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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 20:51   #51
Mighteh
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

well, the way i see it, everybody is quite equal, there is noone's point of view i will not consider while in argument. Clearly i know nothing about Travler's posting habbits nor would i go and spend my time researching it, and I dont think its that much of faux pas, tbh. Yes, given, history of one poster matters to some, yet i found jewels of thoughts in people that imo were incapable to produce any, let alone bright ones. I give everyone a free chance to speak their mind before jumping on it and prooving myself right (as, clearly, my oppinion is always a bit more important to me then any other.)

That is why i want someone to fully express themselves, if not only to truly trying to understand someone's point of view, but just to form my own, based on imformation recieved. without such, you cannot argue the point to the full extent of it.
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 20:58   #52
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
well, the way i see it, everybody is quite equal, there is noone's point of view i will not consider while in argument. Clearly i know nothing about Travler's posting habbits nor would i go and spend my time researching it, and I dont think its that much of faux pas, tbh. Yes, given, history of one poster matters to some, yet i found jewels of thoughts in people that imo were incapable to produce any, let alone bright ones. I give everyone a free chance to speak their mind before jumping on it and prooving myself right (as, clearly, my oppinion is always a bit more important to me then any other.)

That is why i want someone to fully express themselves, if not only to truly trying to understand someone's point of view, but just to form my own, based on imformation recieved. without such, you cannot argue the point to the full extent of it.
I think that you are preaching to the converted.

I also believe that you are in serious danger of alienating those who think as you do by trying to imply that you are the only one who thinks as you do.

(p.s. your grammar sucks dude)
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:04   #53
Mighteh
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I know, sorry bout that. esl etc... my main is Russian I am sure your russian grammar sucks just as bad.


And i never said "I am the only one who thinks like i do".

I tried to convey the point that to me, personally, most important point of view is, well, mine. As such the most important thing to do in a debate would be to form my own point of view making it as extensive as possible, relying on as many facts/statements/whatnot that was made.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:14   #54
Yahwe
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
I tried to convey the point that to me, personally, most important point of view is, well, mine. As such the most important thing to do in a debate would be to form my own point of view making it as extensive as possible, relying on as many facts/statements/whatnot that was made.
And therein lies the crux (my maine is English)

How would you define the word 'debate'?
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:23   #55
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

hmm...
Well, in my oppinion, debate is a form of interaction where 2 or moer parties represent their point of view, trying to sway other (sometimes opposing) parties to accept it and agree with it. Am i wrong ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:26   #56
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
We all are experts in Russian grammar.
In Soviet Russian, grammar writes you.
The best part of your post is your siggy.
I think that this joke is being used more then a cheap hooker down in Nevada.

How many times do I have to see/hear/watch it again untill people get over it. I dont even find it that funny. And i dont quite understand what it means. Can anyone really explain to me what that joke that everyone and their hamster uses ? I feel stupid, without sence of humor, and left out on some sort of point thats well beyond me atm.
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reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:33   #57
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I have spoken with him at great length and I must admit that I have not been able to work out which god he worships.

This is the effect of the illusion of monotheism, the fiction of religious unity.

To answer your question I object to the campaign. I would object if it were to be "40 reasons why shoes are good" or anything else. He doesn't engage in debate. He doesn't reply to posts. We have had lots of posters before who have done this and we have banned them all. I would hate to see Travler get away with it purely because he lies and claims that he is disliked because of his christianity.

The flaws are his own.
Its seems to me if you have blind fate, there is no debate. Rules are rules, god or no god.
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 21:39   #58
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
hmm...
Well, in my oppinion, debate is a form of interaction where 2 or moer parties represent their point of view, trying to sway other (sometimes opposing) parties to accept it and agree with it. Am i wrong ?
no you are not wrong.

