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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 16:48   #1
All Systems Go
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[Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
In this thread, God does exist. Any comments about God not existing etc... will be unhelpful and a distraction from this question, so pleae refrain yourself from these types of posts.

Now, my question.


Now, in the Bible I believe it is said (probably by Jesus) that people should give up their material posessions etc... Even if it does not it is of little relevance here.

A murderer (if he does not repent) will go to hell. that is a fact. What of the common man? the western world is far better off than most areas on the planet with most of the countrys wealth being here.

Person A is fortunate enough to have been born in one of these afulent countries and get a decent job, making a respectable sum of money. He occasionally gives a little to charity, but not much else.

Person A, by choosing to live with slightly lower living standards could donate more money to charity and save potentially thouands of lives. He does not choose to do this. Person A knows that every penny he spends on some useless gadget for his own short-term amusement could have gone on helping others. this is something he knows, but chooses not to think about.

His actions have a direct impact on the less fortunate and in some cases result in the death of others due to his inaction.

Assuming he repents the rest of his sins (but not this one because he doesn't really think of it as a sin), will this person go to hell for allowing thousands of people to die so he could have a more comfortable lifestyle?
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 16:51   #2
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
repentance doesn't have to be sin specific.
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 17:00   #3
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
If you have no remorse for an action then you cannot repent. Any effort will result in God knowing you lied to him. the consequences of this cannot be plesant.
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 18:10   #4
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you have no remorse for an action then you cannot repent. Any effort will result in God knowing you lied to him. the consequences of this cannot be plesant.
remorse doesn't have to be sin specific
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 18:12   #5
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
remorse doesn't have to be sin specific
Do you have a point?
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 17:17   #6
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
the church includes this in its all in one bananza. all sins, no worries.

they probably throw "gay sex" in as standard in africa and we get "death by comsuming" for nowt.
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 17:26   #7
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
I was under the impression that, in some situations, if you genuinely don't know it's a sin, it isn't, because knowing is half the battle.
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 17:57   #8
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
i assume that person, like all intelligent christians,

will realize the error of his ways on his deathbed, and be saved!
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Unread 24 Jun 2006, 18:16   #9
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
A murderer (if he does not repent) will go to hell. that is a fact.
No this is incorrect. Serious theology is pretty much not in agreement that there is a place such as 'Hell' at all in Christianity. Conditionalism (which I think is the idea that our souls are not immortal at all), universalism (everyone is going to heaven), annihilism (the unrepentent experience complete death), and other variants are in contention with traditional views (and with each other). Also I remember reading about how the notion of fire and brimstone Hell is a later invention.

Interesting reads:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Lib...dy/ibi_4_2.htm (scroll down to Which "hell" should we go to?')

Quote from the last link:
Quote:
If the minister says that your father is in Gehenna, you must say, as graciously as ever and with all earnestness, "Then let us take a plane to Jerusalem and look for him there." If the minister says that your father is in Tartarus, remark that, while your father did, on occasion, fail to remember your mother's birthday, he was never a stubborn, sinning angel who surrendered his sovereignty during the days of Noah (1 Pet. 3:19-20. 2 Pet. 2:4, Jude 6). If the minister says that your father is in hades, let a smile come to your face and rejoice aloud in front of the startled cleric that, like Christ (Acts 2:3 l), David (Ps. 16: 10), and Jacob (Gn. 37:35) before him, your father has ceased from his troubles and sufferings (Jb. 3:11-19), and now rests, as if asleep (Jn. 11:11,14).
Of course, Travler (a perfect 7 letters, the power of Jesus prevails!) will come in here and spew the stuff his under-educated pastor will have fed him, but pay no attention.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 02:59   #10
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
No this is incorrect. Serious theology is pretty much not in agreement that there is a place such as 'Hell' at all in Christianity. Conditionalism (which I think is the idea that our souls are not immortal at all), universalism (everyone is going to heaven), annihilism (the unrepentent experience complete death), and other variants are in contention with traditional views (and with each other). Also I remember reading about how the notion of fire and brimstone Hell is a later invention.
There is plenty of fire in the Bible. Brimstone seem to be mostly in the King James version. Here is an example:
Luke 17:29 (King James Version)
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Of course, Travler (a perfect 7 letters, the power of Jesus prevails!) will come in here and spew the stuff his under-educated pastor will have fed him, but pay no attention.
I have never asked my Pastor about his education but I can tell you that in our church he started out as a musician,singer, and the worship director. You can find more about Chuck at http://christtemplechurch.net/.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 03:37   #11
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
There is plenty of fire in the Bible. Brimstone seem to be mostly in the King James version. Here is an example:
Luke 17:29 (King James Version)
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all
Okay so can you tell me where in this picture Hell is. Thanks.

