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Unread 17 May 2009, 16:57   #1
Cochese
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r32 ship-stat suggestions

If anyone wants to take a crack at a set of stats for next round, post them here. I know a few were thrown out in the other thread, but I'd like to have a separate thread solely for next round.

This won't necessarily be a "design by committee" situation, but rather a starting point for people to put their ideas out there where some of the more seasoned players will be able to contribute through (hopefully) constructive criticism.

We'll see how it goes for now.
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Unread 17 May 2009, 18:33   #2
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Before anyone even starts thinking about stats, they should first of all clarify PA team's thoughts on Governments, Race bonus' and Salvage for next round. As all three of these will have an impact on any stats made.
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Unread 17 May 2009, 18:47   #3
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I would like a vote for all the previous stats since etd was introduced!
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Unread 17 May 2009, 20:18   #4
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Can we not just keep these stats with a few tweaks to balance them?
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Unread 17 May 2009, 20:32   #5
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
I would like a vote for all the previous stats since etd was introduced!
such a vote will never portray previous stat-sets accurately, simply because you cant compare your exact and thorough knowledge of a set (all ins and outs, taking into consideration what races ppl picked in that certain round, alliance that ruled a round which influenced the opinion etc etc) that you played 2 years or even a year ago to the knowledge you have of this rounds set or maybe dating back 1 or 2 rounds.

For instance, i was reading back some very old text messages in my phone today and saw an outgoing message of myself mentioning stalwarts. First moments my memory was completely blank about that ship, after looking at the date of the message and careful thinking back I remembered them being part of the etd's fleet in round 27 or 28 (or was it both?) and that it was a big ship, but still dont know if etds had cr or bs that round.
So back to your request: How would i be able to vote for that old set of stats properly? I think I would let old forum threads about stats pre-round and after-round and personal fun i had in a certain round be my main factors to determine the value but thats not what you want to survey is it?

A better idea is to make an overview of each round stats, and all combine our memories of each set and add most important factors or things that unbalanced and/or made it more balanced. This would be a nice tool for future creators and saves us from repeating old mistakes or lets us exploit the good things that came with it

Ill try to post some suggestions later, in order to come on topic again
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Unread 17 May 2009, 21:07   #6
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
Before anyone even starts thinking about stats, they should first of all clarify PA team's thoughts on Governments, Race bonus' and Salvage for next round. As all three of these will have an impact on any stats made.
Three gold stars for Game, for "getting it".

Salvage will be changed. Maybe not where it was last round, but perhaps split the difference. Still looking at those 'Salvage Centres' btw.

mz made a (private) suggestion about Government bonuses that is really interesting...maybe he'll post it publicly as (I think) it's pretty cool. It goes more with "a government for different ways of playing" (offensive/scanner/covop/support/misc) that's fairly in-line with what I think they should be.

Race bonuses...haven't had any suggestions or comments from the Dev team on. I think they're too "bland" and could use some input, but haven't seen anything yet. Suggestions forum awaits!


As for stats themselves, I thought JBG's stats from last round were really interesting, especially having a lot more potential variety in attack fleets with the extra pod.


Bottom line as I see it, it's your game. Comments ahoy.
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Unread 17 May 2009, 21:38   #7
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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Originally Posted by Tomkat View Post
Can we not just keep these stats with a few tweaks to balance them?
So pretty much a new set of stats then....