your only lack of knowledge is in mere facts, unfortunately travler does not re-present his point of view. It is a failing that I find frustrating
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 22:00   #59
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

well then, I guess I will have to learn on my own mistakes.
Unfortunatly i refuse to think of someone based on what someone tells me about them, no matter how credible that person is. I find it only possible for me to know someone by what I actually witnessed myself. (and i aint gonna pull up all thems old posts by him and read through them. If i am gonna do that for every member of GD, i will, pretty much, have to read EVERYTHING that is in archives. )
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[Destiny] awaits, ex-[Omen]
Nothing on the top
but the bucket and the mop
And an illustrated book about birds
See alot up there
But dont be scared
who needs action, when you got words....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 22:06   #60
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
well then, I guess I will have to learn on my own mistakes.
Unfortunatly i refuse to think of someone based on what someone tells me about them, no matter how credible that person is. I find it only possible for me to know someone by what I actually witnessed myself. (and i aint gonna pull up all thems old posts by him and read through them. If i am gonna do that for every member of GD, i will, pretty much, have to read EVERYTHING that is in archives. )
Fair enough, you will learn tomorrow. But don't say I didn't warn you.

Btw, your quote of Kurt Cobain is actually a song Nirvana covered just for Nirvana Unplugged.
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 23:10   #61
Yahwe
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
I find it only possible for me to know someone by what I actually witnessed myself. (and i aint gonna pull up all thems old posts by him and read through them. If i am gonna do that for every member of GD, i will, pretty much, have to read EVERYTHING that is in archives. )
Well I would advise that you do actually do some research before posting here. I know that a lot of people find it valuable and I for one read GD intently for a long time before I posted on it.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. But I do think that assuming that I am I wrong (and that others are wrong) without looking at the evidence is a little arrogant.

I would very much like you to stay on GD and post here often. I do not think that being lazy in terms of research and being unjustifiably offensive is a good long term strategy.
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 23:39   #62
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

I tried rereading his posts with a Russian accent and it was much better. Perhaps if I tried the same with Travelers.........oh wait there was just the one.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 00:07   #63
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm glad you're a moderator on AD and not on here, as you don't appear to have gathered that the moderator's job is not to decide what kind of discussion lives or dies.
Quite, in your case, you clearly believed that all discussions should go ahead, then derailed them to the point where the discussion died anyway.

CLEVER


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Having said that, on GD the moderator's job certainly appears to be to not post for months.
See you in September.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 03:07   #64
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Well I would advise that you do actually do some research before posting here. I know that a lot of people find it valuable and I for one read GD intently for a long time before I posted on it.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. But I do think that assuming that I am I wrong (and that others are wrong) without looking at the evidence is a little arrogant.

I would very much like you to stay on GD and post here often. I do not think that being lazy in terms of research and being unjustifiably offensive is a good long term strategy.
well here is the thing. I randomly look through posts on GD here and there, read through posts, randomly find a point of view that is close to my own and refrain from posting (sometimes, some discussions i completly stay away from even getting a point of view).

now, this thread started with a decent post. At least from the first read. And then it was followed by "STFU, you lame POS. U never post anything good and you should just leave and never come back" (exaguration, ofc, forgive me) type of responces. and not one or two, as your ragular neighborhood trolls would normally jump on something like that anyways, but ALL of them. Its felt unrational (now i know that there had been reasons behind it) and just spitefull, tbh. And that happened to the thread i might have enjoyed ! tsk tsk tsk.
So i decided to make a post or two, just coz I felt its unfair, primarily to Travler, and to those who would read this post and find something of interest. Thats why i posted the way i did. (and, whew !, you people on GD have a rep point power !)

Anyhow, I am still hoping there would be a dignified responce from Travler, if he will even bother looking through this slue of posts. After all, we all should value eachother's freedom of speech. Let eveyone voice their oppinions and reserve the right to disagree with them. One way or another, posting replies is purely Travler's prerogative, this thread will either die (if it turns boring or there shall be no responce) or it might evolve into something that might surprise even the most hardcore GD peoples.
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And an illustrated book about birds
See alot up there
But dont be scared
who needs action, when you got words....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 03:11   #65
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Btw, your quote of Kurt Cobain is actually a song Nirvana covered just for Nirvana Unplugged.
oh, thank you for the brief moment of enlightenment (spelling ?)

I couldnt find (or, rather, bother looking) for original author. Not all unplugged songs were covers. I think this one was tho...