And while we're at it, can you point to heaven? Maybe in the Andromeda Galaxy? Maybe this one? Or maybe one of these. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I have never asked my Pastor about his education but I can tell you that in our church he started out as a musician,singer, and the worship director. You can find more about Chuck at http://christtemplechurch.net/.
Who needs to think when god will do it for you amirite
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 05:54   #12
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Okay so can you tell me where in this picture Hell is. Thanks.
You think Hell is located in the center of the earth? How should I know where Hell is. Why don't you ask someone that resides there. I really have no desire to go there so I really don't care where Hell is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And while we're at it, can you point to heaven? Maybe in the Andromeda Galaxy? Maybe this one? Or maybe one of these. Thanks.
You are looking for heaven and God in those pictures. I am seeing Heaven and God. Heaven is a spiritual place. You cannot find it in the physical realm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Who needs to think when god will do it for you amirite
Proverbs 3:5 (New International Version)
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

Yeah actually that would be perfect if God could think for me. I would have the mind of Christ. Unfortunately I am still stuck in my intellect for now but someday I pray to be in the spirit where Jesus dwells.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 06:08   #13
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
You think Hell is located in the center of the earth? How should I know where Hell is. Why don't you ask someone that resides there. I really have no desire to go there so I really don't care where Hell is.
You are looking for heaven and God in those pictures. I am seeing Heaven and God. Heaven is a spiritual place. You cannot find it in the physical realm.
What is a realm and where can you find one and how many are there and do you have anything that you can show me that substantiates the existence of realms, and then also of the specific realms you're speaking of. Or are you willing to believe in the existence of 'realms' without any physical evidence and if so why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Proverbs 3:5 (New International Version)
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

Yeah actually that would be perfect if God could think for me. I would have the mind of Christ. Unfortunately I am still stuck in my intellect for now but someday I pray to be in the spirit where Jesus dwells.
See this is what is brilliant about Christianity, it's like a mind virus. A computer virus can sometimes disable anti-virus software, in order to keep the anti-virus software from detecting the computer virus' bullshit activity. Christianity, the mind virus, disables cognitive functions and criticism, in order to keep the cognitive functions and criticisms from detecting Christianity's bullshit. Hence it took incredibly amazing, super amazing, and superduper amazing people to observe and face incongruities in the universe and finally force thinking individuals to sit down and come to grips with virus activity of the mind.


Edit: wow I love this painting of Copernicus, I just made it my desktop.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 09:46   #14
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Okay so can you tell me where in this picture Hell is. Thanks.
As in this thread we're considering the Christian God to be correct...

Heaven and Hell would obviously be in a different dimension and so cannot be physically pointed at.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:23   #15
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Heaven and Hell would obviously be in a different dimension and so cannot be physically pointed at.
obviously
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:05   #16
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
As in this thread we're considering the Christian God to be correct...

