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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:14   #1
cbk100
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Closed by the law or by the mass??

Well bare with me in this post cause it will be long.

Is it right or wrong to close rabba?

That is the topic that I will try to work with here. You might agree and you might not, but nomatter what I will try to prove that I'm right when I say that rabba should not be closed or rather, rabba should be reopened.

First of all we all have to make 1 thing clear. I do not in any kind of way support cheating and I do not in any kind of way support ship farming which is the thing we are to discuss here.

We have to start somewhere and in the mass of all the info I'm to present for you here, so lets start out by defining a few things.

We are playing this game of our own interest and by our own will, but we are paying for it. The fact that we are paying for it means that we have some rights to get what we pay for and I really think we do get that... if not more, but that is not the important thing in this matter.
What is really important in this matter is that we accept to play by some rules. Some rules that we MUST follow by all means as long as we play this game. If we don't follow these rules PA HQ is in their good right to close our accounts or give warnings to the person who doesn't follow them.

Let me come up with a little example taken from the manual:

"You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are only allowed to play 1 account, and you are not allowed to share your login info with anyone."

Well lets try to look at that cause basicly those lines is the ones that define what the PA community normally look at as cheating.

It says that its not allowed to give your account to another.
It says that you are only allowed to have 1 account.
And finally it says that you are not allowed to share login info with anyone which means that you are not allowed to account share as its said normally.

But where is the part about ship farming?

And maybe even more interesting where is the part about roid farming?

Hmm, I wondered about that too so I read all of the manual and NOPE....nothing there, but well lets stick to ship farming since that is what this thread is about.

So the conclusion to this is that there is absolutely NOTHING in the manual about ship farming, and therefore the closure of rabba's account doesn't have (in Danish and Norwegen its called "hjemmel") (In english I would call it something like "right to do it by the law" but I'll use “hjemmel” and just hope that ppl understand what I mean) in the manual.

But where is it then that it is stated that its not allowed?

All that I have been able to find is this:

[25-Feb] [23:49:48] <@CH> 5) Dreadnought (present) asked: Is Ship farming Illegal in r9?
[25-Feb] [23:50:00] <@Spinner> Hi Dreadnought
[25-Feb] [23:50:03] <+Dreadnought> lo
[25-Feb] [23:50:04] <+Dreadnought>
[25-Feb] [23:50:04] <@Prince> lo dready
[25-Feb] [23:50:30] <@Spinner> Yes, ship farming is illegal
[25-Feb] [23:50:34] <+Dreadnought> k
[25-Feb] [23:50:36] <+Dreadnought> neat
[25-Feb] [23:50:42] <@Spinner> But as everyone knows, it can be quite hard to proove
[25-Feb] [23:50:48] <@Spinner> prove even
[25-Feb] [23:50:56] <@Prince> but we have the great eye that is ever watchful

So it was said in a Creators hour b4 the beginning of the round.

So YES it has been said that ship farming is illegal and yes it was said in a public place so that everyone could see it.

But is that enough to make it a rule and if so is it then binding?

The answer to the first question is: Maybe!!!

The creators can more or less create rules as they want to, or can they?

That leads to the other question weather that log from creators hour is binding or not. The answer to that question is definitely NO!!! because of a lot of things.
One of the reasons for this is that not all can get on IRC and therefore they can't see what you are typing there. Then some might say that its posted on the portal and there everyone can see it and yes that is absolutely true, BUT you can’t expect everyone to read those logs and in fact you KNOW that many ppl don’t read it and therefore you can’t by any means expect everyone to know about that rule you made and therefore a rule made in a CH can NEVER be binding.
Furthermore as I said b4 there is nothing in the “rules section” in the manual(“THE LAW”) about ship farming and since the manual is the ONLY source of rules you have to live by in this game you are not bound by something said in CH or anywhere else but in the manual.

Because of this I will conclude that ship farming in PA is NOT a reason to close an account and it is in fact not even illegal. Not even roid farming is illegal. Sorry to say it but we have been following a set of rules that was actually not existing and ppl has been kicked from earlier rounds because of something that doesn’t have “hjemmel” in the law (the manual).

Since this is a paying game PA HQ MUST give ppl what they have paid for and only in case that the person who has paid is breaking the rules which are stated in the rules(the manual) he chose to live by, by signing up for this game, the creators can’t take what he has paid for away from him. In fact PA HQ not just have to reopen his account but they also have to give him back his roids, lost resources from the roids they stole from him and vultures and demeteers they have taken away from him.

Sorry to say it PA HQ, but unless you write down the rules you set and get us to agree to them (by signing up for the game) you can’t DEMAND us to live by them and you can NEVER take away what we have paid for if we chose not to live by them.

All rabba is doing here is to use one of the options that is build into the zik race and NOONE can ever blame him more than morally for that. And in fact he can only be blamed morally for it because we all were not wise enough to see this little “hole” in the set of rules.

Then some will claim that a person like rabba should have known that ship farming was “illegal” or what I will rather call not accepted and yes I might tend to agree with that but without discussing that any further let me post another log:

[22:50] <XXX> Session Start: Sat Feb 22 03:35:42 2003
[22:50] <XXX> Session Ident: Mendosa
[03:35] <XXX> is ship farming allowed ?
[03:35] <XXX> I never did it so far
[03:36] <XXX> as I thought it is illegal
[03:36] <XXX> some galmates telling it is legal
[03:36] <Mendosa> well, you can do it if you wish
[03:36] <XXX> it's a big advantage
[03:36] <Mendosa> aslong as you don't have 2 accounts
[03:36] <XXX> I don't
[03:36] <Mendosa> that is the basic rule
[03:36] <XXX> I got a slave running one
[03:36] <XXX> hehe
[03:37] <XXX> but roid farming is illegal isn't it ?
[03:37] <Mendosa> well, that is the official pa stance on it for the moment

At around those days ppl were talking about races and I talked to a lot of ppl about it being allowed to ship farm and how great an advantage it was for the zik race. So at that time many ppl thought it was allowed and then suddenly a few days after PA HQ had obviously changed their minds and ship farming was made “illegal”. The moral from this is that some ppl didn’t know that they had made it “illegal” until some m8s or something like that told it to them. This is another reason that a CH can never be used as a place to create rules.