I just like the words. I might credit a wrong person for them, but i dont think humankind can ever give enough credit to Kurt. Thats just my personal oppinoin and whole another topic to discuss.
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[Destiny] awaits, ex-[Omen]
Nothing on the top
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And an illustrated book about birds
See alot up there
But dont be scared
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Quote:
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 07:30   #66
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

As I stated at the beggining I would only post once a day for 40 days. 40 Days is symbol of change through out the Bible so I don't plan on breaking that tradition. It also helps me time manage since I am quite a bit busier than expected this summer due to my greatest household helper jaunting off to Guadulara yesterday to visit his grandparents until August.

I though this was General Discussion and not an interrogation or a witch trial. I will attempt to respond to some pertinent questions but I don't think I can answer everyone. So here goes with day #2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Newton's Third Law, which is (ignoring Newton's claim that he argued them from first principles, because they only an approximation in many cases) an empirical approximation.
True that these principles only seem to apply under normal speeds and only with larger objects such as molecules and larger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's an incorrect interpretation of Newton III. It just states that if something starts moving, something else starts moving, because momentum is conserved.
Newtons principles also don't take into account stored or resonant energy within a body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
There's quite a few missing steps here, and, has been pointed out, this has been rejected as an argument for god by christian scholars for nearly a thousand years.
First I would like to point out that Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica was published in 1687. We are currently in the year 2006. By my calculations this would only indicate that the longest these Laws of Motion could be in debate is 319 years which is far short of the "nearly a thousand years" you indicated MrL_JaKiri.

My original thought was that at the beginning there was nothing, or non-existance. Since there is obviously something here now or existance if you will then at some point in time this change from nothing to something occurred. Some would say that moment was the "Big Bang."

I also thought of the idea of zero kelvin or absolute zero where there is no heat energy and nothing moves. Nothing would really exist since atoms could not function without the movement of the electrons around the protons and neutrons. What if the begging of time was zero kelvin? The non-universe could have existed is this non-existant state for trillions upon trillions of years before something acted upon it and created the known universe we have today. Scientist believe our Universe is actually growing. This website will explain the growing universe in greater detail than I can post:
http://www.astrosociety.org/educatio...universe3.html
Hopefully that will sufficiently argue both an expanding universe and and a 3 dimensional universe. Our universe is in 3 dimensions. Height, width, length. I have also heard some arguments that time is the 4th dimension. Newton observed that "Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and objects at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them." So at the beggining of time everything was at rest. God does not have to be one of the things in the 3 known dimensions and the 4th debatable dimension. God could exist in a 5th dimension and still be able to act as an outside force upon the 3 known dimensions since I personally believe that God exist outside of space and time being the Alpha and the Omega or the Beggining and the End. I think this next point should answer the circular continuance ideas I read in this thread. So here is what I would have originally posted for day two had I not had to stop and rebuke some points:

Continuing on with the truth that “There is a God,” I offer the following observation:

The proven notion of “cause and effect” concludes that you cannot have any effect without first having a cause. Every thing that exists currently is a result of a previous action because “nothing” cannot create “something.” In other words, without an initial cause there can be no effect. We can then deduce logically that to remove any cause is to remove its effect. Furthermore, it is impossible for an effect to be its own cause which would require it to exist prior to itself. Neither can there be an endless regression of cause and effect; thus, requiring there to be a first cause. Therefore, I submit to you that this “first cause” is God, and every actual thing is His effect.
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You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 09:35   #67
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I though this was General Discussion and not an interrogation or a witch trial. I will attempt to respond to some pertinent questions but I don't think I can answer everyone. So here goes with day #2.
So your "replies" amount to "Yeah, my argument was dumb lol" twice and then a willful misunderstanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
First I would like to point out that Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica was published in 1687. We are currently in the year 2006. By my calculations this would only indicate that the longest these Laws of Motion could be in debate is 319 years which is far short of the "nearly a thousand years" you indicated MrL_JaKiri.
The "First Mover" argument predates Newton, and was, among other things, roundly dismissed by Thomas Aquinas, who lived about 800 years ago. 800 years is, at least in my mad little world, 80% of a thousand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
My original thought was that at the beginning there was nothing, or non-existance. Since there is obviously something here now or existance if you will then at some point in time this change from nothing to something occurred.
Not necessarily. String Theory, at the moment, has suggested that other universes may start within our own, and manmade ones could, at some point be created. Something from something, in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I also thought of the idea of zero kelvin or absolute zero where there is no heat energy and nothing moves.
That's not what 0K means (the "nothing moves" part anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Nothing would really exist since atoms could not function without the movement of the electrons around the protons and neutrons.
Atoms can exist at 0K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What if the begging of time was zero kelvin? The non-universe could have existed is this non-existant state for trillions upon trillions of years before something acted upon it and created the known universe we have today.
Doesn't work. Forces still exist at 0K, you know.

