Merlin Vs Gandalf

[Nusselt]

googlefight says Merlin


I must agree.

[Gayle29uk]

I'm somewhat skeptical of googlefight's awesome powers here. Merlin is pretty cool and I can see the point were you comparing him to Gandalf the Grey but Gandalf the White takes the prize every day of the week and twice on Sundays

[Ragnarak]

but gandalf isn't real...

[Jammers]

Merlin was sort of real, and didn't die and then come back to life again in some surreal Dallas style plot twist.
On the other hand, Merlin was probably Welsh and had "relations" with his sister in a remote Cumbrian mountain.

I'll stick with Merlin. He didn't take any nonsense from wannabe Vulcans

[Ragnarak]

Originally posted by Iniluki
Gandalf never died tho.

but he wasn't real!

[Jammers]

Originally posted by Iniluki
Gandalf never died tho.

He fell down a huge hole followed by a massive troll type creature. If gandalf survived the fall, the troll must have as well, and the troll would have eaten gandalf while he lay unconcious and bleeding to death.

[Leshy]

If memory serves correctly, he did actually die.

[Ragnarak]

Originally posted by Jammers
He fell down a huge hole followed by a massive troll type creature. If gandalf survived the fall, the troll must have as well, and the troll would have eaten gandalf while he lay unconcious and bleeding to death.

you are in for one hell of a surprise when you see the new film (or heaven forbid actually read the books ;p)

[SepH]

tough call,
Pro's
merlin.......................................................Gandalf

real figure, prolly wise and all that..........1337 ressurection ability
Merlin's beard > Gandalfs........................more "arcane powers"
knights of the round > alot......................friendley neighbourhood
connections with a hand in a lake?..........hobbit friendley wizard

i would have made cons aswell. but im lazy and sleepy so im going to bed
this is all pointless anyways

p.s winnar = both
just because im lazy

[Azaghal]

Gandalf (he's a maia) fell and died, then the valar returned him to middle earth with extra strength (from gray -> to white) for his missions...

At least that's what I can remember

[edit]
btw I saw the new movie, and in there it's a bit different, but the movie ofcourse is not a good source if you want to know things right...
[/edit]

[Jammers]

Originally posted by Iniluki
if you've read the book and not just watched the film you'll realise they fought on the way down, and at the bottom.

I lost interest in the book right after Tom Bombadil was introduced. He may be a jolly old fellow, but as far as the plot is concerned he is pointless (apart from the obligatory "find the elves" bit, which everyone says)

[Jammers]

Originally posted by Iniluki
no

he rescues frodo sam pippin and merry twice, once from the old tree and once from the barrow wrights (where they all get there weapons from).


mmmmkay ?

The first time he appears he doesn't do very much apart from sing. And the tree thing, which was marred by excessive singing.

[G_frog]

You do realise that considering tolkien's stated intent for lotr (and his other books), and what with malory et al, gandalf is merlin?

[Jammers]

Originally posted by G_frog
You do realise that considering tolkien's stated intent for lotr (and his other books), and what with malory et al, gandalf is merlin?

A cheap, Eastern Europeon sweatshop style version of Merlin. The kind you can buy from the dodgy bloke at the local market for a fiver.

[Jammers]

Originally posted by Iniluki
All the singing can be cut out as excessive fluff"!

Hence the reason I didn't like it. When I buy a book I expect it to have been edited in advance, not for me to have to skip through several pages at a time, in the process missing one sentence that isn't singing and is actually vitally important.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Leshy
If memory serves correctly, he did actually die.

He never died.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by ParraCida
He never died.

Just looked it up. It's a bit vague, it depends on the definition of dying. He was "taken out of thought and time" and "Naked was [he] sent back".

So I'd say his middle-earthly body died, while his maia spirit remained and was eventually sent back

[Sandsnake]

Gandalf wasn't mortal to begin with, so "dying" wasn't exactly an option.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
Gandalf wasn't mortal to begin with, so "dying" wasn't exactly an option.

If I'm not mistaken, all the Istari were in fact mortal, although they didn't die of old age.

WARNING: SPOILER FOR NON-BOOK READERS





Saruman, for example, is killed by an ordinary knife at the end of the book. While he was stripped of his rank as leader of the Istari and apparently of his magical powers, he was still maia. Equally, the Balrogs/Valaraukar are maia and not immortal - although they do not die of old age.

[ParraCida]

Well sarumans staff was broken, hence the no magical powers bit.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Well sarumans staff was broken, hence the no magical powers bit.

Not sure that all his magical powers were in his staff. I think he still had the ability to convince people with the sound of his voice, and that's how he took over the Shire at the end of the book. Although I could be mistaken, I think the breaking of his staff is more a symbol of having been demoted as leader of the Istari

Edit: Found the part about Gandalf dying from The Green Books at http://greenbooks.theonering.net

Q: Gandalf deems himself to be trapped upon the pinnacle of Orthanc, and we presume he is trapped because he does not believe he could survive a fall from that height were he to jump off. Did he not understand his immortality as an Istari? Yet, he survives the fall off the bridge of the Khazad-dûm. How does he survive it?