What about the ppl who has never been on IRC, read forums and plays in a n00b gal where they don’t communicate? How can they possible know about a rule you make in CH? They can’t, and that is why you have a place where you have the rules (the manual) where ppl has to agree to them to play the game.

Let me try to put up another log:

[20:57] <Grim|afk> could I ask you a question?\par
[20:57] <Prince> sorta\par
[20:58] <Grim|> you wont like it ..hehe\par
[20:58] <Grim|> where in the useragreements does it say..you cant fleet farm???\par
[20:58] <Grim|> thats the reason for why you deleted rabba isnt it??\par
[20:58] <Grim|> legally you aint allowed to close his account...\par
[20:59] <Grim|> am I right?\par
[21:00] <Prince> check ch rules\par
[21:00] <Prince> the user agreement defers to game rules\par
[21:00] <Grim|> could you give me the url to the ch rules?\par

And well ofc. He couldn’t come up with those rules beside refer to the log where Dread asked if it was allowed or not. Then again we are back to “Can it really be true that 4k ppl has to go trough pages and pages of reading stuff on the portal just to look for rules that might be hidden here or might be hidden there???”. Ofc. It can’t be the meaning and therefore you can NEVER demand that ppl knows about such a rule and as stated earlier even if they did know you can’t delete them since they didn’t broke any of the rules they chosed to play by.

Take Special notice of this:

[21:00] <Prince> the user agreement defers to game rules\par

hmmm then I really wonder… so what he is saying there is that its only the game rules we have to go around and search for in the “nowhere” on the portal….good that I’m not a new member who has to dig in a CH from 1 year back to find out that roid farming is illegal…

[21:08] <Prince> its in message of the day\par
[21:09] <Prince> that all players see in login\par
[21:09] <Prince> To Anyone Thinking Of Farming, Remember The Great Eye Is Ever Watchful\par
[21:09] <Grim|> it says about farming....not fleet farming...\par
[21:09] <Prince> farming is both\par

So how many here actually think that the n00b in this game will think of farming as being the same as stealing? To be honest I think you have to be rather stupid to think that (sorry Prince but I really do).

That is just another example on that is simply can’t be right that they can delete rabba on the basis they are using.

[21:13] <Grim|> but to delete or close rabbas account...is to take it a little far...when you cant.. show to any rules...yeah ok...message of the day...but that again wouldnt hold up in a coart\par
[21:14] <Prince> its not a court\par
[21:14] <Prince> as i could edit user agreement\par

Well since Prince just a few minutes earlier said that game rules and user agreements are 2 totally different things then why bring those user agreements into such an answer… all he is saying there is that the “law” is the user agreements just like I have stated a lot of times in this thread. So actually what he is doing here is to talk against himself.

[21:14] <Prince> my freidns do law\par
[21:14] <Prince> \par
[21:15] <Grim|> you can eddit users agreement now...but rabba..havnt pressed accept to the "new" user agreements\par
[21:15] <Prince> our policy and ruels can be changed at any time\par
[21:15] <Prince> see that in the agreement\par

Taken from the manual:

3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion. Such amendments shall be effective whenever we make the notification
available for your review.

Hehe good that I’m not a twat at reading English…look at those lines YAIKS!!!!

Well back to the point. Yes you can change the rules at any time, but why refer to the user agreements once again when he has already stated that the user agreements and the game rules are 2 different things… it seems a bit strange to me and actually it seems like he is partly admitting that PA HQ probably should have put it in the manual when they made the rule that ship farming was made illegal. And yes you should cause only at that time the rule would be effective.

A totally different thing is that I don’t think its allowed by general law to have an option in the user aggrements that says you can change the user agreements as you want at any time you want them, but I’m not sure about English law so well let that be for now. I just want the PA community to make note of that cause in fact that is some h**l of a point to agree to.

[21:16] <Grim|> yes..but then again... the users have to be notified a sertain amount of time before the change is done..and they have to be notified well...which..havnt been done\par
[21:17] <Prince> fine i'll change now\par
[21:17] <Prince> give 5 days nottife\par

And there we have it… The user agreements obviously wasn’t that different anyways since he agrees to change them now. To me this looks like HQ admits they have made a mistake and now they are going to correct if for the future.

Yes you did make a mistake and its good that you are now going to change it for the future, but you can’t delete rabba cause at the time he farmed that rule wasn’t there.

[21:18] <Prince> u kill someone\par
[21:19] <Prince> now u know its wrong\par
[21:19] <Prince> people say its wring\par
[21:19] <Prince> goverment says it wrong\par
[21:19] <Prince> so when they ot u in jail u say\par
[21:19] <Prince> "oi the law does'nt say i can't kill on a friday"\par

Well Prince now you try to look a bit more stupid than you really are. I don’t need to study much law to know that it says that its illegal to kill… the law says its illegal to kill(that is the basic rule). Then if you ask yourself if its illegal to kill at a Friday you will notice that if you do it will be a to kill and since to kill is illegal it is also illegal on a Friday.
Sorry to say it but to put up such a crap scenario is simply too stupid…even for a PA creator LOL.
But lets try to relate the idea to PA which I suppose is what you try to do just from PA to the real world:
Then the basic rule about ship farming will be: hmmm since I have already stated that a CH log can’t be used as a place to create a law, there simply isn’t any law and in that case its even allowed to ship farm at Fridays just as on the other days.

[21:27] <Prince> u tryed reading ad
[21:27] <cbk> yes
[21:27] <cbk> and?
[21:27] <Prince> and its very very very
[21:27] <Prince> 100% against him

When has that got anything to do with rules? Rules are Rules and if there are no rules about a ship farming he can’t be closed because of it. And AD should have least of all to do with it, cause if AD can now have a say in who gets closed and who doesn’t then I think I’ll spam some more there and educate a bunch of other to spam like crazy. It simply can’t be true!!!! You create the rules and ONLY you!!!

[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Prince> but as pa wants it by the book
[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Prince> by the book it goes
[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Rabba> ok Prince

OK then run it by the book and reopen his account!!!

