Round 10 "The Death of Real Alliances"

[Faberius]

Welcome to the in game solidification of battlegroups and regional control centres. This "solution" to the perfectly natural politics of blocking is just a knee jerk solution made without the consultation of either the broader Planetarion community or with alliance leaders (who directly affect the political direction of the round).

I am opposed to any control of my alliance being relinquished to Planetarion in return for strategic parity. It amounts to simple extortion. This is not a solution to blocking, it is a solution to divide alliances into battlegroups permanently.

Alliances and powerblocks will evolve to meet the time travel formula, as they will eventually evolve to surpass whatever limitations that the creator(s) hope to put on them. There will be blocking, there will be cooperation, how can you fight human nature?

No. This is a simple waste of time and coding energies which should be used towards attracting new players instead of alienating alliance leadership. I will fight this vigerously, because I'm playing for my alliance, and I'm playing for the politics that Planetarion creates. Stifle the energies that both alliances and the politics draw on to survive and you stifle the game.

[Obfuscator]

Battlegroups, as they currently are, do not have any advantage over alliances in using the regional travel times. In fact, this switch up could be the perfect opportunity for alliances to reassert themselves offensively, as they will have the potential to offer both defense of the best sort, as well as organizational control for attacks. Battlegroups will only be able to offer people both if they become alliances.

These changes don't mean an end to meaningful politics, or alliances as we know them. But they will give significant advantages to people who organize well within the structure....which will make it harder to create large alliances with wings, as well as powerblocks. Quite simply, the better organized, and more elite factions of such organizations will quickly capitalize on their advantages. Temporary strategic alliances will be more advantageous to most alliances in such a universe, and will be a lot more fun for everyone.

Control of alliances rests with the alliance's commanders, as it always has. If your alliance is worth anything, it will be able to adapt. If not, then you'll end up in some alliance that can.

[Kal]

I don;t quite see how its really different than c/p

This round i'm running a c-alliance and a p-alliance

I freely admit that becuase of that I am tending to attack with them instead of with NoS, however tha would be the same really at the start of any round as u need to atatck in c/p to gain control.

As far as defence is concerned I allways check if NoS needs defence before sending in c/p

I don;t see how this would change in the new system - in fact its possible I would only ever defend my allaince unless someone is very close in physical location to me.

As to attacks, sure people will spend some time taking control of their local area, making agreements in it, and killing thoose that don't agree - but thtas really on different form how things are now - especially as they have said that the travel times changes will only be a few ticks.

[Kjeldoran]

I don't get this major fuss. Every round and every new announcement of Spinner and his crew, most of us first start to bitch and scream they will leave but after every alliance succeeds in surviving those new rules etc and they just simply addapt to the new situation.

I don't see why any alliance can't adapt to these changes, you'd have to be a pretty ****y alliance if you couldn't and atleast they TRY to make blocks dissapear.

So I suggest you stop screaming you'll quit ( cause let's face it, you won't) and maybe do the efforts to make your alliance prepared for these changes.

rgds Kj

[LordNieminen]

hmmm... I could not care less personally about the changes to alliances etc.. i'm more concerned if it's random... can't be arsed to pay for luck determined round from the start, got lucky this r9.5 random placement but i doubt i'll have samekind of luck for next round.

[Gerbie]

If we can't get in the winning powerblock for round 10 then I see no other option then to dissolve TFD-PA. I'm not going to play another ruined game again.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Kjeldoran
I don't get this major fuss. Every round and every new announcement of Spinner and his crew, most of us first start to bitch and scream they will leave but after every alliance succeeds in surviving those new rules etc and they just simply addapt to the new situation.

'You can't make xan more expensive!' is a little more 'small world' than the changes being discussed about round 10.

[Nadar]

What is the point of introducing a lot new features that makes it much more complicated for new players to understand the game? They just give up and leave then. pld pa-crew, u killed planetarion

[WipeOut]

My personal perception is that (and forgive me here Nadar) making planetarion more complex will give it the edge it needs to win the competition with other simular online games. It is still far from EVE's complexity, but it is at least worth the challenge, and that is, at least for intellectual prospective players, an incentive to join the community and play the game. If one finds this game too hard to comprehend, because of some changes in traveltime and alliance influence, I suggest you should perhaps go back and kill aliens in Doom or any other brainless 'shoot'em up'.

I personally welcome the changes made, especially as this gives people a new challenge, it 'forces' players to meet new people due to having the need to switch alliance if their alliance prooves incapable of comprehending and adapting the new situation.

Some people seem to be reluctant, others a bit scared, as they see their political position within this game on the gamble, they fear that they would suddenly loose their 'power' and 'fame'...

It is totally up to those people, wether or not they maintain their position within the game. It is all about adapting the changes in your (alliance's) advantage. And if one gives it a little bit of thought, it will come clear that the situation is different, but certainly not less attractive, and not impossible to use in your alliance's advantage.

I think this is just what planetarion needs.

Originally posted by Obfuscator
Control of alliances rests with the alliance's commanders, as it always has. If your alliance is worth anything, it will be able to adapt. If not, then you'll end up in some alliance that can.

eventhough creators deserve limited respect for trying to impliment new features into this game to keep it alive for a round or two more, they also deserve a real beating by their parents for ruining the little leftovers we have left called "communities".

[WipeOut]

Originally posted by MikeHunt
eventhough creators deserve limited respect for trying to impliment new features into this game to keep it alive for a round or two more, they also deserve a real beating by their parents for ruining the little leftovers we have left called "communities".