This round is all Fi/Co, with a little Fr/De, there's no way we could just "tweak" them to balance them.
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Unread 18 May 2009, 00:08   #8
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I'd go with last round's stats with a few tweaks (harpy targetting, broad t3 removal and slight reduction in scorpion efficiency)
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Unread 18 May 2009, 00:46   #9
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

would need pretty big changes to both terran and zik to compensate for different salvage rates. Means it may well be easier to make a totally new set rather than rebalance an old one.
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Unread 18 May 2009, 02:34   #10
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I have been working on a set of stats which a few people have looked at (for next round, or a future one). I have not done damage or armour numbers yet due to not seeing if salvage would be changed - plus that tweaking is better done with some form of a calc handy. if anyone would like for me to post a link, or would like to look at them and give some input - feel free to contact me on IRC.
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Unread 18 May 2009, 19:21   #11
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

anti-fi/co bs, not a strong one.. but atleast able to kill 2/5 of it's own value.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 05:01   #12
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

If I have any say in the matter, I would prefer to return to more attack oriented stats. The stats the last couple of rounds have left very few options other then massive team ups to take on the bigger players, and I for one find it rather boring.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 07:55   #13
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

If anything thats a salvage change, and this round is certainly the attacking round. There is no point defending big teamups that crash (like DLR)
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Unread 20 May 2009, 20:19   #14
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
mz made a (private) suggestion about Government bonuses that is really interesting...maybe he'll post it publicly as (I think) it's pretty cool. It goes more with "a government for different ways of playing" (offensive/scanner/covop/support/misc) that's fairly in-line with what I think they should be..
No, I won't be posting them here, largely because I do not trust the judgement of the average PA player, or even that of the average PS/SD visitor. Should you want to change governments for next round, then I'd strongly recommend finding a few intelligent people and asking their opinion.

That said, if you feel posting it here helps the discussion, feel free.

(Sorry for the late response by the way, I rarely check this forum.)
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Unread 20 May 2009, 22:52   #15
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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No, I won't be posting them here, largely because I do not trust the judgement of the average PA player, or even that of the average PS/SD visitor. Should you want to change governments for next round, then I'd strongly recommend finding a few intelligent people and asking their opinion.
So who, other than the average PA player can best judge a change to the game? (this is in no way snipe, just a genuine question). Would it not be better to air it and listen to positives and negatives?
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Unread 21 May 2009, 00:38   #16
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Heartless would be the first person I'd approach with something like this, followed by Cochese and Appocomaster. Generally speaking, people who've shown they understand the game well enough to look beyond the end of their noses.

As for why posting it here does harm, in my opinion "the powers that be" are too attached to keeping the community happy, even if that means offering things that are cool in the short run but counter-productive in the long run. I'd rather the average PA player gets as little chance to steer the game in the wrong direction as possible. That's why I prefer discussing this sort of thing on the dev forums, because I know they're mostly frequented by reasonable and intelligent people.

I'm such an elitist prick.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 01:39   #17
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I think the absolute ****ing disaster that this round's stats have turned out to be have adequately demonstrated the problems of letting every person who doesn't get stats at all have some input into the situation. The amount of time that was wasted on meaningless shit while basically ignoring the largest change since multi-targetting was reintroduced (that being the halving of salvage) shows how hilariously clueless most people really are.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 04:32   #18
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
I'd go with last round's stats with a few tweaks (harpy targetting, broad t3 removal and slight reduction in scorpion efficiency)
I take it you played ter CR r30?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
If I have any say in the matter, I would prefer to return to more attack oriented stats. The stats the last couple of rounds have left very few options other then massive team ups to take on the bigger players, and I for one find it rather boring.
+1

The games now all about teamups if you want to land, which isnt encouraging for new/semi active players.

Imo stats need to be fun, (read offensive,) not a test of calcing endurance, which its been for the past few rounds.