[21:38] <Prince> is ship farming right or wrong
[21:39] <cbk> we'll see
[21:39] <cbk> let me put it that way
[21:39] <Prince> no
[21:39] <Prince> answer the question
[21:40] <cbk> ok then you also answer mine
[21:40] <cbk> yes it is wrong
[21:40] <cbk> but how wrong is the question
[21:40] <cbk> can you close rabba because of it?
[21:40] <cbk> he has paid for a service here
[21:41] <Prince> he paid for a service
[21:41] <Prince> and promisr to abide by USer agreent ad rules

He promised to abide by the user agreement, I will agree to that, but as I have said earlier there is nothing in the user agreements about ship farming so he didn’t promise to abide by anything about ship farming.

I’m not sure if you mean that he also promised to abide by some “added rules” by promising to abide by the user agreements, but if that is what you mean then I think you should read the user agreements once again cause I don’t see anywhere where he promises to do that.

[21:42] <cbk> I understand your point
[21:42] <cbk> but you can't close him for it
[21:42] <cbk> and you know that too
[21:43] <cbk> that was why you didn't close him in the first place
[21:43] <Prince> yes i do
[21:43] <Prince> but u must understand
[21:43] <Prince> the masses have alot of say
[21:43] <Prince> and atm they want closure

I really don’t like to post this since this might be able to hurt you Prince and since it will hurt the trust that ppl might have in me keeping everything secret that they talk to me about in PMs, but I do this for rabba and for justice.

Its pretty obvious that its not PA HQ that is closing rabba, but it’s the mass!!! And well, that is not allowed. I know you had some pressure on you from all sides Prince but I thought you were professional to do your job as the job has to be done instead of letting the masses push you, but I was obviously wrong.

Your problem with this is that its not worth anything to have “hjemmel” in the mass but only in the law so closing rabba because of the mass is not legal!!!

Well if PA HQ wants to close an account that rabba has paid for they CAN’T by any means do it with “hjemmel” in the mass just like Prince is admitting they are doing. They can ONLY do it if they have “hjemmel” in the user agreements and they can’t possibly have that since there is nothing about ship farming in the user agreement.

I think I have made my statement clear and hope that other can see what I mean by this. I don’t like that rabba has ship farmed(even though its not illegal). Its morally illegal and I stick to the moral, but I only look at this with the glasses in line with the law.

cbk
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:18   #2
Eol
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Norwegian law also to a much greater degree than for instance US law considers common sense. Rabba is an experienced player. Rabba knew about this. Rabba also broke the rules, probably because he felt it was safe to exploit it. That Rabba thus evades punishment is quite, frankly, silly. Shame really.

The user agreement clearly states in point 7 that they can close your for ANYTHING as they see fit. It totally annuls every argument really. If Spinner one day got drunk decided to delete all planets with attacking fleets out, he could do that and still be in the right. It wouldn't be right, but he could do it in the legal sense.

I'm sorry, but there is really no reason why Rabba shouldn't be deleted here. The 'notice of change' doesn't even matter - it's quite quite clear that they can do anything for any reason at any time in point 7, and besides it's not a matter of changing the user agreement but rather changing the game rules. Or even enforcing the already determined game rules (though obscurely so).
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:19   #3
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There is a precedent to delete people for ship farming, so I think that the precedent that has been acknowledged by the creators is good enough to warrent closure.

Now, I really do think that the masses forced the creators hand on this, and really, isn't that the representative democracy that players have wanted since the dawn of time?

Now, the Creators listened, and I think that in itself is a good thing.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:30   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eol
Norwegian law also to a much greater degree than for instance US law considers common sense. Rabba is an experienced player. Rabba knew about this. Rabba also broke the rules, probably because he felt it was safe to exploit it. That Rabba thus evades punishment is quite, frankly, silly. Shame really.

The user agreement clearly states in point 7 that they can close your for ANYTHING as they see fit. It totally annuls every argument really. If Spinner one day got drunk decided to delete all planets with attacking fleets out, he could do that and still be in the right. It wouldn't be right, but he could do it in the legal sense.

I'm sorry, but there is really no reason why Rabba shouldn't be deleted here. The 'notice of change' doesn't even matter - it's quite quite clear that they can do anything for any reason at any time in point 7, and besides it's not a matter of changing the user agreement but rather changing the game rules. Or even enforcing the already determined game rules (though obscurely so).
Its an English company so its English law and not Norwegen.

Rabba also broke the rules??? what rules??? there aren't any FFS!!!
And well the 2nd part I simply chose to avoid cause that is just too stupit. Ofc. he can't just delete whoever he wants to delete. that is logic sence for every human above 10 years of age.

So the reason that there is no law to close his planet isn't enough reason to not close him?
Try to turn it around and see if there is a reason why he should be trown out and you will get to the same result in my post...there is no law to do it!!!

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:31   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
There is a precedent to delete people for ship farming, so I think that the precedent that has been acknowledged by the creators is good enough to warrent closure.

Now, I really do think that the masses forced the creators hand on this, and really, isn't that the representative democracy that players have wanted since the dawn of time?

Now, the Creators listened, and I think that in itself is a good thing.
What precedent, pray tell? And don't spout any roid farming precedent, because we both know that doesn't hold up. Ship farming hasn't been illegal til r9, so unless someone else has been deleted for ship farming this round, there is no precedent. [/end argument]
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:32   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
There is a precedent to delete people for ship farming, so I think that the precedent that has been acknowledged by the creators is good enough to warrent closure.

Now, I really do think that the masses forced the creators hand on this, and really, isn't that the representative democracy that players have wanted since the dawn of time?

Now, the Creators listened, and I think that in itself is a good thing.
aaahhhhh so if I gather 3 mill ppl in a country like Denmark with a population of 5 mill then I can chose that I want to rob the national bank... now that is nice huh?? do you see how stupit you are in what you say?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:34   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
Its an English company so its English law and not Norwegen.

Rabba also broke the rules??? what rules??? there aren't any FFS!!!
And well the 2nd part I simply chose to avoid cause that is just too stupit. Ofc. he can't just delete whoever he wants to delete. that is logic sence for every human above 10 years of age.