This is exactly what is Planetarion's current problem, 'oldtimers' (as you like to call yourself) being reluctant to join new communities within the game, being reluctant to have other (new?) players join their communities...

Etcetara.

Think about it.

Originally posted by WipeOut
This is exactly what is Planetarion's current problem, 'oldtimers' (as you like to call yourself) being reluctant to join new communities within the game, being reluctant to have other (new?) players join their communities...

Etcetara.

Think about it.

lets be realistic.
How many of the current players play for the game only?
most play to "stay together" with friends,and try to have some fun in a game,some of us have been playing since round 1. (and you have to admit,its getting a tad tedious and dull).

Contra

How many new players we get per round?
(im talking about actual players,not people who run multiple planets,or who signup 2 planets (one with his login detail,and one with a close friends,so incase he get "found out",his "friend" says he ran it )

The planetarion game is beeing kept floating (but just barly) by the "oldtimers". Most people dont mind going into new communities as far as alliances go, hell,people only go into alliances to get defence,nothing else,as all "real" alliances already left pa a few rounds ago.

But putting people into groups by force ruins some of the fun for those players,and limiting the ammount of time they can spend with their friends,doing anything from defence to attacks together.

With all the new rules and "tweaks" planetarion has gotten trough the last rounds, its starting to look less like a wargame,and more like a Sim for children.

I been in top250 as far back as i can remember,i never finshed top10, nor do i have any intrest in doing so, but i dont see why you should punish the people who actualy do get it to the top,time after time,cause they work hard at something.

They deserve it,and its childish to ruin it for the people who take the game "serious" (for some od reason), just so you can ad a few more players.

In the end you will end up with massive losses of the "old" players,and a few gains from new ones. Its about time creators got it into their heads that the losses they will get due to drastical changes will be more then the gain.

[WipeOut]

Originally posted by MikeHunt
lets be realistic.

Let us indeed be exactly that, shall we?

How many of the current players play for the game only?
most play to "stay together" with friends,and try to have some fun in a game,some of us have been playing since round 1. (and you have to admit,its getting a tad tedious and dull).

Realisticly, the old players exceed the community their alliance provides, they stick with long-time friends, and other people they have met over the rounds. I, for instance, have a vast amount of friends coming from diverse origins alliance-wise.

Friendship, is something going beyond your (current) alliance, it is the main reason most of the 'oldtimers' play this game. The fact that friends reside in other alliances, has never stopped me personally from chatting/meeting them. I wholeheartedly hope this counts for you as well, as I do not classify your narrow minded.

Contra

How many new players we get per round?
(im talking about actual players,not people who run multiple planets,or who signup 2 planets (one with his login detail,and one with a close friends,so incase he get "found out",his "friend" says he ran it )

Yes, in the past, more players left and few joined planetarion. One of the main reasons for this is beyond doubt the cost involved, which simply makes it for numerous people impossible to play. Others simply refuse to pay for something, which can be found (simular) elsewhere for no cost.

Another reason many of the rookie players leave after they joined, is the fact that is nearly impossible for them to join one of the 'better' alliances, due to our stubborn refusal of admitting 'youngsters' to our oh so cool superalliances.

Realisticly, (and we wanted to be that, correct/) the loss of the old players is less of a problem in comparison to the loss of those that do decide to join. It is our fault this happens, as all we do is take the few roid they get instantly, and by that take away their fun, which in turn results in them not signing up again for the round after.

Now, the eta advantage, perhaps, makes it easier for (good) rookies to join the good alliances, due to them being in their 'region'. Is this not, realistically, something which in the long term will turn out to be an advantage for planetarion as a whole?

It will logically result in the new players staying, inviting friends, due to them having had a realtively nice round. This in turn, results in more and more people joining (word of mouth advertisement). The more people join, the more players we get, the more roids we can collect, the less stagnation occurs.

The planetarion game is beeing kept floating (but just barly) by the "oldtimers". Most people dont mind going into new communities as far as alliances go, hell,people only go into alliances to get defence,nothing else,as all "real" alliances already left pa a few rounds ago.

Define 'real alliances'.

I agree that people should not be reluctant to join new communites, as this does not result in their old community vanishing at all. I totally agree with this, the community is what pa is about, but what is your point?

But putting people into groups by force ruins some of the fun for those players,and limiting the ammount of time they can spend with their friends,doing anything from defence to attacks together.

I simply pitty you if your 'friendship' with other people in this community evolves around attacking and defending only. I personally have had great fun attacking some of my best friends over the past few rounds... But perhaps our perception of 'friendship' differs.

With all the new rules and "tweaks" planetarion has gotten trough the last rounds, its starting to look less like a wargame,and more like a Sim for children.

I see no logic in this statement at all. Elaborate, and I shall respond.

I been in top250 as far back as i can remember,i never finshed top10, nor do i have any intrest in doing so, but i dont see why you should punish the people who actualy do get it to the top,time after time,cause they work hard at something.

Go you.

You rightly imply that the people finishing top round after round would never had managed to do so without help from others. But what makes you believe that these people could not pull this off by cooperating with different people?

They deserve it,and its childish to ruin it for the people who take the game "serious" (for some od reason), just so you can ad a few more players.

I would rather see 50% of these people leaving the game, for the childish (??!) behaviour of pa crew, if that would bring a few k new players to this community.