–ElliRose

A: This goes hand in hand with the answer elsewhere on this page about the rules governing Gandalf’s existence. The answer is his body did not survive the fight with the Balrog, fall or otherwise. Yes, his spirit is immortal, but if he had flung his body off the tower of Orthanc, essentially attempting to defy the natural rules he had set himself up to guard (unlike Sauron), the body would have been killed and his spirit houseless. For all he knew, he had to attempt to escape as a mortal would, helped of course by his special power. The body did not survive the Battle of the Peak, and he was given special license, you might say, to return into the body and into Middle-earth. As for the fall, it says that at the bottom of the chasm was water. We could debate the physics of it all day long, but I’m willing to take it on faith that the body survived the fall, if not the ensuing fight. In the case of Orthanc, Gandalf undoubtedly knew that his spirit would live on, but that if his body perished, he would not necessarily be able to continue his task. Only through the grace of the Valar is that permitted later on.

–Anwyn

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Leshy
WARNING: SPOILER FOR NON-BOOK READERS





Saruman, for example, is killed by an ordinary knife at the end of the book. While he was stripped of his rank as leader of the Istari and apparently of his magical powers, he was still maia. Equally, the Balrogs/Valaraukar are maia and not immortal - although they do not die of old age.

Although it's up for discussion as to whether he actually survives that long in the film. They certainly appear to have filmed him dying much much earlier (for the LOTR freaks and to avoid giving away too much to those who haven't been following the threads it appears to be right around the part I said I wanted to see most but allegedly isn't in the film ) although they appear to have played silly buggers with the filming to try and obscure certain things.

Back on topic though, you haven't given us your verdict Leshy! Even though Tom Bombadil is clearly greater than both (Maia or nature spirit? What's your view?).

[Belgarath The Sorcerer]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Even though Tom Bombadil is clearly greater than both (Maia or nature spirit? What's your view?).

No where is it stated exactly who or what Bombadil is.

In a fight, I reckon Gandalf would have Merlin any day of the week.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
No where is it stated exactly who or what Bombadil is.

I know, but we can surmise (with fair certainty) that he's not one of the Valar, he's not Eru Illuvatar, he was there before the elves (the oldest of races) so that pretty much leaves us with him being a Maia or some sort of nature spirit. I know it's conjecture but that's what makes a good thread hijack (sorry. did I say hijack? I meant discussion :P)

In a fight, I reckon Gandalf would have Merlin any day of the week.

Only as Gandalf the White though, Gandalf the Grey was too flaky to be a sure thing.

[Belgarath The Sorcerer]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk

Only as Gandalf the White though, Gandalf the Grey was too flaky to be a sure thing.

Even though he had the Red Ring Narya, given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright on the Wizards' arrival at the Grey Havens? I think Gandalf the Grey would be tough competition for Merlin, too tough in the end I think, and would end up the same fate as Durin's Bane.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
Even though he had the Red Ring Narya, given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright on the Wizards' arrival at the Grey Havens? I think Gandalf the Grey would be tough competition for Merlin, too tough in the end I think, and would end up the same fate as Durin's Bane.

He may have been able to handle the Balrog but the ring isn't really that big a thing. Vilya is the greater of the three Elven rings yet that doesn't mean Elrond could survive a fight with Gandalf (and note that having Narya (the ring of fire) almost certainly gave Gandalf a helping hand against the Balrog). And let's not forget Merlin himself was no amateur according to legend although I have to admit I know a lot more about Eä than I do the legends of Merlin.

You miserable little geeks.

[Tzencath]

merlin, he's a brit

Gandalf, he's not even remotely human...

[Nusselt]

this thread went wrong

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Back on topic though, you haven't given us your verdict Leshy! Even though Tom Bombadil is clearly greater than both (Maia or nature spirit? What's your view?).

Personally, I'd have to pick Gandalf. Merlin seems to be more of a prophet, with magical skills such as changing shape. Gandalf is much more combat-oriented, able to hold off a group of Wargs, Ringwraiths and finally to hold his own and defeat an ancient maia spirit in the form of a Balrog, a demon of flame. And where Merlin is the guide and advisor for only a single royal court, Gandalf's affairs stretch an entire continent.

As for Tom Bombadil, he is. Nothing more, nothing less. He is not a Maia, nor a Vala, nor a nature spirit. He simply is

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954

[[GAP]Obiwan]

maybe they should cover this one on celebrity deathmatch??

would be amusing

[Leshy]

Knowing the creators of that show, it'd probably end with a Balrog smashing both of them

[bobble]

this is amusingly sad

merlin aaaaall the way! qo: