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Unread 21 Nov 2003, 21:49   #1
Mad cat
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Mech stuff

most of you people have heard of mechs in some form (if you havent well... whatever) the giant walking fortresses that dominate the battle fields of the future in almost every game, show, etc. but, why not now? we have the technology
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Unread 21 Nov 2003, 22:08   #2
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Re: Mech stuff

No we don't. Walking bots without feet larger than their main body cannot balance, and anyway are less maneuverable than regular tanks. And think how vurnerable they would be to shockwaves or a simple rpg. It's purely fiction until we have shields and much more responsive actuators in the force range needed.
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Unread 21 Nov 2003, 23:57   #3
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Re: Mech stuff

what W said

oh, and while lumbering tall and mighty over the battlefield might give you an advantage of beeing able to see everything, everything will see you aswell . Wich will make you (the mech) a nice target.

oh, and there would have been the problem of people tipping over Mechs for fun :O (like cow tipping or something..but different)...
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Unread 21 Nov 2003, 23:59   #4
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Re: Mech stuff

it'd work if u gave it a really low centre of gravity, a really low ground clearance and instead of legs use some sort of wheels or even better tracks. then u'd just stick the guns on top.

oh wai...
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 00:55   #5
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Re: Mech stuff

Get off my internet.

I hope you die.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 02:05   #6
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
most of you people have heard of mechs in some form (if you havent well... whatever) the giant walking fortresses that dominate the battle fields of the future in almost every game, show, etc. but, why not now? we have the technology
Judging by your FN, you're refering to battletech mechs, well.... we don't have

military grade portable fusion reactors
advanced actuators
"myomers" or anything remotely similar
human/machine neural interface

I won't even start with the weaponary
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 05:20   #7
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Re: Mech stuff

If anything tanks have been getting shorter over the years. The best protection against incoming fire is to not get hit, a 20-foot robot would be an easier target than the broad side of a barn.

Also:
Legs = slower than wheels/tracks
In a weapon of mostly moving parts, there's nowhere to store extra ammo
Totally defenseless from the back
It'd take much more energy to be moving arms and legs I'd imagine than it does to move tracks and turrets
A bunch of Ewoks could take one out by tossing a rope around one of its legs.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 05:38   #8
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Re: Mech stuff

your thinking the chicken walkers, but when you consider that the thing would probably wheigh close to 200 tons and be going about 50 m/h no amount of ewoks could knock it over with a peice of rope, unless it was about a meter thick and was strung between two VERY large trees then you might topple it.

and no legs are not nessesarilly slower than wheels or treads

i find that the biggest real problems with the things are the balance as you people said the controls and the power, the power is fairly easily dealt with in the form of a small nuclear reactor which also gives it a kamakazi option but the rest well ill let you ppl give suggestions
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 06:18   #9
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
the power is fairly easily dealt with in the form of a small nuclear reactor which also gives it a kamakazi option but the rest well ill let you ppl give suggestions
I think the smallest nuclear reactors still weight in excess of a thousand tons... Nuclear reactors cannot "kamakazi" (it's kamikaze), the biggest danger would be a runaway heatup and subsequent meltdown. Or a steam blowout, assuming you actually are thinking of taking a water cooled reactor with it's own huge water tank along.

And yes, legs are necesarilly slower than threads, where threads can move. Legs can maneuver a bit more (assuming we someday get the ability to make maneuverable robot legs of any real size) which is classically why they're used in fiction.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 07:10   #10
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Re: Mech stuff

yay good 4 u

sigh... it is extreamly easy to create a robotic leg, eg recreate a human leg with metal "bones" and use hydrolics for "muscles" or simply reverse the knee joint why is that so dificult?
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 07:29   #11
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Re: Mech stuff

It would be utterly stupid to bring nuclear technology to war. No leader in their right mind would do that, and risk giving your enemy your nuclear techs. Bush, on the other hand...........
Mad cat, can you please define your "vision" of a mech? 'Cause building an AT-ST (chicken walker from star wars) or something similar would be utterly stupid, as a stinger-missile would deal with one of those far too easily for them to be effective.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 09:41   #12
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Re: Mech stuff

Mad cat is not only an RPer but a terrible one. his ideas are based on bad anime. helpful?
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 09:45   #13
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
yay good 4 u

sigh... it is extreamly easy to create a robotic leg, eg recreate a human leg with metal "bones" and use hydrolics for "muscles" or simply reverse the knee joint why is that so dificult?

