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Unread 9 Aug 2006, 20:16   #51
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by s|k
I assume you find the word 'fat' offensive given your your physical condition. Also you have poor posture.
Its my biological determinism weighing heavily on my shoulders
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Unread 9 Aug 2006, 21:22   #52
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Its my biological determinism weighing heavily on my shoulders
Clever. But don't blame it on nature, instead of lack of exercise and whatever causes poor stature. Lack of self confidence? Lazyness? Timidity? Whatever it is, I am sure genetics aren't to blame, unless you have a curved spine or something.
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Unread 9 Aug 2006, 22:35   #53
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 00:46   #54
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
In its colloquial use, the word stinks of biological determinism, racism, and bigotry. Using it for me is tantamount to tacitly accepting and approving of the other's misconceived world view. Something that is unacceptable for me.
I'm sorry if this is in any way distasteful given your apparant dislike of empirical evidence, but biological determinism exists to a certain extent, unless you believe that apparantly inconsequential events in the upbringing of a child provide the cause for the readily apparant gulf in abilities which is seen in our schooling system, which certainly seems the less likely half of the dichotomy given that we know that many aspects of physiology, neural or otherwise, have some basis in the genetic code.

Indeed, to deny that the possibility for deviation based upon genetic factors can exist is extremely distasteful to me, and I suspect it would be to anyone who knows someone with a genetic defect which manifests itself in what is currently known as "mental illness". It flies in the face of all accepted biology.

I'm sorry if you find it unacceptable, but finding something unacceptable is not the same as denying the existance of a thing; what you are doing in this thread is highly intellectually dishonest.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 00:49   #55
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Clever. But don't blame it on nature, instead of lack of exercise and whatever causes poor stature. Lack of self confidence? Lazyness? Timidity? Whatever it is, I am sure genetics aren't to blame, unless you have a curved spine or something.
Whilst many factors are obviously, for the social level we assume of people posting on this forum, self-controlled, many more are not; metabolisms differ, for example, which is a counterargument to what you claim on a pure "use vs intake" level of discussion - by far the simplest and most obvious. There exist many more.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 01:18   #56
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm sorry if this is in any way distasteful given your apparant dislike of empirical evidence, but biological determinism exists to a certain extent, unless you believe that apparantly inconsequential events in the upbringing of a child provide the cause for the readily apparant gulf in abilities which is seen in our schooling system, which certainly seems the less likely half of the dichotomy given that we know that many aspects of physiology, neural or otherwise, have some basis in the genetic code.
I don't have a distaste for empirical evidence, I have a distaste for popular misconceptions. I understand biological determinism exists to a certain extent, especially when it comes to physical ability, but our ideas about how the mind words are so infused with cultural variables (that are taken as granted) that I have yet to read one article by 'experts' on the topic that is not entirely ignorant of a century's work in cultural anthropology and sociology. Gulf in abilities in the schooling system have many different explanations, a school is hardly a laboratory. One big one is called student tracking, maybe you've heard of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Indeed, to deny that the possibility for deviation based upon genetic factors can exist is extremely distasteful to me, and I suspect it would be to anyone who knows someone with a genetic defect which manifests itself in what is currently known as "mental illness". It flies in the face of all accepted biology.
I don't deny the possibility for deviation. The entire concepts of illness and health are culturally based definitions. Ultimately, differences in physical states are just that, value less difference. We cannot separate our entrenched cultural world view from our observation, in many ways they guide how we observe things and absolutely how we interpret what we observe. Clinical objectivity is a ****ing joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm sorry if you find it unacceptable, but finding something unacceptable is not the same as denying the existance of a thing; what you are doing in this thread is highly intellectually dishonest.
That is not true, that is not what I am doing.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 01:53   #57
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I understand biological determinism exists to a certain extent, especially when it comes to physical ability, but our ideas about how the mind words are so infused with cultural variables (that are taken as granted) that I have yet to read one article by 'experts' on the topic that is not entirely ignorant of a century's work in cultural anthropology and sociology. Gulf in abilities in the schooling system have many different explanations, a school is hardly a laboratory.
Most of what I've seen of cultural anthropology and sociology is complete bollocks, however. Maybe it's just the way they tell it.