Heaven and Hell would obviously be in a different dimension and so cannot be physically pointed at.
On the contrary, I don't think the apostles or Paul were watching the same cartoons as you when they were growing up and probably didn't know anything about 'dimensions,' whatever those are supposed to be.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 06:30   #17
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all
I maybe misreading his original post, but s|k seems to be saying that the concept of a fiery hell was relatively new. Not that the bible didn't have fire in it full stop.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 00:47   #18
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
I think theres a difference between directly murdering someone (ie shooting someone) and indirectly killing someone (ie not giving money to charity).
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 10:07   #19
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
I hear if you wave your arms around your head and pirouette on one foot while yelling "hocus pocus lack of focus I don't believe in the diplidocus" god appears from the other dimension and gives you a wedgy.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:13   #20
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Exclamation Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I hear if you wave your arms around your head and pirouette on one foot while yelling "hocus pocus lack of focus I don't believe in the diplidocus" god appears from the other dimension and gives you a wedgy.
Nope.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:22   #21
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Nope.
You have to believe dude
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:37   #22
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I hear if you wave your arms around your head and pirouette on one foot while yelling "hocus pocus lack of focus I don't believe in the diplidocus" god appears from the other dimension and gives you a wedgy.
I heard that he merely remonstrates with you over some really bad rhyme.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:42   #23
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
I heard that he merely remonstrates with you over some really bad rhyme.
I double dare you to find two other words that I could have rhymed with "hocus pocus". Double dare.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:47   #24
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I double dare you to find two other words that I could have rhymed with "hocus pocus". Double dare.
Locus. Hopeless (:P).
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:56   #25
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Locus. Hopeless (:P).
Hocus pocus near the christian locus for jesus cried "it's totally hopeless"?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 12:33   #26
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Sometimes I think people like s|k get confused.

It is not necessary for Christianity to be wrong in order for Traveler to be exposed as stupid. For example when the idea that a fire a brimstone hell was a latter addition to christian doctrine was raised Traveler responded with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by traveler
There is plenty of fire in the Bible.
It is thereinby pretty ****ing obvious to anyone reading that that Traveler is at least one sandwich short of a picnic. There is no need for s|k to go on and randomly attack christian belief by asking people to point out hell or heaven on man made maps. It's just unnecessary and it just looks silly.

The problem only arises because christianity doesn't set an entrance exam.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:07   #27
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It is not necessary for Christianity to be wrong in order for Traveler to be exposed as stupid. There is no need for s|k to go on and randomly attack christian belief by asking people to point out hell or heaven on man made maps. It's just unnecessary and it just looks silly.

The problem only arises because christianity doesn't set an entrance exam.
I am not attacking Travler (except when he posts rubbish), I am attacking Christianity.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:11   #28
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I am not attacking Travler (except when he posts rubbish), I am attacking Christianity.
I don't think you're clever enough to achieve your stated aim.

I also fail to see what you will gain from such a course of action.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:17   #29
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I don't think you're clever enough to achieve your stated aim.
What you think, at least in this instance, is not important to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I also fail to see what you will gain from such a course of action.
Edification, catharsis, flow, etc
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 17:23   #30
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
What you think, at least in this instance, is not important to me.

Edification, catharsis, flow, etc
you'd do better speaking to a psychiatrist if you want those things.

trying to be the first person to prove christianity wrong may well only add to the problem
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 18:59   #31
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Edification, catharsis, flow, etc
Catharsis is much more likely to come/be of value for you if you go and see a psychiatrist. It may even lead to edification.

I stand by my advice and I do not see what you will gain from your (self confessed) biggoted and intolerent attack on christianity or how it will actually help you achieve any of these things.

(not that i would call it an attack as such being that so far it amounts to little more than a soap box rant)
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 03:33   #32
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Sometimes I think people like s|k get confused.

It is not necessary for Christianity to be wrong in order for Traveler to be exposed as stupid. For example when the idea that a fire a brimstone hell was a latter addition to christian doctrine was raised Traveler responded with:
Sigh, Can you not be so mean once in a while. Do you have to call me stupid? My point is that the King James version has been around a while and is derived from translations. The King James version has been around for quite a while and most Christians are using that translation in one form or another.