It might not have come to your attention yet, but especially AD, and the rest of pa community, have become blatantly dull in the past rounds. Mainly because the same people post the same rubbish, hidden in a nice wrap, day after day, week after week, round after round. I would die to see some fresh blood in this community. But concluding from your posting, one could think you are in favour of dullness?

In the end you will end up with massive losses of the "old" players,and a few gains from new ones. Its about time creators got it into their heads that the losses they will get due to drastical changes will be more then the gain.

I beg to differ, I personally think the gain will be a lot higher than the loss. For the reasons of dullness mentioned above.

[LORD-NIKO]

Tbh i like the idea

all crap about alliance attacks?? heh i dont c the problem there..

its easy to solve

the alliances sets up various attack rooms..
add close by people in there..

like: group1 c1-10
group2 c11-20
etc..

only problem can be that a good active player ends in a sector with halfidling ****heads.. hehe

cba to quote the things you said,but here is answers to some of the "questions" you asked me:

1) real alliances, good hardworking hardcore alliances : legion, Fury & Xanadu.
Eventhough alliances like nos and titans have done semigood in a few rounds,they never ammounted to mutch.
NoS went to pots when all the "good players" left ages ago. (cant remember when,but i was laughin hard when i read side up and down with "i quit/leave" threads on nos boards.
Titans had some fairly good players,but most their "power" lies in forum trolls like mad,parracidda,and scouse. They bitch and moan more then a 40year old housewife proclaiming their omipotance in the planetarion game.
They had some rocking players (hello loki), good officers (webangel etc),but also alot of incompitent bastards like mad.


2) People attack and defend eachother eventhough they are friends,your right in that. But most players play WITH their friends in one way or another. The new traveltimes etc in the universe will "split" it up in 3 or so parts, making it like miniuniverses. In other words defending or attacking friends on the other side of the universe will be "impossible" or "undesired" cause of the high eta.
I personaly dont see any joy in that at all.


3) By tweaks and fkups im refering to races,caprates, roidworth, 15% limit etc. The game is turning more into a childrens micromanagement game then a actual wargame. In war the winner takes all (more or less),so i personaly dont see anything wrong with people roiding me to smitherines. Leaving me sitting nekkid on my one roid holding a 1inch metal fragment from the last of my ships. Hell, its war,your supposed to have the exitent: win gloriously or die ripped of everything.

4) Use dictionary.com, easyer.

5) Saying planetarion will gain a few thousand players is realy naive. Back in the days when planetarion came out,it was groundbreaking, i remember when i started playing back in 2000, i was amazed at what they pulled trough,eventhough r1 ticks werent stable

a browser game doesnt "cut" it for younger people anymore. They want fancy graphics, fast action. Not to sit infront of their computer,launching a ship on monday,that lands 3 weeks from now on wedensday!

most of the players are old, they (like me) had great fun before "computers" became common,and if they were lucky,they sat athome playing "pong" on their tv screen in black/white

Just hardcoding into the game who you can be with,and who you cant,plus adding some more anticheat things wont save the game. It doesnt need to be made more difficult,it needs to be simpler for new people to use. Newcommers will have a ****ty time with the new alliance signups as they have no chance compared to the 150 people who signup together and who know the game inside out!

[Silva baby]

since this is about rd 10 lets concentrate on the main objectives of rd 10 shall we?
rd 10 is about kickstarting planetarion..........this means new ppl, new features new thsi new that........
but most would agree new ppl would be great thing~

now with this new travel time thingy i see many problems. And all of it is realted to newbies. Lets say the basis of 10k ppl join up ( thats being optimistic btw) and by my counts at least 3k would be newbies? maybe less maybe more correct me if u think i'm wrong. But either way 3k of ppl with no alliance lyke half my current galaxy no knowledge of irc etc.......
to quote Spinner so to speak " planet can only be in 1 alliance at any time, and we recommend that every single planet enters one, so they know what it is like". Thats blatantly saying ppl should join alliances. Fair go thats a valid statement. Now the question is HOW?
Ppl in this thread have mentioned that alliance will evolve adapt to the changes~ thats understandable alliances have done that before, and i believe alliances will continue to do so. So given that basis some ppl will leave becuase of the changes, but realistically most will stay. Given that the alliance limit is 150, the top alliances might not need to trim that much. I also notice that um the limit is 150 doesn't say they need to recruit up to that #...elitest groups could form. But thats not hte main problem. The main problem is the newbies tryin to join alliances. No CHANCe in hell the newbies in my current gal and next rds gals will make Ely, WP, Eclipse, Oly, Rah etc....etc......... Better chance in the afore mentioned alliances Rock, NewDawn, Templar blahblah. These alliances will accept new memebrs till they reach their cap and then kaboom where do the newbies go? Create their own? join wings organiased by the newbie teaching allainces? or just dun bother cause its too hard to gather a core in a game. Alliances are hard work boys and girls and newbies have little patience. The newbie teaching alliances currently have no limit to who and wat to accept, but by doin this they will and guess wat who else is goin to shoulder the responsibility. Half the newbies will drop of the game if they feel it is no fun and that will only happen when they can't get into an alliance. And taht is a HUGE possibility.

just out of curiosity silva, why in gods name you still got "DTA" in your signature?. You were in the DTA "farmplanet/defenceplanet" alliance in what, round 5?

secondly, use ENTER

[JonnyBGood]

To be honest I must say I'm in favour of this. What most people fail to realise (from what I read here) is that Planetarion is dead. The old format is gone and will not be coming back. The concepts were no longer revolutionary, other games no longer steal their ideas off us, the alliances (in spirit and community if not in name) have become too constant. Basically we're playing the same game we always did, and people are leaving because it's just not as exciting as it once was. Surprisingly when I played nobody told me to stay awake half the night or organise defence or any of a wide range of other things. I did it because it was fun and because I wanted to. This is the first solid step I have seen made by spinner and co to accept life, move on and build another game played in the spirit that we once had.

From a certain angle I can see why some people view this as the death knell of Planetarion. And to be quite honest I agree. The game currently being proposed is radically different from what I started playing in round 2. The emphasis must be placed on the fact that round 10 will be a completely new game. Planetarion over the last few rounds has had many problems. Due to the shrinking database the impact of a small group dominating the rankings has a far more stagnative effect than it did during r3. Last round everything and everyone was hit. In the days of 150k planets this was physically impossible. Paytoplay shrunk the community and the dynamics of the game we had for four rounds changed and lost the spark that made it really fun.

In my opinion the only interesting thing about PA since r4 has been the alliance situation and the way alliances adapted and changed. The community grabbed the game and what you have is what you made of it. This is Planetarion's attempt to change so that what you get is something different, something new and hopefully something fun again.

Reading over what has been said so far by the PAteam I can see that things will be different. Alliances will no longer have the ability to stagnate an entire universe by themselves(presuming the advertising campaign works and we can stay at approximately the same level as we have for r9.5). I can envisage a number of conflicts being fought at different levels expanding up eventually into a conflict for the number one position. One hundred and fifty players is not too small and not too big I think. A significant question will exist over the ability to change alliances during each round, possibly a cost factor or a limited number of changes could be introduced.

We will see how, or indeed if, this will work during the pre-r10 beta. Finally, for the first time in what seems like an age, I am moved to congratulate the pateam. Even if this does not work I admire anyone's attempts to acknowledge their problems and work to eliminate them. Whether this will work or not will depend, in the end, on the community. It's no longer the game we played, it's something different. I hope it's downright ****ing stunning. I hope I can play again and really enjoy myself. I hope it works. It's our game though. Planetarion is asking for something back from the community I suppose.

[Kal]

Originally posted by WipeOut
My personal perception is that (and forgive me here Nadar) making planetarion more complex will give it the edge it needs to win the competition with other simular online games. It is still far from EVE's complexity, but it is at least worth the challenge, and that is, at least for intellectual prospective players, an incentive to join the community and play the game. If one finds this game too hard to comprehend, because of some changes in traveltime and alliance influence, I suggest you should perhaps go back and kill aliens in Doom or any other brainless 'shoot'em up'.

I personally welcome the changes made, especially as this gives people a new challenge, it 'forces' players to meet new people due to having the need to switch alliance if their alliance prooves incapable of comprehending and adapting the new situation.

Some people seem to be reluctant, others a bit scared, as they see their political position within this game on the gamble, they fear that they would suddenly loose their 'power' and 'fame'...

It is totally up to those people, wether or not they maintain their position within the game. It is all about adapting the changes in your (alliance's) advantage. And if one gives it a little bit of thought, it will come clear that the situation is different, but certainly not less attractive, and not impossible to use in your alliance's advantage.

I think this is just what planetarion needs.

something has gone wrong here... I agree with u wipey

[Domin]

who bothers to play if it gonna take a day to reach the target and a day to come home?

you said you would make the game more n00b friendly but this will make even experinced players got nuts.

neither do i see the point.

Spinner do everything he can to make people not joining alliances.

Also the integrated alliance thingys always been useless and they will always be cause alliance can figure out an much more effective way.

ALWAYS.

And do he seriouse think the jumpgate ever will be used??

[Seth Mace]

There has been a lot of discussion here and its good to see the good opinions of so many people. I would say that there arent many replys which are wrong but i do feel a lot of the pro-changers, are avoiding the most important and negative issue.

Which is why rip apart the current collection of alliance communities?

Any1 who suggests you can find ways around this is very naive and to say its the "old timers" who are the problem in PA is laughable! I know many command staff who have been around since r1/r2 and they excel at making new members feel welcome and helping newer players with training ect. Some of you seem to think the veterans HATE n00bies and arent willing to make new friends.. like wtf? It was veterans who taught me all i know, it was veterans who showed me how to play the game to the best of my abilities.(which arent very high but nm;P)

Yes, good alliances will adapt but not in the capacity they have worked hard and long for and not with the community that makes the alliance, what is is.

The whole point of r10 is to give pa a total makeover, bring in lots of new players and help prevent stagnation and blocking ect. We all want a massive battelfield, with dynamic and unpredicatable politics - we want a war game which inspires our dedication even further!

However, there is NO point in changing things, just for the sake of being different and "cutting edge". When was the last major change any professional game/sport did? We are playing PA because we like playing PA but again, dont get me wrong i think a lot of what is suggested sounds great.

But to state the main worry again, why put alliance communities at great risk, with the introduction of Forced politics (ie, having to pick from your few local alliances - if u even get an option of joining).

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Domin
who bothers to play if it gonna take a day to reach the target and a day to come home?

You're over-reacting, and misunderstanding the idea. How does "a few extra ticks at maximium" become 24 hours each way? Traversing the furthest points of the universe would probably be 2 or 3 extra ticks at most, not a "day". Calm yourself down.

