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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:32   #101
Yahwe
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Is this sort of like "epistemologically speaking, you're not justified in claiming you know anything about the universe"?
yes it is. also doesn't it count as spamming that every one of his posts says the same thing?
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:34   #102
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is really just meaningless though. People see the world with their eyes. If you are actually talking about different causal explanations fine, but it's not like each "culture" has a specific set of explanations, unless you effectively break the word culture down to the word individual.

I'm not really bothered by what other people believe. The only thing that bothers me is if they claim it's based on something it's not.

I have zero interest in cultural cohesion.


This would be helpful if you started providing some examples, or even categories for what you're talking about.
It is massively different way of thinking. Something that comes to mind immiedately are groups in Asia that have no way to distinguish natural from supernatural. They don't see the world that way. Their animism is as real to them as the trees and the rocks they see.

Another great example are cargo cults. Cargo cults are famous for post-world war II pacific islanders in Melanesia who began worshipping American soldiers who had come to their island and then left. That wiki article is a bit off though, it does a good job describing the basics. These are humans who see innovations of 'civilizations' from a totally different perspective.

Arctic Hysteria is fascinating. It is an example culture bound syndromes, (what we call)
'mental illnesses' that exist only in specific cultures.

Then there are ways that people organize animals. I can't remember the specifics, but there's a group living in a tropical environment and they grouped animals not by physical likeness (like flying things as birds, and 4 legged creatures as a group) but by something I can't remember what, but I remember it being really different but intuitively making a lot of sense given their ideas about other things. I dunno, not very specific, I wish I could remember the details.

Dreamtime is a mysterious state that certain Australian natives go into, during which if I recall they are able to talk to other aboriginees hundreds of miles away and know that they are comming to see them, or have conversations with them or something. It's very mysterious, and few know anything about it other than how they see time (FTA):
Quote:
This does not mean that they did not have a concept of linear time, but they considered the everywhen of the Dreaming to be objective, whilst linear time they considered a subjecive creation of wakeful consciousness of one's own lifetime.
Then there is Saphir-Whorf Hypothesis, the idea that language shapes the way we think, the extreme end of this is generally discounted, but it is still a fascinating thing: our language definetely influences how we think or observe things. This true even for individuals: a mechanic will look at parking lot and see make, year, and model, a person who barely knows how to drive will see a bunch of cars. A new yorker in the arctic will see a bunch of snow, but Inuit have tens of different names for different types of snow and ice. Etc.

I am not talking about just different explanations, JBG, I am talking about entirely alien world views where you see a tree as a biological organism and someone else sees a living breathing god that exists both there in front of both of you and in their dreams.

I really don't do it much justice by explaining it.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:36   #103
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Most of the Gay & Lesbian argument (that I have heard) is that they were born that way and that being Gay or Lesbian was not a lifestyle choice. Odd that belief aligns more with creationism than with nurture or socialization ideas about development.
No it doesn't.

Stop pushing creationism. The existence of genetics is support for evolution.

Not only does the fact that people are born gay or lesbianism NOT support creationism but it also raises several very serious doctrinal problems for the church.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 10:14   #104
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Travler
Well I had to go look it up but now that I think about the word does fit.
No it doesn't. You said "It may also explain why I started to believe in that “God created us” dichotomy". At best it's completely incorrect usage. Would you say "What's the difference between a tree"?

Of course, what has gone completely over your head is that I picked on this relatively minor mistake in your post to emphasise the sheer madness of the rest of it. Your moment of revelation, especially, suggests that when you made the decision you had very little clue of what you were talking about, and this is not a fact which has changed in the intervening time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Most of the Gay & Lesbian argument (that I have heard) is that they were born that way and that being Gay or Lesbian was not a lifestyle choice. Odd that belief aligns more with creationism than with nurture or socialization ideas about development.
If you're trying to be a stereotype of the kind of stupid creationist who clearly doesn't understand what he's talking about, then you've succeeded admirably. God of the gaps indeed, but right now the gaps are in your head.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 13:17   #105
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Most of the Gay & Lesbian argument (that I have heard) is that they were born that way and that being Gay or Lesbian was not a lifestyle choice. Odd that belief aligns more with creationism than with nurture or socialization ideas about development.
I think it's best to ignore statements which are made by people with an obvious agenda, especially when its about something as highly politicised as this. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the thread though.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 16:07   #106
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It is massively different way of thinking. Something that comes to mind immiedately are groups in Asia that have no way to distinguish natural from supernatural. They don't see the world that way. Their animism is as real to them as the trees and the rocks they see.
Okay, all due respect there but I'm going to have to disagree. If you don't experience something with your senses it is entirely different to something you experience with your senses. Hell, you can't even experience something without using your senses.