Stop reverting to name calling. Make your point without being insulting. It only makes your point less credible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It is thereinby pretty ****ing obvious to anyone reading that that Traveler is at least one sandwich short of a picnic. There is no need for s|k to go on and randomly attack christian belief by asking people to point out hell or heaven on man made maps. It's just unnecessary and it just looks silly.
Again more debasing. But in truth if your only missing one sandwich your only doing as bad as 97% of the worlds population that can be diagnosed with some form of mental illness. The Bible says that you are made whole in Christ. So Jesus is my missing sandwich and thats gotta be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The problem only arises because christianity doesn't set an entrance exam.
Of course there is no entrance exam. It's not like taking a drivers test or being ordained for the clergy. Most religeons that require a test are usually cults.
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You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 19:12   #33
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Oh falsifiability
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 19:51   #34
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh falsifiability
Yeah, but unlike Wikipedians I have a pretty decent clue as to what it means.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 20:29   #35
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
s|k is a christpobe with latent Christian tendencies and may actually be a closet Christian. Why else would he react so vehemently?
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 21:11   #36
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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s|k is a christpobe with latent Christian tendencies and may actually be a closet Christian. Why else would he react so vehemently?
Yeah, like the other day I was reading The Sun and they were raging on about sex offenders being let off too lightly and I was like "lol clearly the guy who wrote this article was a repressed paedophile"!
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:21   #37
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
So you understand the point, then.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:30   #38
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
I try to avoid understanding issues, it detracts from good humour I find.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:31   #39
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
I thought humor was the point.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:36   #40
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
We're still in the middle of the joke old timer.
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Unread 30 Jun 2006, 22:44   #41
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Obviously, why else have religion if not to bring a smile to one's face.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:17   #42
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Which perfectly acceptable scientific theories?

On a semi-related point, do you believe any scientific theories you do not understand?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:23   #43
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
that would depend on how literal you are, and what faith you have. If you believe the old testament you have some fairly obvious flaws, such as the existance of giants, a boat large enough to store two of every species, without them killing eachother, the earth being created in seven days, the original sin, the method of creation of man and the fact that man has "dominion over all beasts", the list goes on and on and on...
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:32   #44
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:33   #45
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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Originally Posted by Boogster
Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
it's unkind to mock original sin.

a lot of people believe in it.

despite how silly it is
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:53   #46
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
Well in one sense its hard to 'disprove' original sin, since the Catholic church refuses to define exactly what they mean by it being 'passed on to each generation', nor do they define any sort of decision procedure by which we can establish whether a particular person is a sinner. However they do claim that original sin is hereditary, and the mechanisms behind heriditary traits are fairly well understood within biology. So far, noone has managed to find a gene that corresponds to 'being a sinner', and although this may be premature, it seems unlikely that they ever will.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:40   #47
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Well of course, Yahwe - you disprove it.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:07   #48
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Well of course, Yahwe - you disprove it.
Original Sin is the concept or believe that an all knowing all loving god (singular) created the earth. This all powerful (and singular) god created only two humans. One male and one female. He created for them a place to live. A place without want. Where everything these two humans ever needed grew on trees.

This god was full of love and kindness. This god knew everything that was ever going to happen and everything to be known.

Said god had one arbitrary law. That neither human being should eat a certain fruit.

The fruit was eaten.

The loving god stopped being loving. The all knowing god pretended that he had no idea that this could ever have happened.

The loving and all knowing god decided to hurt these two first humans.

The loving and all knowing god was so angry that he decided to hate all of the children of these two first humans for ever and ever.

As a god I find that original sin disproves itself.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:20   #49
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Original Sin is the concept or believe that an all knowing all loving god (singular) created the earth. This all powerful (and singular) god created only two humans. One male and one female. He created for them a place to live. A place without want. Where everything these two humans ever needed grew on trees.

This god was full of love and kindness. This god knew everything that was ever going to happen and everything to be known.

Said god had one arbitrary law. That neither human being should eat a certain fruit.

The fruit was eaten.

The loving god stopped being loving. The all knowing god pretended that he had no idea that this could ever have happened.

The loving and all knowing god decided to hurt these two first humans.

The loving and all knowing god was so angry that he decided to hate all of the children of these two first humans for ever and ever.

As a god I find that original sin disproves itself.
I've read some interesting counter-arguments for the problem of original sin. None of them were very persuasive, though.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:21   #50
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings
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I've read some interesting counter-arguments for the problem of original sin. None of them were very persuasive, though.
I've yet to see proof that you can read
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