And do he seriouse think the jumpgate ever will be used??

You've misread what he wrote entirely, try reading it again.

[Seth Mace]

Yer cochese, as u say maybe we are all just overeacting but i do think with good reason. IF the added eta for long distances, is 4-5ticks higher then Alliance/BG defence TT, well goodbye universal alliances and welcome to a game with like 4-7 mini games inside.

Which im sure it will be:/

[Cochese]

That's partially the point I believe, though it won't turn out like Spinner hopes.

The traveltime was meant to localize alliances, an effort to fragment the current alliances to a point where they aren't effective...and through this, totally new alliances would spring up on the regional level, making several "mini-games" as you say, instead of 1 game where if you die, you're dead (ie, last round, politically). These alliances obviously change from round to round, due to random galaxies, and the new traveltime. Good for PA? Sure, in theory.

However, I don't believe this will be the case at all. Alliances have proven able to adapt--and often with alarming efficiency--to any changes Spinner has thrown at them, and I don't believe round 10 will be any different.

There's undoubtedly much more we still don't know, so it's very hard yet to form an opinion.

[Faberius]

The main thrust of my argument is that this is nothing more than an inconvienence to alliance commanders and that the time being used to code this should be used in more efficient fashions(like gameplay). Peripherals do not a game make. It only results in more logistical problems which will result in battlegroups being the primary affiliation of players, with alliances being secondary. A bit more decentralization, but there will still be blocking since alliances will control the general EA of those bg's.

In fact, this might accelerate the stagnation process for several players if one group dominates a region, the game for the nonmembers in that area is over, although perhaps not for their collegues in another. Although that's more of a time travel argument and is a bit more speculative.

NewDawn has over 100 members, now I'll admit that that could be significantly culled in order to give us a room to manoever around any arbitrary(and unnatural) limit, we would not be able to take any new players that weren't already extremely well connected. Although I'm not sure many new players would find a home here anyways...

To Plantman:

What makes you think that just because they are called alliances in planetarion that they would be really alliances? There is nothing stopping an alliance from continuing to coordinate its community and logistical aspect on irc, but branching out into "alliances" for the purposes of the game. Or vice-versa.

Your argument is rediculous. Aren't we already seeing "the better organized, and more elite factions of such organizations quickly capitalizing on their advantages"? Shouldn't planetarion rather be catering to more casual players, instead of continuing in the reward only the best, stagnation for the rest?

I think you're drinking a bit too much sea water.

[Gerbie]

Alliances aiming to win have no interest in letting other alliances dominate regionally. They will form a powerblock massive enough to dominate the entire universe. This is comparable to what you get if you have 10 parallels in a payed priv galaxy universe (which means improved ingal defence compared to current round).

Unless no-one blocks ofc.
Option 1: some alliances may think they are l33t enough to set up local attacks for their own members (perhaps together with one or 2 more alliance). Their target pick will be reduced because there will not be that many galaxies without too many non-allied planets.
Option 2: a combination of BGs and defence-focussing alliances (because 150 is too small to set up local attacks for their members). Average players without the proper contacts will not be able to join the locally dominant BG, nor will new players be. This BG will turn into a dragon leaving the medium and smaller alliances (more in activity then in size) to be roidfarms. Thus leading to localized stagnation.

[AlbinoSquirrel]

If this feature breaks apart tons of the old entrenched alliances and drives off some of the hardcore alliance players, it'll be one of the best moves EVER made by the creators.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by MikeHunt

Titans had some fairly good players,but most their "power" lies in forum trolls like mad,parracidda,and scouse.

This made my day. If I could have a larget sig, I would have included it.

[Scorpio]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Community is a great aspect of this game, even though people could very well argue that this community is not the greatest anymore I believe that is certainly a part of powerblocks. Alliances like Xanadu and Fury have been opposed to eachother for rounds on end, it would be hard for people like germania and scorpio to get along well after such a period of fighting eachother.

We've been working peacefully together since the start of round 8
As have many other Xanadians

But I agree that breaking the communities within the community isn't a good idea.

[Seth Mace]

If this feature breaks apart tons of the old entrenched alliances and drives off some of the hardcore alliance players, it'll be one of the best moves EVER made by the creators

Can you explain how this is good for alliance communities? I mean, isn't it these alliance communities which have kept PA going through the bad times and enriched the good times?

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by Seth Mace
Can you explain how this is good for alliance communities? I mean, isn't it these alliance communities which have kept PA going through the bad times and enriched the good times?

For PA to grow again, the dominant communities should take in new members, by somehow forcing them to work together with non-community members.

The idea is that elements of different communities will need to cooperate closely and that communities will allow players to enter which had no previous conection to this community. This hope will be in vane I fear. Communities will work together, but as a powerblock.

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Seth Mace
Can you explain how this is good for alliance communities? I mean, isn't it these alliance communities which have kept PA going through the bad times and enriched the good times?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No offence, but that has to be the single stupidest post by a command level person on these boards EVER. Powerblocks were caused by alliance communities. The game mechanics until now haven't changed much since round 1, so why don't we have the political fluidity they had then? Because of alliance communities. To be honest entrenched alliance communities have been a directly contributing factor to the bad times.

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Faberius
To Plantman:

What makes you think that just because they are called alliances in planetarion that they would be really alliances? There is nothing stopping an alliance from continuing to coordinate its community and logistical aspect on irc, but branching out into "alliances" for the purposes of the game. Or vice-versa.