So the reason that there is no law to close his planet isn't enough reason to not close him?
Try to turn it around and see if there is a reason why he should be trown out and you will get to the same result in my post...there is no law to do it!!!

cbk
English law tends as far as my knowledge of it, to also take into account common sence. It is also to a very large extent dependant on PRECEDENT. Need I say more?

Rabba broke the rules that were generally set down in precedent. Get out of the thought that everything needs a document. Britain doesn't even have a constitution - it is a system made almost entirely on custom.

And yes he can. It says so in the user agreement. So there is a law to do it.

I find it ludicrous you defend a cheater too.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:35   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
aaahhhhh so if I gather 3 mill ppl in a country like Denmark with a population of 5 mill then I can chose that I want to rob the national bank... now that is nice huh?? do you see how stupit you are in what you say?
Let's not turn this into a discussion about 'stupitity'.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:37   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eol
English law tends as far as my knowledge of it, to also take into account common sence. It is also to a very large extent dependant on PRECEDENT. Need I say more?

Rabba broke the rules that were generally set down in precedent. Get out of the thought that everything needs a document. Britain doesn't even have a constitution - it is a system made almost entirely on custom.
What precedent? The precedent that roid farming is illegal? That hardly holds up, as we're clearly discussing 2 different activities.

The last time someone ship farmed (before Rabba), they weren't deleted, and thus the actual precedent seems to support him.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:43   #10
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Fred was deleted in a previous round, why is this case "special" or would you say that the winner of that round possibly took it under false circumstances
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:47   #11
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I don't know why Fred was deleted, but if it was for ship farming he should not have been deleted... plain and simple...

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
Fred was deleted in a previous round, why is this case "special" or would you say that the winner of that round possibly took it under false circumstances
Fred farmed roids, a practice which had been made illegal quite loudly, and if my memory serves, was even included in the EULA, neither of which occured with ship farming in r9.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:48   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator
Fred farmed roids, a practice which had been made illegal quite loudly, and if my memory serves, was even included in the EULA, neither of which occured with ship farming in r9.
Actualy roid farming isn't illegal either....by law and it is not enough reason for HQ to delete him... LOL

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:50   #14
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The fact I posted a thread about it--after presenting all evidence confidentially in a PM more than 12 hours prior--doesn't mean that was the reason he was closed.

Yes, there was complaining from various people...but as Prince said himself, it ultimately had little to do with the resultant closure.

As stated before, it seems like "common sense", but that's just me. Even I knew going into the round that ship farming (or roid farming) was illegal. The question arose about "farming" in general, and was answered as "all farming will be illegal in round 9" or something (we had pre-round discussions in our galaxy about this issue, so it has to have gone back at least that far).
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
Actualy roid farming isn't illegal either....by law and it is not enough reason for HQ to delete him... LOL

cbk
That could arguably be the case now, but in r7 it was rather explicitely illegal. Fred had no case. Rabba is quite different, legally speaking.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:57   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
The fact I posted a thread about it--after presenting all evidence confidentially in a PM more than 12 hours prior--doesn't mean that was the reason he was closed.

Yes, there was complaining from various people...but as Prince said himself, it ultimately had little to do with the resultant closure.

As stated before, it seems like "common sense", but that's just me. Even I knew going into the round that ship farming (or roid farming) was illegal. The question arose about "farming" in general, and was answered as "all farming will be illegal in round 9" or something (we had pre-round discussions in our galaxy about this issue, so it has to have gone back at least that far).
Well if you have read my post it says why he got closed in it so yes I know why he got closed and that is why I know they couldn't close him on that basis.

And as you also see from my post actualy some of the ppl with op in #planetarion said that ship farming was alowed so you can't posibly expect ppl to know that its illegal when some say that its legal...its simply not posible. Maybe your gal had some ppl with magic mind reading skills but I know that my gal had to ask and the answer was that it was allowed.

And well even you have to admit that rabba can't be closed with "hjemmel" in the law.

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 03:58   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator
That could arguably be the case now, but in r7 it was rather explicitely illegal. Fred had no case. Rabba is quite different, legally speaking.
NUMER SEVEN FS.

Catch all clause.

God, can't you read?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator
That could arguably be the case now, but in r7 it was rather explicitely illegal. Fred had no case. Rabba is quite different, legally speaking.
There's nbothing about either form of farming in the rules, so it's the same, yet fred was closed.

And Eol is closer to the answer than you
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:10   #19
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I'm pretty sure the creator's can tell us of specific cases of people being caught ship farming better than I can, more than just Rabba has been deleted this round, and the creators wouldn't have made such a big deal in the MOTD and CH if ship farming wasn't a problem that they are rectifying.

And legally, whatever the creators say in game goes. I didn't see you jumping up and down that "fining" Rabba was against the rules too. No one in this entire game is going to sue the creators over a $10 account or some lost ships. That's just life, and therefore you can bring up real life analogies or constructs, it won't make a signal difference.

PA Crew have the authority to close accounts. They gave fair warning that they would not tolerate farming of any kind. The fact that they were going to initially be lax on Rabba, but were strict because of massive player opinion shows to me that we are going a bit towards player representation in the decision making process.

But for you to say that Rabba did nothing wrong, when Rabba himself resigned is oh so cute. For you to say it in the long winded manner in which you did, that's just sad.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:16   #20
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Re: Closed by the law or by the mass??

Any1 that knows enough to ship farm, should know enough to know its against the rules...
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:23   #21
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All the rules against so called 'Ship farming' are just stupid anyway.

They would have been worthwhile in round 2, when you could steal someones entire fleet without losing an entire ships, but as now you lose an equal ammount in resources, how is it farming. As the very definition most people give to farming is gaining something without any losses.

As you cannot do this anymore, the rules against ship farming are totaly flawed.

Besides, you find me one Zikonian player who doesn't ship farm. Rabba just had the bad luck of being #1, and as such more watched.