Furthermore, if you find the commentary made in the paper displeasing, examine the experiment itself, and the results gathered; certainly, whilst in the library for several of my evolution and behavior essays I ignored the text of a paper and just looked at the results and the way in which the experiment is performed.

On a purely anecdotal level, of course, I must say that I have seen nothing in my life which supplies a reasonable amount of counterevidence to the assertion that some people are worse or better in certain abilities due to genetics; whilst I have never seen a paper that tracks people from early development to adulthood, I would probably not be wrong to suggest that such things exist. Certainly, autism research and diagnosis very much deal with the learning capability of infants for certain variety of tasks and functions, and the fact that the differences emerge at early ages when self-determination is unlikely to apply, as well as the requirement to analyse genetic history in diagnosis, suggest that genetics plays something of a part.

Going on another tack, even the most vocal proponents of the learning abilities of chimps, such as Nim Chimpsky, Koko, Washoe and the like, suggest that at best they can reach the mental accuity of a toddler; whilst some things may well be binary based upon the presence of a historically run-away intellect or not (such as the existance of rights vs responsabilities) it seems unlikely that the differentiation that clearly exists in chimps, based upon certain failures of even close relatives of some of the chimps mentioned above to gain similar language skills, debateable as some of them may be, is not also existant in humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
One big one is called student tracking, maybe you've heard of it.
Nope. Although I did take part in a study by Durham University, a decade or so ago, which was designed to analyse the performance difference of individuals on tests taken at induction and in their final, leaving, grades. It was designed as a possible improvement in the design of measures designed for schools as a whole, designed to measure the improvement or deteriation in the results of the student body compared with those that were predicted. Obviously, this would be meaningless if there wasn't some kind of non-self deterministic or environmentally acquired element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
IThe entire concepts of illness and health are culturally based definitions.
Whilst the distinctions between "illness" and "not illness", or whatever, can definitely be blurred (especially for some conditions, with mild autism being a good example) I'd suggest even the most whacked out anthropological subjectivist would say that someone with severe schitzophrenia or autism or epilepsy represent someone with a distinctly lesser set of abilities, as it were, than some other member of the population without those problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
IUltimately, differences in physical states are just that, value less difference.
The word "value" here I think is a particularly loaded one, and one which I will choose to ignore as it is irrelevent. It is clear that the value of, say, good mental arithmatic versus its lack is an artifact of the society in which the difference is studied, but remain an objective difference, even in cases where it's not, say, innumeracy against savante-like abilities to calculate.

Obviously I've assumed that you've been talking about physical (including genetic) causation for mental conditions, "positive" or otherwise. If you're not, then this section has very little relevence to the matter at hand and thus should be ignored anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
We cannot separate our entrenched cultural world view from our observation, in many ways they guide how we observe things and absolutely how we interpret what we observe. Clinical objectivity is a ****ing joke.
I don't consider this relevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
That is not true, that is not what I am doing.
I concur!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
There is no such thing as intelligence.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 03:22   #58
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

How did this turn into a nature vs. nurture debate?

Both play a part and to discount either would be a mistake in my opinion. I found this out by personal experience where after years being apart I had a chance to meet my biological father. My biological father was around for maybe my 1st or 2nd year in life. Then only when I was 30 did I have the chance to meet him again. I was quite shocked to see how similar we were in speech and mannerisms. I never thought genetics could play that large a role in who we are. It may also explain why I started to believe in that “God created us” dichotomy where as before I thought we had evolved.