Your argument is rediculous. Aren't we already seeing "the better organized, and more elite factions of such organizations quickly capitalizing on their advantages"? Shouldn't planetarion rather be catering to more casual players, instead of continuing in the reward only the best, stagnation for the rest?

I think you're drinking a bit too much sea water.

I don't understand what you are getting at in the first paragraph.

As to the second, no we're not seeing the better organized, and more elite factions of powerblocks and super-alliances rise to the top. This occured somewhat in r9, with ET defeating WE, and I could certainly make a case for it in r6, but in most rounds, power-blocks stick together, and large alliances don't fragment. With only a few exceptions, Xan, Legion, and Fury all maintained coherence for many rounds. WP and Ely, probably the 2 single biggest alliances (memberwise) of today, have similarly maintained their size without suffering major schizms. In a situation where there is a 150 member cap, an alliance of 400 members is forced to become a powerblock, in essense. This is going to give each one of those 150 member "wings" a great deal of autonomy, and a sense of identity....partly because their best chances of defense will come from each other. If one of them pulls ahead, it will be more likely to use its organizational advantages to win solo than it will be to stick with its sister wings, at least more likely than it is to do so now. Now if this 150 member group is able to stagnate the round, then so be it, but I'd rather see a round be stagnated by 150 people than by 500-1500. At least then you can be pretty sure they deserve to win.

I've advocated PA catering to the more casual player for about 2.5 years, but they clearly don't want to do that. The second best thing is this: ensuring that the people who win the round are the best players, and not the best at constructing behemoth power-blocks.

Finally, it's lake-water, not sea-water, and I'm not on it yet. ;-)

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
I've advocated PA catering to the more casual player for about 2.5 years, but they clearly don't want to do that. The second best thing is this: ensuring that the people who win the round are the best players, and not the best at constructing behemoth power-blocks.

Finally, it's lake-water, not sea-water, and I'm not on it yet. ;-)

Alliances will see their members distributed over the universe. This will force them to block with others to get a decent local position. How will this then ensure the people who win the round are not the best at constructing power-blocks?

[Seth Mace]

No offence, but that has to be the single stupidest post by a command level person on these boards EVER.

Lol, do i get a badge?

Powerblocks were caused by alliance communities.

Lol, i thought they were caused by Alliance leaders allying with other alliance leaders, cos they were afraid other alliance leaders, were doing the same? Such a sweeping statement, hey, does that mean i can say thats the most stupid sweeping statment ive ever heard on these boards by some guy?

The game mechanics until now haven't changed much since round 1, so why don't we have the political fluidity they had then? Because of alliance communities. To be honest entrenched alliance communities have been a directly contributing factor to the bad times.

You clearly couldnt even explain something which i "obviously" didnt understand. Just incase u aint getting my post, i wasn't asking because i didnt understand, i just wanted somebody to break the arguement down so i could pick out some flawed issues.

ie..

Originally posted by Gerbie
For PA to grow again, the dominant communities should take in new members, by somehow forcing them to work together with non-community members.

The idea is that elements of different communities will need to cooperate closely and that communities will allow players to enter which had no previous conection to this community. This hope will be in vane I fear. Communities will work together, but as a powerblock.

Alliances dont recruit when they are bloated but when they are recruiting, vouchment through friendlys in galaxys (including new players) does happen, especially in recruit wings.

It seems as if round10 is trying to force ingame relationships at the expense of current ones. Who exactly is gonna benifit from this? Current Alliances communities? Round 10 alliance communities? What happens to r10 AC's after another fresh start in round11 (assuming its restart of r10 in some form)?

[Supernova9]

Originally posted by Seth Mace
Lol, i thought they were caused by Alliance leaders allying with other alliance leaders, cos they were afraid other alliance leaders, were doing the same? Such a sweeping statement, hey, does that mean i can say thats the most stupid sweeping statment ive ever heard on these boards by some guy?

Yes, they were caused by the alliance leaders. The same alliance leaders, round after round. Those same alliance leaders, driven to fulfil the wishes of their members. Again, the same members round after round. These members that sat in their alliances, and made grudges against other alliances. Take Fury/Xanadu, and the grudges there. As a result, they were always on opposite sides, setting the scene for blocks.

You clearly couldnt even explain something which i "obviously" didnt understand. Just incase u aint getting my post, i wasn't asking because i didnt understand, i just wanted somebody to break the arguement down so i could pick out some flawed issues.

My apologies, hope the above gets my point across better.

[Nadar]

Originally posted by WipeOut
My personal perception is that (and forgive me here Nadar) making planetarion more complex will give it the edge it needs to win the competition with other simular online games. It is still far from EVE's complexity, but it is at least worth the challenge, and that is, at least for intellectual prospective players, an incentive to join the community and play the game. If one finds this game too hard to comprehend, because of some changes in traveltime and alliance influence, I suggest you should perhaps go back and kill aliens in Doom or any other brainless 'shoot'em up'.

I know what you mean, but for the peoples who have never played Planetarion before it will be veeeery hard understanding. It's easy for the experienced player to say: "Ah, about time, this sounds cool". But the n00bs are probably like: "wtf?"