And honestly, does anyone in PA HQ wonder why more and more experianced players keep leaving the game?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:28   #22
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/me bows to cbk ... long winded in the thread.. but.. very informative. shame on you Prince... Im afraid that the only masses you are listening to are located in your own head. At the least you could actually open your mind... realise ooops we messed up.. and let the game continue like we all started... this voice screams re open rabba!
does this mean you can change the rule that all left handed people should conform and become right handed too.. because thats about as ludicrus (sp) as the rule about changing rules mid game... PA strike 2 so far this round.... one more and this batter is out for good this time.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:30   #23
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I must say cbk that was well put and i agree with what you are saying.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:32   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eol
NUMER SEVEN FS.

Catch all clause.

God, can't you read?
If the only justification the creators have is clause 7, you have already lost the argument.

God, can't you understand?

Quote:
Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
There's nbothing about either form of farming in the rules, so it's the same, yet fred was closed.
And Eol is closer to the answer than you
But when Fred was deleted there clearly WAS something in the rules about farming. Now there is neither. Roid farming, on the other hand, at least has a precedent, that being the previous rounds. Ship farming has none.

Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
I'm pretty sure the creator's can tell us of specific cases of people being caught ship farming better than I can, more than just Rabba has been deleted this round, and the creators wouldn't have made such a big deal in the MOTD and CH if ship farming wasn't a problem that they are rectifying.
And legally, whatever the creators say in game goes. I didn't see you jumping up and down that "fining" Rabba was against the rules too. No one in this entire game is going to sue the creators over a $10 account or some lost ships. That's just life, and therefore you can bring up real life analogies or constructs, it won't make a signal difference.
PA Crew have the authority to close accounts. They gave fair warning that they would not tolerate farming of any kind. The fact that they were going to initially be lax on Rabba, but were strict because of massive player opinion shows to me that we are going a bit towards player representation in the decision making process.
But for you to say that Rabba did nothing wrong, when Rabba himself resigned is oh so cute. For you to say it in the long winded manner in which you did, that's just sad.
The point, CC, is that the creators DIDN'T make a big deal of it in CH, or in the MotD. The MotD addressed farming in general, which to the casual player, does not say anything about ship farming, which had been legal until r9. To anyone that missed that CH, a message in the MotD about farming means that the creators are still against roid farming. Furthermore, posting the CH on the portal is essentially meaningless as plenty of players play without ever having looked at the portal. The "big deal" in CH was a few lines answering Dread's question...hardly a large explanation or wide-scale attempt to make it clear.

As I said above, if the best reason to delete Rabba is the "whatever the creators say in game goes" clause, then we have truly degenerated to a pitiful point. I didn't jump up and down, as you say, concerning Rabba's fine, because frankly, I didn't have the time to read through all this until now, and all of these events have transpired in the course of a day.

As for your last point, that of Rabba's resignation, what you take to be a sure sign of his guilt, I take to be the action of someone concerned for his alliance. If you were accused of massively cheating, I suspect you would resign from Auld in the same way, simply because the political backlash (for instance, the possibility of having your allies turn against Auld for harboring a cheater) would be too great.

I'm not saying Rabba didn't cheat. He obviously did, according to the "Creator fiat." The real question here is whether or not it was actually clear that this sort of activity was illegal in the game. The fact that the manual and EULA say nothing about it, and that there is no precedent for thinking that it IS illegal, indicate strongly to me that PA-crew did a rather poor job notifying people of the rules changes.

How did they notify us?
1. CH - Out of 4.5k players, how many attend CH, pray tell?
2. Portal - I ask the same question. The portal contains very little useful content, in my experience, and so I would argue that the vast majority of the players never go there.
3. Forums - As so many of our eloquent AD trolls have pointed out time and time again, many of the most influential people in the game never read the forums, because they are known to be full of drivel. I would classify Rabba as one such person, since in the 7 rounds that I have known him, I've seen him post on the forums about 5 times.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:34   #25
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To correct a smaller misunderstanding:

Rabba has OP in #pack on netgamers.
Rabba has op in our channels on our private servers.
Rabba is still on WP homepage ranked HC.
Rabba is has still HC rights to the pages, and irc.

I really would like ppl to stop statements about "why would he resign if he knew he did nothting wrong" when, apperantly there isnt a member in WP that still considers Rabba as beeing a wolfpack HC, aswell as he still carry's everything that follows his rank as a WP HC.

So please stop with false statements, and assumptions until rabba himself on this boards, posts such a resignation, or leaves the Wolfpack channels and servers, with that official statement.

Thank you.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:35   #26
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I MUST agree with cbk.....but i ahvea few things to add....


1. From what i understand...Rabba was closed due to a tattle tail little person klnown as cochese....he had a news scan...might b wrong

2. The news scan informed the scanner (cochese) that there was a flow of inc that consisted of small ammounts (most likely froms of pods).

3. Now to me..if somone attacks you...they want yer roids...if they are n00bish enough to send 50 pods at a huge player (ranked at #1/#2) then that is thier problem...You are NOT responsible for thier actions....

4. Rabba defends his account...now i am a zik...if a person attacks me with only 50 ships....there is no way in hell i will leave my kill ships @ home...i want his ships..that is my purpose...that is what my race does...

5. So rabba steals this blokes fleet...every time he sends it...now let somone proove that is farming...we all know what it is...but PROOVE IT....you cant..impossible...unless you have a confession...and an irc log is inadmissable in a court of law....i am no comp wiz and i can edit logs...you need a VOCAL confession...y do you think the police tap phone lines and use wires...they need VOCAL CONFESSIONS!

6. so...rabba defends his account and proporly i might add...another player contiues to suicide his fleet against rabbas (hoping to get roids)...GREAT....rabba is NOT responsible for that action...he does reap the benifiets tho...

i can defend roid farming in the same mannor....

now that it is impossible to prove ne1 is farming anyhting....lets move on to the user manual and the user agreement....
==============================================

OFC the creators can edit the manual and user agreement at any time...but....the user agreement WILL NOT affect rabba...only if he does "farms" again..and then you need to refer to 1-6 and PROOVE IT...impossible once again...

Think about it like htis...