Furthermore, as the big bang was by far the hottest thing ever to occur, it makes little sense to have it start as the coldest thing ever to occur then suddenly gain an enormous amount of heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Hopefully that will sufficiently argue both an expanding universe and and a 3 dimensional universe.
It didn't really argue anything about a three dimonsional universe, and the universe being three dimensional doesn't really have anything to do with what you're arguing. It's just putting more words in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Our universe is in 3 dimensions. Height, width, length. I have also heard some arguments that time is the 4th dimension.
Mathematically (with a constant of proportionality that becomes unity if you set the speed of light to 1) time and the physical dimensions are indeed the same, by Special Relativity (and other things, but SR has such an enormous amount of evidence for it, and a lack of argument against it, that it's by far the best example).

So, as far as we can measure, time is "the fourth dimension". Or the second one, or whatever. The label is entirely arbitrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Newton observed that "Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and objects at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them."
Can you stop basing your "arguments" upon Newton? As you say, he was working 300 odd years ago, science has moved on a tiny bit since then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So at the beggining of time everything was at rest. God does not have to be one of the things in the 3 known dimensions and the 4th debatable dimension. God could exist in a 5th dimension and still be able to act as an outside force upon the 3 known dimensions
Doesn't work, the existance of a (non-infinitisimal) fifth dimension would have experimental repurcussions, most notably when you're talking about force propogation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
since I personally believe that God exist outside of space and time being the Alpha and the Omega or the Beggining and the End. I think this next point should answer the circular continuance ideas I read in this thread. So here is what I would have originally posted for day two had I not had to stop and rebuke some points:
You didn't stop and rebuke anything. You agreed that your "infallible proof" was flawed, then danced about naked singing "tralalalala". You haven't addressed any of the issues brought up, other than to agree with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Continuing on with the truth that “There is a God,” I offer the following observation:
Circular logic ahoy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The proven notion of “cause and effect” concludes that you cannot have any effect without first having a cause. Every thing that exists currently is a result of a previous action because “nothing” cannot create “something.” In other words, without an initial cause there can be no effect. We can then deduce logically that to remove any cause is to remove its effect. Furthermore, it is impossible for an effect to be its own cause which would require it to exist prior to itself. Neither can there be an endless regression of cause and effect; thus, requiring there to be a first cause. Therefore, I submit to you that this “first cause” is God, and every actual thing is His effect.
This is exactly the same argument as the first one, and it STILL has been rejected by christian scholars.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 09:39   #68
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
Quite, in your case, you clearly believed that all discussions should go ahead, then derailed them to the point where the discussion died anyway.
The discussion had died anyway. There's only so much you can discuss a single, easily disproved, argument without any reply.

And now Travler's posted again (although I suspect this thread may be closed as he has shown only token willing to actually argue the point) it will start up again!
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 09:56   #69
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This is exactly the same argument as the first one, and it STILL has been rejected by christian scholars.
Of course it is, thats because he is reading from his "big book all about St Thomas Aquinas", which probably paraphrases the Five Arguments found in the Summa Theologiae.

I too have a big book about Thomas Aquinas, it's called Philosophy of Religion for Idiots.

The first argument on motion, and the second on causation are indeed exactly the same. The latter is a generalised analogy of the former. Most of the criticisms that apply to the former, unsurprisingly apply to the latter with equal force.

THe argument essentially goes:

(1) Causes must preceede effects.
(2) There are no infinite cause/effect chains.
===========
(3) Therefore there "must" be an entity outside the natural world which acts as a 'first cause'
===========
(4) Therefore God.


Needless to say, this argument can be used to 'proove' the big bang happened, or that the Flying Spagetti Monster created the Universe.