Im more than willing to help out with stats if anyone is interested.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 04:59   #19
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

If anyone wants I can reactivate #pastats if you guys want to have conversations regarding this. Find me on NG (#support is always a good place to look) and I can set it up.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 07:19   #20
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

stats are alright, just needs 1-2 fi class killships anti fi/co other than the locust
beets having t1 co, when all other eta 7 ships anti fi are co..just isnt the best idea. Then add an awesome killship as fi for the cath..and suddenly it just gets close to impossible to cover
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Unread 21 May 2009, 08:09   #21
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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stats are alright
http://sandmans.co.uk/?p=racestats
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Unread 21 May 2009, 08:55   #22
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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then I added corrections, which would have changed alot. that being said, I dont get why ter aint doing better, spose not many competent people went ter
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Unread 21 May 2009, 10:31   #23
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

i am working at a set of stats atm (still)
trying to implement some new things

however if someone from PA Crew would make an approach to me telling, the set looks ok, lets try with this

id want only a few ppl "working" the changes
ppl like jbg and gate who did stats before
maybe have an irc channel then

ofc public discussions are ok, but i dont want to run around and change this and then that, just cause someone dislikes a point, id want to discuss possible changes with the team i suggested and change it then/or not

another point, the creator of stats should have some more influence on the game mechanics, like race boni, salvage % etc

so either PA Crew comes up early with what they plan, or they leave it to the guy/team makin the stats

the predesigned set should be rdy by monday (basic set, with targets and classes) ill post it here, or probs make another thread about it

atm i am planning with the current salvage percentage and i will try to have the set working for 2 possibilities to play each race, 2 good ones.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 12:09   #24
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

We rather do not have you near any set of stats though morpheus. I mean, you prolly still think the 'cruiser' is to go on vacation with.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 12:15   #25
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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I mean, you prolly still think the 'cruiser' is to go on vacation with.
LOL, next you'll be telling me there's no such thing as the tooth fairy...
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Unread 21 May 2009, 12:54   #26
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

id prefer ship stats tested before round ends so we have smaller break between rounds as i end up signing up for a gazillion games while waiting for pa to restart just a suggestion of course
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Unread 21 May 2009, 12:56   #27
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

stats do not have to be 'tested' you know. you can pretty much run all these things through excel and predict stuff. (you dont even need excel). Betatests as we call them are nothing but incrowd elitist speedgames where a lot of people cock about and those actually wanting to test stuff are called abusers.

That said I think it says it in Newts signature about PA Team being upset about multiing or accountsharing in the betatest. I mean, who the **** cares?
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Unread 21 May 2009, 13:44   #28
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I'm surprised noone has written a program that can import the stats for each race and tell you how balanced they are. Would have to run a lot of battle simulations to see that..but a computer could do it better than a human biased in races.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 13:47   #29
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
I'm surprised noone has written a program that can import the stats for each race and tell you how balanced they are. Would have to run a lot of battle simulations to see that..but a computer could do it better than a human biased in races.

you just need a basic heuristic though. there are only so many viable fleetcombos after the first set of analysis. those fleetcombos you then run through a resource efficiency matrix again and voila. (and yes this could yield into a multi dimensional matrix, but who gives a ****, it could be layed out pretty neatly)


multidimensinoal matrix is just a collction of vectors but still!
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Unread 21 May 2009, 18:58   #30
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

the efficiency analysis is where most the information is at.. plus the in game bcalc during beta when the stats set is loaded..
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Unread 22 May 2009, 07:17   #31
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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we rather do not have you near any set of stats though morpheus. I mean, you prolly still think the 'cruiser' is to go on vacation with.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 05:31   #32
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

if we want to attract more players - atleast in projecting the game less complicated part. Let's start by going back to 4 races, heck even 3.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 06:29   #33
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

removing etd is the best suggestion ive heard!
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Unread 23 May 2009, 16:25   #34
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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I think the absolute ****ing disaster that this round's stats have turned out to be have adequately demonstrated the problems of letting every person who doesn't get stats at all have some input into the situation. The amount of time that was wasted on meaningless shit while basically ignoring the largest change since multi-targetting was reintroduced (that being the halving of salvage) shows how hilariously clueless most people really are.
Salvage is easy to fix.. basically that's completely PA teams fault. They do what they want, some players tinker with planning stats.. and got it wrong.. then PA team does the salvage thingy.. and it goes completely wrong as neither balanced eachother out.