On a side note my father died of lymphoma a few months after I met him. With both my mother and father having cancer I wonder what my chances of getting cancer will be? Oh well, no time to think about it now. I need a cigarette.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 04:36   #59
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Travler
On a side note my father died of lymphoma a few months after I met him. With both my mother and father having cancer I wonder what my chances of getting cancer will be? Oh well, no time to think about it now. I need a cigarette.
The cigarrette probably isn't helping your odds.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 08:13   #60
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Random Neg Repper
you are such idiot. travler is an idiot who was making a joke. it wasn't a good joke but it was an obvious one AND TO NOT EVEN NOTICE THAT IT WAS A JOKE IS MENTALLY RETARDED!
Forgive me, I didn't realize that my subtle attempt at humor in response to Travler's subtle attempt at humor wasn't alphabet soup enough for this person. I also mention this one because I thought it was funny neg repping me on a thread about spelling equaling intelligence, where grammar has been mentioned also, and yet he's helping prove the point of this thread.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 10:57   #61
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Travler
It may also explain why I started to believe in that “God created us” dichotomy where as before I thought we had evolved.
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. You don't understand the word dichotomy at all do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Forgive me, I didn't realize that my subtle attempt at humor in response to Travler's subtle attempt at humor wasn't alphabet soup enough for this person. I also mention this one because I thought it was funny neg repping me on a thread about spelling equaling intelligence, where grammar has been mentioned also, and yet he's helping prove the point of this thread.
To be fair to all concerned, you do just look retarded in that post.

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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 12:45   #62
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Lightbulb Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
unless you believe that apparantly inconsequential events in the upbringing of a child provide the cause for the readily apparant gulf in abilities which is seen in our schooling system.
Yeah, I'm going to have to ask how you controlled your variables there. I'm aware of how extremely difficult it is to rule out enviromental factors even when youre considering something relatively simple like susceptability to various illnesses, so I find it very very hard to believe that anyone has done a solid study that links academic performance to genetics, while managing to rule out upbringing.

Even if there were biological differences in (eg) learning ability, I would be prepared to bet very large sums of money that they were vastly outweighed by the differences caused by upbringing., except in extreme cases. Get an above average child and put him in a poor family that does nothing to stimulate intelligence, and get a slightly below average child who is born into a family that does everything possible to develop his mental capacities from an early age. I know who I would pick to get the best grades at school.

Its been demonstrated relatively conclusively that physiological differences involving (eg) testesterone levels can affect an individual's propensity towards violence, and that this can be affected by genetics. However the variations here within a given population are almost insignificant when compared to the differences between populations - a 'high testosterone' Brit is still going to be far far less violent than the average Mongol. I would expect that most of the factors which we take to constitute 'intelligence' are similar. IQ test scores have been increasing steadily over the last 50 or so years (before scaling).

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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 12:55   #63
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah, I'm going to have to ask how you controlled your variables there. I'm aware of how extremely difficult it is to rule out enviromental factors even when youre considering something relatively simple like susceptability to various illnesses, so I find it very very hard to believe that anyone has done a solid study that links academic performance to genetics, while managing to rule out upbringing.

Even if there were biological differences in (eg) learning ability, I would be prepared to bet very large sums of money that they were vastly outweighed by the differences caused by upbringing., except in extreme cases. Get an above average child and put him in a poor family that does nothing to stimulate intelligence, and get a slightly below average child who is born into a family that does everything possible to develop his mental capacities from an early age. I know who I would pick to get the best grades at school.
I think you missed the point somewhat there. I was deliberately referring to inconsequential actions because s|k had already stated that he rejected the notion of seemingly consequential actions early in a child's life. Things like whether he eats salt and vinegar crisps or cheese and onion, whether he uses a sony television or a samsung one.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 13:08   #64
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
My biological father was around for maybe my 1st or 2nd year in life. Then only when I was 30 did I have the chance to meet him again. I was quite shocked to see how similar we were in speech and mannerisms..
The first couple of years of life are incredibly important, so this doesnt really provide evidence for anything. Theres also the possibility that other people picked up your fathers mannerisms and transmitted them onto you, or that your mannerisms werent even that similar and you were just showing selective perception.

n=1 studies with no attempts to control variables can never really be evidence for genetic influence.