HYPOTHETICALLY:
I drive around a college campous with insaley loud CLASSICAL music blaring over a pa system and loud speakers....(currently against the law as disturbing te peace but hypothetically...we dont have athat law).....cops cant do anyhting to me cause there is not law against it...right...well one week later the city passes a law banning the "distubance of the peace" (playing loud music)....so...is it possible for me to be prosecuted for doing that a week earlier NO...i have to commit the act AFTER THE LAW WAS CHANGED!!!!!

so..change the user agree ment to include farming (wich is unproveable) ne "farmers" would have to commit the act again to be indicted....

So with all that in mind...Rabba was illegaly closed as there is no referance in the USER AGREEMENT OR MANUAL to farming and its illegalness.....so...PA opend itself up for legal action...id suggest...reopening his account...because id donate money to his cause and have legal action against PA for this attrocity...he is owed BIG...how you right this wrong is not my cup-o-tea...

Shae/tex

ohhh..P.S. Doesnt it take 2 ppl to farm?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 04:36   #27
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Re: Re: Closed by the law or by the mass??

Quote:
Originally posted by Spoticus
Any1 that knows enough to ship farm, should know enough to know its against the rules...
What rules?

The not guilty ones from that CH log?

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:04   #28
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This thread is crap FARMING IS ILLEGAL FRED WAS CLOSED IN R7 FOR FARMING. Quit trying to find ways to make farming ok or to help a CHEATER to KEEP what HE GOT ILLEGALLY. USER agreement #7 means they can close ya and remove ya for whatever purpose pretty much and since r7 they have said farming is ILLEGAL they didnt say JUST ROID farming they said FARMING.

Come on we all know its illegal stop with this nonsense and entrapment and stop trying to help someone that is PA MASTERBATING get in the war dont spend time freaking sticking up for farmers/ Play planetarion if you wanna play with yourself get a gameshark and a ps2 and go play that.

Farming is illegal it may not be in user agreement but it was not in the user agreement when fred was deleted im told either so TOUGH LUCK SUCK IT UP FARMERS! Quit trying to play judge judy you have 0 thats right 0 say so in what happens to rabba or anyone else farming thats up to the PA crew. If rabba is allowed to farm then fred was illegally closed in r7.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:05   #29
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Now, I'm ok with some people being ignorant of the law, I can't quote the user agreement and I'm sure you can't either. However, its quite contradictory for you to use "we didn't know about it" as an excuse when clearly the overwhelming amount of people(and a few bit of them HCs) in a thread just a couple of posts over knew it was against the rules. If all these people knew it was against the rules, obviously there was an attempt to make it known. I knew it was illegal, I'm a zirk, I don't ship farm and I don't go to CH at all. However I make it a point not to do anything that is illegal, or could be construed as illegal.

As for your hypothesis about me resigning over allegations of cheating. If it was untrue, I wouldn't resign and I'd challenge it. I've been accused of breach of trust, hypocracy, and misleading my membership by ND officers on this boards, the only reason worth resigning over is simple incompetence, but that's my opinion and I digress.

Speaking of digression, whats with all this "admissible in a court of law" stuff? I mentioned in my earlier posts that like real life politics, real life law doesn't really apply. There is Planetarion legal system, its just the creators. If you wanted a semblence of balance of power you should've supported the Senate like your best friend Cochese and myself.

There is a precedent, short of mass mailing peoples accounts to remind them, I think they did a good job of telling us that it was illegal, you didn't know because you don't play. cbk clearly knew he's just being an ass trying to disprove it. I don't know why.

Rabba was closed because that is the rule. If you break the rules you forfiet your account. Unfortunately for him, there is no excuse for ignorance when you're the number 1 player and an HC, it just doesn't wash.

PS: On his resignation, I wrote my article acting on information that he had resigned, clarification is noted and appreciated.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:08   #30
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Farming is getting something for free.

You LOSE an EQUAL ammount of resources for the new ships you gain.

Ship farming is flawed now, but would have been applicable in round 2. This != round 2.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:11   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Farming is getting something for free.

You LOSE an EQUAL ammount of resources for the new ships you gain.

Ship farming is flawed now, but would have been applicable in round 2. This != round 2.
I can't build vultures, yet for some inexplicable reason I want them more than what I can build out of its equivilent resources. Maybe that's why you can steal, so you can get ships that although cost the same, are actually more suited to your needs?

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:17   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
I can't build vultures, yet for some inexplicable reason I want them more than what I can build out of its equivilent resources. Maybe that's why you can steal, so you can get ships that although cost the same, are actually more suited to your needs?

So remove the stealing race, as its ridiculously hard to steal any other way.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 05:22   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
So remove the stealing race, as its ridiculously hard to steal any other way.

if this was a perfect world, I wouldn't mind it going back to one race. And yes, without stealing ships, it is hard to steal ships.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:12   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
if this was a perfect world, I wouldn't mind it going back to one race. And yes, without stealing ships, it is hard to steal ships.
You misread me, I meant that it is ridiculously hard to steal without 'ship farming'.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:21   #35
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He cheated, got caught cheating and is closed. Im failing to see where there is anything that isnt black and white here.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:31   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
You misread me, I meant that it is ridiculously hard to steal without 'ship farming'.
Disagree. Defending netted me some nice ships, and a couple attacks too. I'd admit its not exactly as much as I'd want, but I'm content My only problem is cathars and people running, as I'm doing atm
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:37   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
You LOSE an EQUAL ammount of resources for the new ships you gain.
wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
So remove the stealing race, as its ridiculously hard to steal any other way.
and again wrong.

now some1 plz close this thread as seeing ppl defend this cheater is geting more and more absurd.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:39   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
Disagree. Defending netted me some nice ships, and a couple attacks too. I'd admit its not exactly as much as I'd want, but I'm content My only problem is cathars and people running, as I'm doing atm
Yet when I played Zik last round, the only real way i could get ships would be to have a mate 'send' me some. As when you attack, you generaly lose the ships you steal.

Pointless.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:52   #39
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this is just so damn pathetic...

he knew it was not 'legal'
and he did it he got closed and now he got re-opened while the reason for closure was perfectly legal????
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:57   #40
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Re: Closed by the law or by the mass??

Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
*Alot of interesting points*
would you care this much if another HC u had no contact with got closed for ship farming?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:58   #41
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Rather than respond individually to all the rubbish that has been said since my last post, I will attempt to refine and clarify my position for those who still seem to be missing the point.