7 week round.. crappy salvage, u can't even land on a target if he stays home with non-emp race or your out of top spots. So you have to be a cathaar.. and surprisingly cathaar has the best stats and resource efficiency.. and it has kill ships. Oh yeah no comments about cr/bs either.. their just a epic fail been since whatever round.

Frigging incredible mess, and to top it all, we saw it before the first tick even started... and nothing was done about it not even rechecked if the concerns where right.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 21:35   #35
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I like the current stats. Making a new set of stats generally results in unbalance and so it also did this round. I think they are a good basis for the next round.

This set has some changes compared to other rounds:

1. Terrans lost one of their special traits: their high emp resistance. (Cath fi having better emp resistance than Ter Co?!) They got nothing back for it. I think Terrans need their emp resistance improved or get another improvement.

2. Cathaar got kill ships in their attack fleet to scare off defence, making it easier for them to land attacks. This is a change I did like. Make the Scorpion target De/Fr/Co and change the Mantis then to target Cr/Bs/De.

3. Cathaar got slightly higher emp efficiencies than usual. This wasn't necessary since they got (2). So nerf them a bit.

4. The change in salvage weakened especially Zikonians. I'm not sure they really are all that weak. Maybe increase salvage a little bit again. I didn't really dislike lower salvage though.

5. Another change was the extra podclasses. It worked allright. Not sure Etd really needed Fr and De pods, since i often saw them attack with Fr+De.

The main work that has to be done is the emp efficiencies and resistance. This was really done poorly imo.

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Unread 24 May 2009, 09:47   #36
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

I hate these stats, I mean, at the moment there are 0 ziks or ters in the top 50. Cathaar is obviously overpowered wit these stats, the locust is a really annoying ship in my book, it is far to hard to roid them.

The worst thing with these stats is that the salvage was reduced though, something which was not accounted for in these stats making zik(and ter?) unplayable.
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Unread 24 May 2009, 10:43   #37
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

The problem this round was Cath was made ridiculous. Making the Locust a fi instead of CO like every other race this round was stupid. They have 5 DE's. and fleets are 2nd targeted by everything. So not only do they emp 1st, they also take 60% damage.

Zik and terran got royally screwed by the salvage which needs to be changed back. It makes defending really hard this round. The only reason that Salvage became a problem is because people abused it.

Also giving 3 races Viable fi/co fleets was stupid to start with. IF you are going to give them out either make 2 races have them or give it to all races. No reason that etd and zik shouldnt have fi/co fleets. Same thing with Cr/bs either 2 races should get Cr/bs fleets or all of them should, either way it would be easier to play.

The whole thing about PA trying to attract new members this round is stupid. Its not working the Stats do not allow for single players to attack or defend at all. They have to be in an alliance.

I do like the suggestion about making gov's more based around planet build , Cov op, scanning, attacking, defending etc... Also the race stats should include other bonuses not just const/research/stealth/production. Find something else, add mining bonus's, or something.

As for Ship stats, I think a new set of stats is in order, one that give each race the same amount of appeal, give them all the same # of ships, give them all fleets of each ship type. Keep emp/steal/cloak to there respective races. And stick to the race themes, Ter: Big ships low init, Cat Small ships high emp eff and 1-2 kill ships that are out of ship types. Xan: Cheap high init ships, Zik: big steal ships and fast kill ships to balance it out and etd: a mix of cloak, steal, emp and normal not limited to just one megaclass of ship. (ie: this rounds BS 2 are cloaked, look at round 29 stats, 1 cloak 1 emp 1 steal)

After that make sure that all ship types are equally represented so not to favor Fi over Co or Cr over BS.