Easy? Easy??

Look, the Fi in SciFi stands for Fiction. They're lucky if they can get a robot to walk across a level room without falling over, let alone a battlefield.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 10:25   #14
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Re: Mech stuff

have you actually really looked at what they say the mechs are madeof? the polymers and metals in use today would not be able to stand the stresses and anything made that big would fracture its own leg supports.
also, we dont have most of the weapons that are in use on mechs, although if they ever make a PPC i will be the first to say 'cool'
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 13:16   #15
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951

Also:
Legs = slower than wheels/tracks
In a weapon of mostly moving parts, there's nowhere to store extra ammo
Totally defenseless from the back
It'd take much more energy to be moving arms and legs I'd imagine than it does to move tracks and turrets
A bunch of Ewoks could take one out by tossing a rope around one of its legs.


ATST's have very bad gyro-stabalising systems, despite them being "all terrain"
Mechs however have heavier drives in their legs so they wont fall over as easily.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 14:58   #16
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
why not just breed taller people?
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 15:18   #17
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
yay good 4 u

sigh... it is extreamly easy to create a robotic leg, eg recreate a human leg with metal "bones" and use hydrolics for "muscles" or simply reverse the knee joint why is that so dificult?
The very closest we've come to self-supporting walkers on two legs at the minute are the Honda range of robots with a top speed of 'moving' and a few made by MIT that can jump and bounce and do great things and weight **** all and probably aren't scalable, certainly not in the short-term.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 15:22   #18
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Re: Mech stuff

I read somewhere that robots can't walk down stairs because they have difficulty with adjusting to new ground levels or something. I imagine that on bumpy ground they'd suck pretty badly.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 15:36   #19
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Re: Mech stuff

tbh I think we've all been trolled =(((
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 16:19   #20
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Re: Mech stuff

oh noes! trolled without realising!
bloody RPers
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 16:57   #21
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Work_Child
ATST's have very bad gyro-stabalising systems, despite them being "all terrain"
Mechs however have heavier drives in their legs so they wont fall over as easily.


It wasn't a star wars reference so much as just a point that legs are f'ing clumsy. How hard would it be to flip over a tank? It'd probably have to be driving up an 80-degree incline or something like that. How hard would it be to flip a mech? It steps on something that rolls, breaks unexpectedly, gets a leg caught in something, something gets in between the legs to keep them from moving right, etc, there's plenty of ways for a mech to just fall over.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 17:20   #22
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951
It wasn't a star wars reference so much as just a point that legs are f'ing clumsy. How hard would it be to flip over a tank? It'd probably have to be driving up an 80-degree incline or something like that. How hard would it be to flip a mech? It steps on something that rolls, breaks unexpectedly, gets a leg caught in something, something gets in between the legs to keep them from moving right, etc, there's plenty of ways for a mech to just fall over.


JUMP JETS FS!!!1111

and anyway, in mech3 you could get knocked over and it somehow used to stand up, much the way a person would.

Last edited by Work_Child; 22 Nov 2003 at 17:27.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 18:09   #23
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Re: Mech stuff

mechs dont have arms though
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 18:18   #24
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Re: Mech stuff

i have a mech in my garage
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 20:43   #25
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Work_Child
JUMP JETS FS!!!1111

and anyway, in mech3 you could get knocked over and it somehow used to stand up, much the way a person would.
that is because the pilot inside is linked neurally with the mech and so gives the machine human like movements.

also, using ewok rope to trip a battletech mech is akin to someone trying to trip you up with a piece of sewing machine string, it isn't going to happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SepH
mechs dont have arms though
All Battletech mechs do (i've yet too see one without any arms), just not all end in hands, usually a bfg barrel
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 21:42   #26
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Re: Mech stuff

Actually if they would make a battle bot prolly a insect-based body would be used...
you have spare legs, manouverability, speed, stability, etc.
Making antropomorphic bots its utter bullshit.
A scorpian looking bot would be a good solution from where I am standing.
But i think even today it would be very expensive and counterproductive considering that a $250 shell can prolly rip one of these apart, that will be ludicrously expensive.
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 21:49   #27
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by W
No we don't. Walking bots without feet larger than their main body cannot balance, and anyway are less maneuverable than regular tanks.
Honda made an automotous robot which is antropomorphic.