The changes about alliance limit on 150 members are good, but I do honestly think that the lower ETA from 1:2 to 1:5 than from 1:2 to 5:7 is really unnecessary and superfluous. Say, if a guy invites his m8 to play planetarion, then they end up in each end of universe. Then no-one can defend him. Imho I believe that this is gonna be a great step towards PA's death

[Seth Mace]

Yes, they were caused by the alliance leaders. The same alliance leaders, round after round. Those same alliance leaders, driven to fulfil the wishes of their members. Again, the same members round after round. These members that sat in their alliances, and made grudges against other alliances. Take Fury/Xanadu, and the grudges there. As a result, they were always on opposite sides, setting the scene for blocks.

Yes, i fully agree with the "same alliances leaders" but i doubt the majority of memberbase's have a say in the politics. Even so, should this mean all alliance communities should be punished? Im sure there are other ways around this issue?

Historic grudges are interesting though, christ just look at humanitys war history and past grudges are what caused most if not all of the great battles!

I think one real radical solution would be to just stop planets hiding, let every1 see what alliance every1 else is and that will surely throw up some interesting politics. This could be done ingame but hey, i aint really thought this through so feel free to flame me over that.

My apologies, hope the above gets my point across better.

Np, i tend to think people assume certain things im thinking about, so it was prolly easy to misread

[[i2k]Xy]

Originally posted by hydridia
ParraCida

you got alot of time on your hands?

^^

[Mav]

Would it not work for the members to be organised into groups, and each group concentrate on a certain part of the universe?

That's what i think would be the best bet, but im not really a tactician, thoughts anyone?

[Seth Mace]

Yer mav, thats what most would try to do but then u run into problems of differences in possible Launch times and activity/dedication. Not to mention 1-5 in one part and 20-30 in another, not very balanced so then you get the smaller groups, looking towards the bigger alliances local to them.

Then thats when your alliance community begins to tear:*(

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by Gerbie
Alliances will see their members distributed over the universe. This will force them to block with others to get a decent local position. How will this then ensure the people who win the round are not the best at constructing power-blocks?

It will force them to ally in a fluid fashion, not to block. Attempting to apply block politics in this sort of environment isn't going to work, imo. If you do, you'll get eaten alive by alliances that have made more fluid deals.

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by Seth Mace

Then thats when your alliance community begins to tear:*(

Oh get off your "alliance community" bull****.

The "alliance community" for the top level alliances consists mainly of egotistic wankers stroking each other, making friends with other egotistic wankers, trying to consolidate their precious position while kicking the legs out from their competitors - even if they're all on the same "side".

The smaller community based alliances like IPC are probably less like these, but the upper crust of every alliance is a closed system. The cool people in leadership remain cool, their alliances masses remain outside and have very little effect on the leadership.

It's a completely entrenched and closed system. There's no new blood. Most HC in this game of any major alliance have been playing for ages and have been command rank for at least half their PA playing time.

The game needs this shakeup, it needs to destroy the status quo. You're not going to lose real friends because of this. You're not going to lose your entire alliance community. That's sheer idiocy. Adapt, overcome, meet new people and retain ties to the ones you want to remain in contact with. That's life.

[N0VA]

I think that what a lot of you are actually scared of is a reintroduction of an ages old concept in Planetarion ... Dynamic Politics. As it is right now, every round either before or slightly after it starts gets factionalized into blocks. 9.5 is a slight exception, since no blocks of yet have emerged to dominate the round - but the same idea can be seen in the alliances who routinely cooperate on parallel hits. The reason that this is problematic is that it binds two or more groups together - none of them able to end the relationship out of fear they could not find a better one, or out of fear of an already better one.

The reason this is possible is because when one block/entity/cooperative/whateveryouwanttocallitinround9.5 starts pulling ahead, their large planets and battlegroups can exert their influence across the universe. The main thrusts can then be reinforced by the fodder/flak/allthoselittleguysinyouralliancethatthinktheyareveryimportantbutusuallyarejusttheretotakecraptargets onraidsandcoveralltheelitetop10playerswhoneverholdanyslotsopenfordefensesotheycankeepupwithalltheoth erselfishtwats.

This style of play will become a lot harder though, because the elite battle groups etc will only be able to work together efficiently if they are formed from planets in the same regions, or if they multi their way into such a position. Even still, when they do become dominant in their corner of the universe, they will have a much more difficult time dictating what happens elsewhere, since all of them will have a larger eta.

So what benefits can we see in the new changes? First and foremost, it limits the effects of cheating to stack clusters/parallels. Even if a bunch of cheaters end up controlling their quadrant of the universe, it becomes a lot harder for them to use that to gain leverage elsewhere.

Secondly, it raises the importance of all members of an alliance ... not just the so called elite. In order for an alliance to go for victory, they need to have strong planets throughout the universe, not just in key strongholds.

Thirdly, it makes it more difficult for power blocks to dominate the universe, because the overwhelming with numbers approach is rather unwieldy ... either you have different landing times, or you tip your hand when the outer clusters start launching very early.

Finally, it causes alliances to have reasons to work with others for shorter periods of time. When you need help strengthening a certain quadrant, you cannot rely on your couple of allies to be strong there - you need to have the ability to work with others in that area.

In summation - the new changes to Planetarion I think will be of extreme benefit, because they take the outcome of the game out of the hands of alliance hc's, and allows the average player to play a role in it. They allow motivated players to strengthen their role in their section of the universe without relying upon the elite members in their alliance coming through on periodic parallel/cluster purges. Essentially, they end the dull routine that Planetarion has largely become, and reward cleverness, adaptiveness, and overall political astuteness. If these attributes do not appeal to you, click Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Games -> Solitaire ... this is more suited to you.