Last edited by Nodrog; 10 Aug 2006 at 13:28.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 13:23   #65
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think you missed the point somewhat there. I was deliberately referring to inconsequential actions because s|k had already stated that he rejected the notion of seemingly consequential actions early in a child's life.
Oh, I see what you mean. It was possible to take your post in 2 different ways :/
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 13:38   #66
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Oh, I see what you mean. It was possible to take your post in 2 different ways :/
No worries.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 17:18   #67
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Nobody ever blames their genes for how great they are
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 18:43   #68
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
because s|k had already stated that he rejected the notion of seemingly consequential actions early in a child's life.
Can you please elaborate on what you are saying here please, I rejected what?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 19:03   #69
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nobody ever blames their genes for how great they are
I do. That's why, against my better judgement, I intend to have 5 or 6 kids. I'm doing my bit for the gene pool.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 19:33   #70
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Can you please elaborate on what you are saying here please, I rejected what?
I think he feels that you don't believe that toddlers are very good spellers.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 19:47   #71
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

I believe that people become who they are by processes of enculturation and socialization. I also believe that observers of other people cannot remove their own cultural lenses and 'objectively' study other people, classifying mental states, behaviors, and the like without falling back on what are ulimately culturally specific worldviews that are not any more correct than any other worldview, a higher form of thinking, and the like. Hence any qualitiative ideas about what goes on in a persons head should probably not be used as a means to make assumptions about the nature of the human organism in relation to thinking, and any quantitiative studies based on the qualtiative constructs about people's minds suffer from serious flaws from the beginning. I do not doubt the statistical evidence about the various relationships observed between variables produced by these ideas, I simply do not buy the interpretations that rely on genetic explanations.

HOWEVER. I believe in science, and given solid evidence that contradicts my ideas, that challenges them and addresses my concerns about cultural points of view I would be forced to rethink my perspective. I do not think the mind is a ghost in the machine.
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Last edited by s|k; 10 Aug 2006 at 19:54.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 19:54   #72
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I believe that people become who they are by processes of enculturation and socialization. I also believe that observers of other people cannot remove their own cultural lenses and 'objectively' study other people, classifying mental states, behaviors, and the like without falling back on what are ulimately culturally specific worldviews that are not any more correct than any other worldview, a higher form of thinking, and the like. Hence any qualitiative ideas about what goes on in a persons head should probably not be used as a means to make assumptions about the nature of the human organism in relation to thinking, and any quantitiative studies based on the qualtiative constructs about people's minds suffer from serious flaws from the beginning. I do not doubt the statistical evidence about the various relationships observed between variables produced by these ideas, I simply do not buy the interpretations that rely on genetic explanations.
So what youre essentially saying is that youre going to rule out all possible scientific evidence which could possibly contradict your beliefs on a priori grounds?

edit: your edit seems incompatible with your main post - either we can study these things or we cant. It's one thing to point out that the history of evolutionary psychology (and the human behavioral 'sciences' in general) is largely a history of shockingly bad research with very few attempts to control variables or account for cultural factors, but its quite another to claim that it isnt possible to do proper science in these fields at all.

Last edited by Nodrog; 10 Aug 2006 at 20:06.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:06   #73
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I believe that people become who they are by processes of enculturation and socialization. I also believe that observers of other people cannot remove their own cultural lenses and 'objectively' study other people, classifying mental states, behaviors, and the like without falling back on what are ulimately culturally specific worldviews that are not any more correct than any other worldview, a higher form of thinking, and the like.
that's because of your world view.

(can you please stop unnecessarily using large words. It doesn't help others understand your point and your love of them has made your posts farcical in the past.