In r7, the Manual (if not the EULA) clearly stated that roid farming was illegal. Fred broke this rule and was deleted. This sets a clear precedent for roid farming, but the precedent for ship farming is far less clear.

The problem with roid-farming, and the reason that it was banned, is that it essentially unbalances the game in severe ways, allowing players who may be utterly lacking in skill, to win simply by having more friends (or accounts). Since astropods have ceased to be destroyed by capturing, this has become an issue of being able to gain FREE astroids.

Ship farming is not like this. You gain only as much in terms of resources as you lose. It is a zero-sum game. The reason ship-farming "became a problem" was the ability to use it to gain via salvage, making the race to the end of round in a stagnant round, one of ship farming where salvage helped determine the winner.

The problem with this argument is that it doesn't really show how ship farming is a problem. In fact, it points to a problem with salvage. Well before the zikonian even existed, salvage races were a part of the race to the top towards the end of the round. It's just that Zik could do it better because there was less net-loss of ships for the salvager.

My point in discussing ship farming is this: Ship farming is not the same sort of offense that roid farming is. It's also not the same sort of offense that multi'ing or account sharing are. Unlike Multi'ing, Account sharing, and roid farming, ship farming ISN'T an activity that is pure-gain. It has drawbacks, and it takes skill to use ship farming to your advantage. Therefor, it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps the punishments for these offenses should be different.

I personally don't think that ship farming should be illegal at all....but I'm not going to argue that point. If they make it illegal, it's illegal. But when you consider that

1. Ship farming has less detrimental effects on the game than roid farming, multi'ing, OR account sharing.
2. The Creators didn't make a reasonable effort to make the rules change clear (See my earlier posts)
and
3. The precedent regarding ship farming is that it isn't illegal at all.

then I think it's reasonable to say that the punishment FIRST given to Rabba (i.e. the fine) was a relatively fair one, and that deletion is an entirely different topic.

I hope the mods don't cave to pressure to close this debate the same way the creators did to Rabba's account.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 06:59   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator
If the only justification the creators have is clause 7, you have already lost the argument.
Clause 7 is the most important clause it seems here. Though each side is arguing over the same matter, each approached this question differently. One side approached it as a "precendence in unenforcement" or a "right" to be removed only with subsantial evidence. The other side is arguing that PA has the right to do what it damn well wishes with Clause 7.

Why use Clause 7? it is important because of these circumstances. 1) Planetarion is a private company, the policies it sets, as long as they are not against any law can and will be upheld in court. 2) Planetarion has choosen that "cheating" is wrong, and if not specifically stated previously, its value choice in this fits under Clause 7 and can and will take action to support its choice using Clause 7. 3) Clause 7 may seem to be fairly vague and is not very "deontologically" oriented, but once again we are dealing with a private corporation. Private companies, unlike say the GOVERNMENT, get more freedoms and you are not given much civil liberties with a private corporation as say a government. 4) These arguement as well thought out as it is, will still not help the individual. This matter needs to be discussed with PA Crew, all this allows is for us to voice our opinions. I for one don't give a care what happened. I just can't resist trolling these boards.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:06   #43
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Closed by the law or by the mass??

^^ Closed by the law for mass farming

or explainme how can a l33t guy #1 planet very active and so on get such a BR ?

http://www.pilkara.com/parsers.php?scanid=1059074480
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:07   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axis_WLF
This thread is crap FARMING IS ILLEGAL FRED WAS CLOSED IN R7 FOR FARMING. Quit trying to find ways to make farming ok or to help a CHEATER to KEEP what HE GOT ILLEGALLY. USER agreement #7 means they can close ya and remove ya for whatever purpose pretty much and since r7 they have said farming is ILLEGAL they didnt say JUST ROID farming they said FARMING.

Come on we all know its illegal stop with this nonsense and entrapment and stop trying to help someone that is PA MASTERBATING get in the war dont spend time freaking sticking up for farmers/ Play planetarion if you wanna play with yourself get a gameshark and a ps2 and go play that.

Farming is illegal it may not be in user agreement but it was not in the user agreement when fred was deleted im told either so TOUGH LUCK SUCK IT UP FARMERS! Quit trying to play judge judy you have 0 thats right 0 say so in what happens to rabba or anyone else farming thats up to the PA crew. If rabba is allowed to farm then fred was illegally closed in r7.
ahhh so you really are stupit enough to expect that n00b who just joined this game without having friends here and without joining IRC or something like that has digged trough the mases of written stuff beside the manual to find out that farming is illegal... its not illegal by the law and that means that you can't be judged by it... Weather or not you are able to raise yourself to a point where you look at the situation from an objective perspective is the big question, and from what you post it seems like you cant.

You just say that farming is illegal, but where is the proof of what you say. I have proved that its at least not illegal by the law but everyone who talk aggainst me here fail to come with any proof can back up what they say.

Quit playing judge??? I back up all I say with hard proof which is more than what you can say about all othere here. You might think that I'm "playing" judge but I have done a damn good job playing then, since have have sound so damn many mistakes in HQ's way to handle this and in the manual.

Btw. you say yourself that PA HQ is the ones who are to decide about rabba... don't you think its s bit of a problem that Prince says that I'm right when I say that they can't close him and says that they just closed him because of the mess here on AD?

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:14   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100

You just say that farming is illegal, but where is the proof of what you say. I have proved that its at least not illegal by the law but everyone who talk aggainst me here fail to come with any proof can back up what they say.

Quit playing judge??? I back up all I say with hard proof which is more than what you can say about all othere here. You might think that I'm "playing" judge but I have done a damn good job playing then, since have have sound so damn many mistakes in HQ's way to handle this and in the manual.
proof? reason for deleting?

that clause 7 covers it all. and saying some n00b didn't know ok.
but we both know rabba knew damn well he wasn't allowed.
he knew he was commiting an offence and he will admit that aswell or he's really a liar and i doubt he is tbh. a judge would take into account what the person who commited an offence knows. i don't know exactly what it's called in english but an offence when you clearly know about it is much worse then when you don't and only in THAT situation when you DID NOT know some things can be excuses. which is not the case here.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:15   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator
My point in discussing ship farming is this: Ship farming is not the same sort of offense that roid farming is. It's also not the same sort of offense that multi'ing or account sharing are. Unlike Multi'ing, Account sharing, and roid farming, ship farming ISN'T an activity that is pure-gain. It has drawbacks, and it takes skill to use ship farming to your advantage. Therefor, it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps the punishments for these offenses should be different.
Grand arguements but what should be an acceptable punishment? If we consider the maximum to be deletion of your account by such offenses as Multi'ing, account sharing, and roid farming. What would the less serious "ship farming" result in?