It is dated, it is fallicious, and yes Aquinas knew (3) does not proove (4)


Now children, tomorrows infallible undeniable argument for the existance of God is called "The Argument from Contingency". It has just about as many holes as swiss cheese, but let us endure it nonetheless.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 10:00   #70
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This is exactly the same argument as the first one, and it STILL has been rejected by christian scholars.
Ah but all human beings have two legs, therefore the human race has two legs.


Now shut up and hand over your legs you reality-defying heathen
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 13:24   #71
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Cause and effect
I did shorten this a bit, as it seemed pointless to quote your entire post for a one-line question. But here goes:

If there must be a cause for all effects, what caused God? If nothing caused God, there must not be a cause for all effects and your argument about cause and effect is void, isn't it?

I don't know much about the Big Bang, or the String theory, so this could well be flawed. If that is the case, I apologize.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 13:48   #72
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I did shorten this a bit, as it seemed pointless to quote your entire post for a one-line question. But here goes:

If there must be a cause for all effects, what caused God? If nothing caused God, there must not be a cause for all effects and your argument about cause and effect is void, isn't it?

I don't know much about the Big Bang, or the String theory, so this could well be flawed. If that is the case, I apologize.
No that's nonsense.

"God" in this sense is a placeholder for something special that acts as the first cause.
God is not the effect of anything, she is special.

If you do not understand this, then you have failed to comprehend the argument.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 14:06   #73
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
No that's nonsense.

"God" in this sense is a placeholder for something special that acts as the first cause.
God is not the effect of anything, she is special.

If you do not understand this, then you have failed to comprehend the argument.
That said there is no reason for assuming "god". You could quite easily assume "universe", and in fact occam's razor would tend towards supporting the later (in terms of assuming things that is).
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 14:38   #74
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

well, here is what i think.

0K is practically unreachable temperature.
Besides movement of electrons, there are other forces in effect there that create perpetual motion in all four dimensions. Gravity for one, every atom has initial gravity pull. After 2 or more gravity pulls of atoms intersect, they combine their gravity forces into one, doub ling its strength and attacting more and more atoms... Its kind of a neverending cycle. Technically, if there is 0 friction and 0 opposing forces, even the minimal force will eventually atract even the furthest of atoms.

Ultimatly, existance of matter itself produces motion. So for the initial cause of big bang i nominate gravity, rather then God. To me, at least, it makes more sence.

ofcourse, my oppinions are subjective and i do not have extencive research on he subject, such as actually reading Aquinas. I just draw most logical conclusions out of basic information on physics that i still remember.

The argument presented to me relies too much on inability of matter t exist in absolute zero. however, the conclusion that before big bang there truly was absolute zero in the universe is drawn out without any factual basis and is a mere speculation, in essence. Besides, it does not really make sence to me, as i know, in the universe that i know about, be it current expanding, or pre bang collapsing, forces of universal physics still have to work. To have entire universe in absolute zero at any time would be anomalous.
As such i do not accept the true First Reason as anyuthing else except Gravity.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 14:44   #75
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Mighteh
After 2 or more gravity pulls of atoms intersect, they combine their gravity forces into one, doub ling its strength and attacting more and more atoms... Its kind of a neverending cycle. Technically, if there is 0 friction and 0 opposing forces, even the minimal force will eventually atract even the furthest of atoms.
This really makes very little sense. Are you perhaps forgetting the other forces? That said at 10-31 seconds or something like that after the big bang the forces were still unified. What exactly are you referring to?
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 14:55   #76
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

what i meant is that gravity field of any 2 objects, if united, are added to eachother. So if gravity of one object atracts another object, the gravity pull of initial object is increased to be equal of summ of field of both objects. Making a bigger, stronger gravity field that would affect more objects.

Pardon me if i am not clear in my posts. I had been told i am hard to understand sometimes.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 15:19   #77
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