It also seems ever so slightly ironic that a man trying to argue against the existence of intelligence is also, at the same time, trying to portray him self as intelligent)
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:14   #74
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So what youre essentially saying is that youre going to rule out all possible scientific evidence which could possibly contradict your beliefs on a priori grounds?

edit: your edit is incompatible with your main post. Either we can study these things or we cant.
I don't think we can study these things until the problem of cultural differences are addressed, which in my opinion are generally ignored. The problem is that many like MrL think the vast majority of cultural anthropology is 'bullocks' when it is no such thing. There is an inherent unwillingness to challenge our own ideas, especially when we consider them to be so incredibly superior to other world views. Our own 'accomplishments' in science, art, mathematics, etc, which I am not trying minimize, has dealt us a massive blow of cultural egomania. A human is a human, and the ideas about the world that a !Kung San Bush man or woman has are no less complex, no less amazing and brilliant than that of an educated westerner. The ability of the human being to collaborate with their community in forming a world view is amazing, regardless of the community. Having been introduced to ideas about differences in perspectives about natural & supernatural, ideas about sex and gender in various society, relationships and ideas about humans and their environments and the huge amount of differences in just the way people think about things and how the communicate I have personally been overwhelmed and stunned about things I have taken for granted in my own world. This is just from lectures from people who have done ethnographic work and from reading, I haven't even gone and lived within a non-western culture, although my wife is non western and I have had some interesting cultural encounters with her and her family.

But when it comes to biology and medicine, and cognitive science, all of this is ignored. So many ideas about our world are taken for granted, that others have called into question because of observations made about people living in different environments. Until this cultural egomania is addressed, and we stop discounting other culture's world views because those humans run around in loin cloths and hunt with spears, or live off whale fat in the arctic, we are doing our selves a great disservice. These communities are made of humans who are just like humans in the west, bar some minor physical variation that enabled those cultures to physically adapt to their environments (and these adaptations are very minor, the vast majority of of human adaptation are cultural). There is nothing more complex, in my opinion, than the interaction of a group of people and their environments, and every surviving culture is engaged in that relationship, and hence each of these cultures worldviews, oriented around enabling their continued survival in their physical and cultural environment, are ****ing fascinating beyond any possible conceivable place your imagination can take you.

Until this is addressed in the field of science, the science that attempts to study human minds, I call foul.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:25   #75
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

What do you mean by discounting their world views? I'm quite aware that the depth and variety of religious belief outside western culture is immense and I'm quite sure that marvellous techniques can be developed through trial and error across hundreds of generations but science itself is an edifice, laboriously constructed and occasionally and delightfully torn down in order to start anew. To say that certain things are not more complicated than others can be silly. Einstein's general theory of relativity is more complex than newton's theory of gravity because it is more specific. Equally both are more complicated than not having any sort of theory of gravity.

(Amazing and brilliant are fairly culturally loaded words, so I just concentrated on complex.)
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:46   #76
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

as neone knows i cant speel for love nor money but yet i have an iq of 146 pls someone explain this
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:50   #77
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What do you mean by discounting their world views? I'm quite aware that the depth and variety of religious belief outside western culture is immense and I'm quite sure that marvellous techniques can be developed through trial and error across hundreds of generations but science itself is an edifice, laboriously constructed and occasionally and delightfully torn down in order to start anew. To say that certain things are not more complicated than others can be silly. Einstein's general theory of relativity is more complex than newton's theory of gravity because it is more specific. Equally both are more complicated than not having any sort of theory of gravity.

(Amazing and brilliant are fairly culturally loaded words, so I just concentrated on complex.)
First of all, cultural differences aren't just about differences in head-ware, the nuances of religious performances, and canoeing technology. Cultural differences go far beyond that and affect how people see the world.

Also, I was not trying to minimize the accomplishments of science. A massive population filled with full time specialists who have been working for many centuries are going to be able to accomplish a whole lot. However complex the idea of general relativity may be, humans have devised other ideas about themselves and their experience that will probably seem very alien to you, yet are also very complex. The way they've ordered and classified things they have observed their environment, their experience. You may reject these ideas, think they are based on ignorance and religious superstition, but this is not so.