Quote:
One great example are cargo cults. Cargo cults are famous for post-world war II pacific islanders in Melanesia who began worshipping American soldiers who had come to their island and then left. That wiki article is a bit off though, it does a good job describing the basics. These are humans who see innovations of 'civilizations' from a totally different perspective.
This only makes sense from a very abstract creation. You could argue that their spirits created the universe and hence western civilisation and hence these manufactured goods and sent them over but that's not really saying anything substantial beyond some normal religious interpretations and explanations of history.

Quote:
ttp://www.parkhurstexchange.com/qa/A.php?q=/qa/Psychiatry/1998-06-02.qa"]Arctic Hysteria[/url] is fascinating. It is an example culture bound syndromes, (what we call)
'mental illnesses' that exist only in specific cultures.
This makes sense though, considering geographical localisation.

Quote:
Then there are ways that people organize animals. I can't remember the specifics, but there's a group living in a tropical environment and they grouped animals not by physical likeness (like flying things as birds, and 4 legged creatures as a group) but by something I can't remember what, but I remember it being really different but intuitively making a lot of sense given their ideas about other things. I dunno, not very specific, I wish I could remember the details.
Me too

Quote:
Dreamtime is a mysterious state that certain Australian natives go into, during which if I recall they are able to talk to other aboriginees hundreds of miles away and know that they are comming to see them, or have conversations with them or something. It's very mysterious, and few know anything about it other than how they see time (FTA):
I'd like to read more about this. Know of anything?


Quote:
Then there is Saphir-Whorf Hypothesis, the idea that language shapes the way we think, the extreme end of this is generally discounted, but it is still a fascinating thing: our language definetely influences how we think or observe things. This true even for individuals: a mechanic will look at parking lot and see make, year, and model, a person who barely knows how to drive will see a bunch of cars. A new yorker in the arctic will see a bunch of snow, but Inuit have tens of different names for different types of snow and ice. Etc.
This is certainly true and has had a fair chunk of scientific research concentrated on it. Certain people apparently even think in terms of mathematical language, using different areas of their brain. However the fact we describe things in different ways doesn't mean we aren't seeing the same thing.

Quote:
I am not talking about just different explanations, JBG, I am talking about entirely alien world views where you see a tree as a biological organism and someone else sees a living breathing god that exists both there in front of both of you and in their dreams.
Unless you're meaning radically different things tjhan what we usually mean when we say "god" and "dreams" I entirely disagree. Claiming that a tree is omniscient, omnipotent, immortal and non-temporal is not just wrong, it's on the verge of insanity. Claiming something exists in your dreams is mis-defining existence.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 16:23   #107
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Unless you're meaning radically different things tjhan what we usually mean when we say "god" and "dreams" I entirely disagree. Claiming that a tree is omniscient, omnipotent, immortal and non-temporal is not just wrong, it's on the verge of insanity. Claiming something exists in your dreams is mis-defining existence.
No, 'god' doesn't mean the same thing to the 'other' (other types of people). They're not 'insane' (a cultural specific concept anyways). And it is not 'mis-defining' existence, it is simply not defining existence in terms that are familiar with you. Ethnographers, usually, do not go into the field thinking that there is a right way to see the world, that their explanations for phenomena and experience are the 'right' ones. They go into the field for a year and try understand things from the point of the other. They go in trying to be a blank slate (which is impossible). And then they get to know the language, if they haven't already, they become participant-observers to whatever extent the community they are writing about lets them - and this differs some don't really ever let ethnographers in, such as Australian aboriginees, others adopt ethnographers as community/family members - but still the observer introduces something foreign simply by their presence. Anyhow, I recommend reading some ethnographies by cultural anthropologists, letting your guard down and be open to radically new ideas.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 16:33   #108
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Unless you're meaning radically different things tjhan what we usually mean when we say "god" and "dreams" I entirely disagree. Claiming that a tree is omniscient, omnipotent, immortal and non-temporal is not just wrong, it's on the verge of insanity. Claiming something exists in your dreams is mis-defining existence.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I remember after taking hallucinogens around 5 years ago, I was struck with the realisation that pantheism was obviously true - it just made perfect sense that the chair in front of me was God, as was the cat. Now the ghost of Wittgenstein looking over my shoulder makes me reluctant to say that I 'meant the same thing' by the term 'God' as I do normally, but I dont think that what happened was really a shift in my linguistic skills; it was more a shift in my perceptions which made me inclined to use an expression in a way which wouldnt normally make sense (someone who had never had a headache before would be baffled by someone describing it as 'feeling like a pulse inside your head', but once youve had one it becomes obvious that this is actually quite a good description. Talking about the experience of extreme depression as feeling like 'youre completely empty on the inside' is nonsense if we treat words like 'inside' and 'empty' as having their usual meaning, yet this expression is still a perfect description of what it feels like to (eg) break up with someone you love ). Sometimes a certain set of words just feels like the right way to describe a certain experience, and perhaps someone who hasnt had that experience will never really understand why others are so inclined to use that description. Even now I've no real idea what I actually meant by a chair being God and if I had wrote it down at the time I would almost certainly now view my words as being complete nonsense. But I know that it made perfect sense while I was in that particular state of consciousness.

