hopefully it'll involve you deleting your account and never returning to PA.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 17:18   #179
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I had to make some changes due to forgetting how the combat engine works as hanzi reminded me above. As such http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats

I haven't received a request for final stats from appoco yet but once someone asks me I can make them final within an hour or so.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 17:21   #180
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Re: R32 Shipstats

with the issue of structure killers in in an attack fleet, i would do it for all races then, not only xan
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 17:24   #181
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Donar View Post
with the issue of structure killers in in an attack fleet, i would do it for all races then, not only xan
I have.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 17:31   #182
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Re: R32 Shipstats

So nice that people take a moment to actually look at the stats before posting. No, really, you're helping a lot
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 18:01   #183
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
Session Start: Wed Jun 17 15:56:31 2009
[16:04:21] <Psii> looks like very minor changes to ships and SK's changed a lot
[16:05:44] <Psii> haunt have 0 emp'r, so bad
[16:05:50] <Psii> why are they letting him do stats
[16:07:27] <*****> !eff 1k def
[16:07:28] <*****> 1,000 Defender (3,380) freeze -Haunt 8,000 (72,000)
The haunt got changed to 0 emp def, due to a bug in the EMP combat engine which allowed something to happen which shouldnt. Its not the ideal solution, however, it is the only solution.

Quote:
P.S. No, that's not the way EMP should work.
What does 'Should' have to do with anything? JBG is designing the stats, not the combat engine.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 18:03   #184
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I changed it to 20 as the calc didn't seem to **** with it anymore. It's really not that relevant though. If you had tried a realistic combat scenario under the previous iteration instead of using an !eff you'd have seen that quite easily.
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 19:50   #185
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Re: R32 Shipstats

If you really believe that the change to SKs is minor then you've disappointed me.

If SKs are the same class as the main attack fleet then every attack that lands will kill structures - is that truly what we want to happen?

(It's certainly not what I want to happen).
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Unread 19 Jun 2009, 21:17   #186
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I'm pretty angry that my suggestion got completely ignored though JBG. I thought you'd pay more attention to the people and their needs.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 00:00   #187
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
but once someone asks me I can make them final within an hour or so.
please make them final
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 19:03   #188
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Stats in beta will be the final stats for the game (excluding the sks which may still be changed and currently will be) pending approval of cochese.
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Unread 20 Jun 2009, 19:10   #189
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Stats look good, sk's will get changed whenever JBG sobers up!
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 04:40   #190
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Re: R32 Shipstats

ETDs look like they've been made bad on purpose with the intent of dropping them next round coz nobody will play them as they are. I really think there was a way to make them a decent race to play... starting by giving them 1 more kill ship and 1 less emp. An Etd should be able to kill every class of ships, steal 1 meta class, emp 1 or 2 meta class.
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Unread 21 Jun 2009, 13:00   #191
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Re: R32 Shipstats

What makes ETD so bad?
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 16:42   #192
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Is the Bomber's ERes intentionally the highest of the Frigates? (was surprised to see it was better than the Buccs, Xan usually has lower ERes than Ter/Zik)
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Unread 22 Jun 2009, 16:48   #193
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Is the Bomber's ERes intentionally the highest of the Frigates? (was surprised to see it was better than the Buccs, Xan usually has lower ERes than Ter/Zik)
Yes. I felt with no flak and being targetted by everything before it fires it could do with it for some balance.
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 15:12   #194
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
ETDs look like they've been made bad on purpose with the intent of dropping them next round coz nobody will play them as they are. I really think there was a way to make them a decent race to play... starting by giving them 1 more kill ship and 1 less emp. An Etd should be able to kill every class of ships, steal 1 meta class, emp 1 or 2 meta class.
I m gonna go ETD just to proove once again that I rock! ( not looked at stats yet )

( dont FC me this round guys <3 )
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 17:12   #195
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Re: R32 Shipstats

With the race stats atm, I think etd looks like the best choice. So not sure that would prove anything. Depends abit how many caths are going cr instead of co (I would imagine a 50/50 ratio here). Zik would be stronger if we had more xans (more flak for their fi/co/fr), but looks like cath will dominate the top again, with ter/etd being the last to get roided
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 18:01   #196
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Re: R32 Shipstats

You are right, I dont have to proove that!

And ye, looked at it, and sticking with etd. Probably DE as that looks hardest to roid. ( DE / tycoon ) Nice teamups with ter DE also. Gonna be a bitch to stop
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 10 Jul 2009, 07:20   #197
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Re: R32 Shipstats

youve made etd exactly what i always wanted for zik, awesome
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Unread 13 Jul 2009, 08:40   #198
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I have not touched or looked at these stats. My main question is whether zik are vaguely playable. If they are, then I'd contend then you'ld have a good set of stats as the other races aren't overly dominant.
Zikonians seem fine. At first glance, it appears as if though Eitrades was hilariously overpowered though, they're in serious need of some nerfbat. Also, buff terrans.
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Unread 13 Jul 2009, 09:56   #199
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Zikonians seem fine. At first glance, it appears as if though Eitrades was hilariously overpowered though, they're in serious need of some nerfbat. Also, buff terrans.
yet etd is by faaaaar the race fewest went... of the current 1674 planets only 160 are etd. You also lack any sort of fake options as etd tbh, but yes I agree that etd is good this round.
With my shit activity I find myself in top50 value somehow. ( 19 etd in top 100 value, 10 in top50 )

ter doesnt need a buff tbh. ter de is strong.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 14 Jul 2009, 16:22   #200
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Faking has been dead since the new multitargeting system.

Also, I didn't look at the stats, these were just educated guesses.
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