Ethnocentrism serves a great purpose, it maintains cultural cohesion, it protects people, because outside ideas can be be harmful - what works in one place may not work in another. And we are all soaked to the core with it, it's one of the few things that almost all humans share. However, considering what it is science aims to achieve, it will need to breach that boundary, and in the meantime probably transform itself. We will have to transform ourselves.

The best way to explain these these things is through example, by highlighting and comparing ideas of our own with those of other people. This is when people open to the idea will start having 'aha' moments (which are cool to have). I am too rusty at this point to be able to remember a relevant thing to contrast whenever I see something I think needs to be challenged. I do have a gigantic stack of books and articles left over from school that I sometimes go through, but I don't remember it all. Anyways, I like to describe my experience of being exposed to other cultures with Neo waking up from the Matrix, to the 'real' world. You'll probably have objections this, and it's just my personal experience here, but I would say that many of us, including myself - I am not in the 'know' or somehow special just because I sat in a classroom - are Alice walking around in wonderland.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:52   #78
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

You want evidence of intelligence?

I present myself.

A quality can exist in the absence of our ability to measure/quantify it. If you're just arguing that people have different concepts of intelligence, then fine, I agree. But that doesn't mean that I can't say that some people's brains work better than others'.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:54   #79
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphi
as neone knows i cant speel for love nor money but yet i have an iq of 146 pls someone explain this
IQ is like penis length. If you have to measure it to check it's large enough, the answer is 'no, it isn't'.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:59   #80
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
alice
If you could take you head out of your back passage long enough to see beyond the tiny grain that is the human sphere of existence, you will see that the real wonders are universal and fundamental things that will exist regardless of what happens in these trivial human affairs. The backdrop of our existence is utterly breathtaking. I don't understand how it is that you've managed to miss it.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 21:22   #81
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
If you could take you head out of your back passage long enough to see beyond the tiny grain that is the human sphere of existence, you will see that the real wonders are universal and fundamental things that will exist regardless of what happens in these trivial human affairs. The backdrop of our existence is utterly breathtaking. I don't understand how it is that you've managed to miss it.
I am not sure how this is relevant to the ongoing conversation and I think this is starting to lead into philosophy, which I am not good at, but I'll tell you what I think: You can't escape your humanity. You can't see without your eyes, you can't hear without your ears, you cannot think without dragging around all of your cultural baggage. The 'neutural' observer seeing beyond humanity, appreciating the cosmos for what they 'really are' isn't happening. Nothing happens apart from trivial human affairs because you cannot, in my opinion, separate the observer from the observation.

I feel like I am sounding like a broken record, and worse, maybe as a know-it-all, which isn't how I feel, and which isn't how I am trying to come across. As everyone here knows, I am no master of argument (but that should be no reason to discount everything I have said). So I am kind of tired of 'listening' to myself and am gonna just shut up for a bit. I think I've made my position as clear as I can.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 21:40   #82
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphi
as neone knows i cant speel for love nor money but yet i have an iq of 146 pls someone explain this
Online tests?

Of the type where you have to actively try to get below 120 I assume? .. and random guessing leads to around 125*?


* actual number from one of the more popular ones back in the days.. can't remember which though.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 21:52   #83
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by s|k
I am not sure how this is relevant to the ongoing conversation and I think this is starting to lead into philosophy, which I am not good at, but I'll tell you what I think: You can't escape your humanity. You can't see without your eyes, you can't hear without your ears, you cannot think without dragging around all of your cultural baggage. The 'neutural' observer seeing beyond humanity, appreciating the cosmos for what they 'really are' isn't happening. Nothing happens apart from trivial human affairs because you cannot, in my opinion, separate the observer from the observation.

I feel like I am sounding like a broken record, and worse, maybe as a know-it-all, which isn't how I feel, and which isn't how I am trying to come across. As everyone here knows, I am no master of argument (but that should be no reason to discount everything I have said). So I am kind of tired of 'listening' to myself and am gonna just shut up for a bit. I think I've made my position as clear as I can.
I am pointing out that our human differences aren't really anything so profound. I'm not talking about philosophy, I'm talking about physics, and what I said was no more or less relevant than what you said.