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Originally Posted by Mighteh
what i meant is that gravity field of any 2 objects, if united, are added to eachother. So if gravity of one object atracts another object, the gravity pull of initial object is increased to be equal of summ of field of both objects. Making a bigger, stronger gravity field that would affect more objects.
A very newtonian idea I'm sure. However you are ignoring the nuclear forces. Subatomically speaking gravity is only slightly less relevant than swiss cheese.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 15:23   #78
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

true. I am unsure, however, how absolute zero affect particles subatomically. I am sorry. I am sure that gravity is not the only constant force theoretically playing a difference in the moment of creation. Given.
Newtonian way of thinking is, kinda, simplified and as such, easier to understand and makes more sence then harder to observe subatomic processes. We can all throw something up to see it go down. But, for example, I, personally, dont wanna strip any hydrogen molecules off of its protons.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 15:33   #79
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
true. I am unsure, however, how absolute zero affect particles subatomically. I am sorry. I am sure that gravity is not the only constant force theoretically playing a difference in the moment of creation. Given.
It means they're not moving, non-quantum-mechanically speaking. And to talk of gravity existing as an independent force at the moment of the big bang is getting rather ahead of yourself.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 16:50   #80
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Traveler,

God cannont be proven. If god could be proven then the whole concept of faith would be meaningless and, if I recall correctly, the Bible made faith a rather important issue.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 17:11   #81
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
As I stated at the beggining I would only post once a day for 40 days. 40 Days is symbol of change through out the Bible so I don't plan on breaking that tradition. It also helps me time manage since I am quite a bit busier than expected this summer due to my greatest household helper jaunting off to Guadulara yesterday to visit his grandparents until August.
I don't give a **** about your symbolism. Tradition? Is there a Christian tradition of posting on forums?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I though this was General Discussion and not an interrogation or a witch trial.
Here he is, thinking he's being persecuted for his beliefs again, and not for being generally ignorant. Incidentally, the witches were burned by Christians.

I predict that this thread will end with it being either locked, and/or Travler banned (hopefully). By the time it is all through, I predict the man will have thouroughly have 0 credibility left, and look like the biggest jackass to grace GD since TSM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
... a lot of rubbish...
You see what Travler is doing here is inventing his own obtuse understanding of what he's read in Popular Science magazines, with what's in the bible. just making it up as he goes along. He's mixing science and biblical myth, and has completely gone off the deep end here, abandoned the creation story and created some sort of amalgamation of his own in order to explain one of these fallible 'proofs.'

The moment Travler began his counter argument and began talking about Kelvins, the big ban, the expansion of space, and using what 'scientists' have said as evidence, he's shot himself in the foot. Now how does any of that fit in with creation story Travler? Are you just going to pick and chose the observations in science that suit whatever you have to say at any particular point in time, or are you embracing science, giving it credence? If so, let's talk about the formation of the solar system. Let's talk about 7 days of creation, where there was night then day then a firmament and whatever the **** else the gobbelty bullshit genesis is rife with. Let's talk about women being made from a rib, let's talk about being swallowed by a fish for three days, let's talk about 'stopping the sun.' Hmm k.

Don't use science. You don't believe in it, and you don't understand it. You're just making shit up as you go along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Continuing on with the truth that “There is a God,” I offer the following observation:

The proven notion of “cause and effect” concludes that you cannot have any effect without first having a cause. Every thing that exists currently is a result of a previous action because “nothing” cannot create “something.” In other words, without an initial cause there can be no effect. We can then deduce logically that to remove any cause is to remove its effect. Furthermore, it is impossible for an effect to be its own cause which would require it to exist prior to itself. Neither can there be an endless regression of cause and effect; thus, requiring there to be a first cause. .
I submit to you that without chickens there can be no eggs, and without eggs there can be no chickens. The chicken, cannot be without an egg, and an egg, cannot exist without a chicken. However, because both chickens and eggs exist, at some point there must have been a half chicken half egg creature which spawned from an eggplant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Therefore, I submit to you that this “first cause” is God, and every actual thing is His effect.
I submit to you that this first cause is my penis, which existed before all else.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 17:24   #82
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

well, about 7 days of creation.

Some time ago i spoke to a some sort of a theological scholar, who was supporting the 7 days idea.
The basis for his suport was as follows:
Considering before creation of the earth the meaning of a "day" was not very clearly defined, he said that "7 days" were, in fact (), 7 extremly long periods of time, epochs of some sort, during the time of which processes described in bible took place. We all know, using carbon analisys, that "Creation" took longer then 7 "earth" days. I am not supporting the theory of 7 days either. But at least it makes a nominal amount of sence
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 17:32   #83
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
well, about 7 days of creation.