I dont find it all that unbelivable that some people would be inclined to say (and believe) that a tree was god if they were in the right mental state to do so, and I dont think it would necessarily show a misunderstanding of language, or signs of mental illness. It would be closer to a metaphor than anything else, but 'metaphor' is possibly a misleading way of describing what's going on (is it really a metaphor when we say we 'feel empty on the inside'? A conceptual one perhaps)


edit: It's quite interesting to read the verbal reports that (eg) people with pronounced autism use to describe their inner experiences, and how bizarrely alien they sound to us. Words can only really have a fixed set of meanings among people who have had relatively similar experiences - communication starts to break down when you try to stretch language too much, and I think youre going to have serious problems when you try to translate into English the language of people who have a radically radically different conceptual framework to us (which is why the introspective reports of others generally have to be treated very cautiously).

Last edited by Nodrog; 11 Aug 2006 at 17:16.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 22:23   #109
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
No, 'god' doesn't mean the same thing to the 'other' (other types of people). They're not 'insane' (a cultural specific concept anyways). And it is not 'mis-defining' existence, it is simply not defining existence in terms that are familiar with you. Ethnographers, usually, do not go into the field thinking that there is a right way to see the world, that their explanations for phenomena and experience are the 'right' ones. They go into the field for a year and try understand things from the point of the other. They go in trying to be a blank slate (which is impossible). And then they get to know the language, if they haven't already, they become participant-observers to whatever extent the community they are writing about lets them - and this differs some don't really ever let ethnographers in, such as Australian aboriginees, others adopt ethnographers as community/family members - but still the observer introduces something foreign simply by their presence. Anyhow, I recommend reading some ethnographies by cultural anthropologists, letting your guard down and be open to radically new ideas.

"types of people"

you are a greater biggot than any here.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 02:37   #110
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
"types of people"

you are a greater biggot than any here.
And you're still a fatty.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 05:41   #111
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
No it doesn't. You said "It may also explain why I started to believe in that “God created us” dichotomy". At best it's completely incorrect usage. Would you say "What's the difference between a tree"?

Of course, what has gone completely over your head is that I picked on this relatively minor mistake in your post to emphasise the sheer madness of the rest of it. Your moment of revelation, especially, suggests that when you made the decision you had very little clue of what you were talking about, and this is not a fact which has changed in the intervening time.