What *are* you trying to say about intelligence? Do you agree or disagree with my statement that some people's brains work better than other people's brains?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 21:53   #84
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Online tests?

Of the type where you have to actively try to get below 120 I assume? .. and random guessing leads to around 125*?


* actual number from one of the more popular ones back in the days.. can't remember which though.
That's a lie. I got 91 on thespark.com.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:09   #85
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
That's a lie. I got 91 on thespark.com.
And that refutes anything I said how?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:14   #86
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

thespark.com was 'one of the more popular ones back in the day'.

I was (still am) being facetious.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:25   #87
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

well, either way, is it true?

Did it go as low as 91, or did you just make it up?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:25   #88
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphi
as neone knows i cant speel for love nor money but yet i have an iq of 146 pls someone explain this
Misplaced decimal point?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:30   #89
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I believe that people become who they are by processes of enculturation and socialization. I also believe that observers of other people cannot remove their own cultural lenses and 'objectively' study other people, classifying mental states, behaviors, and the like without falling back on what are ulimately culturally specific worldviews that are not any more correct than any other worldview
Are you saying that all world views are equally correct?

or

All world views are equally valid?

or

All world views are on an equal moral footing?

What does "world views that are not any more correct than any other world view" mean?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:51   #90
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
well, either way, is it true?

Did it go as low as 91, or did you just make it up?
Have you ever done thespark.com IQ test?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:56   #91
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
What does "world views that are not any more correct than any other world view" mean?
Well, a world view that isn't more correct than any others, is by definition the worst one.. in this case it seems there are several ones in a tie for that position though.

Maybe he was referring to cats? I think cats have pretty horrid world-views. Splitting the world into 'things I try to kill' and 'things that exists to give me pleasure' is hardly a nice thing to do.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:57   #92
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
Have you ever done thespark.com IQ test?
Nope; never.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 23:16   #93
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Splitting the world into 'things I try to kill' and 'things that exists to give me pleasure' is hardly a nice thing to do.
So you don't like the Marines then?
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 23:24   #94
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Are you saying that all world views are equally correct?

or

All world views are equally valid?

or

All world views are on an equal moral footing?

What does "world views that are not any more correct than any other world view" mean?
The third is not the way I would say that. Moral judgements are made from the persepctive of your worldview and that complicates the evaluation. On the first two, that is basically what I am trying to say. Some people will accuse me of being hoplessly relativistic here, and there is truth in that accusation, but yes ideas about experiences are equally correct or incorrect. I guess they are ultimately equally valueless from an outsider perspective (which doesn't exist). My point is, that we do ourselves a disservice by thinking so highly of our own views that we unquestionably take a lot of things for granted that can be looked at in alternative ways.

Ultimately my point is about the diversity of human thought, and how important that is if we ever want to understand ourselves. The concept of intelligence in its popular incarnation is so far far away from reaching a reconciliation with cross cultural studies that it is a hopeless endeavor. The idea of intelligence is one of those artifacts of western culture that is prime example of our self glorification. It is a measuring stick of our own image, our own ideal and we compare each other and everyone else to it and then congratulate ourselves on how much we resemble ourselves.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 02:23   #95
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. You don't understand the word dichotomy at all do you?
Well I had to go look it up but now that I think about the word does fit. Before this point in my life I would not have even considered the idea that God created us. So this stage in my life left me divided between a slightly creationist view and an evolutionist view.

di·chot·o·my ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-kt-m)
n. pl. di·chot·o·mies
Division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions: “the dichotomy of the one and the many” (Louis Auchincloss).
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 02:35   #96
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The first couple of years of life are incredibly important, so this doesnt really provide evidence for anything. Theres also the possibility that other people picked up your fathers mannerisms and transmitted them onto you, or that your mannerisms werent even that similar and you were just showing selective perception.

n=1 studies with no attempts to control variables can never really be evidence for genetic influence.
I purposely excluded the idea that the formative years are also crucial in development. I figured that someone would bring it up and you did.