Quote:
And yes, legs are necesarilly slower than threads, where threads can move. Legs can maneuver a bit more (assuming we someday get the ability to make maneuverable robot legs of any real size) which is classically why they're used in fiction
If a roach were as big as a man it would run at 300km/h
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Unread 22 Nov 2003, 22:59   #28
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Re: Mech stuff

Only the little Mechs
Owen and Firefly off the top of my head dont have arms, most of the rest do, though they rarely/if ever end in hands. As stated above.
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 01:31   #29
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Honda made an automotous robot which is antropomorphic.
What weapons did it have, and how long would it last on the modern battlefield?

I suggest you do look into the state of the art robotics. And by that I don't mean toys.
Quote:
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No.
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 04:48   #30
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Re: Mech stuff

Tbh, while I don't see mechs happening for a long time (if ever) I do think we'll be moving towards an 'Iron Man' style soldier, ie, a guy wearing complete bulletproof armor, with strength-increasing features, onboard weapons & computers, etc. I have read a few articles about how they're doing research into outfits that would make soldiers stronger and allow them to jump like human-sized crickets.
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 05:21   #31
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Re: Mech stuff

i demand this thread be silenced for blatant and indiscriminate sillyness
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 14:37   #32
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951
Tbh, while I don't see mechs happening for a long time (if ever) I do think we'll be moving towards an 'Iron Man' style soldier, ie, a guy wearing complete bulletproof armor, with strength-increasing features, onboard weapons & computers, etc. I have read a few articles about how they're doing research into outfits that would make soldiers stronger and allow them to jump like human-sized crickets.
Elementals again!!
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 17:47   #33
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Re: Mech stuff

I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Unread 23 Nov 2003, 23:12   #34
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Re: Mech stuff

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Originally Posted by Scoot951
I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you did, you'd smash this thread into pieces.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 22:22   #35
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Re: Mech stuff

yes i would say that power armour is the most likely thing to appear in the near future. although in talking to my friend iv discovered that the biggest reason mechs etc wont appear soon is because it would cost millions just to get some sods to design the damn things, you could get a bunch of kids to create a basic design then you just add casings and armour and weapons. grr! damn politics!!!

someone said the mechs in mech3 are neurrally controlled, i really dont think so, the controlls could very easily be like that of a jet fighter, throttle, turning could be difficult but done with a joystick, the aiming could be done with a helmet, you look it points, and all the buttons and switches for various things. the mechs that would have to be neurrally controlled would be things like gundams and other very humanoid bots
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 22:29   #36
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Re: Mech stuff

That's great but you still would have trouble getting it to walk without tipping over. Also I would not want to pilot anything designed by a bunch of kids.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 22:43   #37
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Re: Mech stuff

This thread should be destroyed and all evidence of its existence permanently erased.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:00   #38
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Re: Mech stuff

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This thread should be destroyed and all evidence of its existence permanently erased.
In sovjet russia threads destroy and erase YOUR evidences =/
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:05   #39
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
yes i would say that power armour is the most likely thing to appear in the near future. although in talking to my friend iv discovered that the biggest reason mechs etc wont appear soon is because it would cost millions just to get some sods to design the damn things, you could get a bunch of kids to create a basic design then you just add casings and armour and weapons. grr! damn politics!!!

Heh. I'd advise talking to someone slightly more knowledgeable than "your mate dave" who blames it all on politics and doubtless owns a slipknot t-shirt.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:15   #40
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by W
And think how vurnerable they would be to......a simple rpg
Vulnerable to people shouting "LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT !" ?