If you're trying to be a stereotype of the kind of stupid creationist who clearly doesn't understand what he's talking about, then you've succeeded admirably. God of the gaps indeed, but right now the gaps are in your head.
I did not explain that right. I meant that the division between creationist and evolutionist dichotomy.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 05:46   #112
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think it's best to ignore statements which are made by people with an obvious agenda, especially when its about something as highly politicised as this. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the thread though.
I was just trying to allude to the s|k's idea that intelligence is less (or nothing) about genetics and more about upbringing and motivation. My point was this idea could also be applied to the Gay & Lesbian argument that either they were made that way genetically (God or evolution take your pick) or they made a choice to be Gay or Lesbian or it was the result of their upbringing. Sorry if it was a tangent from the discussion.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 06:15   #113
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I was just trying to allude to the s|k's idea that intelligence is less (or nothing) about genetics and more about upbringing and motivation. My point was this idea could also be applied to the Gay & Lesbian argument that either they were made that way genetically (God or evolution take your pick) or they made a choice to be Gay or Lesbian or it was the result of their upbringing. Sorry if it was a tangent from the discussion.
My own personal beliefs are that I have no idea what leads to people to be attracted to one gender/sex to the other. I tend to think it has more to do with our culture and less with anything biological, but I have seen some studies that show otherwise. I don't really know. Even if it was enculturation, it doesn't make it any more of a 'choice'. You don't choose your culture, and it is just about impossible to change these things about you. Imagine trying to change your gender, how does that fit with you? Your gender is something you were, in rough terms, 'taught' to be. It is separate from your sex (this probably going to open another discussion). Either way, I don't believe that it is much of a choice for people, except for the few that can be equally attracted to both sexes.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 10:44   #114
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
No, 'god' doesn't mean the same thing to the 'other' (other types of people). They're not 'insane' (a cultural specific concept anyways). And it is not 'mis-defining' existence, it is simply not defining existence in terms that are familiar with you. Ethnographers, usually, do not go into the field thinking that there is a right way to see the world, that their explanations for phenomena and experience are the 'right' ones. They go into the field for a year and try understand things from the point of the other. They go in trying to be a blank slate (which is impossible). And then they get to know the language, if they haven't already, they become participant-observers to whatever extent the community they are writing about lets them - and this differs some don't really ever let ethnographers in, such as Australian aboriginees, others adopt ethnographers as community/family members - but still the observer introduces something foreign simply by their presence. Anyhow, I recommend reading some ethnographies by cultural anthropologists, letting your guard down and be open to radically new ideas.
The fact it's a cultural specific concept is irrelevant if you know what I mean when I say it. That's all language is, symbols and sounds used to communicate ideas. As nod says sometimes we do lack valid frames of reference I suppose. Surely certain ethnographers and anthropologists should try "translating" these ideas though?
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 15:01   #115
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Ppl dephending on others having correct spelling is the stupid ones. If someones says to me: You me defend eta 8 mate plz.
I think i would have managed to put it together. But tbh its useful to be good at spelling, cause then even stupid ppl have a chance of understanding you.l
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 15:28   #116
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilatus
Ppl dephending on others having correct spelling is the stupid ones. If someones says to me: You me defend eta 8 mate plz.
I think i would have managed to put it together. But tbh its useful to be good at spelling, cause then even stupid ppl have a chance of understanding you.l
Not to mention, good spelling is practical for not making the eyes of whoever's reading bleed.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 15:55   #117
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Lol. Kinda ruined my point there. Have to admit that sentenced without punctuation can sometimes bee a real problems to understand cause you don't understand when a new sentence starts and when a new one begins.

Still, if you can't understand what ppl mean, ask them to explain it again, with shorter sentences. Atleast don't flame them for their bad spellings. I admit sometimes it can be hard to figure out what ppl mean, but they still might have some good points. All is relative, and i could spam on forever. Going to try to stop now, even though i'm a bit drunk atm:/
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 23:08   #118
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Ok reading all this is rely putting my bad spelling and stuff into perspective. And i apologize to eny people i anoid with it. Even Qazok I do not want to many enemies hear. So once again i apologize

and this will be the last post about me now. Expect less of me unless i Se a topic that suits me

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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 11:48   #119
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
My own personal beliefs are that I have no idea what leads to people to be attracted to one gender/sex to the other. I tend to think it has more to do with our culture and less with anything biological, but I have seen some studies that show otherwise. I don't really know. Even if it was enculturation, it doesn't make it any more of a 'choice'. You don't choose your culture, and it is just about impossible to change these things about you. Imagine trying to change your gender, how does that fit with you? Your gender is something you were, in rough terms, 'taught' to be. It is separate from your sex (this probably going to open another discussion). Either way, I don't believe that it is much of a choice for people, except for the few that can be equally attracted to both sexes.
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