I thought that my mannerisms were developed by association with my step father who I had know since I was 5. My point is that this point in my life provided the “crack the door open” to biology having some significance in who we are.

Most of the Gay & Lesbian argument (that I have heard) is that they were born that way and that being Gay or Lesbian was not a lifestyle choice. Odd that belief aligns more with creationism than with nurture or socialization ideas about development.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 02:44   #97
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Ultimately my point is about the diversity of human thought, and how important that is if we ever want to understand ourselves. The concept of intelligence in its popular incarnation is so far far away from reaching a reconciliation with cross cultural studies that it is a hopeless endeavor. The idea of intelligence is one of those artifacts of western culture that is prime example of our self glorification. It is a measuring stick of our own image, our own ideal and we compare each other and everyone else to it and then congratulate ourselves on how much we resemble ourselves.
Growing up I thought that intelligence was measurable while wisdom was more an embodiment of experience. So where does wisdom fit in the intelligence debate?

wis·dom ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wzdm)
n.
1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
2. Common sense; good judgment: “It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things” (Henry David Thoreau).
3. a. The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: “In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations” (Maya Angelou).
b. Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
4. A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.
5. Wisdom Bible. Wisdom of Solomon.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 03:33   #98
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

You've really got that copying and pasting down.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:10   #99
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

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Originally Posted by s|k
First of all, cultural differences aren't just about differences in head-ware, the nuances of religious performances, and canoeing technology. Cultural differences go far beyond that and affect how people see the world.
This is really just meaningless though. People see the world with their eyes. If you are actually talking about different causal explanations fine, but it's not like each "culture" has a specific set of explanations, unless you effectively break the word culture down to the word individual.

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However complex the idea of general relativity may be, humans have devised other ideas about themselves and their experience that will probably seem very alien to you, yet are also very complex. The way they've ordered and classified things they have observed their environment, their experience. You may reject these ideas, think they are based on ignorance and religious superstition, but this is not so.
I'm not really bothered by what other people believe. The only thing that bothers me is if they claim it's based on something it's not.

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Ethnocentrism serves a great purpose, it maintains cultural cohesion, it protects people, because outside ideas can be be harmful - what works in one place may not work in another. And we are all soaked to the core with it, it's one of the few things that almost all humans share. However, considering what it is science aims to achieve, it will need to breach that boundary, and in the meantime probably transform itself. We will have to transform ourselves.
I have zero interest in cultural cohesion.

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The best way to explain these these things is through example, by highlighting and comparing ideas of our own with those of other people. This is when people open to the idea will start having 'aha' moments (which are cool to have). I am too rusty at this point to be able to remember a relevant thing to contrast whenever I see something I think needs to be challenged. I do have a gigantic stack of books and articles left over from school that I sometimes go through, but I don't remember it all. Anyways, I like to describe my experience of being exposed to other cultures with Neo waking up from the Matrix, to the 'real' world. You'll probably have objections this, and it's just my personal experience here, but I would say that many of us, including myself - I am not in the 'know' or somehow special just because I sat in a classroom - are Alice walking around in wonderland.
This would be helpful if you started providing some examples, or even categories for what you're talking about.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:13   #100
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Re: Spelling equals intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
The third is not the way I would say that. Moral judgements are made from the persepctive of your worldview and that complicates the evaluation. On the first two, that is basically what I am trying to say. Some people will accuse me of being hoplessly relativistic here, and there is truth in that accusation, but yes ideas about experiences are equally correct or incorrect. I guess they are ultimately equally valueless from an outsider perspective (which doesn't exist). My point is, that we do ourselves a disservice by thinking so highly of our own views that we unquestionably take a lot of things for granted that can be looked at in alternative ways.
Is this sort of like "epistemologically speaking, you're not justified in claiming you know anything about the universe"?
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