I can't believe no-one has done this yet. You're slipping.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:19   #41
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Re: Mech stuff

its getting slightly too old. Plus we the RPers are using it now also. :/
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:22   #42
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Re: Mech stuff

id go for the EMP option. Along with the cib0r v1ru5 thingy =/
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 11:17   #43
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
although in talking to my friend iv discovered that the biggest reason mechs etc wont appear soon is because it would cost millions just to get some sods to design the damn things, you could get a bunch of kids to create a basic design then you just add casings and armour and weapons. grr! damn politics!!!
A quick consultation by email with one of my former natural science tutors (who is in fact an engineer) revealed that the basic problem with making mechs is that we can't make them over the size of a small dog, we can't make them balance, we can't control them, we couldn't protect them, there's no need for them, there's no money for them, there's a host of assorted problems meaning that even if we tried, making them larger wouldn't work, and so on and so forth.

Cambridge fellow > your friend.

[edit]

Although 'you could just get a bunch of kids to create a basic design etc' shows you're either trolling or very very stupid.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 11:18   #44
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Re: Mech stuff

lol you dont even need mechs to kill some terrorists...
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 11:23   #45
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad cat
yes i would say that power armour is the most likely thing to appear in the near future. although in talking to my friend iv discovered that the biggest reason mechs etc wont appear soon is because it would cost millions just to get some sods to design the damn things, you could get a bunch of kids to create a basic design then you just add casings and armour and weapons. grr! damn politics!!!

someone said the mechs in mech3 are neurrally controlled, i really dont think so, the controlls could very easily be like that of a jet fighter, throttle, turning could be difficult but done with a joystick, the aiming could be done with a helmet, you look it points, and all the buttons and switches for various things. the mechs that would have to be neurrally controlled would be things like gundams and other very humanoid bots
Read Battletech books, I do.

Battletech mechs are neurally controlled but that is not to say the pilots just sit there and use their brain only,

Mech pilots are called M3chw4rriors (stupid censors), and are specifically trained to pilot one, areas of the head is kept shaven for the interface with the machine.

They are strapped in, using legs to move the machines legs and amusingly the pilots use dual joysticks to control targetting, torso and arm movement, yes there are targetting computers to assist with shooting etc....

All Battletechs are EMP resistance too. (this is an assumption though, I've yet to come across any direct reference to EMP weapons being used Vs a battlemech, being the year 3065+ you'd think EMP was a minor hinderance at best)

No offense or anything, but with a name called Mad Cat, I'd assumed you'd know all this.

And for general reference for anyone, a Mad Cat (Timberwolf) is a battlemech in the Battletech universe, hence my assumption.

And yes I do need to get a life.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 11:27   #46
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckeh!!!!
No offense or anything, but with a name called Mad Cat, I'd assumed you'd know all this.

And for general reference for anyone, a Mad Cat (Timberwolf) is a battlemech in the Battletech universe, hence my assumption.
It's probably mechcommander/warrior, I think, rather than the books.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 14:00   #47
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Re: Mech stuff

I knew it, and I've never played the games or read the books!

Wait... is that a good thing?
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 14:28   #48
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by W
No we don't. Walking bots without feet larger than their main body cannot balance, and anyway are less maneuverable than regular tanks. And think how vurnerable they would be to shockwaves or a simple rpg. It's purely fiction until we have shields and much more responsive actuators in the force range needed.
there is one who can walk up and down stairs in japan
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 15:24   #49
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
there is one who can walk up and down stairs in japan
Isn't it suspended from the ceiling whilst doing so? I seem to remember to oddly positioned wires in the video.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 16:02   #50
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Re: Mech stuff

by the time they get that far with motive technology, I suspect that AI will be far more sophisticated and quite frankly pap all over any human contribution to battles. AI aircraft will be able to withstand far higher G-forces than they do currently since one won't have to worry about bloodflow to the brain, vehicles will be able to deal with multiple targets in a wide range of optical frequencies with far more rapid tracking and targetting. About the only use I see of humans will be up close stuff and assassinations (and even then, one time dispasable devices will probably be able to do these jobs too) mechs are all well and good in cartoons, but I think they will stay there.
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