In order to make the game more balanced try and shift the game away from fi/co and cr/bs by making Fr/de better. If you do that then fi/co fleets will not dominate and neither will cr/bs, it will end up being about evenly split. Which is the Idea right?
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Unread 24 May 2009, 20:19   #38
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

FR/DE is always strong.. It hasn't been ever a weak, the thing is..there's no need for anti-cr/bs flak in fr/de classes in this round, or in any round in future if cr/bs fleet races don't get a viable anti-fi/co ship in either cr/bs class or ridiculously high initiave/efficiency ship in fr/de.(but that ship with fr pod.. would make their roiding fleet and no1 would build cr/bs fleet then).. so on 2nd though..it has to be a cr/bs ship what shoots fi/co.
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Unread 24 May 2009, 22:48   #39
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

What i was trying to say is people are always going to build fi/co fleets because of the 1 tick of defence regardless of how much they suck or don't suck. If you put anti fi/co Cr/bs in every fleet then you have to start putting anti Cr/bs into fi/co fleets. Which will further the use of Fi/Co. FR/DE is hardly viable in most round stats because they get shot from all 3 fleet types and will never be able to land attacks. The reason its working this round is because they only have to beat fi/co and small amounts of fr/de.
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Unread 25 May 2009, 06:09   #40
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

FR\DE can work fine aslong as it has good efficiency and targets all classes. I am very agaisnt a CR\BS targetting FI\CO, numerous sets of stats have also shown that it is possible to create balanced stats without any CR\BS targetting FI\CO
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Unread 25 May 2009, 07:44   #41
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

you mean like last round stats which would be perfectly playable and make the current round more fun?
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Unread 25 May 2009, 08:15   #42
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

We could do a bonzai and change PA completely, open up all areas of the ship types (steal, damage, EMP and cloak) to everyone.

Each area is opened up by research, so everyone can have all ships, you limiting the actual amount of ships by maybe 5-6 of each type.

Also perhaps try single targetting for a round.

I would like to see more complexity added to the techtree too, this game became way too simple.
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Unread 25 May 2009, 13:32   #43
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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We could do a bonzai and change PA completely, open up all areas of the ship types (steal, damage, EMP and cloak) to everyone.

Each area is opened up by research, so everyone can have all ships, you limiting the actual amount of ships by maybe 5-6 of each type.

Also perhaps try single targetting for a round.

I would like to see more complexity added to the techtree too, this game became way too simple.
I'd love that. Even works with races, although 5 would be too way too much. 2 or so?

Good luck balancing that, though
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Unread 25 May 2009, 15:28   #44
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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you mean like last round stats which would be perfectly playable and make the current round more fun?
Defensive stats arent fun.
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Unread 25 May 2009, 16:55   #45
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Everything is better than these stats
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Unread 25 May 2009, 17:03   #46
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

cath de is ridicoulously overpowered, let's start by changing that

I read aswell someone proposing anti fi/co bs, well that's just lame because fi/co can't fight back on bs. and can't certainly use it on ally def. why would cr/bs need to shoot on fi/co, fi/co can't shoot cr/bs, it's so wrong, the only ships cr/bs has to fear is cr/bs or frig/de.
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Unread 25 May 2009, 17:42   #47
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

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I'd love that. Even works with races, although 5 would be too way too much. 2 or so?

Good luck balancing that, though
Dont think balancing would be too hard for the stats maker, you would think of the stats as one huge race, not as seperate areas.
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Unread 25 May 2009, 18:50   #48
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

As far as balancing goes, when everything is avaliable to everyone, inbalances doesn't cause the same problems. It might cause stagnation because everyone goes for the same option, but atleast then everyone gets to use the inbalanced things.

Although the idea itself probably have a lot of other consequences that needs to be discussed.
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Unread 26 May 2009, 14:32   #49
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

Tbh, i like the idea of old PA, where we all had a pool of ships to build from. Saying that, i wouldnt like to see the individuality of races gone.

Perhaps a combination of both? Reduce the amout of ships per race, and instead allow everyone to build several others
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Unread 26 May 2009, 15:04   #50
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Re: r32 ship-stat suggestions

There could be other things seperating the races than different kinds of ships.
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