Some time ago i spoke to a some sort of a theological scholar, who was supporting the 7 days idea.
The basis for his suport was as follows:
Considering before creation of the earth the meaning of a "day" was not very clearly defined, he said that "7 days" were, in fact (), 7 extremly long periods of time, epochs of some sort, during the time of which processes described in bible took place. We all know, using carbon analisys, that "Creation" took longer then 7 "earth" days. I am not supporting the theory of 7 days either. But at least it makes a nominal amount of sence
No, actually it doesn't make a lot of sense. You see this an example of Christians negotiating their beliefs with science. Reinterpretations, fudging, etc are just hallmarks of people trying to reconcile empirical evidence with the fiction and myth once taken for granted. Prior to all of this enourmous amount of evidence being revealed, your theological scholar would have been burned at the stake for suggesting that a day meant anything other than a day.

You have to let the evidence tell the story, and not warp and twist the evidence so that it fits whatever story you already want to believe.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 17:39   #84
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

There's a lot in the bible that makes sense if you look into it.
In the "I can see why people around 3000 years ago would think like that" kind of way.
It doesn't have anything to do with a God or anything though.

as you seem to be interested in it a bit I suggest reading this book as I found it very interesting and quite good history lessons for the ancient biblical time.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 17:46   #85
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
There's a lot in the bible that makes sense if you look into it.
In the "I can see why people around 3000 years ago would think like that" kind of way.
It doesn't have anything to do with a God or anything though.

as you seem to be interested in it a bit I suggest reading this book as I found it very interesting and quite good history lessons for the ancient biblical time.
before i clicked that link i was thinking "oh god, this isn't going to be Asimov's Guide, is it?"




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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 18:01   #86
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

It is day two. I demand a second attempt at infallible proof and this one better be good.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 18:06   #87
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It is day two. I demand a second attempt at infallible proof and this one better be good.
He's already done it. Read up.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 18:12   #88
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
He's already done it. Read up.
Hmm...

Isn't that just rebuttal about point one?

I want a totally new new infallible proof. I don't want this to become a 40 day argument about the same point.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:25   #89
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
No, actually it doesn't make a lot of sense. You see this an example of Christians negotiating their beliefs with science. Reinterpretations, fudging, etc are just hallmarks of people trying to reconcile empirical evidence with the fiction and myth once taken for granted. Prior to all of this enourmous amount of evidence being revealed, your theological scholar would have been burned at the stake for suggesting that a day meant anything other than a day.

You have to let the evidence tell the story, and not warp and twist the evidence so that it fits whatever story you already want to believe.
Quite false: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusti...Hippo#Creation

I'd really appreciate it if you'd temper your replies with some courtesy. I don't think Travler deserves the constant bile, surely?
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:26   #90
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Isn't that just rebuttal about point one?
When he was responding to me, it was an attempt at a rebuttal. When he was not, it was an attempt at a second "infallible" proof.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:27   #91
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
There's a lot in the bible that makes sense if you look into it.
In the "I can see why people around 3000 years ago would think like that" kind of way.
It doesn't have anything to do with a God or anything though.

as you seem to be interested in it a bit I suggest reading this book as I found it very interesting and quite good history lessons for the ancient biblical time.
I'd suggest that biblical ethical structures (for example), the centrality of concepts such as authority, duty, humility and love, are very much to do with the idea of God.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:30   #92
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
That interpretation of Genesis is only approaching correct if you're being extremely generous.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:32   #93
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That interpretation of Genesis is only approaching correct if you're being extremely generous.
That is absolutely not my point; it is, rather, that the idea of a non-literal interpretation of Genesis, a mythical or metaphorical or spiritual approach, is not a new phenomenon, and certainly did not accompany the advent of modern science.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:33   #94
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
before i clicked that link i was thinking "oh god, this isn't going to be Asimov's Guide, is it?"
Sorry

I just realised I've probably psoted that in every God thread we've had recently...
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 19:36   #95
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
That is absolutely not my point; it is, rather, that the idea of a non-literal interpretation of Genesis, a mythical or metaphorical or spiritual approach, is not a new phenomenon, and certainly did not accompany the advent of modern science.
That is certainly true; a literal interpretation of genesis may in fact be a more modern popularisation.