[Backbone]

I think all the whining itself proves that the decision is a good one

(sorry but all the good arguments have already been said, pld to all)

[skipper]

The alliance thing can be solved by allowing the best players in and making that before the end of the r9.5 there will be time for the bad apples make new or join other alliance.

About new players without alliances, there will most likely be a lot new alliances where to join. And theres always the galmates around you to help you in the start.

Huge changes are by far needed, but like many things the only way to know if they are any good is by trying them. So imo this is a good turn.

P.S. I didnt have enough time to read whole thread or the spinners announcement or ch-log which this thread is about so try to understand me

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by skipper
The alliance thing can be solved by allowing the best players in and making that before the end of the r9.5 there will be time for the bad apples make new or join other alliance.

Yup, those who think themselves to be l33t will not want to have anything to do with the rest.

[Seth Mace]

Oh get off your "alliance community" bull****.

Rofl, it's nice to see you trying to drop this down to a personal level, yer nice1!

The "alliance community" for the top level alliances consists mainly of egotistic wankers stroking each other, making friends with other egotistic wankers, trying to consolidate their precious position while kicking the legs out from their competitors - even if they're all on the same "side".

Lol, looks like somebody has had a bad experience in PA before:P

The smaller community based alliances like IPC are probably less like these, but the upper crust of every alliance is a closed system. The cool people in leadership remain cool, their alliances masses remain outside and have very little effect on the leadership.

It's nice to see you judging EVERY alliance on the few you have experience with.

It's a completely entrenched and closed system. There's no new blood. Most HC in this game of any major alliance have been playing for ages and have been command rank for at least half their PA playing time.

I know what you just said about new blood is total Sh1t, i know for a FACT you dont have the slightest idea how alliances evolve in order to surivive and this very much includes promotions of fresh blood.

The game needs this shakeup, it needs to destroy the status quo. You're not going to lose real friends because of this. You're not going to lose your entire alliance community. That's sheer idiocy. Adapt, overcome, meet new people and retain ties to the ones you want to remain in contact with. That's life.

Read a few of the replies which describe how the TT "could" effect current alliance communities.

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by Seth Mace
Rofl, it's nice to see you trying to drop this down to a personal level, yer nice1!

That wasn't even close to personal.

Lol, looks like somebody has had a bad experience in PA before:P

Lolz haha

PA is a bad experience in general.

It's nice to see you judging EVERY alliance on the few you have experience with.

The "few" I have experience with? I've worked with or against practically EVERY alliance in this game at some point. Call me arrogant, but my history is a hell of a lot more impressive than yours.

I know what you just said about new blood is total Sh1t, i know for a FACT you dont have the slightest idea how alliances evolve in order to surivive and this very much includes promotions of fresh blood.

And where do you get the new blood? Do you openly recruit? Or do you only accept vouched members who have playing experience? Do you have a recruiting wing to weed through the new players? That's not fresh blood, that's recycling old blood.

Read a few of the replies which describe how the TT "could" effect current alliance communities.

Could? So you're basing your argument on a possibility? That's rather odd, why don't you spend less time whining about it on here and more time building community infrastructure to survive this horrible possibility.

You appear to simply be afraid of the potential that it'll break up your friendships with people in your alliance. That's really, really unlikely. There's absolutely nothing that'll stop you from sharing that lovely IRC server with your friends, even if you're not in the same region of space in the game next round. Gasp, it might even lead you to make new friends. Stop being so afraid of change. The injection of a bit of chaos will do no end of good to this game.

[Seth Mace]

Yer i was thinking arrogant, so its nice you said it first:P

The "few" I have experience with? I've worked with or against practically EVERY alliance in this game at some point. Call me arrogant, but my history is a hell of a lot more impressive than yours.

Is it just me who thinks that statement is quite astonishing? When have i ever implied my history means the words i type hold more weight then some1 elses? But hey, well done to your achievments in planetarion, i am truely honoured to have my name on the same page as yours \o/ ;P

And where do you get the new blood? Do you openly recruit? Or do you only accept vouched members who have playing experience? Do you have a recruiting wing to weed through the new players? That's not fresh blood, that's recycling old blood.

This is very confusing imo. I thought one of the reasons for recruit wings was to train up new blood? From my personal experience, a large proportion of recruits each round are new players to the alliance scene.

Could? So you're basing your argument on a possibility? That's rather odd, why don't you spend less time whining about it on here and more time building community infrastructure to survive this horrible possibility.

Its a discussion thread, we all have every right to raise any issue whatsoever we want. There are many players who have confirmed they are worried too!

You appear to simply be afraid of the potential that it'll break up your friendships with people in your alliance.

Simply! I've been apart of a command team who have worked for many rounds to get where we are now, you would feel the same way if you were in our shoes!

That's really, really unlikely. There's absolutely nothing that'll stop you from sharing that lovely IRC server with your friends, even if you're not in the same region of space in the game next round.

You see, thats one of the main concerns, if the members leave they wont be sharing anything with us apart from a casual netgamers "hey there, how u doing?".

Gasp, it might even lead you to make new friends. Stop being so afraid of change.

Can i be your friend.. wait no, i havent thought through how adding an extra friend to my "1337 group", may effect my friendship with another in my "1337 group".. sorry, i've no room, i cant be your friend albino;(

Like wtf?

The injection of a bit of chaos will do no end of good to this game.

I agree with this bit but not at the expense of.. well im sure u catch the "drift"