Loss of resources, roids, or ships? I agree that ship-farming is a less damaging sort of action... i had this nice argument bout your analysis of it being a zero-sum game, but it all revolved around the two player interactions. Wasn't as well supported as i thought.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:18   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faberius
Now, I'm ok with some people being ignorant of the law, I can't quote the user agreement and I'm sure you can't either. However, its quite contradictory for you to use "we didn't know about it" as an excuse when clearly the overwhelming amount of people(and a few bit of them HCs) in a thread just a couple of posts over knew it was against the rules. If all these people knew it was against the rules, obviously there was an attempt to make it known. I knew it was illegal, I'm a zirk, I don't ship farm and I don't go to CH at all. However I make it a point not to do anything that is illegal, or could be construed as illegal.

As for your hypothesis about me resigning over allegations of cheating. If it was untrue, I wouldn't resign and I'd challenge it. I've been accused of breach of trust, hypocracy, and misleading my membership by ND officers on this boards, the only reason worth resigning over is simple incompetence, but that's my opinion and I digress.

Speaking of digression, whats with all this "admissible in a court of law" stuff? I mentioned in my earlier posts that like real life politics, real life law doesn't really apply. There is Planetarion legal system, its just the creators. If you wanted a semblence of balance of power you should've supported the Senate like your best friend Cochese and myself.

There is a precedent, short of mass mailing peoples accounts to remind them, I think they did a good job of telling us that it was illegal, you didn't know because you don't play. cbk clearly knew he's just being an ass trying to disprove it. I don't know why.

Rabba was closed because that is the rule. If you break the rules you forfiet your account. Unfortunately for him, there is no excuse for ignorance when you're the number 1 player and an HC, it just doesn't wash.

PS: On his resignation, I wrote my article acting on information that he had resigned, clarification is noted and appreciated.
I know how the law system works and I also know that some cases aren't just settled with "hjemmel" in a law, but what you fail to remember is that they ALWAYS are settled on the basis of a law. Maybe not directly but always of the BASIS of a law.
I think we cal all agree that you can't just close rabba directly by law, but there is no law from with you on the BASICS of it can close rabba.

The PA community looks at farming as written down in law, but its not and we don't agree to live by it and to be honost NO cases in the official law system has ever been setteled on the basis of something not written down in a law.

And I don't know that I'm trying to be an ass, and funny enough I have tons of ppl telling me that I'm right. Your only problem is that my arguements are backed up by facts, logs, law and such stuff. Your arguements are backed up by your own word and oppinion...

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:23   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyphie
this is just so damn pathetic...

he knew it was not 'legal'
and he did it he got closed and now he got re-opened while the reason for closure was perfectly legal????
Just because he knew it was "illegal" doesn't set up a law. The fact that the law was not there gave a hole in the manual and rabba went trough that hole. If I had seen it earlier than today I'm sure that I would have adviced other ppl to take it too.

And still another person who manage to come to the conclusion that its legal to close the account....but hey were are your proof??

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:27   #49
cbk100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
he was closed for cheating.

End of discussion.
ahhhh so we don't need a cout of law anymore?

You have been arested for killing so we don't need a cout of law to justify if it was you and if it was for how long you has to be in prison?

Nice world you are living in Rumad but try to get back to earth where most othere of us are.

If a wrong decition is made by PA HC its OUR responsebility its our job to correct them and I did it here backed up by good argumentation and lots of facts. You will have a problem to prove that anything is wrong in that

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 07:33   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyphie
<snip>
but we both know rabba knew damn well he wasn't allowed.
he knew he was commiting an offence and he will admit that aswell or he's really a liar and i doubt he is tbh. a judge would take into account what the person who commited an offence knows. i don't know exactly what it's called in english but an offence when you clearly know about it is much worse then when you don't and only in THAT situation when you DID NOT know some things can be excuses. which is not the case here.
Actually, we DON'T know that he knew about this rules change, and that is one of the crucial parts of the argument. The creators only actually mentioned the change in 3 places: CH, the portal (in the form of the CH log), and on the forums.

The forums I will cover by simply saying that only a very small minority of the current player base can be verified to read them. As many on AD are fond of pointing out, there are many influential people who never read them at all, because most people on them are blowing smoke.

CH I will cover in the following way: If we consider that the very LARGEST CH's have had only 1000 people, and that there are over 4500 in the game, we can assume that only 25% of the players, or less, actually got the message about the changed rules from the CH.

As for his possibility of hearing of it via word of mouth, let's analyze it more fully. When I ask someone what happened in CH, they usually try to summarize it in a simple way, telling me only what was important. It's pretty easy to concieve of a situation where Rabba did just this, and the person answered him with, "R9 will be pretty much like r8, but with no overburn and with some different stats. See the manual when it comes out," not even realizing that the change in ship-farming rules was actually important.

To make you understand just how believable this is, I'll offer you the following example. Earlier tonight I was discussing the r9 changes with the head of large alliance, who I will not name. He disclosed to me that until 2 weeks into the round, he had been unaware that there was no more OB. Like Rabba probably did, he skipped that CH, and someone else briefed him on it. They didn't think to mention the OB, and because it wasn't on his list of high-priority items, it didn't occur to him to ask.

Now consider: OB affects EVERYONE in the game. Ship farming affects only Zikonian players. Which one do you suppose we should hold people more accountable for knowing?

In essense, to assume that Rabba knew of this rules change without PA-crew even bothering to put it in the Manual, let alone the EULA, is to assume something quite stupid. Rules changes should be loud and clear, not hidden in a CH log that probably more than 50% of the players don't read.
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