It is also true, however, that a lot of the bible is contrary to things we can observe; how people decide what bits to believe and which bits to dismiss whilst being intellectually honest remains a mystery to me.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 20:23   #96
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
This doesn't invalidate my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
I'd really appreciate it if you'd temper your replies with some courtesy. I don't think Travler deserves the constant bile, surely?
I would appreciate it if Travler would stop his high-mindedness, his self-righteousness, his 'I-am-holier-than-all-of-you-and-dont-I-know-it', his silly pretentions to know everything, to be able to refute every argument. I would appreciate it if he were more humble, isn't that a Christian value? To be humble?

HEY LOOK AT ME, LOOK HOW HUMBLE I AM. I AM SO HUMBLE I AM GOING TO HEAVEN FOR SURE.

I want travler to stop being a troll and an attention whore. I want him to be open to the possibility that there is no god and that he can be wrong. I am open to the possibility of anything, I like to think so, at least, including the existence of things that can't be explained, because frankly I know very well that science hasn't been able to explain everything. I want him to start reading the replies people put effort into, for his sake. I want him to do a lot of things. And you want me to change. We all want things. I bet Lebanon doesn't want to be bombed right now, but here we are, wanting things.

On a side note, I feel pretty uncomfortable with my own tone and I realize I'm a bit of a dick and I do make an effort to tone down what I say (you should see the many posts I haven't submitted (or have deleted after submission - as the mods might testify to - or have revised before submission)). I'm at conflict with myself over this, and I appreciate your gesture, and always Boogster, you make pro-Christian arguments, and I think I have been pretty temperate with you.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 20:39   #97
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

My main annoyance with travler is his complete lack of argument.

And why do Christians always avoid all the good questions? or pretend to answer a completely different question?

I'm going to post my questions from another thread as they were ignored there:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I understand why you believe there is a higher power and in a way I do too. I would call myself an agnostic though.
What I don't understand is why you think that the higher power is the one described by Christian (or jewish etc) teachings.
If, for example, there was some mass miracle on a global scale that everyone witnessed and was ultimate proof there is a higher power watching over us, what makes you think it is definately the Christian God and not some other?

It really confuses me how people can make that illogical step between "wow that miracle is undeniable proof there is a God" and "The God must be the one described in the bible and therefore the whole bible must be true"

Surely it's all about interpretation and everyone will interpret it in a different way and therefore all religions are false?
Quote:
1. Why Christian and not another religion?
2. How the hell can you think that a book is the basis for a belief system?
3. Maybe another God resurrected Jesus and you guys are still wrong.
4. Maybe Jesus wasn't resurrected at all but the few guys that had been around him were so distraught that he was killed that one of them put on a fake beard and pretended he was jesus and everyone believed him.
Also, Travler tries to use Bible scriptures as proof - "it said it in the bible so God must exist" IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.
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Unread 14 Jul 2006, 21:38   #98
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
No that's nonsense.

"God" in this sense is a placeholder for something special that acts as the first cause.
God is not the effect of anything, she is special.

If you do not understand this, then you have failed to comprehend the argument.
No, what qebab said is entirely correct. If everything must have a cause then there is, by definition, no 'first cause'. If your argument starts with P as a premises and has ¬P as a conclusion, then it is invalid regardless of the intermediate steps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_Jakiri
Mathematically (with a constant of proportionality that becomes unity if you set the speed of light to 1) time and the physical dimensions are indeed the same, by Special Relativity (and other things, but SR has such an enormous amount of evidence for it, and a lack of argument against it, that it's by far the best example).

So, as far as we can measure, time is "the fourth dimension". Or the second one, or whatever. The label is entirely arbitrary.
Meh, maths isnt everything; the fact you can create a simpler mathematical model by assuming X doesnt necessarily imply that X is real -there are quite obvious differences between time and the physical dimensions which are easily perceivable by anyone just by looking around. In any case, time doesnt function exactly like the spatial dimensions within Minkowski space since it has a different sign in the metric signature. 3+1, not 4.

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Jul 2006 at 22:04.
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 01:24   #99
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

another reason for banning travler is that he encourages boogster to say stupid things
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Unread 15 Jul 2006, 04:40   #100
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Re: 40 Days of Infallible Proofs

Isnt jesus dead?

I mean, cant we just get over it.

We did with elvis.
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